I think he could change but it will either be too slow or temporary

[boogs152]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=340025.30

I keep saying no. Deep down I have mixed emotions. I think he could change because he is in therapy but it will either be too slow or temporary

[formflier]

He could change.

So..wait, talk to him towards the end of his inpatient therapy.

If he denies you access to discussions with his providers, then you can be sure he has things to hide and your pathway forward is much clearer.

If there is a conversation, then you'll have to evaluate that then.

Best,

FF

[boogs152]

I see what you’re saying Form but I don’t want to waste time. I’m really concerned that he could take me on a ride again. I’ve read here the pwBPD rarely change and if so,it’s usually temporary?  I don’t know...

He will be gone soon but in the mean time he keeps begging me to take him back. I feel immense pressure and sadness when he does this. Also, he appears to get pleasure from trying to win me over. Has anyone else experienced this? It’s like hes enjoying the challenge of me rejecting him when he asks me if I’ll take him back. He randomly asked me today if I wanted to have sex as well. I gave him a firm no. He looked ashamed at that point and then twenty min later apologised for being disrespectful.

[formflier]

The reason I suggested my "script" for you is to not "feed the monster" now.

He is "getting something" from this asking and asking.  I doubt it's your intention to "feed the monster", but pwBPD rarely do  things that don't "have a payoff" for them.

So, when he asked you about sex and you said no, that fed something inside him.

If I had been perched on your shoulder I would have advised you to say..

"Oh my...well, that's something we can discuss at the end of your inpatient stay with your mental health team."

Not a no...not a yes. 

Clarity:  You are correct, change is rare.  It's also very "individualistic". 

For instance, paranoia is largely gone from my relationship because I realized that I was "feeding the monster" and stopped feeding.   My wife is still an angry person.  I can "soothe" that with validation and other techniques, but I really don't have much to do with her anger.  I've accepted this and accepting this helps me not "engage" her anger which lets the episodes pass more quickly.

There is zero chance I would have figured all that out on my own.  Wonderful therapists guiding open conversations have facilitated massive changes.

Does it make more sense now "why" I suggested the script that I did?

Best,

FF

[boogs152]

Yes i understand what you mean by the script now. I didn’t get the point until now.

[Cat Familiar]

I’m concerned, boogs, that you don’t send him mixed messages about the possibility of being together.

I recall you’ve been struggling with this decision for a long time. Recently you became very clear that you don’t want to continue this relationship as it’s been having a great cost to your physical and emotional health. You haven’t wavered from that decision, but you are concerned, understandably, how he will make do on his own.

I’d not want you to give him false hope that you will ever take him back after his hospitalization. He may never change and you have already decided that he’s been way too detrimental to your health and happiness.

And for someone as unstable as he is, to give false hope seems dangerous for both of you.

[Harri]

Hi Boogs.

Let's regroup here.  Is there a specific day he will be out?

Cat Makes a good point about giving him false hope by suggesting you will have a convo with him at the end of his hospital stay.  Now that he has decided he does not want to go for inpatient treatment like he has in the past, that is not really an option and is not something I think you should involve yourself in.  One reason is that it makes it clear that you think there is something wrong with him.  Clearly he has issues but making a conversation contingent on getting therapy is only going to increase his pain and the conflict for the both of you.  It makes him the bad guy.  And it sets up false hope.  He is not the bad guy he just needs more help than you are in a position to give right?

Would it be possible to pay for him to stay in a long (short?) term hotel or motel?  Or, maybe even better, to give him some cash and let him decide on his own how he wants to spend the money (gas so he can search for a job, get to therapy, etc)?  My thinking is that this will give him some agency and will let him know you respect him and care about him even though the relationship is over.  From reading your posts, it seems that is important to you too.

Boogs, this is a tough situation and there is no easy way to handle this.  There is no painless way to make this break but I think you can make it less painful by taking a hospitalization out of the picture.  Don't set contingencies and definitely not ones that he has already refused. 

You can say something like:  Our relationship is over.  I care about you and I want to help.  This is what I can do (and then state what you have decided on). 

What do you think Boogs?

[boogs152]

Thanks Form Cat and Harri.

I’m really torn as to what to do. I just want to do the right thing by both of us. Part of me is very sad for obvious reasons... I had hoped and dreams... that part of me still wants to hold on to him and give it another go if he returns to the clinic. Another part of me wants to remain grounded and look at it for what it is.
I’ve tried my best to validate him and acknowledge that he’s doing the best he can. I verbalised that many times. I understand that trying to convince him to get treatment would make him feel like the bad guy.

 He’s waiting to be admitted into the clinic on OCT 28. I think I’ll wait until he’s in the clinic and then have a discussion with the medical professionals there  in front of him. Perhaps they can help.

[Harri]

Hi.

I missed where he changed his mind and is now willing to go to the hospital.  Why is he waiting until the 28th?

Boogs, again, this is not easy.  Feeling torn is, I think, common with a relationship like this and when breaking up.  You will feel conflicted.  I think meeting with him and his therapist to talk about the relationship and let him know you do not want to continue it is very wise and the kindest way to do things.  Will going with him to therapy be a possibility?

[boogs152]

I could probably arrange a therapy session with him at the clinic. My heart wants to continue the relationship but I’m just trying to use My head this time... for once in my life.

Do what’s for the best... follow my head and not my heart.

[Harri]

If you can talk with him with a therapist present, it would, I think, be ideal.  They would be able to help him hear what you are saying to him and then support him after.  You could maybe even do this with his current T if he would allow you to go so you can both talk about it?  I am not saying this so you can just dump him and run.  Rather to help him hear your message and receive it in the best way possible.  It is still going to hurt to hear (and for you to say it) but if the hurt can be tempered a bit, all the better.

The thing I keep going back to is that he has a long road ahead of him and going back to the way things were (or are) is not healthy for either of you.  After a 1month hospitalization, will he come out with the skills he needs to be a healthier more connected partner?  Will he be better able to function in society?   Realistically, what will have changed?

[boogs152]

yes Communication with a therapist is well needed. One month in a clinic won’t realistically change anything. He is engaging I. Weekly therapy outside a clinic. It is what it is. It’s ultimately up to me.

[formflier]

  One month in a clinic won’t realistically change anything. 

I would challenge this.

It's not a knowable thing in your case.  Yes, PDs are hard to treat.  The percentages aren't in your favor.

That being said, the only way to know what is happening/changing in "your case" is to show up ask questions and watch (over time).

Best,

FF

[boogs152]

Fair points made Form. Thanks.

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi Boogs-

When you say “he is engaging”, what does that look like?

Hugs,
Gems

[boogs152]

That he’s engaging in fortnightly and now recently changed to  weekly one hour sessions with a  clinical psychologist... she is currently focusing on EDMR therapy to help with his complex trauma issues.

[formflier]

That he’s engaging in fortnightly and now recently changed to  weekly one hour sessions with a  clinical psychologist... she is currently focusing on EDMR therapy to help with his complex trauma issues.

Do you know this from the psychologist or do you know this from him?

I would have to imagine that one of your "markers" to know if there is "real change" is openness/access to his mental health team.

There is a practical side to this as well.  Let's say there is something frustrating him about the relationship.  His P gives him guidance on how to handle it.  Same P might also want to give you some tips on how to best engage/disengage on the same issue.

Best to hear that directly.

Best,

FF

[boogs152]

I agree. His current clinical P won’t work with us together. I’ve already asked. That was last year. It’s incredibly frustrating. Then I suggest a couples counsellor. We did one session with her last month and then C* had a “moment” and said he didn’t want to “work” on the relationship and that things had “faded away” as well as pay money for a couples counsellor
Then Literally the day after he started calling me “babe” again like nothing happened at all.

After that something changed inside me.

I started to get real with myself.

[boogs152]

Sorry I’m not sure the protocol here but I wanted to repost an update.
I had a session with my therapist yesterday. Given the information I gave her regarding my relationship with C* She’s encouraging me to try to move on.

I’m thinking I’ll suggest that C* make his own way alone for a while without contact. He’s meant to be admitted into the clinic on OCT 28. Regardless of what happens he won’t be able to remain living with me beyond OCT 28. He can be a bit swifty with his manipulation and is just as likely to pull out admission last minute and then ask me if he can stay longer. That won’t be happening. If he does actually go into clinical care then I will email his psychiatrist at the clinic and make him aware of some observations I’ve made in recent months.

Perhaps after a period of months apart I’ll have a clearer head. Perhaps he will focus on himself for a while. I hope so.

Another thing... does anyone have anything to share on the topic of learned helplessness in pwBPD?

Also... is there any more advice or considerations I need to keep in mind currently and in due course?

[confusedbybdp]

 

Hi Boogs152,

I am a fellow traveler in the BPD world, but am just now coming into this conversation.  I have read the other entries, and they all are helpful in sorting through your situation.

If I understand your last post correctly, it seems that you are considering putting things on hold, and going NC for a while, during which time C* will be hospitalized. 

First, it seems to me that it is a HUGE accomplishment on C*'s part that he is aware that something is "wrong" and, with your encouragement, that he is seeking inpatient treatment.  Wow, I wish that had been the case in my relationship with my uBPDbf!

I remember reading an article in which the author mentioned that being "in limbo" in a relationship can be difficult for both parties.  That's certainly true for non-borderline relationships, so it makes sense that it can be a tough strategy for relationships with a pwBPD.

Like many people here, I know how agonizingly difficult this decision is for you.  Many, if not most, of us still loved our partners when we had to let them go.  And leaving the relationship is only the beginning.  I have had a difficult time AFTER the end of the relationship as well, with feelings of sadness, regret, and anger, all the while still missing him.  There is no switch that can be turned off, and leaving and moving on is a process, not a single event. 

If I were to put myself in your shoes, I would be struggling in just the same way you are.  Yes, as you've said, we all had hopes and dreams, and they are terribly difficult to give up.  C*'s "recovery" is likely to take years, and even then, some aspects of his thought patterns and behaviors may persist for his lifetime.  Perhaps it would help to take a moment to think ONLY about YOURSELF.  What mental and physical state are you in - healthy or unhealthy? Are you better or worse off now than when you started your relationship with C*?  If the answers are 1) unhealthy, and 2) worse off, then that may help you make a decision about what is best for YOU at this time. 

All the best to you as you continue to work through this process.  I'm glad you are sharing your story and reaching out to us.

[formflier]

Another thing... does anyone have anything to share on the topic of learned helplessness in pwBPD?

 

It's just as important to evaluate "over-functioning" on the part of the non.

They generally go hand in hand.

A common complain is "pwBPD can't do anything for themselves".  Yet when you ask who is doing it, the non does it "because they won't".

Then...when you ask why doesn't the non stop, typically the non will worry "what if they don't do it?" (or what if they don't do it in time)

Step back a bit.  Think about incentives.  If a person (bpd or not) can get major things done in their life without effort (perhaps only having to put up with some nagging)...umm...why not?

Something to think about...

Best,

FF

[Harri]

Hi boogs.

I’m thinking I’ll suggest that C* make his own way alone for a while without contact. He’s meant to be admitted into the clinic on OCT 28. Regardless of what happens he won’t be able to remain living with me beyond OCT 28. He can be a bit swifty with his manipulation and is just as likely to pull out admission last minute and then ask me if he can stay longer. That won’t be happening. If he does actually go into clinical care then I will email his psychiatrist at the clinic and make him aware of some observations I’ve made in recent months.

This sounds like a good plan. 

One practical concern that I have is that this be as clean a break as possible.  Meaning he takes all of his stuff with him even if it means putting it in storage for a while.  Would you be able to help him with that if needed?

I can't think of anything else right now other than to keep going to T and come here and post so we can support you as you heal.  This is not easy and it hurts.  Fortunately you do not have to do this alone.  We've got you boogs.

[formflier]

 

One practical concern that I have is that this be as clean a break as possible.  Meaning he takes all of his stuff with him even if it means putting it in storage for a while.  Would you be able to help him with that if needed?

   Fortunately you do not have to do this alone.  We've got you boogs.

The bolded part is incredibly important advice.  I've certainly been surprised at the number of stories on bpdfamily that have been super complicated because "Hey..I'll leave this in your shed for a month."

Leaving a "hook" or  "reason" to have to have further contact is not wise, especially for someone that has found it challenging to assert their needs.

No...none of this is doublespeak from FF...the guy who is advising you won't consider talking about the future until end of inpatient care.

It's important to have that conversation (should you decide at that time to have the conversation) on a "level playing field".  Said another way.  "obligations" would make such a conversation very unproductive.

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Yes, absolutely clean break. That way there are no hooks and you won’t constantly be reminded of him by seeing his stuff.

[boogs152]

Dear confused.

Thankyou so much for taking the time to share your thoughts here. I agree whole heartedly with your point about C* engaging in treatment being a huge accomplishment. I respect him so much for being brave enough to continue on despite his debilitating illness. C* has good qualities and deserves recovery and all that it entails.
It has been an agonisingly difficult decision to say “no more”. I was in denial for so long. I kept hoping and wishing that eventually C*  would become stable enough to finally be present in our relationship. My heart ached and ached and gradually I unravelled quietly and “agreeably” just to keep the peace...in vain.
I too have been experiencing grief,sadness and emptiness but mostly anger. I haven’t expressed this anger to C*. I’m just waiting now until he disappears tomorrow. He will leave early in the morning to arrive at the clinic for a 9 am admission.

He has spent most of our last day together in his room as usual. He has been very attentive since I ended things two weeks ago. It’s making things so much harder. The heartache
has returned. On the flip side he has been incredibly needy asking lots of questions like “when will you return home?” Or “”Who just called you?” I answer his questions casually and neutrally but I’m completely drained and desperate for space.

He will be gone in a few hours and I keep thinking of something to say to him before he leaves. Something authentic to share with him... a heartfelt gesture of words and feelings but nothing comes to mind... I’m completely blank and numb.

We have agreed that I will take care of his passport and a small amount of cash on his behalf but I will pass those on to his mother soon. I have also put some social workers in place to help him find some suitable stable accommodation in the future. I have done this as to relieve myself of the responsibility (Self inflicted) of trying to put some of his affairs in order on his behalf. The whole idea is to make a clean break. I need this for my own sanity.

Also someone here made a point of the non being over functioning. I have been guilty of this in the past. Pushing forward through exhaustion... pushing and pushing things in the belief it was for a worthwhile cause. Also slipping into a passive aggressive state of being. Completely out of my depth by that point struggling to find more solutions and more dead ends... hence enters the passive aggressive me... the empty confused,desperate,despair, mute and whirling frustration clutching to passive aggression expression. Guess it’s textbook in light of revelation now.

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear Boogs-

It is a difficult existence when every breath you exhale and every word you utter has to be measured against how it will be interpreted by a disordered person, especially someone you love.  A very hard existence.

Sometimes we have to release our partners so that we can find our health, ourselves... and GOD knows we cannot heal them.

I am sorry for your pain and sadness.  And his.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[Harri]

This thread reached the post maximum and has been locked.  The discussion continues here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=340470.msg13083953#msg13083953

Thank you.