Ultimatums(given by the non) your experience

[reluctanthubs]

Question,  Would you as a last ditch attempt to save your spouse and your marriage threaten to separate and divorce if they didn't get targeted specialized help? I will be serving her papers within the next month and this will be the ultimatum.  The legal separation(Divorce from bed and board) will go through the process and she will be evicted from the residence.  The final divorce will not go into effect if she does what demand in terms.

So I just broke up my wife's second affair earlier this month. First was in 2002 but i did not know until 2010.  Had figured out that something was up and put the pieces together and busted her.  She is obviously unrepentant and nearly zero remorse.  I had to leave on a month long work trip shortly after finding out(2 weeks). 

Although I believe the affair is over it was more emotional that physical.  Yeah I know it doesn't help but it points to a bigger issue that she is looking for an "Emotional Connection"  and OBVIOUSLY her husband of nearly 19 years just doesn't "Get Her" SMH.

She has since finding out she had BPD in 2011 she has denied it, violently argued against it and believes I am the one with all of the problems in the relationship.  She is reluctant to do any counseling and is only going forward right now because she needs to get over the public disclosure of her affair, right poor her she is soo hurt.

North Carolina does not take to kindly to adultery and I have solid proof.  She will be in essence kicked to the curb and evicted to force the separation. No alimony, no support whatsoever it also weighs heavily in custody proceedings in the future.  Pretty much the sweetest deal if I wanted out of the Marriage.

I'm going to be using this as a last ditch attempt to get her into DBT therapy.  If she does then great she will have 6 months to a year to prove that she has changed and demonstrated that change.  I am going to give her the chance to save her life honestly.

[Forgiveness]

I don't know much about DBT but from my observation therapy doesn't work when a person is forced into it. They have to want to do it, for themselves.

[formflier]

Do you have anything to lose by giving her an ultimatum?

Best,

FF

[reluctanthubs]

FF my dilemma is that this is a bazooka where a fly swatter would do.  Except the Bazooka makes sure I don't have an issue down the road.  I haven't got a chance to talk to any attorneys yet, but I believe I have a very strong case to go through with it.  At the end of the day I'm not going to get cheated on AGAIN by her at least.
 
My options are no bazooka but that only allows me to leverage our astronomical debt in the divorce.  AND I would likely be the one that would have to move which is bull$h!t because she was the one that cheated.  Even if I wait a while to do it she's still broken and won't get help. I'll still have to put up with that.

If I use the bazooka it makes sure that nearly ANY options she has to hurt me in court are SEVERELY reduced.  A cheater shouldn't get squat in a divorce.  So if I hold such a heavy weapon over her head and leave her with only 2 options it should make it easier for her.

She will either be relatively without anything or she can be partially taken care of on her way to earning her way back into our family.  A very one sided divorce will loom over her head as a motivator to make real change.

So I guess I don't have anything to loose.

[AskingWhy]

RH, I am sorry this is happening to you.  pwBPD make frantic efforts to feel "alive" and they sometimes do this with affairs.  They also turn to drugs, alcohol and other compulsions.  

Just this evening, my uBPD H (who has punched holes in walls, torn out ceiling light fixtures inches from my face, made almost daily divorce threats, called me the worst names you can call a woman, and blamed me for all of it) told he he felt "empty."  This "emptiness" is one of main symptoms of BPD.  He said I made him feel empty.  I told him that was a lie, that he probably felt empty as an adolescent, a young man, and during his first marriage.  (H's first wife is uNPD. She cheated on him and then divorced him to marry her lover; her lover was also married.  X W took custody of the children after an uncontested divorce.  H was too depressed to do much of anything nor call her bluff.)

Adultery is a form of abuse, and BPDs abuse their spouses a great deal.  I hope this ultimatum (having your W served) will get her to understand the gravity of her ignoring her problems.  

Serving your W with divorce papers will prey on your BPD W's worst abandonment fears.

Before you have your W served, and might be forced to go through with the divorce, please read Bill Eddy's, "Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder." Mr. Eddy is a lawyer as well as a social worker, and so understands the games that are played when a pwBPD is involved in a divorce.  The book is about $12 and can be bought online and in e-books.  

Please protect yourself.  A common tactic used by BPD and NPD women in divorce is to make allegations of abuse or abuse against the children.  Courts naturally assume the woman is telling the truth, and will immediately believe her story (liability issues) while investigations take place.  Eventually, innocent men will be exonerated, but your life will be made miserable.

Do not underestimate what a divorce can make a BPD person, who is already unstable, do.

You are lucky your state does not take too well to adultery. 

Be well and be empowered.  

[formflier]

   I haven't got a chance to talk to any attorneys yet, but I believe I have a very strong case to go through with it.  

This worries me a great deal.  It appears to me you are basing many of your options on a legal certainty that the cheating matters (and it may).  I would not consider a legal strategy built around that until and unless an attorney retained by you is advising that you have a strong case, based on the evidence your attorney has examined.

I'm sorry you are in this position.  Thoughtfully evaluate your options.  We are here to help, especially once you have opinions from your legal team.

Best,

FF

[Red5]

North Carolina does not take to kindly to adultery and I have solid proof. 

She will be in essence kicked to the curb and evicted to force the separation.

No alimony, no support whatsoever it also weighs heavily in custody proceedings in the future. 

Pretty much the sweetest deal if I wanted out of the Marriage.

Hello reluctanthubs,

I live in North Carolina too… a few things I've learned (I used to be a Florida resident).

North Carolina is an "equitable distribution" state.

You have to be separated for a period of one (1.) year to file for divorce in North Carolina.

There is no "official" filing of a separation agreement required however, the court "takes the word" of the filing party/parties via a lawyer.

A "do it yourself' divorce means you both agree, so no mediation is required, provided you can both say you've been separated for a years time..

During the one year separation, neither party is allowed to "cohabitate", eg' sex, or else living together under the same roof, ie' the marital home.

If either party moves out of the marital home, then the separation starts on that date… if there is a reconciliation, the one year time starts over… and the judge will take the word of the opposing party/parties.

Once the papers are filed, and the clerk of the court starts the process, the two parties go directly to mediation, before a judge ever looks at the filing… if there is not already a mutual agreement in place, to deal with the marital assess, then everything that is contested is spilt right down the middle, bills, home, cars, boats, savings… everything that is a "mutual asset", ie' both your names are on the "paperwork".

If the two parties cant agree, the clerk (via the judge) just keeps sending you back to "mediation".

The court looks at it as a "no fault state", kind of like Florida does… there is no concern in regards to adultery, other than this construct will validate the "irreconcilable differences" tab, in the granting of the divorce… then the assets are split up, as far as alimony, and support, that will come out in mediation, that's another rabbit hole, time served, length of the marriage, and whom filed first.

The only way to have a party "removed" from the home is by the way of a DV report to the county… if there are kids, either blood or step, then CPS gets involved… and that's NOT a good thing.

You cant just "make her move out", if she leaves, she leaves because she wants too.

If either party leaves "on their own accord"… immediately get a lawyer, and the first thing the lawyer will tell you is to "change the locks".

The person whom leaves the marital domicile, thus abandoning the other spouse, losses the upper hand in mediation… its nearly impossible to regain entry back into the home once either party packs up and leaves, only under a Sheriffs escort to "collect" their "things".

If you are paying the mortgage, don't leave, because you will now be paying the mortgage to a home you can no longer live in, because you left... and if you don't pay the mortgage, the bank will foreclose, and you will be financially ruined.

The bill collectors don't care, whom cheated on whom, or whom is "disordered"… they want their money, so pay the bills, on time, and don't be late with the payments, the court does not like it when you stop paying the bills… mediation… equitable distribution will be very painful if this scenario happens.

If you both have your names on… *joint checking/savings, *vehicle titles, *mortgages, both first, and second… you both are responsible… and she can do whatever she wants, because its both of yours responsibility, if she stops taking responsibility for the family bills, that in both your names, then its up to you to not drop the ball... if she cleans you out, the court doesn't care, because both your names are on the paperwork down at the bank.

This is the BLUF… when you enter the court system (divorce), you are now a court docket, a number… and its the aim of the court to "check'em off" as quickly as possible, "to clear the courts docket"… they don't care whom is doing whom… the court only wants it settled, over, signed off… and closed poste haste, and 'out the door'… ~> "next".

As far as one or the other of you having a "personality disorder"… again, that won't wash in the court, they could care less… unless there was a DV charge, or a felony assault committed, police involvement… a police report filed… maybe someone got hauled off to jail on a Friday night… and you may have to do some "court required therapy" as part of mediation, and usually only if there is a custody issue, if there are kids involved… maybe there was an "injunction filed"… again, because either of you may now have a police report, and on the "docket"... that's the only "disorder" the court gives a crap about… eg' disorderly conduct, resultant in a cruiser and two officers (LEO's) being dispatched to your home…

This is why we hear so much about "high conflict" divorces in regards to borderlines, narcissists, sociopaths et all'… & etc'.

I've gone on too long, sorry, but this is how its going to bowl down in the great state of North Carolina, hope this helps reluctanthubs.

… be careful my friend,

Red5

[Enabler]

Great info Red.

I second Forgiveness that from what I've read, forced therapy is ineffective, typically a person will go through the motions and never reach the point of radically accepting their disordered... without RA there's likely to be any meaningful change in the long term because there is no commitment or belief in the need to change.

Enabler

[reluctanthubs]

Red5, Formflier and Enabler,

Thanks for the concern I would not even be going this route unless I have a SOLID case and I do. This is her second affair in our marriage.

Red5,  In the great state of North Carolina I am fully aware of all of the regular case law stuff you posted above but what you didn't include is NC's wonderful Divorce of Bed and Board.  Regularly the separation goes as you have said the regular way but with a DBB(divorce of bed and board)  it is an "At Fault" action, a court ordered separation to remove spouses that have committed marital misconduct as follows:
- Alcoholism/Drug addiction
- Abandonment
- Maliciously turning out of doors(Changing locks or forcefully keeping them out of the house)
- Cruel and barbarous treatment
- Indignities that make life intolerable
-ADULTERY...YAY

The only misconduct that can bar access to alimony and support is yep you guessed it ADULTERY. I will also include the indignities one as well. Especially since she is the dependent spouse she gets hit even harder because they should know better. I have all of the requisite evidence to include a recorded conversation between me and her that explains why she did it, GPS tracking data, call and text logs and 2 people willing to give sworn statements and willing to testify that she admitted to her that she had the affair.  Her own father is willing to give a sworn statement but not testify.  He has trouble with the law right now.

When I submit and win my claim the following things WILL happen:
- Barred from any alimony claim EVER
- The judgement will weigh HEAVILY on child custody/support claims during the separation process and divorce proceedings.  Additionally for the near year before this happened she in essence abandoned our family to sail, do scout things and work full time as a restaurant server.
- I will not have to pay any attorneys fees for her

Things that will VERY LIKELY happen:
- She will be evicted from the marital home
- She looses ALL rights to all shared marital property.  If I wanted to I could sell the house and all our stuff take the proceeds for myself and she cannot do anything about it.
- She gets ZERO post spousal support.
- She gets ZERO maintenance support
- She is entitled to ZERO of the families finances(I bring home 98% of it anyways)

Now to be fair to her even though she doesn't deserve it and to give her a chance to not ruin her life I'm offering to let her not make the next worst decision of her life.  I will not divorce her(we will be separated though) if she does the following:
- Give me full 100% access to ALL of her digital communication means.  This includes GPS tracking and possible remote audio and video capture.
- Full access to all of her banking and she will deposit her cash tips into said account.  She didn't want to do this before because she was using tip money to sneak around and enjoy time with her affair partner
- GPS tracking of her vehicle
- I choose where she stays.  It will be a rented room and I will approve of the place. I will help pay for the place.
- She goes to the therapist of my choice completes specialized BPD therapy
- Demonstrates that she is getting better this will be a combo of me and the therapist.
- A post nuptial agreement that protects me as far as they can if I decide she has made significant progress.  This to protect me in the event she relapses and or decides to divorce me later.

This is not what I want but she is forcing me into this by taking no responsibility for her actions shifting as much blame to me as she can.  The best part about all of this is that when it happened I put it all out on FB twice.  She can't control the narrative, she can't control the story.  She can't publicly blame me. She has lost all control of the situation and it is refreshing to be the one that holds all the cards.
    

[formflier]

How is it you know all of this and seem very certain, yet have not talked to a lawyer yet?

Best,

FF

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi reluctant-

Seems you DO hold the cards here, at least right now.  But may I ask... and I’m not trying to be “negative” and yes, I fully (from experience) understand the hurt associated with a cheating spouse...

Do you truly WANT to stay married with her?

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[Red5]

reluctanthubs,

https://www.rosen.com/divorce/divorcearticles/divorce-from-bed-and-board/

...wow ; (

I have heard of this before, but wow, what a $hit show that would be, imho,

I went back and read your very first post, and my reply to it... I saw that I compared my own first marriage to yours... same stuff... about to retire from the military... multiple adulturies... two decades of malignant abusive behaviors...

That’s stuff will give you a heart attack man!

... please take care of yourself...

Question... does your wife want to divorce?

... and if she does... what does she “want”?

As I wrote back in February... my first wife just “walked away”, and left... the only thing she stipulated was that I not ask for “child support”... but that was Florida,

This “bed and board” instead of an “absolute” divorce (NC) sounds pretty soul crushing to me,

It sounds like trying to prove adultery under the UCMJ, as I remember even if you had “Polaroids”... the judge (advocate military) really didn’t care... I was a “jury” member towards the end of my career in the USMC one time... a court marshal... the judge threw it all out...

And lawyers cost $, and this bed and board looks like hours and hours of legal work to even get to court... and then she could lawyer up and fight you...

... wow man, I do feel your pains here... I surely do, but please think it through before you unleash the lawyers... keep posting, we are listening!

Red5

[Forgiveness]

I know this is not what you want to hear but I need to state the obvious. Whether two people are married, separated, or divorced, nobody gets to ask for the things on your list below. You get to divorce her but you don't get to control her. I haven't heard you say one nice thing about her, so you'd both be better off divorced. No human gets to control another in the way you have outlined below.

Now to be fair to her even though she doesn't deserve it and to give her a chance to not ruin her life I'm offering to let her not make the next worst decision of her life.  I will not divorce her(we will be separated though) if she does the following:
- Give me full 100% access to ALL of her digital communication means.  This includes GPS tracking and possible remote audio and video capture.
- Full access to all of her banking and she will deposit her cash tips into said account.  She didn't want to do this before because she was using tip money to sneak around and enjoy time with her affair partner
- GPS tracking of her vehicle
- I choose where she stays.  It will be a rented room and I will approve of the place. I will help pay for the place.
- She goes to the therapist of my choice completes specialized BPD therapy
- Demonstrates that she is getting better this will be a combo of me and the therapist.
- A post nuptial agreement that protects me as far as they can if I decide she has made significant progress.  This to protect me in the event she relapses and or decides to divorce me later.

    

[Forgiveness]

Also, I don't really understand your motive. You don't love her and don't want to share a bed with her, but you just don't want her sleeping with anyone else? Why not just get a divorce and let her sleep with whomever she wants? What is your ideal life for yourself? Surely it's not an unhappy loveless marriage where you monitor someone's every move?

At the end of the day I'm not going to get cheated on AGAIN by her at least.

[ForeverDad]

I know this is not what you want to hear but I need to state the obvious. Whether two people are married, separated, or divorced, nobody gets to ask for the things on your list below. You get to divorce her but you don't get to control her. I haven't heard you say one nice thing about her, so you'd both be better off divorced. No human gets to control another in the way you have outlined below.

Though my state is not yours, if I had presented such draconian, all or nothing, terms then her lawyer could have easily claimed, "He is a controller and should not control his wife."  (Actually her lawyer did actually claim that and I'm a quite reasonable guy.)  I would have looked very bad.  She is an adult and the system allows an adult to pretty much live his/her own life.

Let her Go.  If she wants to stay and stop yielding to affairs, she will.  If she doesn't, you can't force it.  My court, after 8 years, stated she needed counseling but wouldn't force/order my ex into therapy.  That's the experience of most of us.  Yes, you can make therapy a condition for continuing the marriage but you can't force her to change nor guarantee success.

Are the children grown?  You haven't mentioned much about them.  I'm concerned that you haven't listed them as one of your top priorities.