Bittersweet weekend

[ProudDad12]

I mentioned last week (in my post about the conflict with my parents and ongoing NC with them) that I reconnected with my aunt after 9 years of timid/touchy relations between them and my FOO. Basically my dad's relationship with his siblings hasn't been great for some time, and we got caught in the middle of a big conflict.

Anyway, we went to visit my aunt and her family this weekend, to catch up and to talk about what we've been dealing with with my parents. It was eye opening. First she was clear with me that her and my dad's brothers were aware and see the same things we're experiencing. And that I could call whenever I need to talk. So it was really nice knowing I have some family I can turn to during this craziness. It also helped me immensely in the realm of gaslighting. Up to this point any advice, insight, etc. was from the viewpoint of friends/counselor/here/etc., where the understanding of events comes from what I say (I'm afraid of biasing the story). In the case of my aunt and uncles, they have known my parents longer than me, and are speaking from their own observations. To hear their side be consistent with what my wife and I have been seeing/saying really helped me a lot.

Things got more interesting the more we talked. Many years ago, my wife spent a lot of time with my aunt and her family, because they were the only ones who made her feel welcome in the family. It stopped after a big conflict with them and my FOO, where as I described it, my FOO "circled the wagons and we were caught in the middle of the circle". So we felt mostly cut off from that part of the family, a fact that my mom loved to blame on my wife (a notion my aunt firmly put to bed).

Well for the past decade my mom would talk about how my aunt was always trying to tell her all this bad stuff my wife said about my mom, but my mom wouldn't listen because "she had my wife's back". My response was always that I'd want to be in on that conversation too, because me and my wife would like to know what she supposedly said as well.

Well according to my aunt and cousin, my parents have been soliciting my aunt to find bad things my wife said about them (there was nothing and they got nothing, according to my aunt). My sister even made a sporadic weekend trip to talk about us and fish for stuff. Keep in mind, they and my aunts family are on tense and superficial terms, so her trip was unusual. I have no idea what to think about all that. It definitely seems my mom has been playing us all. In fact, I've been wanting to reach out to my aunt and she's been wanting to reach out to me, but we've both been scared to, largely because of the things we've been fed by my mom.

There were other nuggets too. Like observations on my childhood, on how I was a sullen and grumpy kid (albeit mature and well behaved) who my aunt was afraid was going to snap one day. And like how my mom has made random comments like "Now I just pray people get what they deserve" (a tidbit I've heard from her as well), and "It doesn't really matter what I say, I can always just deny it later".

We also spent a lot of time talking about the general difficulties, like how my parents are incapable of admitting fault, how my mom has changed my dad, how him and my siblings are in lockstep with my mom and her feelings, etc. Basically the things that have been making our lives a nightmare lately. She shared stories of how they've run into that with them too, but admitted for her it was mostly just annoyances. She also reiterated to me that my priority is my wife and kids and that I'm doing the right thing. She said she wishes she could ask my mom what exactly she has to gain by behaving how she is, and if it's really worth losing me and my family.

Anyway it was tough trying to process all that on the ride home, and I still am. Like my wife said, it feels like we're living a dream, finding out things my FOO is capable of and have apparently been doing and saying behind our backs. I'm not even sure if I'm supposed to be posting in a BPD forum anymore, because I don't know what this is! I just feel like so much of what I know has been getting turned upside down. I mean I'm on year 3 of that journey, but this weekend was a combination of validating and rocking.

And I know there is always the possibility my aunt and co. are being misleading. However, the things they say seem more consistent with our observations, do a better job fitting with what we already know, and don't reek of distortion. Plus they seem to be willing to admit their fault where necessary. I hate that the past 10 years have sewn so much distrust in me.

Just wanted to share that update. Still have no idea what to think or make of what all I found out, and trying to process it all. My next counseling appt is in a couple days, can't wait for that conversation.

[Kwamina]

Hi ProudDad12

Thanks for this update. I am glad you were able to reconnect with your aunt after all this time

Indeed a lot to process, all in all it seems though that this visit was quite validating and also eye-opening.

You've had a few days to reflect on all of this. What are your thoughts now on everything your aunt shared with you?

Have you already had that counseling appointment you talked about? If so, how did it go?

The Board Parrot

[ProudDad12]

Hi Kwamina,

I think the more I reflect, the sadder I get. Which is strange to say because there is a bit of relief involved as well, as the validation has helped me immensely. But I'm also sad because the more everything sinks in the more I wonder if the NC is going to be more indefinite than I realize. Part of me is mourning my FOO as I knew them, and part of me is trying to accept this new reality. My thoughts and emotions are further complicated by my dad's upcoming surgery for prostate cancer, my daughter's birthday, and the holidays.

I don't think that really answered your question, I'm sorry! I think I'm still trying to figure out what to do with what I know. I also haven't had much chance to focus on it, my wife hurt her back this week and it's had me a bit busier than normal.

Our counseling appointment was interesting. A lot of it was my wife and I trying to fill him in on as much as possible, without overwhelming him. He agreed it was good we got some validation and also regained some family, and told us to be sure to appreciate and enjoy that. He said my mom has problems, which wasn't really a surprise to him or us. And said while he hasn't met her and thus couldn't make any real determinations, he noted that her patterns/behaviors/actions etc are consistent with psychopathic/sociopathic. Which got me to wondering if this is more than BPD and led to me making my other post. I hate coming across like I'm trying to vilify my mom or something, but things I just keep finding things out, and coming after years and years of FOG induced obedience and feeling like I'm the problem. The NC has given me a sense of freedom and the validation is giving a weird sense of relief, but it's all wrapped in a sense of sadness. I also still have to fight guilt here and there.

Anyway I'm rambling again. Sorry, it's a mess in my head and hard to articulate!

[Notwendy]

I think the grief, sadness and shock is normal.

I recall the shock I felt when I realized my mother could tell me a complete lie, act sincere about it and seemingly feel no remorse for it.  I think we give a "pass" to our mothers. And society portrays our mothers as kind, loving, good people.

My mother does have some good qualities. But she's also a manipulative liar, and it doesn't matter that I am her child when it comes to who she lies to.

The person I perceived as a mother- is complicated. I don't know what is real/sincere about her actions or what isn't. I don't know if she is telling the truth when she speaks to me or not. I think it takes some time to process it.

[zachira]

Your aunt has validated many of your feelings about your FOO and has let you know that she and other family members have compassion for what you have been going through with your FOO. The struggle to control the family narratives is a big one for the most dysfunctional members of the family because they want to look good and make it look like that others are at fault. Over the years, I have become more aware of what family members have a more realistic understanding of what is going on, and who has been sucked into the toxic family narratives. Even though you feel that your aunt has a better grip on reality and has your best interests at heart, you may want to limit what you tell her about you, your wife and children, not because you don't trust her, because you don't know how what she shares will be warped by the family members who want to make you and your wife look bad OR perhaps you may want to share with your aunt, develop more of a relationship with your aunt and some of your father's brothers, and not let it bother you how your FOO warps the narrative which they will do no matter what you do. I am sure it means a lot to you to have your aunt and uncles understand to a certain degree what you are going through. I know having family members support me means a lot though I realize I do have to have boundaries with them, as there is a limit to how much they can understand my point of view, and how much they want to be a part of the toxic family dynamics, which they are simply by the fact that they interact with these family members. Take care and keep us updated on how you are doing.

[ProudDad12]

Thanks Notwendy and zachira. Sorry for not getting back sooner, have been traveling for work.

And society portrays our mothers as kind, loving, good people.

It really does. It always stings seeing someone's initial reaction if they find out about my NC or something related to it, not knowing the story. And it's not like we can explain it in 5 minutes. Or even 5 hours.

That said, while to my knowledge my hometown still sees my mom as a saint, friends up in our current town have admitted getting a bad vibe off her when they met her. Though it's a fact they've typically only opened up about after finding out about our current issues.

I don't know what is real/sincere about her actions or what isn't. I don't know if she is telling the truth when she speaks to me or not.

This is so true! I've gotten to the point where I don't trust anything coming from her. And what's bad is a big part of me believes that she believes her heart is in the right place. Like she has this goal of a tight family she can hold in close, and any manipulation is well intentioned and moving toward that goal, assuming she's even aware.

Even though you feel that your aunt has a better grip on reality and has your best interests at heart, you may want to limit what you tell her about you, your wife and children, not because you don't trust her, because you don't know how what she shares will be warped by the family members who want to make you and your wife look bad OR perhaps you may want to share with your aunt, develop more of a relationship with your aunt and some of your father's brothers, and not let it bother you how your FOO warps the narrative which they will do no matter what you do.

I've been definitely been treading carefully, especially at first. She's been checking in on me (as well as my wife) and trying to provide support. While it's obvious she had made up her mind about her position related to my parents well before now, she's trying to be mindful with what she says, knowing this is hard for me and I'm conflicted. She's tried to offer advice as well as help me think things out as far as me considering what it would take to open myself back up to my family. I've really appreciated being able to confide in her.

So a few things have happened since my last update...

First I had another aunt reach out, this one on my mom's side. She took a neutral stance to the situation, but wanted to update me on my dad's condition since she assumed I had blocked them (and said she would have done the same to stop their attacks). Talking to her was a bit more difficult. First because she sounds almost exactly like my mom despite being a very different person personality wise. Second because although she related to a lot of our experiences and echoed a lot of things we've seen, she's also known my mom all her life and cuts her a lot of slack knowing the traumatic childhood my mom had. So she somehow both had a supportive stance as well as a "life is short and you don't get the time back" stance. Which is true and hard to swallow, but for me this isn't about not moving on from the past, but about trying to protect us in the present and future. Anyway it was a long conversation that left me with mixed emotions.

The other thing is my uncle reached out to me (dad's oldest brother). It was a short conversation but he wanted to make sure I knew that we still had family, and they love us, are there for us, and have been seeing the things we're seeing for a long time. It was a nice conversation. We didn't get into details about the past few months, I really appreciated what he had to say. My wife came in on the tail end, and got really happy when she saw me smile, which apparently I'm not doing much of lately.

[TelHill]

Hi Kwamina,

I think the more I reflect, the sadder I get.

I don't think that really answered your question, I'm sorry! I think I'm still trying to figure out what to do with what I know. I also haven't had much chance to focus on it, my wife hurt her back this week and it's had me a bit busier than normal.

Our counseling appointment was interesting. A lot of it was my wife and I trying to fill him in on as much as possible, without overwhelming him. He agreed it was good we got some validation and also regained some family, and told us to be sure to appreciate and enjoy that. He said my mom has problems, which wasn't really a surprise to him or us. And said while he hasn't met her and thus couldn't make any real determinations, he noted that her patterns/behaviors/actions etc are consistent with psychopathic/sociopathic. Which got me to wondering if this is more than BPD and led to me making my other post. I hate coming across like I'm trying to vilify my mom or something, but things I just keep finding things out, and coming after years and years of FOG induced obedience and feeling like I'm the problem. The NC has given me a sense of freedom and the validation is giving a weird sense of relief, but it's all wrapped in a sense of sadness. I also still have to fight guilt here and there.

Proud dad, getting a handle on possible diagnoses on your mom is a way to protect yourself and your family. You know what’s wrong and a course of action.  Anti-Social Personality Disorder (including psychopathic/sociopathic) ranges across a broad spectrum. There are very few sufferers who are serial killers a la Jeffrey Dahmer/Ted Bundy or a master mind manipulator like the late Charles Manson.  Most are moms, dads, coworkers, bosses, clergy.

If I may say, you sound like a disciplined, hard-working man who tackles work issues head-on with a smart working plan. The issue gets resolved through hard work and attention to detail.

I say it because I’m like this. I solved the problem and it’s done. Give me the next completely different one and it’s done. On and on.  It gives me a sense of control & confidence.

My FOO issues are beyond me to solve or control. I manage my own reactions and the issues I’ll offer empathy for. My mom breaking her hip - yes, I want to know the prognosis & offer to help buying groceries, adult diapers. My mom crying because she has issues deciding to wear pants or a skirt to a wedding - no.

I switched between NC and LC from age 18 until a few years ago.  It’s ok to do that. It helped me to step away from the drama. It’s sad. I wanted and deserved a loving mother. I was her mom. She was and is verbally & emotionally abusive. My dad was working all the time and I don’t remember my brother. I wanted to run away from home always. I ran out of tears at age 10. I cried from pain from being hurt and invisible. No one helped me or cared. I remember that and take it into account now.

[ProudDad12]

Proud dad, getting a handle on possible diagnoses on your mom is a way to protect yourself and your family. You know what’s wrong and a course of action.  Anti-Social Personality Disorder (including psychopathic/sociopathic) ranges across a broad spectrum. There are very few sufferers who are serial killers a la Jeffrey Dahmer/Ted Bundy or a master mind manipulator like the late Charles Manson.  Most are moms, dads, coworkers, bosses, clergy.

Funny you mention that, our therapist threw out one of those names too. Not in the suggestion of criminal action, but just as example of self centered lack of empathy while still putting on a good image. You're right, the awareness does help in understanding and establishing how to respond/act/etc.

If I may say, you sound like a disciplined, hard-working man who tackles work issues head-on with a smart working plan. The issue gets resolved through hard work and attention to detail.

I say it because I’m like this. I solved the problem and it’s done. Give me the next completely different one and it’s done. On and on.  It gives me a sense of control & confidence.

I'll leave the hard working part up for debate, but I'm definitely a methodically inclined thinker who can't let a problem go unresolved! Guess it goes with being an engineer . In any event I appreciate the words. These issues are certainly something I'm trying to work through as objectively and appropriately as I can. Not sure how much is due to my engineer mindset, and how much is from knowing I'm going to beat myself up down the road if I don't handle this the best way I know how.

My FOO issues are beyond me to solve or control.

I'm somewhere on the road to acceptance of that myself!

I switched between NC and LC from age 18 until a few years ago.  It’s ok to do that. It helped me to step away from the drama. It’s sad. I wanted and deserved a loving mother. I was her mom. She was and is verbally & emotionally abusive. My dad was working all the time and I don’t remember my brother. I wanted to run away from home always. I ran out of tears at age 10. I cried from pain from being hurt and invisible. No one helped me or cared. I remember that and take it into account now.

I'm very sorry to hear about your childhood, nobody should have to go through that. But glad you've settled in a better place!

I've always viewed my childhood positively and in a nurturing environment, but am slowly getting tidbits that make me wonder how much was normal/healthy and how much wasn't. As I have more and more serious conversations, my childhood friends are telling me how obedient and self conscious I was. How I never seemed comfortable in my own skin (still not sometimes, TBH), and never rebelled or knew how to let loose. My aunt and cousin have told me how I was always grumpy. I don't have any clear memory of abuse (though I guess that's subjective, because if I did something wrong I did get spankings with belts and switches when my dad got home). I do remember going to bed many nights with daydreams of running away after getting in trouble. But then the next morning my mom would be loving and I would move on. So now I'm between this place of thinking all that is normal, and wondering if it isn't, and wondering if those thoughts are just a witch hunt for which I should feel guilty.

[zachira]

You are wondering about your childhood, as you viewed yourself as having grown up in a nurturing environment. As children, we are forced to buy into the family narratives to survive. It is normal that you may have a pollyanna view of your childhood, and now you are questioning that narrative because you are an adult and it is safe to do so.

[TelHill]

Funny you mention that, our therapist threw out one of those names too. Not in the suggestion of criminal action, but just as example of self centered lack of empathy while still putting on a good image. You're right, the awareness does help in understanding and establishing how to respond/act/etc.

I'll leave the hard working part up for debate, but I'm definitely a methodically inclined thinker who can't let a problem go unresolved! Guess it goes with being an engineer . In any event I appreciate the words. These issues are certainly something I'm trying to work through as objectively and appropriately as I can. Not sure how much is due to my engineer mindset, and how much is from knowing I'm going to beat myself up down the road if I don't handle this the best way I know how.

I'm somewhere on the road to acceptance of that myself!

I'm very sorry to hear about your childhood, nobody should have to go through that. But glad you've settled in a better place!

I've always viewed my childhood positively and in a nurturing environment, but am slowly getting tidbits that make me wonder how much was normal/healthy and how much wasn't. As I have more and more serious conversations, my childhood friends are telling me how obedient and self conscious I was. How I never seemed comfortable in my own skin (still not sometimes, TBH), and never rebelled or knew how to let loose. My aunt and cousin have told me how I was always grumpy. I don't have any clear memory of abuse (though I guess that's subjective, because if I did something wrong I did get spankings with belts and switches when my dad got home). I do remember going to bed many nights with daydreams of running away after getting in trouble. But then the next morning my mom would be loving and I would move on. So now I'm between this place of thinking all that is normal, and wondering if it isn't, and wondering if those thoughts are just a witch hunt for which I should feel guilty.

I’m a tech worker.  I thought I saw similar wheels working in your head.

You may have repressed memories of specific incidents with your mom or you noticed them first as an adult. I also wondered if my mom had concomitant mental illnesses. I looked into narcissism because she seemed to lack a conscience sometimes and has been smearing/slandering me starting as a kid up to the present day. She’s too reserved for attention grabbing. Not really sure.

I read the book mentioned in the blog post below. It’s by a clinical psychologist who realized only as an adult that his mom had a mental illness. Not sure if this is the case with your mom. It’s an interesting book.


www.drcraigmalkin.com/blog/mother-was-a-narcissist

Sorry you had to go through having to act with adult-like self control as a kid. It didn’t help to be hit as a kid. It’s a terrible way to discipline a child.