Setting boundaries: is this too much?

[pursuingJoy]

I could use some help. Husband has asked me to write a list of things I want. I want to express them as boundaries, so I referred to this site's resources.

I have this nagging paranoid thought that he may move his mom without my consent. It didn't help that last week in a fight he stated that he has every right to make plans for our house with his mom. I did some research and learned that I would have no legal recourse other than to treat her well enough not to be charged with neglect, or divorce him. I'm freaking out.

In the spirit of overthinking, I read several articles yesterday about difficult MIL's that said that I should just be more loving, that it's on me. Also, our MC doesn't believe he would move her in without my consent.

In the name of preserving my sanity and taking away their excuse that I don't communicate well enough...is the list below overboard?

1. I do not want your mom to move into our home. If you move her into our home without my consent, I will file for divorce.

2. If your mom moves close to us, I want to establish clear boundaries, such as calling to check if it is a good time for both of us before visiting. I do not want her to have a spare key to our house. If you give her a spare key, I will change the locks. If she shows up unannounced, she will be turned away.
 
3. I do not want your mom to know personal information about me, to include how I feel about her, conflicts I have with you, my mental or physical wellbeing, or that of my children. If you share personal information about me to her, it will result in a loss of respect and trust, and I will stop sharing personal information with you.

4. I do not want your mom to be informed about our finances, our financial plans, financial needs, or projects we need money for. Doing so will result in a loss of respect and will violate trust.

5. I do not want you to ask for your mom to pay for things for you or take out any more loans in your mom’s name or against her house. Doing so will result in a loss of respect and will damage our relationship.

TIA
pj

[formflier]

I would encourage you to read the article below.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

Then revisit your list and see what adjustments you believe are needed, in light of what you learned in the article.

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

Can you go back to your list and define the core value behind each of your items? Being able to state your core value in a loving, positive way can be a good way to have a conversation with your husband st it your boundaries. After all, much of what you want is focused on a successful marriage, right?

[Moonlight93]

In my experience ultimatums do not work they only make the pwBPD angry and triggered.
I would change the wording and make it about how you would feel.
For example...I would feel really on edge if your mum surprises us and shows up at our home unplanned. I would like her to feel welcome but if I am just getting out the shower or in the middle of a movie and she is here I will feel rushed and stressed to accommodate.

also try the DEARMAN acronym to help you structure your answers

I hope this is helpful

[pursuingJoy]

Thanks all.  For clarity's sake, although he has learned some very unhealthy communication techniques from his uPBD mom, I don't think he is BPD. I suspect emotional incest, I know he is seriously enmeshed.

Challenges:

1. Clear and direct is what my husband has requested. I was hoping to leave values out because he doesn't care. When I explain my value (Edited to include value: I value and want to protect our time, privacy and relationship. For this reason, I do not want your mom to move into our home.) his eyes glaze over, or he gets hung up on one point and argues for what he wants (that's nice but it's a luxury not everyone can afford, mom needs a place to go and she's moving in). I rewrote it to include values as you suggested. Because he doesn't care, it won't make a difference, but boundaries are about protecting values, not controlling another person's behavior, right?

2. I genuinely believe that he has no idea what's on the line. He thinks all of this is my problem to 'get over.' I have never mentioned divorce to him. I do see how ultimatums are counterproductive and might just anger or scare him. I have also been told by my husband and MC that I'm too cautious in how I phrase things and they want me to be more direct. I'm trying to be direct, but productively so, and your feedback has helped tremendously with that.

3. I'm terrified that he will move her in no matter what I say. I have absolutely no control over whether he does or not, nor do I have any legal protection if he does. In my thinking, the least I can do is communicate clearly that if he crosses that line, it will lead to divorce, because it will...whether I initiate it immediately or it happens over time.

4. Allow me to vent - he uses ultimatums all. the. time. His mom won't speak to me because I don't call her by the deadline she invented (but never communicated), and he says, "See what you've done? I hope you understand that this means I'm spending every holiday with her from now on." I get that he's just trying to control me into doing what he wants, he's scared and feeling guilt about his mom I guess? But yeah, ultimatums suck. I've seen a really nasty side of him in the past four months.

Back to being productive, is this better?


1. I value and want to protect our time, privacy and relationship. Moving your mom into our house would create daily strain, one that our relationship would not survive. For this reason, I do not want your mom to move into our home. I am happy to partner with you to find other resources to ensure that she receives the care she needs.

2. I value and want to protect our time, privacy and relationship. If your mom moves close to us, I would like to work with you to establish boundaries such as calling to check if it is a good time for both of us before visiting, scheduling time to visit and refraining from giving her a spare key to our house. This may initially create tension and discomfort but I want to work with you to consistently enforce our boundaries to protect our relationship.  
 
3. I value my privacy and believe that there is some information that should stay between a man and wife. When you visit with your mom, please refrain from talking about me or sharing personal information about me, to include anything sexual, how I feel about her, conflicts I have with you, my mental or physical wellbeing, or that of my children. Sharing personal information will ultimately result in a loss of respect and trust and create a break in my relationship with you, and it will create further tension in my relationship with your mom.

4. We are responsible adults that are in a position to manage our own needs, debts and finances. Your mom has her own finances to worry about, we have ours, and healthy families understand the need for financial differentiation/independence. Our finances, financial plans, financial needs, and projects we need money for is all information that should stay between us.  I also do not want you to ask for your mom to pay for things for us or take out any more loans in your mom’s name or against her house. Sharing information about our finances with your mom, or taking out a loan against her house, will ultimately result in a loss of respect and trust, create a break in my relationship with you, and it will create further tension in my relationship with your mom.

Closer?
pj

[formflier]

Closer..yes.

Why not say something along the lines of since this is our home your value is that decisions about adding people to the home are made jointly.

Also state that you want to support him and are open to learning more about his Mom's needs and how she may best be cared for.

See where I'm going with this?

As an aside...an awful lot of this seems "about him" and you twisting yourself to "fit him" or "what he wants".  Do I have this right?

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

To be more blunt, should " relationship" be "marriage"? He doesn't seem to be hearing that the marriage needs to be a priority.

[pursuingJoy]

Why not say something along the lines of since this is our home your value is that decisions about adding people to the home are made jointly.

Thanks FF. Great addition. I will include it. I've stated this value repeatedly in various discussions only to be ignored, but I'm reminding myself this is about protecting a value, not about eliciting a response.

Also state that you want to support him and are open to learning more about his Mom's needs and how she may best be cared for.

See where I'm going with this?

Point taken. This is harder to add, I have to consciously bypass the hurt and resentment.

As an aside...an awful lot of this seems "about him" and you twisting yourself to "fit him" or "what he wants".  Do I have this right?

I'm sure you have something right but help me out. Are you saying that I'm focused on blaming him for this current conflict, not taking responsibility, trying to control him? Or that I'm overly considering his needs, not mine? I feel like I'm scraping together the little dignity and worth I have left and patching it together into something presentable, a final stand to preserve my heart. I'll hold on as long as I can, knowing I don't have any leverage. I also know I'm angry and hurting, so not necessarily in the best state of mind.

Anything helps. Thanks FF.
pj

[pursuingJoy]

To be more blunt, should " relationship" be "marriage"? He doesn't seem to be hearing that the marriage needs to be a priority.

Good question GaGrl. I guess I equate a healthy relationship with a healthy marriage. Prioritizing our relationship is prioritizing our marriage. Can you explain what you're thinking? Maybe you're referring to marriage, the institution that creates stability for others around us?

He knows he is supposed to prioritize his marriage and often insists that he does. I explain that when he calls his mom his best friend, calls her in moments of crisis then calls me to report what they decided, when they discuss plans without me to build on our property - those things don't make me feel like I am or our marriage is a priority.  Sometimes he says he understands, other times he disagrees. I try to tell him you can't disagree with how someone feels, a feeling is a feeling. He disagrees with that

He isn't mindfully doing any of this as much as he doesn't ever want to see his mom distressed or cause her pain. He will do anything to avoid that, including hurting me. That's the lesser of two evils, to him. That's how he chooses her.

[GaGrl]

I don't hear that he considers your marriage to be a priority. I don't hear that he "gets" that the situation is critical enough that the relationship in jeopardy means the marriage is in jeopardy.

There is a difference between feelings, words, and actions. His feelings are very uncomfortable, and he cannot soothe them easily. His solution to soothing those emotions is to placate his mother, so the feelings go away. He then uses words to justify what he did, but the words don't make up for the behavior that hurt you. And it happens again, so it's a vicious cycle.

Because what is driving it is not his value that you and the marriage are his life's priority -- his priority is alleviating his own negative feelings and discomfort about his mother.

He must be so confused and miserable.

Perhaps work with your T regarding how to put your marriage at the forefront of decision-making might be time and effort well-spent? It would certainly let you be as blunt as your T seems to want you to be.

[formflier]

  He will do anything to avoid that, including hurting me. That's the lesser of two evils, to him. That's how he chooses her.

Does he actually say this?

I would also no conflate who he talks to about automobile repairs with who he chooses to live in the marital home (without explicit agreement).

Best,

FF

[pursuingJoy]

There is a difference between feelings, words, and actions. His feelings are very uncomfortable, and he cannot soothe them easily. His solution to soothing those emotions is to placate his mother, so the feelings go away. He then uses words to justify what he did, but the words don't make up for the behavior that hurt you. And it happens again, so it's a vicious cycle.

Exactly! He genuinely believes that he prioritizes our marriage, so the thought that his mom is hurting me (and that he's not protecting me) conflicts with his picture of his family and two of his core values. He has to minimize my experience to make sense of his world and maintain this image.

You gave the best nutshell description of all time. It's so helpful to have the mechanics broken down.

Because what is driving it is not his value that you and the marriage are his life's priority -- his priority is alleviating his own negative feelings and discomfort about his mother.

He must be so confused and miserable.

What you've all shared has given me new perspective on just how confused and miserable he must be. He values marriage first, but doesn't understand his emotional enmeshment with his mom or how to manage his panic, so he resorts to knee-jerk reactions and feels tugged between two people.

Perhaps work with your T regarding how to put your marriage at the forefront of decision-making might be time and effort well-spent? It would certainly let you be as blunt as your T seems to want you to be.

This is exactly what we're working on with the MC and how I've tried to approach conversations. We'll see what happens.

Does he actually say this?

What he says: "If I ever saw mom do anything to hurt you, I would defend you at all cost."  (He is protective of me in other settings.)

What he does: allow her to say and do things (eg, criticizing my cooking,  calling me by his ex-wife's name for over a year, being intrusive, inappropriately sharing really sensitive information with others). Because he allows it, I assume he doesn't notice it, so I share that I was hurt or upset. Because he couldn't live with himself knowing that he hadn't protected me, he minimizes. Without exception he justifies her behavior and projects (that's just the way she is, she can't help it, you're too sensitive, she didn't mean it, let it go, you just hold grudges, what's the big deal, you just don't care about family). 

On the other hand, his mom's feelings were hurt four months ago and he yelled at me for two hours straight. Since, his emotional response to her hurt is very strong, ranging from depression > panic > anger > condescension > blame, depending on what she is feeling.

I would also no conflate who he talks to about automobile repairs with who he chooses to live in the marital home (without explicit agreement).

Agreed, yes! My issue wasn't who he talked to about auto repairs, but his financial and emotional dependence on her. 

We agreed long ago and on many occasions, that financial independence from his mom is important (for everyone's sake) and that he shouldn't be asking her for money or taking loans from her. 

When his truck broke down, he called his mom to ask her to pay for the transmission, in direct conflict with something we'd agreed not to do. He called me three hours later when everything was settled, maybe because he didn't want me to talk him out of it?

I asked him why he called his mom (2 hours away) not his wife (10 minutes away) in an emergency. He said his mom is his best friend. I explained that I am available to help and would be happy to be his first phone call in an emergency.

When I had this conv with him, he seemed to take it to heart and he apologized. I say "seemed" because we've made agreements before but behavior doesn't change. I appreciated the validation, though. At least he didn't fight me.

Suggested edits in italics. I am wondering if 'put our marriage at risk' sounds threatening.

1. I value and want to protect our time, privacy and marriage. I also believe that decisions about our home and finances should be made jointly. Moving your mom into our house would create daily strain, one that our marriage would not survive. For this reason, I do not want your mom to move into our home. I would love to work with you to learn what she needs and find resources to ensure that she receives the care she needs.

2. I value and want to protect our time, privacy and marriage. If your mom moves close to us, I would like to work with you to establish boundaries such as calling to check if it is a good time for both of us before visiting, scheduling time to visit and refraining from giving her a spare key to our house. This may initially create tension and discomfort but I want to work with you to consistently enforce agreed-upon boundaries designed to protect our marriage. 
 
3. I value my privacy and believe that there is some information that should stay between a man and wife. When you visit with your mom, please refrain from talking about me or sharing personal information about me, to include anything sexual, how I feel about her, conflicts I have with you, my mental or physical wellbeing, or that of my children. Sharing personal information will ultimately result in a loss of respect and trust, put our marriage at risk, and create further tension in my relationship with your mom.

4. We are responsible adults that are in a position to manage our own needs, debts and finances. Your mom has her own finances to worry about, we have ours, and healthy families understand the need for financial differentiation/independence. Our finances, financial plans, financial needs, and projects we need money for is all information that should stay between us.  I also do not want you to ask for your mom to pay for things for us or take out any more loans in your mom’s name or against her house. Sharing information about our finances with your mom, or taking out a loan against her house, will ultimately result in a loss of respect and trust, put our marriage at risk, and create further tension in my relationship with your mom.

[Methuen]

Hi PJ

Oh this has to be difficult/traumatic for you.

WHY do you think he has he asked you for a list of things you want?  Do you feel it is because he wants to work WITH you to resolve the problem (negotiate, meet you in the middle etc), or, is it to either check off or cross out the ones he can live with (i.e. make the decisions and exercise his control)?

A marriage is a union ideally based on respect, equality, trust...and a few other important items.  

Are the two of you able to communicate about where you each feel you are in the marriage with regard to 1) feeling respected, 2) equal (in decision making), and 3) able to trust the other (eg privacy of relationship, personal finances etc)?

It sounds like there is a power imbalance in your relationship if you have fear that he would move your mom in without your consent.  It also sounds like you are feeling that your MIL has more power in the marriage than you do as the wife...what do you think?

There is a lot going on in each of your points.  I would simplify each point to just one point, and maybe lengthen the list instead if need be.  Think of it as bullet points, but in sentence form.  Simplify simplify simplify.  Think about what will be easiest for him to grasp onto and work with, one point at a time.

Your list is a work in progress.  Take your time with it.  Maybe share it with a counsellor?  I am actually not comfortable making suggestions for someone I know, much less someone I don't know, but I can hear the desperation and appreciate the scope of the problem.  Knowing what desperation feels like with my own ubpd mom, and knowing how desperate I am to hear from ANYONE on this board, I can only hope that you will take any suggestions made with a HUGE grain of salt.  I eagerly wait for responses to my posts.  That is why I am responding here.  I have a few ideas, but ultimately you must trust your own instincts.  I am in the beginning stages of trying to separate EMOTION from THOUGHTS with my mom?  Do you know what I mean?  So please just take my suggestions below as that...just suggestions...which may not be helpful to you at all because I'm not really qualified to give them, and I don't really know you.  

1. I value and want to protect our time, privacy and marriage. I also believe that decisions about our home and finances should be made jointly. Moving your mom into our house would create daily strain, one that our marriage would not survive I fear could jeopardize our marriage. For this reason, I do not want your mom to move into our home. I would love to work with you to learn what she needs and find resources to ensure that she receives the care she needs. (This is great because you have offered a solution)

2.  I value and want to protect our individual time together, our privacy, and the sanctity of our marriage.  I am afraid this would be lost if she moved in with us.  Perhaps we can look for another mutually acceptable solution together.

3. I value and want to protect our time, privacy and marriage. If your mom moves closer to us, we need to work together as a couple and agree on boundaries (such as calling to check if it is a good time for both of us before visiting, scheduling time to visit and refraining from giving her a spare key to our house). This may initially create tension and discomfort but I want to work with you to consistently enforce agreed-upon boundaries designed to protect our marriage.  (Great last line)
 
3. I value my privacy and believe that there is some information that should stay between a man and wife. When you visit with your mom, please refrainthis sounds like you are begging and gives him the power) from I should not be a topic of conversation unless I am present.  It crosses a boundary to talk with her about me or share personal information about me, to include anything sexual, how I feel about her, conflicts I have with you, my mental or physical wellbeing, or that of my children. These are things I share with you because I am married to you.  I need to feel safe that I can trust you also share those boundaries.  So that you know, I don't discuss my private affairs about us with my family members.  Sharing personal information will ultimately result in a loss of respect and trust, and puts our marriage at risk.  (Let this be your last thought)., and create further tension in my relationship with your mom.

4. We are responsible adults that are in a position to manage our own needs, debts and finances. Your mom has her own finances to worry about, we have ours, and healthy families understand the need for financial differentiation/independence.  These are important boundaries to maintain in healthy relationships.  Our decisions need to be our own.Our finances, financial plans, financial needs, and projects we need money for is all information that should stay between us. (You've already said this) I also do not want you to ask cannot agree to asking for your mom to pay for things for us or take out any more loans in your mom’s name or against her house.  This gives her power over our decision making as a couple.  Sharing information about our finances with your mom, or taking out a loan against her house, will ultimately result in a loss of respect and trust, put our marriage at risk, and create further tension in my relationship with your mom.(You've already said this)

I love you, but am afraid that your feelings for your mother could come between us in our marriage.   Can we work together to find a way to support your mom, but also protect the love in our marriage and maintain our own personal space?  What do you think?

Again, these are just thoughts from an unqualified person.  Again, do you have a counsellor or therapist you can discuss this with?

 

[pursuingJoy]

Hi Methuen  Thanks for your kindness and for taking a calculated risk in responding. I appreciate and respect your disclaimers and want to reassure you that the words will ultimately be my own. They have to be. Feedback here is simply a helpful check in a time when my emotions are running high, blinders are on and I am aware that I'm not thinking clearly. My desire is to honor his initiative by providing a list that is as effective as I can make it. My plan is to show this to the MC before giving it to him because she knows our situation intimately.

WHY do you think he has he asked you for a list of things you want?  Do you feel it is because he wants to work WITH you to resolve the problem (negotiate, meet you in the middle etc), or, is it to either check off or cross out the ones he can live with (i.e. make the decisions and exercise his control)?

It's a frustrated effort on his part to make me go away. He wants a list to check off to make me happy. In the spirit of realistic expectations, I'm in the process of letting go (with grief, anger, resentment, and hurt) any hope of him truly understanding or working with me.

In asking for a list, at least he is showing some initiative. In the short term, instead of expecting him to empathize or agree, or argue so that he understands, my goal is to continue to work with the MC to change our communication patterns. In the long term, I feel it's necessary to think through whether I can realistically deal with the enmeshment or need to make alternative decisions about our relationship.

Are the two of you able to communicate about where you each feel you are in the marriage with regard to 1) feeling respected, 2) equal (in decision making), and 3) able to trust the other (eg privacy of relationship, personal finances etc)?

In most areas, yes. I believed we had a good relationship, although our current state has me questioning everything. We've worked through some very difficult dynamics with ex's and stepkids, mostly around expectations and boundaries. If I try to apply what we've learned about boundaries with his ex, or with our kids, to a situation with his mom, I encounter complete, unbending resistance.

On his part, he feels like he's done everything I've asked (marriage counseling) and it's discouraging that his efforts don't mean anything to me. I have told him I appreciate his efforts to continue counseling. Next time this comes up I want to add that I don't see MC as a solution or the end goal. The goal is changing behaviors, on both our parts, to save our marriage.

It sounds like there is a power imbalance in your relationship if you have fear that he would move your mom in without your consent.  It also sounds like you are feeling that your MIL has more power in the marriage than you do as the wife...what do you think?

Yes to both. I attempt to express the way I feel about the power imbalance, he says he doesn't agree, that the real problem is that I don't understand family. I point out that it's the way I feel, you can't 'agree' or 'disagree' with someone's emotions. He says that if he understood, he might see a reason to change. I tell him I don't need him to understand or agree, I simply need him to trust that I don't want to destroy his relationship with his mom and need him to care about the way I feel. If he understood, he would care. And around it goes.

I am in the beginning stages of trying to separate EMOTION from THOUGHTS with my mom?  Do you know what I mean? 

I think so, although I'm in the infant stages of learning to do this. I want to get better at it.

I love you, but am afraid that your feelings for your mother could come between us in our marriage.   Can we work together to find a way to support your mom, but also protect the love in our marriage and maintain our own personal space? 

I like where you're going with this. It adds love to the message while providing positive direction about goals. And thanks for all you took out (I'm a fan of simple) and for your practical suggestion to bullet point.

You're appreciated, Methuen!
pj

[formflier]

It's a frustrated effort on his part to make me go away. 

How do you know this?  How exactly does he express this?

At first blush, this looks inflammatory.  So...it's critical to be accurate with what both parties actually say, think and believe.

 If I try to apply what we've learned about boundaries with his ex, or with our kids, to a situation with his mom, I encounter complete, unbending resistance.

What does complete, unbending resistance look like?

Can you describe what "applying" looks like and his response?

On his part, he feels like he's done everything I've asked (marriage counseling) and it's discouraging that his efforts don't mean anything to me.

Does he actually say this?

I have told him I appreciate his efforts to continue counseling.

What else do you appreciate about him?  How have you recently expressed that appreciation?

Next time this comes up I want to add that I don't see MC as a solution or the end goal. The goal is changing behaviors, on both our parts, to save our marriage.

Does he believe he is trying to "save" your marriage or is he trying to "improve" it?

What about you?

Best,

FF

[pursuingJoy]

How do you know this?  How exactly does he express this?

At first blush, this looks inflammatory.  So...it's critical to be accurate with what both parties actually say, think and believe.

More than fair, this statement and others I've made are inflammatory.  I let my guard down on this board. I'm usually very filtered in how I approach things with him because I don't want to cause more harm, but I'm grateful for your observation. Definitely something to be aware of because if I practice inflammatory statements (even thoughts) here, I'll be more likely to use them in person.

He's stated repeatedly that this is an issue between me and his mom, that he just wants it to go away. When I mention our marriage, he thinks it's fine. He asked for the list in a moment of exasperation: "Fine, just give me a list and tell me what to do. I really need you to write this all out for me so I know what you want from me and we can make this go away." He has asked for the list in other, calmer moments too.

What does complete, unbending resistance look like?

Another inflammatory statement. Ugh. I'll work on this. Here's what applying looks like, using two real examples (as verbatim as I remember):

Him: "Ex asked me to fix her dryer tonight, but I broke it more. Can we give her the extra one that we have in our garage?"
Me: "Babe, it's ok to say no to your ex when she asks you to repair things around her house. She has the resources to contact a repair person. You don't need to feel obligated to take care of her anymore, you've been divorced for three years."
Him: "Oh, wow. You're right. Thanks."

Him, after visiting his mom for his birthday: "I'm so depressed after spending all day cleaning my dad and brother's gravestones."
Me: "Wow, babe, what made you want to do that on your birthday?"
Him: "I knew that's what mom wanted. She cried the whole time we were cleaning."
Me: "It's hard to see you sad on your birthday, this isn't like you. Your birthday is a day to celebrate you. Maybe next year you could clean their gravestones on a different day, but do something that makes you feel special on your birthday?"
Him: "If you had ever lost someone, you might understand. Birthday's don't mean anything to me. You don't know how difficult it is for my mom that you won't talk to her, that's why she was crying. Cleaning their gravestones is what I wanted, I chose it, not my mom."

On his part, he feels like he's done everything I've asked (marriage counseling) and it's discouraging that his efforts don't mean anything to me.

Does he actually say this?

Yes.

What else do you appreciate about him?  How have you recently expressed that appreciation?

This. When he told me he didn't feel appreciated for anything he's doing it really hurt my heart. I know how that feels and I made a commitment to be more affirming. I am horrible at being affirming when I'm hurting, it takes mindful intent to change my emotional outlook. We have both changed in a negative way since his mom and I had The Disagreement about her moving in.

I appreciate this question. I need to spend some time thinking about this. I appreciate the way he relates to my youngest, and he works hard on home maintenance. I'll work on a list (it gives me something to work on, which in turn makes me feel like maybe there is something I can do to improve our situation).

Does he believe he is trying to "save" your marriage or is he trying to "improve" it?

What about you?

Me: Improve our marriage to save it.

Him: I could be wrong, but I'm not getting that our marriage is on his radar. He seems more interested in making the tension between me and his mom go away. I mentioned once that I was worried our marriage would be in jeopardy unless we changed some behaviors. He seemed surprised, stated that he thinks we have a great marriage, that the problem was me and his mom not getting along, and he hated being in the middle.

Thanks for your feedback and observations, FF.

pj

[GaGrl]

I'm too by back to the "marriage is a priority" discussion.

If your husband thinks your marriage is "fine," he needs to hear (loud and clear) that the marriage is NOT okay.  This may be where your T is pressing you to be more blunt. That there are three people in your marriage is not acceptable. That his behavior and actions and decisions about his mother are damaging both of your in the ability to show up in marriage the way you should...is unacceptable.

[formflier]

If your husband thinks your marriage is "fine," he needs to hear (loud and clear) that the marriage is NOT okay.  

To add to this.  I would hope MC can help you say this in a nonjudgmental way.

Here is the thing.  He may have EXACTLY the marriage he wants and be completely over the moon about it.  I'm hoping you can be ok with that...and listen to him say that, vice talk him out of his feelings/opinions.

Just as strongly, you need to clearly say your marriage is NOT ok and you hope he will understand you and work on compromise and "jointness".

Last:  I doubt you mean "save" the marriage to be inflammatory.

Can you see how there is an implicit "our marriage is doomed unless..."

Best,

FF

[pursuingJoy]

GaGrl, you're making very real statements that hit home. My conundrum is how and when do I share this information in a way that has the potential to lead to healing? I know I can't control his choice but I feel heavy responsibility to do and say things in a way that at least opens the door to something better.

Last:  I doubt you mean "save" the marriage to be inflammatory.

Can you see how there is an implicit "our marriage is doomed unless..."

Absolutely and that implication concerns me. I'm not trying to set an ultimatum, but I'm trying to be clear about what is at stake. onceremoved said in another post that anything I do to force him to choose will drive him back to his mom.

Maybe in our next session with the MC, we could start with questions like:

  "What do you want in a marriage?"
  "Does our marriage make you happy?"
  "Is there anything you want to improve or work towards?"

And then I answer the same questions. Maybe table the boundaries list for now?

Lol I feel like I'm thinking/anticipating for three people (me, him, and his mom) and it's a little overwhelming. 

[once removed]

i dont want to distract from the conversation, but i see this, overall, as more an issue that has to do with the karpman drama triangle, and the role that you may be playing, than anything that boundaries can "solve". i touched on this in your other thread, but i see some examples here.

any given one of your boundaries or ultimatums sounds reasonable enough. and its good to be clear on your limits.

ultimately though, and for the most part very subtly, they represent a power struggle between you and his mother. that is a losing battle.

He seems more interested in making the tension between me and his mom go away. I mentioned once that I was worried our marriage would be in jeopardy unless we changed some behaviors. He seemed surprised, stated that he thinks we have a great marriage, that the problem was me and his mom not getting along, and he hated being in the middle.

He's stated repeatedly that this is an issue between me and his mom, that he just wants it to go away. When I mention our marriage, he thinks it's fine. He asked for the list in a moment of exasperation: "Fine, just give me a list and tell me what to do. I really need you to write this all out for me so I know what you want from me and we can make this go away." He has asked for the list in other, calmer moments too.

these are the clearest statements that you could possibly have to work with.

he cant cope with the tension (people triangulate to cope with tension). he feels caught in the middle (your actions and hers play a role in that).

incidentally, that means hes also playing right into the triangle, both victim and rescuer.

have you read much on schema therapy?

in short: we all have a "punitive parent" that exists inside our head, as well as a "critical or demanding" parent.

www.schematherapy.com/id72.htm

people with BPD and children of someone with BPD have domineering "punitive parent" and "critical or demanding parent" voices that rule a lot of their actions and decisions.

and they tend to choose partners that they find reinforce those voices. its transference.

from a psychoanalysis standpoint, i suspect that in ways both small and big picture, that is playing out in the dynamic between the two of you. in simple terms, he sees the critical and negative side of his mother in you. he withdraws from that and seeks the rewarding side of his mother, from her.

if all of that sounds a little heavy, or a little bit drug store psychiatry, lots walk through a couple of your examples.

Him: "Ex asked me to fix her dryer tonight, but I broke it more. Can we give her the extra one that we have in our garage?"
Me: "Babe, it's ok to say no to your ex when she asks you to repair things around her house. She has the resources to contact a repair person. You don't need to feel obligated to take care of her anymore, you've been divorced for three years."
Him: "Oh, wow. You're right. Thanks."

its not that theres anything inherently wrong with any of this. couples have lots of conversations like this inconsequentially. but lets look at it more subtly.

he didnt ask for advice. he asked if he could give the extra dryer to his ex.

you told him its okay to say no and explained why. at a certain level, this is talking down to him (invokes shame), and playing right into the critical parent. at a certain, subconscious level, he may even have been seeking that; he clearly appreciated it.

we can debate whether or not what he did or wanted to do with his ex was unhealthy, or whatever. in his mind, he was just trying to help. by fixing this for him, telling him what to do or not to do, he feels bad for that urge, and inferior, on a subconscious level, something that i suspect he struggles with in life. something i suspect hes heard a lot of his from his mom.

Him, after visiting his mom for his birthday: "I'm so depressed after spending all day cleaning my dad and brother's gravestones."
Me: "Wow, babe, what made you want to do that on your birthday?"
Him: "I knew that's what mom wanted. She cried the whole time we were cleaning."
Me: "It's hard to see you sad on your birthday, this isn't like you. Your birthday is a day to celebrate you. Maybe next year you could clean their gravestones on a different day, but do something that makes you feel special on your birthday?"
Him: "If you had ever lost someone, you might understand. Birthday's don't mean anything to me. You don't know how difficult it is for my mom that you won't talk to her, that's why she was crying. Cleaning their gravestones is what I wanted, I chose it, not my mom."

same thing.

he was trying to help, whether out of obligation, out of love, out of enmeshment, whatever we want to call it. but he was made to feel wrong for that (he got defensive in this case). he was confiding in you, and felt criticized.

i suspect that in a lot of ways, both big and small, this is a significant part of the dynamic between the two of you, the conflict between the two of you, and how you relate to each other. i know some of its a little bit heavy. can you see what i mean?

[formflier]

  My conundrum is how and when do I share this information in a way that has the potential to lead to healing? 

I would suggest that you share the information in a way that it can be understood the way you intend it to be understood.

Here is the thing.  Clarity is important.  If you are really saying the marriage is on the line, don't beat around the bush.

Say it succinctly.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

he was confiding in you, and felt criticized.

i suspect that in a lot of ways, both big and small, this is a significant part of the dynamic between the two of you, the conflict between the two of you, and how you relate to each other.  

I see a similar thing that once removed pointed out.

As I read this part of the story I winced.  He came to you with something that was likely a big deal to him.  He was vulnerable.

What was the result of his vulnerability?  
 
Do you think the next time he wants to open up will he be more or less likely to do so?

Note:  This is all separate from decisions about his Mom.  However, I'm sure these other communications dynamics affect "the mom issue".

Definitely heavy stuff, yet very important to deal with.

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

I think the questions you listed for discussion at your T meeting are necessay. Perhaps "Describe the marriage you want -- or anticipated you would have."

 I agree your husband has the marriage he wants. I have to wonder if that is what he aspired to.

I am fortunate in that my DH and I reconnected 40 years after being teens together, and our relationship experiences by then made us very, very clear on what we envisioned as marriage -- intimacy, trust, partnership with each other comes first, then comes help and support for all our children, grandchildren and other family members.

You might find you sharply differ either on marriage expectations or on where priorities fall.I

It just occurred to me -- what caused his first marriage to fail?

[pursuingJoy]

FormFlier and once removed, thanks for sharing, still digesting my thoughts and I don't have time to post anything lengthy right now. What you're saying makes sense, and I appreciate that you're coming at this from a man's perspective, which I believe is different and interesting to hear.

Would the following have been your recommended responses?

"Can I give her the extra dryer"
"No." (And keep it succinct, because any explanation beyond "i would rather sell it" may be construed as condescension...or maybe no is too harsh. Should I ask a question like, "I thought we had agreed to sell it, do you feel like it's really important to give to your ex?" But if he says yes, I'd have a major problem with that, but I wouldn't be able to explain why because that's condescending. I also feel like the question is borderline entrapmen, like a test. In case it helps, we had already talked about selling the dryer.)

"I had a horrible day."
"I'm really sorry you had a bad day." (Is there anything I can do at this point to at least not validate unhealthy relating to his mom? Is it cruel to not lend too much weight, maybe change the subject at some point? Is letting him vent about and validating his experience and blaming me for his bad day helpful or hurtful?)

Thanks for your patience, I'm trying to understand what life is like from his side. And I hope it's ok to say that this isn't just about accommodating his needs, I want to learn new effective ways of communicating that work for me too. So bear with me!

pj

[once removed]

"I thought we had agreed to sell it, do you feel like it's really important to give to your ex?"

i like this.

i think ideally, its something that should be discussed. together. equally. and with an open mind.

you may prefer to sell the dryer. he may think "why not give it to someone who needs it instead". is the money needed? whats your primary objection to him giving the dryer to his ex? all of these are things that should be on the table. but solutions should be a goal.

"I had a horrible day."

if it were me?

id propose something we do something fun/special. or if hed prefer to relax and take it easy, make it easy for him to do that. or if he wants to talk to me, im ready to listen. whatever he wanted to do.

is the issue about his mom, or how he felt after what he went through?

[pursuingJoy]

Dryer: issue is he feels responsible to take care of his ex. I don't really care as much about who it goes to. It's not about the dryer.

Birthday: he was expressing that he had a bad day, because his mom was sad, because I made his mom sad. I am happy to express empathy for sadness. Is there a way to do that but not accept blame for the way his day turned out?

I had thrown him a party that day (and invited his mom but she declined) that he was looking forward to before he went to see her. At the party, which was after his visit to his mom, several friends asked if he was ok because he was down. He left them to watch tv, very unlike him.

[pursuingJoy]

Sorry for the brevity, trying to respond btwn between life demands.

GaGrl, thanks. I've thought more about the "describe the marriage you want" question and I do think that may be a way to identify differences and common ground. I have a friend who is fine as long as her husband doesn't cheat, they go on family trips, and she gets to do what she loves. I know im looking for authentic connection, intimacy, friendship and time. I had that until 4 months ago.

[once removed]

Dryer: issue is he feels responsible to take care of his ex. I don't really care as much about who it goes to. It's not about the dryer.

whos issue is this, though? yours or his? both?

Birthday: he was expressing that he had a bad day, because his mom was sad, because I made his mom sad. I am happy to express empathy for sadness. Is there a way to do that but not accept blame for the way his day turned out?

sorry, i missed this part. i thought he was depressed about cleaning gravestones all day?

[Harri]

This thread has reached the max post limit and has been locked and split.  Part 2 is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=340522.msg13084780#msg13084780

Thank you.