Part 2: Any words of wisdom?

[All_Out_of_Sync]

Mod Note:  Part 1 of this thread is here   https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339381.0;all

It's been three weeks since my last post and all I can say is buckle up...

After I told my wife I filed, the next two days were hell. As I previously described, she was hysterical, begging and very distraught.

Then, out of the blue, things shifted in a monumental way. On the evening of the third day, my wife told me about something that happened to her years before I met her.

She explained that in the weeks before D-day(day I told her about the divorce filing), she had tried to tell me about her realization of how the past events impacted her and what she was beginning to work on. There was a specific event she attended that flipped a light switch for her, it made her realize there was something to address in her past.

That evening, she asked for time to "work on herself" before pursuing the divorce.  At first blush, this felt like manipulation.

As you can imagine, I was hyper skeptical.

So was my support network.
So was my therapist.
So was my lawyer.

However, I honestly get the surprise of the divorce filing setting her into a tailspin. I completely blindsided her, intentionally to protect myself. So even I can understand why this came out after she had sometime to catch her breath, so to speak.

As I have mentioned before, I journal regularly and have some corroborating evidence, beyond just her words, that she was indeed trying to get this out on the open. I have enough independent information to believe the prior weeks claim.

The disclosure is apparently something she has never discussed with anyone and kept a secret since it occured. It was a prolonged period of time and occurred in a timeframe that would explain the formative impact to her behavior. I know some general details of the timeframe that I know this is not a complete fabrication.

I had made my decision and over the two days of meltdown, nothing she promised to do differently in the future made a dent in my resolve...however, this was a fresh perspective on WHY so much of this has occurred. Something rings true to me.

I agreed to not push things forward with my attorney, to stay in a holding pattern to figure out what she is asking for.

Over the last three weeks, she had shared a lot of details with me, answered questions and kept an even tone throughout almost daily conversations about difficult topics. She has been speaking to a new therapist. This person is someone that I know of, respect and deals in the area my wife needs to address. This is not about fixing our marriage, it is about her learning how to process the past.  Truly, regardless of where she & I end up, I hope she does the work necessary to get healthy for her own sake!

As I am trying to make sense of what is going on, I have been reading through the research on the similarities between BPD & cPTSD...it is incredible. I have read van der Kolk's The Body Keeps the Score and what she is explaining fits into what could explain her behavior.

My wife was never diagnosed BPD, I just know from reading there are a lot of behaviors that fit the bill...but maybe the origin of those behaviors could be explained with the trauma of the past?

So in summary...

First off, I know I filed. I know there is a case to be made for putting my head down and pushing forward. I know this pause could be a huge mistake.

I have not withdrawn the petition. I am continuing to look at the situation and evaluate. Honestly, can last another month or two as we figure out a treatment plan with the therapist. Especially with how even things have been at home and in the conversations we have had over very difficult topics.

I realize I sound like I am waffling, maybe I am. Maybe I am a sucker. Maybe I will be right back in the same position after six months or a year. If I can hold my own boundaries and self care, am better off by understanding this information and saying I tried to give her time to heal? Maybe that is enough?

Had anyone dealt with cPTSD in conjunction with uBPD? Treatment options? Initial duration? Frequency?

I know the therapy is only as good as her desire to engage...I am in a position to believe, prior to D-day, she wanted to start addressing this topic. That makes me think she wants to get better for herself, not just to keep me from the divorce route.

This has been a wild ride. I don't have hope things will be different yet but I think there is enough that I have a reason to believe there could be hope...

Thoughts? Opinion? Reality check from prior experience?

[CoherentMoose]

People can and do change.  From my reading in here, the BPD must truly desire change and do the work necessary to change...for years.  It's hard work.  Maybe for the rest of their lives.  You seem to be in a good position at this point to either continue to divorce or find a good place in the process to go on pause while you assess if the desire to change is real.  What would be the downside(s) to putting the divorce on hold?  Another option is complete the divorce and consider reconciling at some time in the future if her efforts at addressing significant behavioral change succeed.  People divorce and re-marry all the time.  I guess the trade-offs are the downsides (dangers?) to pausing the divorce process versus the risk her apparent desires to change are a ploy...or they fail in the long term.  It's a difficult decision.  Good luck.  jdc

[MeandThee29]

As I am trying to make sense of what is going on, I have been reading through the research on the similarities between BPD & cPTSD...it is incredible. I have read van der Kolk's The Body Keeps the Score and what she is explaining fits into what could explain her behavior.

Studies have shown a strong correlation between BPD and PTSD. Not every therapist buys into cPTSD, but trauma can very much be a driver. I believe that the final time mine left was very much driven by PTSD.

Our mutual therapist (a clinical psychologist with a speciality in trauma) initially said a year living apart to see if he would follow treatment before reconciliation was on the table. I did some work for her some months ago and of course we talked. At that point more had transpired, and she told me that she no longer recommended that. She said that he had passed the point of no return and to let it go. I didn't press her on that because she had to leave at that point.

My lawyer pretty much predicted how the divorce process was going to go to a T because he's handled this sort of thing a lot. Too bad it's twice as painful and horridly expensive as it could have been.

[ForeverDad]

Childhood abuse was a part of my spouse's youth.  I suspect her mother was a waif Borderline and her stepfather an abuser Narcissist.  They fed each other's dysfunctional needs.

Well, when I became a father she started comparing me to her abusive SF.  She criticized me anytime I was late, saying her SF was always early.  She had always said her SF came into her family when she was 3 years old.  You can guess, we separated when our son was 3 years old.  We had been married over a decade before having our child, yet she could not counterbalance that positive history against her childhood fears.

Did she have PTSD?  I don't doubt it.  But I had to deal with the reality of what was happening.  The marriage was imploding despite my best efforts.  I could not risk sabotaging myself by feeling sorry for her.  I was an adult, she too was an adult.  I had no choice but to place myself and our child as the highest priorities.  However, during the months of separation before I filed for divorce I did attempt to see if she wanted to reconcile.  She refused and so we divorced.

Do be careful of promises to change.  You can trust only long term actions.  BPD and the other acting out PDs are exceedingly difficult to overcome and as already noted by others will take years - or a lifetime - of effort to get on and stay on a path toward recovery.

The comment that you could divorce now and perhaps remarry if she radically improved her behaviors makes sense.  It would take a long time to determine whether any claimed insights would make the marriage reasonably healthy.  There's real risk that halting the divorce now could sabotage you if you decided to divorce at a later time.  That is, she would have time to maneuver herself into a better position to come out on top.

[anonymous_non-BP]

Just want to say thank you for the entire thread. I'm a few months behind you on the divorce trail but very similar situation and, no doubt, similar reactions and responses from my hfBPD wife. So much of the story rings true. I try to stay focused on protecting my girls (three teen kids) and reaching the other side with the freedom and ability to live my life in peace...

[MeandThee29]

Just want to say thank you for the entire thread. I'm a few months behind you on the divorce trail but very similar situation and, no doubt, similar reactions and responses from my hfBPD wife. So much of the story rings true. I try to stay focused on protecting my girls (three teen kids) and reaching the other side with the freedom and ability to live my life in peace...

Yes, your comment about freedom and peace hit me. You cannot heal from these chaotic things without being apart from them. This is not something minor that you can work through in a few days while still being around each other.

When there are breaks in the divorce process, I put it out of my mind because there's truly nothing I can do. Some call that "radical acceptance." When you have something horrible that you can't control, you view it for what it is, and let it go. You say, "Yup, there it is. It is bad. I accept that, but I have what it takes to deal with it when I have to deal with it. Off I go..."

And then you build positive memories. It will get better.

[worriedStepmom]

I will caution you that we have had at least one member here whose spouse did all kinds of things to delay the divorce - only to find out later that the spouse was using that time not to reconcile, but to get a lawyer and a plan and managed to outmaneuver the one who filed.

It's possible your wife is doing that.
It's possible that she is distraught at losing you and looking for any way to keep you and this is a good excuse.
It's possible that she wants to deal with this trauma she has identified but it will get too hard and she'll return to her old pattern of avoidance - and BPD.
It's possible that she wants to deal with this trauma but she will never get beyond her BPD traits.
It's possible that she wants to deal with this trauma and, in a few years, she will have healed herself and not show BPD symptoms.

If it is the latter, know that this is not always a good thing for a relationship.  Part of BPD is the lack of identity and as she discovers who she really is, she might not be the person you originally fell in love with - and you might not be the kind of person she needs now.

In your shoes, I also felt that divorce was the absolute end of everything.  People couldn't get back together.  A few years after my divorce, I realized that wasn't true.  The pain and hurt does heal, and it is certainly possible for people to be able to reconnect and be together again in a much healthier way - because the old bad relationship was dead.

If you are going to pause the legal proceedings, you need a firm plan.  Give yourself a deadline -
How long will you keep them on pause?
What behaviors are deal-breakers (the divorce starts moving forward immediately)?
What behaviors do you need to see consistently to extend your deadline on the pause?

[livednlearned]

That evening, she asked for time to "work on herself" before pursuing the divorce. 

Does she agree she might have cPTSD or BPD?

[All_Out_of_Sync]

What would be the downside(s) to putting the divorce on hold? 

...

I guess the trade-offs are the downsides (dangers?) to pausing the divorce process versus the risk her apparent desires to change are a ploy...or they fail in the long term. 

JDC, thanks for your reply. I agree, people do change...if they are willing to commit to it. That is the difficulty of trying to measure this situation given she failed to muster the courage to tell me BEFORE I filed, even though I know she tried.

Now I am working through the questions, "How will I measure change? Is it enough to make me want to stay? Is it temporary or permanent?" Like you mentioned, is it a ploy or genuine? Either way will have bumps in the road. Therapy is HARD work if you do it right...I can't force her to stay engaged in the process.

I appreciate your questions, I'll answer the second one first, I don't like the idea of leaving reconciling/remarrying after a divorce. With 4 kids, I think that a clean break, finality is the clearest approach. (Sidenote, the kids don't even know this is going on yet.)

I guess the downside to putting the divorce on hold is that I lose my momentum for changing the situation get sucked back into the very old, very entrenched patterns I have been fighting to break free from for the last 3 years.

Right now I have a hard time believing I would backslide but these situations are slippery. I have done A LOT of work personally. I am more informed and mindful. I have expanded my support system (All of you are part of that, THANK YOU!) I am in therapy. My wife is in therapy. Is that enough to keep me grounded? I will have to wrestle through that...a thought as I type that, I don't have to answer that question as "till death do us part," I can answer it in the moment of "here and now." For now, I know I am grounded...then the question becomes, "How do I tell when I begin to lose my grounding?"

Fundamentally, I never wanted a divorce. All I have been asking is that she stop blaming me for everything and own her own behavior. This feels like the first time in our two decades of marriage that she is facing the reality of what happened to her and how she allowed those dynamics into our relationship.

Our mutual therapist (a clinical psychologist with a speciality in trauma) initially said a year living apart to see if he would follow treatment before reconciliation was on the table.
...

My lawyer pretty much predicted how the divorce process was going to go to a T because he's handled this sort of thing a lot. Too bad it's twice as painful and horridly expensive as it could have been.

MeandThee, thanks for the details on your situation, I am sorry to hear it was so painful and expensive. From where we sit, it can seem so unnecessary but I suppose that is the nature of PDs...so sad.

I haven't really thought very much about a separation. With kids, I don't really want to leave them in her care solely and I don't think she would willingly leave, hence my decision to file. ;)

My T has vouched for the abilities of the T my wife is now seeing. With very similar credentials to what you have described, clinical psychologist with a speciality in trauma, I am hopeful this is the right kind of person for her to be talking to. Maybe this therapeutic relationship will open the door to assessment work? Any suggestions for allowing the spouse room to get comfortable in the therapeutic relationship vs. pushing on the hard stuff? How did you find yourself balancing that?

The really good news in my opinion is our therapists are talking to eachother. They are in the same practice and we agreed to allow them to speak. I have been talking to my T for a while now and I truly think she "gets it." She is incredibly skeptical of what is going on and I think she will be a good advocate. I also feel that will give me a good view into my wife's process and work as well.

Childhood abuse was a part of my spouse's youth. 
...

We had been married over a decade before having our child, yet she could not counterbalance that positive history against her childhood fears.

...

The marriage was imploding despite my best efforts. 

...

Do be careful of promises to change.  You can trust only long term actions. 

ForeverDad, thank you. It sounds like you and I have had some very similar things to wrestle with. I very much appreciate your perspective as a father in a hard situation.

How early did your spouse tell you about the abuse? My wife told me I am the first person she has ever told about the trauma she experienced. I am convinced this hidden secret and the shame that came with it has been crippling to her...so sad. I was listening to a podcast from Therapist Uncensored (SO GOOD!) and they were talking about how shame that is not resolved in a healthy way can damage our prefrontal cortex and basically damages our ability to process information in a healthy way. It clicked for me in a BIG way.

From what you wrote, one of the differences in our stories is that my wife and I had our first child after just one year of marriage. There was not a lot of "positive history" to draw on. I have often thought, "if only we had a better base." Given what she has told me about her past trauma, I now doubt more time would have mattered. There are some pretty distorted patterns that would have been present no matter what.

"Do be careful of promises to change." THIS. 1,000%. The first two days of her begging/pleading for time to "just wait until the kids are out of the house" and "we can do things differently" fell on deaf ears. It didn't move the needle for me AT ALL. The strange part is that what she is asking for is to work on something that feels real and in the past. I guess it just goes back to what I wrote to JDC, "how do I begin to measure actions now?" I cannot give her a list of things I want to see, she would just check them off and say, "done."

Just want to say thank you for the entire thread. I'm a few months behind you on the divorce trail but very similar situation and, no doubt, similar reactions and responses from my hfBPD wife. So much of the story rings true. I try to stay focused on protecting my girls (three teen kids) and reaching the other side with the freedom and ability to live my life in peace...

Anon, sorry to hear you are on a similar journey. It is incredibly painful but I am glad you are here. These boards have been an incredible resource, keep posting!

My kids are in the teen years as well, I understand the desire to protect them. Be sure to figure out the self care routines that help you the most. Kids need you to be healthy physically/mentally/spiritually, for your sake AND theirs. Any favorite routines?

I will caution you that we have had at least one member here whose spouse did all kinds of things to delay the divorce

...

If it is the latter, know that this is not always a good thing for a relationship.

  ...

Give yourself a deadline - How long will you keep them on pause?
What behaviors are deal-breakers (the divorce starts moving forward immediately)? What behaviors do you need to see consistently to extend your deadline on the pause?

StepMom, thanks for such a thoughtful and detailed reply. Along with ForeverDad's caution about maneuvering, I appreciate your words of wisdom.

I know one of my personal weaknesses is giving the benefit of the doubt, hence two decades of an abusive marriage to a potentially BPD wife! I don't want my desire to be a decent guy to blind me to the danger. I asked my L to weigh in on the potential of my wife trying to manipulate me into a weaker position. What I was told is that if it comes to light that this is happening in order to game me, the courts will not look kindly on her behavior. That was reassuring.

In terms of doing the work and realizing she is a different person, I have voiced the potential that could mean she would come to the conclusion she doesn't want to be married anymore. At this point, I am ok with that as a possibility. It could mean a truly amicable end to a very troubled relationship and that strikes me as a win. Does that make sense?

In regards to what you wrote about firm plan, I am struggling to figure out what the lines in the sand are...she will need time to do the work therapy takes, it is a process. The things I need? Empathy, a willingness to understand/hear what I experience, an openness to allow me to call attention to her behavior, respecting my boundaries.

I don't feel like I can put a date on the calendar. My first thought is that "assessment informs treatment." If she were able to bring a treatment plan to me from her therapist that said something like, "I want to spend the next 6 months doing EMDR or learning DBT skills." That seems concrete but can I demand it? Won't thay sabotage it as my expectation, not necessarily her desire? Any thoughts on how to balance the desire to see change vs. the realization it will take time?

Does she agree she might have cPTSD or BPD?

LnL, that is a great question. The short answer is no.

She has voiced the push/pull dynamic of engulfment vs. abandonment she struggles with but not in those exact words. She continues to voice certain things that lead me to see the connection but she isn't there yet.

I know she feels my reading material has been hurtful to her (she snooped on my Amazon history). Instead of curiosity over what I found helpful, she has continued to resist any sort of label. Not that I have been pushing for a label, she just brings it up from time to time that she does not have a borderline personality. The interesting thing to me is her lack of curiosity as to what lead me to that reading material in the first place. She has not gotten to the point of being able to even ask the questions, let alone face a potential diagnosis.

Fingers crossed that her therapist will be asking the right questions...

THANK YOU ALL FOR THE FEEDBACK AND QUESTIONS, ALL OF THIS IS INCREDIBLY HELPFUL!

[ForeverDad]

How early did your spouse tell you about the abuse?

She and her younger sister were close.  But neither had told the other about their abuse.  SF had told them, separately, (1) if you don't let me do this then I'll do it to your sister and (2) if you tell then you'll get in trouble.  Even their mother had once told them, If you ever do something with my husband then I'll kick you out.

I faced a broom-wielding enraged SF a week before the wedding.  Six months married and periodically at night I faced an inexplicably sobbing spouse.  It wasn't long before her younger sister left home, her life sort of fell apart and they talked about their past, to some extent she outed it.  Strangely she was proud she held it together unlike her sister.  It all came apart in her 30's.

I still look at the past as rages of past child abuse.  But over the years she gradually morphed into more and more paranoid and borderline criticisms and suspicions.  Clashes with coworkers and bosses.  After our son was born then my family and many of our friends.  I was the last one rejected.  "Me and my son against the world."

"just wait until the kids are out of the house"

This is not just about the marriage.  This is about the family... what about the kids?  Their formative years are nearly past.  What they've experienced thus far has been a dysfunctional example of marriage.  If you don't start showing a good example of what the home ought to be, then what sort of person will they be when seeking their own adult relationships?  What sort of persons will they seek out?  Be or seek someone like their mother, aggressive, confrontational, demanding, whatever?  Be or seek someone like their father, appeasing, acquiescing, retreating, JADEing *, whatever?

JADE = Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain.  While JADE in itself isn't necessarily bad, it fails miserably when used with someone who won't listen or reasonably negotiate.

Your future now hinges on how well you can establish firm Boundaries of Behavior, especially with the other parent.  Ponder how you can set a positive parental example for your children going forward.  Will they henceforth see an empowered dad handling matters better, without cluelessly wilting before manipulations, coercions, guilting and demands?

The reality is that you can't live your life on her terms.  As long as you allow her that power over your life then she will feel empowered and enabled to control and dictate.  Have you read Henry Cloud's Boundaries?

Boundaries are for you, not her.  You already know you can't tell her what to do or not do.  You can't force her to do or not do something, your power is in your response.  However, what can and does work (though there are limits) is something like this... .
"If you do or don't do ___ then I will do or not do ___."

Examples:
If you start blocking me from our kids... .
... .then I will enforce the parenting schedule, in court if that's what it takes.
If you want extra time for ___... .
... .then I may allow it but with a trade for equivalent time for ___.

When done right "if... .then... ." is powerful.  It took me years to figure how to make boundaries such as these.

Oh, and since this would be a change to your behavior pattern, expect her to flame out with extinction bursts in attempts to make you retreat back into prior compliant, appeasing actions.  She may never fully accept that you will run your own life, but in time she ought to realize you're not acquiescing to her demands as before and not push your boundaries as relentlessly.

[livednlearned]

It might help to get clear about what you will and won't tolerate going forward.

How are you going to deal with behavior that violates your values and boundaries?

[worriedStepmom]

I don't feel like I can put a date on the calendar. My first thought is that "assessment informs treatment." If she were able to bring a treatment plan to me from her therapist that said something like, "I want to spend the next 6 months doing EMDR or learning DBT skills." That seems concrete but can I demand it? Won't thay sabotage it as my expectation, not necessarily her desire? Any thoughts on how to balance the desire to see change vs. the realization it will take time?

You need to have a date on the calendar.  Otherwise you are sentencing yourself to limbo - to potentially living in the exact same circumstances that led to file for divorce - for years, simply because you now have hope that she'll change.  If she isn't actually changing, there is no point in you still being there, because you have already decided the current situation is not good for you.

You don't have to tell her what criteria you will be evaluation on that date.  You don't even have to tell her that you will be evaluating things on a certain date.   Your T can help you put together a plan.  Say, W needs to have a treatment plan identified within 3 months.  W needs to follow the treatment plan, with 85% compliance, between months 3 and 6.  You need to see improvement in X and Y behavior by month 6 (and the improvement must be measurable).

As the others said, it is absolutely critical that you set boundaries and enforce them.  I would say it is also critical that your kids are in therapy and learning boundaries of their own. 

My parents didn't have personality disorders, but they had a baaad marriage.  Even though they divorced when were teens, we had internalized enough of those patterns that we both chose poorly and we both ended up divorced (with kids).  We're both trying hard to break the cycle by teaching the kids what relationships are supposed to look like.  Your setting boundaries on how you will be treated will help them see what is healthier - but it will also annoy your wife, because it is a big change in the dynamics.  This is why therapy is so critical.

[livednlearned]

I was thinking along the same lines as worriedStepmom. In another post you mentioned that she forbid you to use the calendar. In other posts, she yelled at you for ... making her yell? (In a sense).

What might interactions like that look like now that she is working on herself?

If the boundaries are not redrawn and your values are not made clear, how will you handle what were previously considered untenable for you?

I guess what I'm thinking is that her commitment to work on herself could go either way. For some, a diagnosis or disorder or childhood trauma is an explanation, not an excuse. Do you think your wife might see it that way? "I was traumatized and you bring this out in me so I get to behave badly. Plus I'm working on myself. You need to back off and accommodate me."

Is that a possibility?

[All_Out_of_Sync]

FD, thanks for sharing that part of your experience. Her story sounds tragic & really intense, heartbreaking. However that doesn't lessen the damage she didn't to you. I am glad you found your way through what I can imagine was incredibly hard process. Thank you for continuing to walk through this for people like me, your guidance is helpful beyond words.

I agree, boundaries are the key and the kids are paramount. Oddly for years, I told myself I couldn't leave them in her custody 50/50 so I had to stay, talk about bad boundaries! Through the work I have done with my T, I see how untrue that is...obviously to the point of filing. I have hardly arrived as it will continue to be a process for me but now that I am aware, it seems to be getting easier.

Now that she is owning her past, even going as far as owning "the dynamic she brought into our relationship", I feel like there is something to work with. I have described it in my sessions as "a reason to hope but not actual hope." My W has a lot of work to do, as some of you have said, it will be years if not a life time...

I have read Cloud's Boundaries and it really clicked for me. There were passages that felt as if they were written specifically for my situation and it was a very helpful book.

Out of that, setting my own limits has been instrumental in how I got to the place I was in filing the divorce papers. I remember a conversation over the summer when my wife was screaming at me to "make a decision" because she "couldn't keep living like this." I simply replied, "I have made my decision, I am here and talking to you. If you 'can't keep living like this' what are you going to do about it?" Honestly, that was a defining moment in realizing it was close to ending; she couldn't face reality, was expecting me to manage her feelings/situation and I didn't have to put up with it forever...

LnL, you are correct, I need clarity in how I set consequences to violations of my boundaries. The divorce was the ultimate consequence but it was never one I threatened her with...I never hung it over her head as, "comply or else." I have viewed that as antithetical to what I desired which was a relationship. I did not want to coerce certain behavior. That does not mean however that I cannot set expectations that there will be consequences if certain behaviors occur. I will have to think about how to clearly convey that. Thanks for the prompting.

The ultimate boundary of divorce is what I am wrestling through with my T currently. I am struggling to figure out how to measure behavior and where the line would be in going back to divorce if things do not change. If her work will take time to change, how do I give her that time and understanding while at the same time refusing to allow it to continue? Maybe as I type it out, that is my answer. I have to be allowed to confront it without dysregulation and her withdrawing. She has to agree to be called and stay in the struggle.

Well, it's the beginning of a thought at least...

Thank you both.

Just saw the two new comments about a date on the calendar, will be back...

[MeandThee29]

LnL, you are correct, I need clarity in how I set consequences to violations of my boundaries. The divorce was the ultimate consequence but it was never one I threatened her with...I never hung it over her head as, "comply or else." I have viewed that as antithetical to what I desired which was a relationship. I did not want to coerce certain behavior. That does not mean however that I cannot set expectations that there will be consequences if certain behaviors occur. I will have to think about how to clearly convey that. Thanks for the prompting.

My lawyer (who sometimes talks like a therapist) encouraged me to see divorce as step to get the three of us into a healthy place because he wouldn't take the steps need to deal with his destructive thinking and behaviors. So my focus is on us and what we need. Perhaps viewing it as a balance of what is best for all will help.

[All_Out_of_Sync]

wSM & LnL,

I was only thinking about it in terms of the impossibility of putting a date on her would impact her own healing/work/process and how unhelpful that would be. I had not considered the date as something I could set for myself... pretty telling how I discount my own needs, right?

I can certainly consider how I will put a target date on evaluating her progress, not with her but with the ability to measure progress in both objective ways (treatment plan, therapy sessions etc...) and subjective ways (ability to interact, communication patterns with me & with the kids, how home life feels etc...). That would be a great conversation piece with my therapist, especially since she has a window into my W's sessions through the collaborative approach with the other T.

That time will also give me the ability to evaluate if I am able to hold my own boundaries in the relationship.

I have not looked into therapy options for the kids/whole family but I agree, A LOT OF DAMAGE HAS BEEN DONE. I want to find ways to work through it with the kids so they do not find themselves in similar dysfunctional/disordered situations. The goal is for ALL OF US to come out more healthy through this process.

Oddly, interactions for the last 3 weeks have been calm and even. Part of me thinks this is "white knuckling it." I am sure there will be some bumps in the road but so far, she has owned her shame/blame lens. During one conversation she even gotten as far as to explain the pull of desiring closeness while at the same time the push away of being terrified of being too close. (Maybe the early stages of acknowledging abandonment/engulfment?) The crux of it is being heard and having my boundaries respected, not being dysregulated on by her feeling she is losing control/shame/blame. Again, all about my own response and boundaries, the things I can control.

For these last few weeks, it feels as if the exposure of the trauma has been more of an explanation than excuse. She has shared a desire to explore the impact it had on several areas. As of yet, she has not take the route of excusing behavior because of the past, only acknowledging both its influence and her inability to understand the extent until something brought it to the forefront over the summer.

I am glad she is talking to a T that deals with trauma regularly, I am sure the situation will ebb and flow...

[All_Out_of_Sync]

MeandThee29,

Your lawyer sounds like an incredible find in the midst of a difficult situation!

I think you are right, I will have go adjust my view in some ways to acknowledge the potential good that could come out of what i was previously committed to as my final boundary/exit.  Maybe a touch of radical acceptance for me to work on?

[ForeverDad]

I'm sorry it took so many years before the therapists even mentioned the possibility of acting-out PDs.  I had 3 long and frustrating sessions with a psychologist who was focused solely on me and my FOO (family of origin) and never once did I get feedback on all the incidents caused by my spouse I described.  However, in a brief call to a local hospital one weekend, the staff who answered the phone said, "Sounds more like a personality dysfunction."  That single clue helped me discover the world of PDs.

I had no other choice but to file for divorce.  I had not even a hint of my spouse addressing her part of the marriage's dysfunction.  You were in that situation too.  But now you've heard she wants to address some suppressed issues.  Whether that will make a difference, well, remains to be determined.

These crucial questions come to mind, considering that what your spouse does or does not do is largely out of your control...

• In the final analysis, what do YOU want as an outcome?
• Are you "done" with the marriage?
• How much of an improvement would it take for you to remain married?
• If you do decide to shelve the divorce, then once the teens are grown, would you still want to remain married?

I ask these because you could be pressured to feel obligated or guilted to try staying in the marriage with promised but minimal improvements.  Many of us have faced the FOG.
FOG = Fear, Obligation, Guilt.

Many of us here have experienced the claim of "now I'll fix this, give me another chance".  Is this sincere?  Or is it feigned (even unconsciously) because now there are big consequences?  (The old example of discerning between true tears of regret and versus crocodile tears for getting exposed/revealed.)

[All_Out_of_Sync]

FD, I can understand why you would say you didn't have a choice. What you described sounds exactly like my experiences in couples therapy. We tried twice, once over 5 years ago and again earlier this year. My wife flat out said, "his FOO is the root of all our problems" to both therapists. Ugh...

I found it so incredibly painful to have the desire to work on our own stuff but to have the conversation constantly twisted into something else. Her inability to own the her own part was enraging. I was at a loss. No one ever mentioned PDs to me. It was always misconstrued as 'communication problems.'

Through one of Brene Brown's books, I stumbled over a mention of attachment theory which lead me to neurosis and the different classes of PDs. When I read through BPD/NPD, the light bulb started turning on. Once I read Stop Walking on Eggshells the bulb was more of a floodlight. Throw in van der Kolk's The Body Keeps the Score and BAM! Once she gave me the information on what happened in the past it became very clear. That much I truly appreciate; just knowing that I haven't been crazy through all these years and can understand has been a huge win for me.

Your questions are the crucial ones that I will have to continue wrestling with. I can say this, I was absolutely done with the marriage when I filed. I knew that whatever was broken, I couldn't fix it or stay in it. Now with new information, i know what it is and she says she is willing to face it...I have had the desire to reevaluate.

Interestingly, her attempt to FOG me for the first two days was hard but didn't move my resolve. It was the explanation of her past that she had been trying to tell me about before I filed, but failed to voice, that moved the needle. It wasn't an empty promise of future behavior being different, it was a willingness tell me about the past and to face the undisclosed trauma with a desire to work on her own issues. Does that difference make sense?

Honestly, if I couldn't corroborate she had indeed tried to talk about it before I told her I filed, it would have fallen on deaf ears as manipulation.

If she is willing to do the necessary work, I would be happy to see her healthy. I would be happy to be together as functional, healthy parents to amazing kids.  If we could get to that place, yes i would be glad to be together even after the kids are gone. 

At the same time I fully realize her getting healthy and finding her own identity may mean a different end to our relationship is a possibility. If that were the case, hopefully it would mean a more amicable end with two healthier adults.

[MeandThee29]

You probably know that it's very common in mental health issues to have a quiet period when the person is holding it together followed by yet another explosion. Because there's really not a medication that helps in a major way, it's all about self control. Mood stabilizers can help some, but don't address the thinking issues.

I really thought the divorce process might be OK because my STBX seemed to have it under control when we started. But as soon as I questioned things and got my own lawyer, nope.

Apparently it would only have gone smoothly if I had given in on everything the whole way. So much for negotiation.

[All_Out_of_Sync]

Yeah, I have been bracing for the calm period to end since it started! Honestly, last night may have been the beginning of that end.

Although the conversation did not completely dysregulate, it took a turn for the familiar but weird. She launched into some very odd recollections and accusations that were loosely grounded in some past events, but not how she described them last night. She was seemingly stiching together a narrative that I would not validate, nor apologize for since I did not do what she was accusing me of doing. I did my best to validate her feelings about the situation she described without validating the invalid (misconstrued facts and misattributed motivation). She repeatedly came back to things that she wanted me to validate but I refused to. That caused her to get more emotional but I did my best to not get drawn in.

I explained I was having difficulty following some of the conversation because some of it wasn't lining up. I quietly ended the conversation but was left with a familiar feeling of my head spinning. She decided to sleep on the couch.

Honestly, this is what I have expected. She has a lot of work to do before I will see changes. It will be interesting to see what the next conversation looks like; escalation or de-escalation?

[MeandThee29]

Honestly, last night may have been the beginning of that end.

It will be interesting to see what the next conversation looks like; escalation or de-escalation?

I'm sorry to hear that. I think escalation is probable.

I recently was thinking about the difference between what I experienced as a spouse and conflict with other people.  As an example, I had an exchange with my oldest on Sunday based on a misunderstanding. He was angry about something I had said a week before that he decided was hurtful. But we talked about it, and it ended up that I was coming at it from my own fears. He felt I was hovering too much on an issue that he was handling. We worked it out based on love for each other. About a month back, my younger one was angry because I was late getting her vehicle back so she could go to class. As it turned out, it was a misunderstanding as well as an issue with traffic. So I took steps to make sure it doesn't happen again. No escalation or discarding. We are committed to each other.

Anyway, we're here for you.

[livednlearned]

What strikes me is how your wife kept trying different tactics in relatively quick succession until she landed on one that worked (e.g. playing the victim role).

There's a book called In Sheep's Clothing that discusses these tactics:

Playing the Victim Role: This tactic involves portraying oneself as a victim of circumstance or someone else's behavior in order to gain sympathy, evoke compassion and thereby get something from another. One thing that covert-aggressive personalities count on is the fact that less calloused and hostile personalities usually can't stand to see anyone suffering.

If she is manipulating you, she will tire of this tactic in favor of one that requires less genuine accountability and responsibility.

It might help to familiarize yourself with these tactics since you have so much on the line here. Otherwise the head spinning may continue. My sense is that she gave the appearance of taking responsibility and is now using other tactics to keep you hooked, ones that require less work holding up pretenses of accountability.

[MeandThee29]

If she is manipulating you, she will tire of this tactic in favor of one that requires less genuine accountability and responsibility.

My sense is that she gave the appearance of taking responsibility and is now using other tactics to keep you hooked, ones that require less work holding up pretenses of Y.

Yes, in all of my interactions with a therapist, a life coach, and other people familiar with the dynamic, they stressed the need for accountability and responsibility. Also a rebuilding of trust. Some time ago I found the papers from the hospital after his suicide attempt, and it was all about the same concepts.

My boundaries didn't count at all to him though, and so we are in the divorce process.

[All_Out_of_Sync]

Somewhat surprisingly, the de-escalated conversation has continued. She made a repair attempt the night after my "possibly the beginning of the end" comment and owned the fact she had set up our conversation to fail by not explaining what she had been reading that day (Brene Brown's I Thought it was Just Me), which gave her ample reason to face/stew in shame before we started talking.

She has since had another therapy session and discussed some details with me. She shared that initial assessment did not indicate a PD. Oddly at a different point in the same conversation my wife admitted her ability to "hide what is really going on with her." I doubt she is self-aware enough to realize how odd this sounded.  (I would be fascinated to have a conversation with her therapist about some specific behavior patterns!)   If she is maniplating me or the therapist, I don't think she will be able to hold this presentation together for very long. 

Meandthee, the accounability piece is why I am so glad to have our T's talking.  It will be interesting to hear what comes out in my next session. If she pulls back from therapy and says anything close to, "it isn't working" I will have my answer!

LnL, That book sounds incredibly helpful, I will be reading this weekend. Thanks for yhe suggestion.

Hope everyone's week is wrapping up well!

[40days_in_desert]

No two people are alike and that includes two pwBPD. Like you, I fundamentally didn't want a divorce. We were together for 16.5 years and have 5 kids together. My ex filed first in the state where we had been living for three years after she moved 12 hours away to our home state. We ended up dismissing that case due to logistics as I had moved back as well.
My ex brought up reconciliation several times from February 2017 until around May of this year. She blamed herself for all that happened and somewhat apologized. She even started therapy near the end of 2018. I had filed in our home state in Sept 2017 and divorce was final in July 2018. I agree with focusing on actions and not words. I had a lot of the two not matching. At least not for more than 2 maybe 3 weeks. All desire to try came to an end about a year and a half ago. Even then the desire was weak. The last time that I even thought about it my ex was showing signs of change for a few weeks by recognizing that she would start to react with a flood of emotion and then would catch herself and quickly get back to baseline. This only lasted a few weeks then she went back into her typical "I'm the reason that she's the way she is; the reason that she has nothing; manipulated her and continually attempt to gaslight her, etc..."
Only you can decide if you want to call off the divorce and trust that she will consistently put in the hard work to get better. Keep in mind that the odds are very high that she won't. That doesn't mean that it can't happen. I know where you are and how you feel right now as I'm sure many people here do. Maybe you'll be one of the rare few that make it work but I would be careful. My ex did the same thing as one of the earlier posts mentioned. I had told my ex a few weeks before that I was going to file and she begged me to hold off because she felt we could work on us and reconcile. I didn't and good thing that I didn't call it off. I found out later in the discovery process via Messenger texts that she was buying time to line up a lawyer.
 

[MeandThee29]

Meandthee, the accountability piece is why I am so glad to have our T's talking.  It will be interesting to hear what comes out in my next session. If she pulls back from therapy and says anything close to, "it isn't working" I will have my answer!

From all I've been told and read, you are looking at a year or more for significant change. They recommended living apart for that whole year in my case. Deep aspects of thinking has to be changed.  And of course that long and that deep usually doesn't continue.