Do any of you see psychopathic behavior in BPD loved ones?

[ProudDad12]

Something that's been on my mind for a little bit after hearing stories of my mom from my aunt this weekend... do any of you see psychopathic behavior in BPD loved ones? Wondering if that is a common thing or exception to the rule.

The mother I "know" is a kind, generous, loving, well-meaning lady. And if you dare to think or say otherwise her and/or the rest of my FOO will be quick to jump in and beat the fact back into your head.

As I've extended our NC into unprecedented territory for us, it has opened up room for discovery on my part. While I've accepted for a few years now that my mom cannot handle criticism or any insinuation of wrong doing on her part, the more I hear the more I wonder if there is more to this than her presumed BPD. Probably not much point in me trying to lay out all the examples, but the general themes are that she has to make everything about her. And no matter how bad someone is suffering, she has to explain why she is suffering more. And it seems like every time a family member dies, my mom has to have a story or action that makes her special to the whole thing (e.g., my cousin passed away years ago, and my mom talked about how she knows he came to visit her that night in her bedroom in the form of a glowing orb. Ridiculousness aside, nevermind the fact that he didn't visit his parents or brother).

Anyway, the lack of responsibility for any wrongdoing, the general pushing of what a great and loving person she is, the "perfect image" she holds so dear, making sure everyone knows what SHE thinks, etc., just really seems to point to more than BPD for me. Or am I stretching? While part of me feels like a terrible son for coming and talking about her like this, the more I hear, the less I want anything to do with her. So this is one of the places I come to try to process that mess.

I will say something that's been standing out to me... this past weekend my aunt showed me a text where my mom said "Just do what I do, and pretend you don't remember saying that!". That really got to me, because I've nearly pulled my hair out in frustration during arguments with her, where she denies and denies very impactful and hurtful things she's said. It sure explains a lot.

I know this is a change of tone from my usual posts, this has just been on my mind. Sorry for all the rambling I've been doing here lately.

[Vanilla Sky]

do any of you see psychopathic behavior in BPD loved ones? Wondering if that is a common thing or exception to the rule.

That is an interesting question. In my mother's case, both my therapist and I thought that my mother is likely pwBPD, but we were still finding other aspects that suggested there was more than BPD. My therapist suggested me to read about psychopathy and its various degrees. That is when I came to know the narcissist personality disorder, which in the mother's case it seems to be co-morbid with BPD, and usually prevails in her behaviors.

[Harri]

From Wikipedia:  Psychopathy is traditionally a personality disorder characterized by persistent antisocial behavior, impaired empathy and remorse, and bold, disinhibited, and egotistical traits. It is sometimes considered synonymous with sociopathy.   Different conceptions of psychopathy have been used throughout history that are only partly overlapping and may sometimes be contradictory.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy

Are you using psychopathy as the equivalent of sociopathy?  If so, you might want to check out the following:

Sociopathy / ASPD
COMPARISON: Antisocial Personality Disorder vs BPD
Scroll down to the bottom of the first response and you will see links to more discussions comparing BPD to other disorders.  

Good topic  

[Notwendy]

I have also wondered if my mother had sociopathic tendencies.

Not like a dangerous criminal. She wouldn't commit a serious crime. But she does sometimes take pleasure in manipulating people. She lies and seems to enjoy when she's fooled people when they believe her. She pulls this on me and if I fall for it, I can see an impish grin on her face.

If she's in victim mode, she enjoys hurting people back. Other times, she seems either oblivious to when she has hurt others emotionally or just doesn't care. 

She's cold and unaffectionate. She has zero empathy but knows how to fake it when she thinks she needs to be empathetic.

Regardless of her motive, I don't trust her and I am not invested in whether or not she cares about me. I don't think she does , she mostly doesn't act like it. But sometimes she'll surprise me. I can't tell if she's faking it to manipulate me or not.

She's my biological mother, but doesn't act like other mothers do. I noticed this as a child- my friend's mothers were different. When I read "Mother's Day" cards in the store, it seems they are talking about something else. She's not that kind of mother.

However, I don't know  if she has sociopathic motives or she's just that mentally ill. Basically, I have to just deal with the behaviors regardless- and I keep an emotional distance.

[zachira]

I think it can perhaps be helpful to distinguish what behaviors the person with BPD is not aware of and behaviors that are truly evil, ones that are consiously planned to hurt another. I often have thought that maybe some of the behaviors I saw in my family members with BPD were deliberately meant to hurt me. One cousin has told me that she does not think my siblings are deliberately trying to hurt me. Another cousin has suggested to me that my sister has Aspergers, high functioning autism. After reading up on Aspergers, I believe my sister would fully meet the critieria for Aspergers if diagnosed by a qualified mental health professional, and possibly my brother as well. I have plenty of relatives who are on the autism spectrum. My mother certainly met the criteria with BPD, and I do think she had some Aspergers traits and my father as well seemed to have some Aspergers traits. The important thing to remember about people with Aspergers is they are challenged in understanding that other people feel differently that they do. There are also other disorders that can help to explain mean behaviors. Having what is popularly known as multiple personalities, clinically referred to as Dissociative Identity Disorder, can also explain some really strange behaviors. Cleary every one is different. People with mental health disorders and developmental disorders often marry each other, which can make it harder to pinpoint one specific cause of why the person is so dysfunctional and treats others so badly because of the wide variety of traits inherited/learned from growing up with dysfunctional parents.

[ProudDad12]

My therapist suggested me to read about psychopathy and its various degrees. That is when I came to know the narcissist personality disorder, which in the mother's case it seems to be co-morbid with BPD, and usually prevails in her behaviors.

Yeah that's what got me to thinking about this too; at our last appointment this week our therapist made the connections to potentially more than BPD.

From Wikipedia:  Psychopathy is traditionally a personality disorder characterized by persistent antisocial behavior, impaired empathy and remorse, and bold, disinhibited, and egotistical traits. It is sometimes considered synonymous with sociopathy.   Different conceptions of psychopathy have been used throughout history that are only partly overlapping and may sometimes be contradictory.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy

Are you using psychopathy as the equivalent of sociopathy?  If so, you might want to check out the following:

Maybe? I'll admit a lot of the psychological terms are above my pay grade, but the description above resonates. Maybe not the antisocial part, as she values her public image greatly.

I have also wondered if my mother had sociopathic tendencies.

Not like a dangerous criminal. She wouldn't commit a serious crime. But she does sometimes take pleasure in manipulating people. She lies and seems to enjoy when she's fooled people when they believe her. She pulls this on me and if I fall for it, I can see an impish grin on her face.

Oh yeah I agree, I definitely didn't mean in a criminal sense either! In my mom's case I wouldn't call her cold, she's actually very loving (at least surface level), but any hint of perceived attack puts her into victim/defense mode, which involves lots of lashing out and manipulation. But the more I hear, the more I'm realizing there is also coercion/manipulation in the "good" times as well, and I'm scratching my head at the motivation. But I'm also starting to wonder if she enjoys it.

Funny you mention Mother's Day cards... I have the same problem. I look through them, and I struggle finding one that fits how I feel.

I think it can perhaps be helpful to distinguish what behaviors the person with BPD is not aware of and behaviors that are truly evil, ones that are consiously planned to hurt another. I often have thought that maybe some of the behaviors I saw in my family members with BPD were deliberately meant to hurt me.

Yeah I don't think there is evil going on here (might get a different answer from my wife or cousin!). Which in a way almost makes this harder... the thought that despite everything they say and do, they may genuinely feel like they are blameless and are being punished unfairly when we go NC.

I can't explain the general manipulation, but I theorize the way my mom handles conflict (and by extension the way my FOO does) is born from a place of hurt/trauma in her life. I think in a lot of ways she actually is a victim to her circumstances from early in life, but her way of "dealing" with it has resulted in a pattern of BPD/sociopathic tendencies. Potential genetic implications aside.

Anyway I'm getting way out of my lane there with my hypothesizing so I better stop. Thanks everyone for the responses.

[TelHill]

I see paranoia in my mom when she's stressed. She doesn't know why God, me, my father, some nieces and nephews, my GC brother on rare occasion, her cousins are against her.  She tells me and my dad these things.  

She is manipulative.  The crazy off the cuff put downs and rages against me never occur when my brother and I are with here at the same time.  

She is very generous with me. She gives me money, food, clothing. It's not a lot, but she does share what she has always. She wants to be with me all the time.  I can see her dissociate and she looks extremely depressed a lot of the time. She rages and is sadistic in her put downs of me.

Those with antisocial personality disorder, the psychopaths and sociopaths, lie and manipulate for a purpose: to steal significant money/property, to get ahead at the job or in a social circle, for intimate relations. It's something concrete which you would never give them if you knew the truth about their motives. They slander and smear to isolate you in case you tell others about them. I could be wrong but that's how I see it for the non-serial killer types.

I can see this behavior overlapping for some of the stories I've read here about some bpd relatives.  

Here's a WebMD article about antisocial personality disorder outlining the differences between a psychopath and a sociopath:

https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/features/sociopath-psychopath-difference#1

I hope you get more clarity on how best to handle your situation ProudDad.

[Notwendy]

My mother enjoys the manipulation. It's a game to her. Sometimes she is being hurtful when dysregulating and in victim mode. I don't think she perceives the effect of this when she is in this state. But other times, she does it on purpose, for revenge, ( still in victim mode) and she enjoys it.

My mother constantly lies. She is aware of this and it is purposeful. She seems to do this for several reasons. It gives her a sense of power, to be able to fool people and keep them in the dark. She does it for revenge for perceived hurts. When she is called out on a lie, she denies it. I have caught her in complete lies and she sincerely looks at me and says " I have never lied to you".

I think the lying is probably the largest barrier to having a meaningful relationship with her for me. I can't tell when she is being truthful or not. She isn't sincere with me- she seems to be looking to manipulate me. If she contacts me, there's an agenda and she keeps that hidden.

I read a book called "The Sociopath Next Door". It is about people with sociopathic tendencies who don't do large criminal acts, but stay with lesser acts. My mother has BPD with NPD tendencies. I think an aspect of this book also fits her. I do think there are aspects to the different PD's that can overlap. Sociopathy may be at the severe end of NPD. But regardless of what "labels" fit my mother best, I deal with the behaviors.

[TelHill]

Notwendy,

I read the Sociopath Next Door by Martha Stout, Ph.D, when I had boss troubles. It's quite the book.

Gauging the behavior is key, I agree, to protect yourself if one chooses to be near a troubled relative. I keep expectations very low and share nothing of importance to her. I love her but can never trust her. It seems like the antithesis of the parent-child relationship. It's the way it is for some of us though.

[Notwendy]

Yes, if I tell my mother something, it's something I wouldn't care if it was on the news. I don't feel I can trust her with personal information. When I do tell her something, she shares it with her friends and relatives.

Our relationship is superficial. It's sad to think about it, but it is the only way I know to keep contact with a person I can't trust.

It's sad for her too. I recall the theory that a sociopath can't make a connection with others, and so they manipulate them to replace that. I think my mother manipulates people to get them to meet her needs, but can't ask for that directly.