No thoughts?

[ortac77]

Hi

A while since I have posted, had a few personal issues around work but on the whole the past 6 months have been quite 'tolerable' and at times enjoyable but I am finding myself in a troubling place at the moment as life with my pwBPD seems to be occupying a lot of my thoughts and most of those thoughts are negative TBH.

We have been together for 15 years during which time I have dealt with some horrendous situations, alcohol abuse, rages, self harm, suicide attempts and physical abuse. Over the past few years things have calmed down a lot, I made great efforts to learn about the illness and my partner eventually completed DBT which finished over a year ago and yes all of this has helped. At the same time I tried to ensure that I had clear boundaries and also took myself 'out' of the relationship by developing hobbies and ensuring that I created some enjoyable pursuits for myself.

BUT... what has become increasingly clear to me is that I am not in a 'relationship' at least not in one that I am enjoying and it comes down to this I think. Where I am now pursuing my own hobbies and getting in touch with my feelings I am becoming more aware of how much my partner isolates, from life generally and from me as well. For the past 4-5 months he does nothing, never goes out, never wants to do anything, avoids any 'domesticity' and when I try to engage he just says he feels nothing/has no thoughts.

In a relationship (normal) one should be able to talk and I get increasingly frustrated by this total lack of communication. It looks like depression from the outside and I have asked him to consider going to the GP - he hasn't of course and instead sleeps all day and spends most nights watching TV or on his computer.

What I see is a selfish and lazy 'slob'. One that takes little self care and has no interest in anything (judgemental thoughts - not expressed as such). When I try to talk about it he says he feels nothing and thinks nothing. I try to avoid nagging and have expressed concern for his welfare and at the same time the effect that this behaviour is having on me (us?).

Result -Zilch, Nada - hence my amateur diagnosis of depression but also an awareness of the negative effect on me, which is as if I live on my own but am having my workload increased due to his behaviours - which is making me angry and resentful and rather stupidly making me feel selfish for wanting a more fulfilling relationship.

I love this person, but I hate the isolation and am coming to realise that this is not how I want life to be, this phase many pass and I will keep my contact with my hobbies and the outside world - maybe the more I engage the more he withdraws? As I say lots of troubling thoughts at the moment but no answers so sharing my thoughts and feelings here

In peace

[Notwendy]

I have read that when we enter a romantic relationship, we "match" our partners in some ways, emotionally. One term I have seen is "differentiation" which has to do with our boundaries and level of enmeshment. When one person in the relationship makes some personal changes with this, then it feels as if there is a mismatch.

At this point, some possibilities are there. While we are not able to change someone else, the partner may feel the discomfort of the "mismatch" and begin to grow emotionally as well. Or not- the mismatch persists and the relationship is strained and may end. But growth can open the possibility of improvement, and is generally a positive thing.

It seems you have become less enmeshed and now don't feel the same kind of "fit" you did as before. Rather than see this as something wrong- is it an opportunity for growth? If your partner is depressed, this could be difficult for him, but he's already shown willingness to seek professional help, and may need it again.

Maybe it would give you some clarity if he got a good evaluation and the two of you knew what was going on. If he's depressed- then you know- and then there can be a treatment plan. Once you know the situation, it could help you decide what to do from there. While the DBT clearly helped, he may need additional support from a mental health professional at this time.

[ortac77]

NotWendy

You may be right in your response here. The problem is that we cannot seem to communicate at any meaningful level and when I have tried (gently) to suggest that it may help to see the GP and consider further help it goes nowhere.

Essentially if I try to tackle this I am told by him that he is using his DBT skills to 'feel nothing/think nothing' - that is not in anyway what I believe DBT involves, DBT is not about shutting down. It just feels (to me) a maladaptive coping mechanism but without using drugs or alcohol to induce it.

There definitely is a mismatch here, I want to engage with life, he wants to withdraw from it. Its sad but I cannot (and don't want to) force him to change, just does not feel like I can do anymore at the moment other than deal with my own feelings about it.

[sweetheart]

chronic feelings of emptiness and ennui are in my experience symptomatic of BPD.
This is an interesting read (mods if not allowed as a reference source apologies)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/18684053/

For my dbpdh low moods and negativity are is his default position in life even when he has been relatively stable. He is constantly seeking to fill the emptiness with some form of stimulation which is nearly always resultant in further dissatisfaction and/or more self destructive behaviours..
My h’s illness also went in cycles, so periods of low mood, lack of motivation and long periods of withdrawing from life were very normal for him.
I think for those individuals that meet the criteria for diagnosis this is a pervasive, debilitating illness, and at its centre are the profound difficulties that SO’s experience trying to navigate what this illness means to their relationship.

For you the feelings of isolation are very normal when in a relationship with a pw a pervasive mental illness. Wanting more reciprocity is normal too, and it is tough when you are left hanging so to speak.

Coming to terms with all that this illness brings into a relationship is very difficult.



.

[ortac77]

Thanks for the link, interesting read. Thanks also for your reply - this is I know one of the symptoms of BPD and is very difficult to deal with, not helped I think by my natural inclinations of being a 'problem solver'!

Actually I really can do nothing about it apart from consider how it affects me, there is an increasing realisation that I am not really in a relationship except as a 'carer', perhaps the more I have become involved with others the more I realise it. Perhaps I have to accept that from time to time I will resent it and feel unfulfilled or that I have to move on.

Its sad to feel this way but as ever reassuring to know via these boards that I am not alone, it is indeed an horrible pervasive and debilitating illness!

In Peace

[Forgiveness]

As a non-expert I also think this is depression. But more importantly, it is his state and you can't fix it. I think now is the time to radically focus on what YOU want. Do you want a solo camping trip in the mountains? Do you want to go out dancing and feel alive? Do you want to go to the SPCA and play with kittens? Taking care of yourself will bring clarity. Sharing here and writing is always helpful. Be kind to yourself and even spoil yourself. It's time.

[AskingWhy]

chronic feelings of emptiness and ennui are in my experience symptomatic of BPD.
This is an interesting read (mods if not allowed as a reference source apologies)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/18684053/

I agree with this.  The emptiness and boredom of BPD can be made worse with clinical depression, so the symptoms overlap.

[ortac77]

 Well today there was a change and not a positive one but maybe predictable. I am away with work at the moment which takes me away from home for a few days. The low mood/depressive symptoms he has been exhibiting for weeks have now turned to anger so I was treated to a tirade of nasty texts this morning.

In essence how he is indifferent to me, wishes he lived alone, only likes me for my money and hopes I die. Kind of charming start to the day but familiar ground, he used to do it a lot until I learnt not to react (the texts don't even upset me now). So I am not reacting but I do fear he is on slippery slope, this usually leads to increasingly harmful behaviours and there is very little I can do about it other than treat myself with kindness.

In peace

[ortac77]

I have been re reading "loving someone with borderline personality disorder".

It has helped to remind me of the complex facets of this illness and that try as I may I can never really comprehend the whirlwind that must be going in his mind. I think the best thing I can do for the moment is work on staying calm and focused for myself. Be available when I return from work but not 'push' for any contact.

His behaviour at the moment is one I have experienced before I think that he has been pushing down thoughts and emotions for quite a few months and in one way the nasty texts are letting some of it surface - albeit in an inappropriate way.

In peace

I will also take time to re-read the DBT workbook.

[Notwendy]

I think the best thing I can do for the moment is work on staying calm and focused for myself.

I agree. The term I use for what he said to you is "word vomit".  What I've noticed is it seems to be similar to when a child has eaten something that gave them a stomach ache and throws up. The child then feels better afterwards.

Pw BPD have difficulty with their own uncomfortable feelings. They tend to project them. They may also perceive them as coming from someone else, not their own. I think the dysregulations serve to "get rid" of the feelings. On the other side though, being subjected to this isn't pleasant. They may feel better afterwards, but being the recipient of word vomit doesn't feel better. Still if they feel better they assume others do too.

While I don't think anyone should tolerate verbal abuse- I think it does help to not be reactive to it and to stay calm, otherwise the situation escalates.

He's having a bad day and let it out on you.

On the other hand, he needs professional help and I hope you can help convince him to get some. That's the tough part, getting someone to accept professional help.

[ortac77]

"word vomit' yes I like that!

Yes notWendy the tough part will be to convince him to get further help. He never really finished DBT last year and has not really been using this skills he had learned. Just refreshing my DBT knowledge to check I am doing the best I can.

I am staying focused on me for now, only thing I can do.

In Peace

[Notwendy]

I am staying focused on me for now, only thing I can do.

In Peace



Yes, that is the best thing you can do. It will also do a world of good for you, and also to not escalate the situation between you.

[ortac77]

I'm home now and not doing anything to escalate the situation. I haven't seen him, he is ensconced in his room and clearly has not eaten anything for the few days I was away, he has fed the cats though!

It's part of the cycle, dysregulates - blames me for all his ills, locks self away and takes no personal care. He wants me to rescue him and then the cycle can start again. Having fallen fo it in the past I do not feel inclined to this time although I am of course am concerned for his wellbeing. Perhaps I should contact the Doctor on Monday, it feels a bit like passing on the problem but might at least help me feel I am doing something positive to help indirectly?

Other than that its a nice weather forecast for Sunday so think a nice walk in the country might be the best policy for me to pursue :-)

In peace

[Notwendy]

I guess how much he is in danger and how much professional treatment he needs- would be a deciding factor.

If he's acting out -not eating isn't going to hurt him for a while. Taking care of ourselves- eating, bathing, is an adult responsibility. You aren't responsible for him eating or not.

However, if he's to the point of being truly ill, or self harm is a fear, then calling his doctor, or even 911 may be necessary. In this case, you have determined he needs professional help. You aren't a therapist, it's beyond your abilities. If he needs help then turning this over to them is a caring decision.

However, unless he is deemed to be mentally incompetent or a danger to himself or others, he would have to consent to treatment I think ,

[ortac77]

Thanks NotWendy

Its good to check in here and thinking it through you are right - he is not in danger at the moment so I will hold off unless that situation changes.

In Peace

[ortac77]

Well he has shut himself away for 72 hours, I have heard him moving around during the night so know he is alive!. In the meantime have been looking after me and tomorrow I go away for 3 days with my work. Usually by now I would have done anything to 'restore the peace' but this time although it does make me feel uncomfortable I am standing firm. Guess will see how the land lies when I return on Thursday or if I get any more nasty texts when I am at work.

Its a shame - he was doing well and I still have little idea of what has triggered this episode apart from me making more of my own life - perhaps in the BPD world that is taken as abandonment?

In peace

[AskingWhy]

I have been re reading "loving someone with borderline personality disorder".

Reading books is empowering, and your are less likely to be blindsided or thing something you did caused the person's illness.

Keep reading and working on understanding your partner, but in the meantime, do something nice for yourself.  Try not to be too consumed with what this person is trying to do with your life. 

[confusedbybdp]

 

Dear ortac77,

It sounds like depression to me, too.  I have a diagnosis of major depression (since 1996), and thankfully, it is well managed with meds.  The description of your husband's behavior seems so classic - no energy, self-isolating, no thoughts, just a blank existence.  And obviously a person's depression affects others in the family, so I'm not surprised that it is having a negative affect on you.

I don't see BPD here, at least not in your description.  Does he have rapid mood swings, always feels the "victim" of other people and life in general, gets really angry or rages?  My uBPDexbf was a "quiet" or "waif" BPD, and it was the mood swings and always feeling like a victim, as well as not being able to tolerate being alone that tipped me off.  His outbursts and rages didn't come until much later in the r/s.  If your husband doesn't display these traits, I think I would be leaning toward depression, as you said.  Of course, we can't diagnose your husband, but if he does suffer from BPD, it would not be unusual for him to suffer from depression as well.  They often go together, as you probably know.

You might try going to the doctor with your husband.  If he goes alone, he may not speak up for himself or may not want to admit how he feels inside.  He also might not have the energy or desire to engage honestly with his GP.

I hope that helps!

[ortac77]

It's not my opinion he has BPD, he was diagnosed some years ago and exhibits most of the classic symptoms - he is also I believe suffering from depression and after a difficult two weeks I finally persuaded him to see the Dr on Friday. At least that was some progress.

He is being referred back to MH services locally, although in the past they have frankly proved of little help.  He needs further DBT, he will not get it from them, his previous therapist has offered further help but he is still resisting contacting her and of course he has to be the one to take that initiative but instead the depression is driving the 'whats the point' thinking.

I think for me I simply have reached that point of compassion burnout, TBH he is just an irritation to me at the moment and as unfair as that may sound it's how I feel at the moment.

[sweetheart]

Compassion burnout is very common when a partner needs more care than you really are wanting or able to give. Irritation, frustration and anger can all be part of being burnt out emotionally. Burnout can be acute and chronic..

I wonder if It might help if you felt able to shift  the emphasis  of how you are feeling from your partner to you. So you feel irritable rather than he being an irritant because of his lack of volition. It’s a subtle shift but it helps me reframe my feelings and find out exactly what’s going on emotionally for me.

You mentioned at the beginning of the thread that your role feels as though it is shifting more from partner to carer. I accepted the role of carer to my h, but it became a role that could never really be fulfilled. Where I gave there was always more to give and I found myself just not wanting to give anymore. It was a gaping unfillable hole.

You are absolutely right that your SO does have to take responsibility for his MH by accessing the DBT therapist and it was for me exhausting to witness that inertia and self-destructive part of the personality that prevents them from doing this.

Allowing your SO to bear the consequences of his actions is important, which might mean an admission to hospital or further decline. I found it was better to step in if I felt risks were increasing, or capacity was diminishing, but I felt less emotionally compromised the less I tried to sort out my h’s poor choices. Ultimately they were still his choices. It was tough though, but it kept me sane.

[ortac77]

"Sweetheart" - you make some very good points. I do realise that my irritability, frustration and yes - anger are something I must own. I do think you are right that it is a form of burnout on my part - I suspect any of us dealing with a pwBPD keep hitting these points periodically because even when we endeavour to do everything that is recommended, listen, validate etc we will always get blindsided by emotions in them that make no sense and when we are doing our best I think exhaustion and burnout are inevitable from time to time.

I think my problem is that in my mid 60's I look forward to a life with less pressure, not more. I acknowledge that my default position in life has always been to rescue although I have learnt the hard way that a pwBPD learns nothing until they experience the consequences of their actions. But what does one do when having seemingly learnt once they keep repeating those behaviours? It is a form of self- destruct, whenever things start going well they act to destroy.

It is of course tragic to watch however it becomes increasingly difficult to see a way forward when it is affecting me - I do a lot to distance myself from the effects but there comes a point when it wears me down such that I start dreading contact with him. That is in itself a recognition that I am suffering from compassion burnout.

[Cat Familiar]

Your feelings are completely understandable.  

As a veteran of two marriages to pwBPD, I know that some pwBPD are more difficult to live with than others. Having learned some tools, I can successfully navigate those times when my current husband is difficult, with little emotional impact upon me. Granted, I wish that he was more mentally healthy, but no point in spending much time there.

However, even if I had mastered all the tools we teach here, I doubt that I could have survived well in my first marriage. He created chaos in my life (and apparently continues) to act in destructive ways.

To me, all relationships are a balance of give and take. If that balance becomes too weighted on one side, the relationship becomes dysfunctional.

How would you assess your relationship on this scale?

[sweetheart]

Cat makes a great point that even utilising all the skills and strategies available on here are sometimes not enough to halt the dysfunction.

I used the skills with my h, and whilst they reduced the conflict and extreme nature of his dysregulations, they made no real difference to the pervasive nature of the illness.

The skills, did however change me, which I wasn’t really expecting. They helped me put emotional distance in between me and the dysfunction, and helped me work out what belonged where.

The other thing that happened along the way, is my relationship with my h reached its end for me. The skills,  I think if the pwbpd meets the clinical diagnostic criteria, made me realise a relationship with someone who cannot meet their own support and recovery needs was just not sustainable. It took me quite a while to get to this point. FOG kept me very stuck for a while.

My husband and I have been together for 14 years, and I am in my mid fifties, we have an 11 year old son. My h needs care and support that I know longer want to provide. I don’t want to be his carer anymore. I realised I wanted to be his wife, but he is not capable of that kind of relationship with me anymore.

[ortac77]

Thank you for your replies Cat & Sweetheart

It is reassuring to hear, I think you are indeed right that FOG does obscure the situation, perhaps some of that is beginning to clear? I find myself increasingly relishing my time alone or away from him.

It is like a bottomless pit, and much as I might have tried nothing I can do can fill it and I am exhausted from trying, it is perhaps that I recognise that I must find my way forward, one day at a time