Is it all bad?

[Spindle0516]

Dont get me wrong, living with my MIL is really, really hard. I constantly fantasize about her moving out and there is a very, very good chance she will be returning to Florida April of next year.

I've been following and asking questions here for about a month now and have felt such comfort in knowing other people face similar challenges. It has been the one thing that has helped me see that we aren't unique or insane.

All of this is very new, and I'd say we are in the very early stages of learning and setting boundaries. Right now, I think we have been mostly learning and taking in as much information as possible.

But something has been nagging at me- I've read so much about the challenges we all face. Living with my MIL is the hardest thing I have ever done, but it isn't all bad. We ARE constantly on edge, but there are moments where it is easy see that she is also a really wonderful person that is lost in there. My husband says there are moments where he sees the "shadow" of the mom he used to know. She has always had significant boundary issues, and the more my husband learns, the more he says he sees how BPD had a veil over most things in his childhood. But nonetheless, I really do believe she tried really hard to be a good mom and to give her kids a better childhood than she had.

She is funny. And thoughtful (sometimes too thoughtful, but thoughtful regardless.) And sometimes her and I have coffee together in the morning while my husband works and I thoroughly enjoy it.

I don't even know if I have a question, but it is hard to reconcile that she is both someone worthy of love even while suffering from BPD and subjecting us to the whirlwind of BPD.

Does anyone else struggle with this? 

[Imatter33]

I am just happy to see a post like this. Acknowledging the good.
I have been nc with my mom for 8 months and 95% of the time I think its been really really good for me.

I do also think my mom tried the best she could when we were young.
And she probably tries super hard now.
But I  miss her good traits, her laugh, her warmth, (always unexpected) and her adventurous spirit.
When you mentioned coffee with your mom in law, ( I get it) there are nice things too miss.


I was talking to a friend of mine that the hardest part of uBPD for me is that I feel it broke my mom and I often times miss the woman I "wish she could be" A woman that I get to know only for a short short time before I am battling again.

[Notwendy]

It’s not all bad. We should not take the all bad approach. Humans are complex. My bpd mother is beautiful, charming and intelligent. She can be very generous at times. She has a circle of friends who think she is great.

Every relationship takes two. I have a part in this. As her scapegoat child- I sometimes got the good side- but I was also emotionally abused. Others don’t see that. In fact if they knew they would probably not believe it.

I think it would be great to have coffee with her. But there’s my part. It’s not easy to have coffee with a person who abused you and continues to do so at times. I would be uncomfortable - even though I try to not hold a grudge - the relationship is the dynamics between us. I still do try to see her and sometimes enjoy her company but I’m usually guarded. She can sense that.

As the daughter in law - you have a different relationship. If it’s good - enjoy it. It’s a good thing for her and for you.

[TelHill]

I don’t think these forums would exist if anyone with bpd was all bad. My mom has been and still is abusive most of the time. She gives money and gifts to me constantly. She’s not a spendthrift bpd or out to get money out of me. I like to take her shopping because she is happy at Michael’s, Marshall’s or Big Lots.    The parking lot is close to the stores. She’s fun and not abusive. She uses a cane and can’t navigate our local mega malls.

I don’t watch much TV but did watch The Sopranos and Mad Men. Those shows helped me with the all bad vs flawed/mentally ill dichotomy. My mom is similar to Tony Soprano’s mom in the show.  Am sure there are similar shows these days as successful formulas are copied. Don’t know what they are  though.

[Methuen]

Hmm.  Even Darth Vader wasn't all bad.  It is said that Anakin Skywalker met six of the nine diagnostic criteria for borderline personality disorder (BPD).

I think the back and forth between being nice, and being mean or abusive, messes with a lot of us in a lot of ways.

My mom used to have more nice than mean (when she was younger).  As she aged, it has reversed. 

[Notwendy]

One of the hardest aspects of a relationship with my mother is that she lies and likes to manipulate me. I can't tell if she is speaking the truth or not. Also she has a need for caretaking. She's elderly now- and so it is a natural thing to help her but she also was like this when she was younger. So it's a power play of sorts when I visit.

I have tried to make our visits fun- like going out to lunch but it's tough to keep it like this. She sees visits from her kids as "what can you do for me" and rather than be direct, she manipulates the situation. I don't mind doing things for her. I am glad to help her and do what is helpful to her. I would like to enjoy visiting her, but when I do visit, I feel manipulated.

I can't know what her agenda is. She isn't forthcoming. When she is with her friends, it's an act as well but they don't know that. It's also part her. She can be charming, and generous.

BPD is a spectrum disorder and it affects the most intimate relationships the most. So it's not a surprise to me that she is more able to be the charming fun friend to her friends than to immediate family. I have a golden child sibling who also has had a better relationship with her than I have. Still I don't think she is all bad and our relationship has not been all bad, however, since I have had boundaries with her, it is strained.

[TelHill]

I mentioned my mom’s recent troubles of moaning in pain/being in bed all day & having a miraculous cure yesterday.  When all is said and done, I’m betting she is lying and manipulating me.  She’s old & forgetful, but her aging issues are peaks & valleys. She told me she fell twice yesterday before she went to bed. I was here and heard no usual thump to the ground. My brother & dad weren’t concerned because they knew she was faking. I believe it too.

On the face of it, it looks bad. She is mentally disordered though.We all have the drive for self-preservation. Am assuming she is full of irrational guilt, shame and envy. We all know how that drives the strange behavior and abuse.

I thought about this more. It’s not good or bad. It’s a disorder. It goes beyond moral judgements of a person’s behavior.

[Spindle0516]

I think the back and forth between being nice, and being mean or abusive, messes with a lot of us in a lot of ways.

My mom used to have more nice than mean (when she was younger).  As she aged, it has reversed. 

This is what is so hard. You have these lovely moments and then suddenly she is so mean out of nowhere. It is like emotional whiplash.

My husband said his mom has gotten much worse as she has aged. She is now disabled-though I believe she is much more capable than she believes herself to be- but since she has stopped working, he notices a huge decline in her mental health.

She is mentally disordered though.We all have the drive for self-preservation. Am assuming she is full of irrational guilt, shame and envy. We all know how that drives the strange behavior and abuse.

Yes. Just, yes. This is my MIL 100%. What I am just realizing, and having a hard time accepting, is that we are in an abusive situation. That actually makes me want to cry typing it. My home life was very different than my husbands growing up. It has been hard for me to realize that she can both love us, but also be abusive. It never occurred to me that her manipulation, her lack of boundaries, her snide remarks, and emotional breakdowns could all be considered forms of abuse.

Since she has been home from the hospital, she has been on her best behavior, but no sooner than hitting "post" on this board yesterday, did we swing hard in the opposite direction. I almost deleted the question!   

I can't know what her agenda is. She isn't forthcoming. When she is with her friends, it's an act as well but they don't know that. It's also part her. She can be charming, and generous.

This is also my MIL 100%. She doesn't have friends. She refuses to leave the house without my husband or I because her anxiety is so high, but when she attends social gatherings with my family, she is like a different person. She arrives with gifts and is super charming. But, she will also stay in one seat and will not get anything to drink or eat because it makes her anxious without the help of me or my husband even though she is capable. (Is this a form of abuse?)

[pursuingJoy]

Spindle thanks for posting your thoughts. It makes me happy that you can truly enjoy moments with your MIL. 

I remember how it felt to realize that a relationship was abusive. You sound like a very compassionate human who is handling ambivalence like a champ. 

I honestly can't say that I've enjoyed my MIL, but at times I certainly feel for her. She never knew who her dad was and that's always hurt my heart. Her mom knew but refused to tell her. MIL really wanted to know so last year I took the initiative (with her full permission and a discussion about what she might find) to get her DNA tested and do research through a genealogy site. We found some close cousins related to her dad, but not enough to identify her dad.

That was important for me to do because I want to be a loving and supportive DIL. I just don't want her to walk all over me.

I can genuinely feel for her but at the same time be frustrated/hurt/upset by the snide remarks, illnesses that are used to justify behavior then seem to disappear, intrusiveness, and situational helplessness. In the safe space between us, empathy makes me feel a little less angry, a little more human and I can shift my thinking. So thank you.

Telhill, I've read your other thread about your mom, your stress and her instant recovery. That would be so upsetting. Thinking about you!

pj

[pursuingJoy]

But, she will also stay in one seat and will not get anything to drink or eat because it makes her anxious without the help of me or my husband even though she is capable. (Is this a form of abuse?)

It does sound manipulative.

[GaGrl]

My mom lives with us now -- she is 93, with macular degeneration that leaves her legally blind in one eye and well on the way in her other eye, but she is cognitively sharp.  She had a witch/queen of an uNPD/BPD stepmother and, while not BPD herself, is sometimes emotionally fragile and sensitive to what she perceives as criticism. I am the only child now -- my sister died of breast cancer at age 31, a long time and great sadness ago.

What I had to come to terms with was a level of invalidation, not just from my mother but also other family members. My own opinions, thoughts, preferences were often met with, "Oh, you don't really think that!" ( believe that, want that...), especially if it wasn't in line with their religious or social or cultural beliefs. My mother, never having had a chance to individuate from first her bio mother (who died in pregnancy when my mom was four years old) nor from a disordered stepmother, had trouble with my attempts at privacy, independence, and pulling away.

All this resulted in my feeling, many years ago, that I could share only a certain level of intimacy and mother/daughter sharing without risking invalidation/disapproval. So there is a self-imposed barrier there that I wish had turned out another way, and I have grieved the type of mother/daughter relationship that I've seen with some friends and their mothers.

What is interesting is that things are better with my mom ageing than it was during my 30s, 40s, 50s. Maybe we have a "false intimacy" because we live together now and she has my company, but I still limit any deep conversation.I

[Notwendy]

My mother also likes to be "waited" on. She wants to have her food brought to her, to be pampered. A while back we were out at lunch and she wanted me to take her to the restroom. She held on to me and acted helpless as we walked through the restaurant. At her age, I would accompany her to the restroom, but she is able to walk just fine.

Even when she was younger, she treated me as some sort of servant/helper. She would manipulate me into doing things for her that she can do herself. When I visit her, I have tasks to do. I don't mind helping her but we can't just go to lunch, or do something without her having me attend to her, even if she is capable.

I don't quite get it. I think she has some emotional need to be taken care of or "waited" on. While it is manipulative, I don't see it as abusive, but need based. I feel as if she perceives me as someone to meet her needs. She doesn't show much interest in me personally. If she wants to know what is going on with me and my family it's so she can appear to be "in the know" to others about me and her grandkids. I don't share very personal information as I know she will talk about it to others.

I don't see an evil motive to this behavior. I think it is part of her disorder and don't fully comprehend it.

[zachira]

My mother and my siblings with BPD have done many nice things for me, more than I have ever done for them. If I am going to give to another, I like to give from the heart and not do it to manipulate or impress another person. For me the key in all of this is to understand splitting. My relatives with BPD (and there are many of them besides my mother and siblings) can be amazingly generous or incredibly cruel. As a child, it was natural for me to feel that the things that my family members did for me meant that they loved me, and if they mistreated me I must have done something wrong. Now I see that the mark of a safe person is that they are genuinely the same nice person most of the time, and in times of stress, he/she doesn't suddenly turn mean.

[pursuingJoy]

Since she has been home from the hospital, she has been on her best behavior, but no sooner than hitting "post" on this board yesterday, did we swing hard in the opposite direction. I almost deleted the question!   

Spindle, it occurred to me that we didn't ask you what happened here.

My mother also likes to be "waited" on. She wants to have her food brought to her, to be pampered. A while back we were out at lunch and she wanted me to take her to the restroom. She held on to me and acted helpless as we walked through the restaurant. At her age, I would accompany her to the restroom, but she is able to walk just fine.

This is real, and I agree that it probably stems from intense need. My MIL lives independently, travels, makes plans with friends, but the moment her son or I enter the room, she deflates and becomes incapable of driving, making decisions, going anywhere alone. She asked once if she could help me. I asked her to stir the pot on the stove, when I came back it was boiling over as she watched. Odd situational helplessness.

My mother and my siblings with BPD have done many nice things for me, more than I have ever done for them. If I am going to give to another, I like to give from the heart and not do it to manipulate or impress another person. For me the key in all of this is to understand splitting. My relatives with BPD (and there are many of them besides my mother and siblings) can be amazingly generous or incredibly cruel. As a child, it was natural for me to feel that the things that my family members did for me meant that they loved me, and if they mistreated me I must have done something wrong. Now I see that the mark of a safe person is that they are genuinely the same nice person most of the time, and in times of stress, he/she doesn't suddenly turn mean.

This puts words to feelings I've had for a while. well said.

[Spindle0516]

My mother also likes to be "waited" on. She wants to have her food brought to her, to be pampered. A while back we were out at lunch and she wanted me to take her to the restroom. She held on to me and acted helpless as we walked through the restaurant. At her age, I would accompany her to the restroom, but she is able to walk just fine.

My MIL does things like this a lot. We have taken her to the doctor, and she walks in just fine, but the moment we get into the office, I've watched her suddenly become confused, unable to fill out paperwork- her gait even changes. My husband said that when he was young, she would be afraid to go into stores- she would either not go into certain ones because they were too busy and would just send the kids in while she waited in the car, or my husband and his brother would have to encourage her and remind her that they will hold her hand the whole time.

Not too long ago, we took her to a baseball game. We were sitting right in front of one of the food stands and she asked me to go get her a snack. My BIL offered her money to get it herself, but she said no, she wanted me to do it. I, like a fool, went and got her the snack, even though it was about ten feet from where we were sitting.

If I am going to give to another, I like to give from the heart and not do it to manipulate or impress another person. For me the key in all of this is to understand splitting.

I have begun to think that she sees her worth in how much she is able to give to another person. She has limited income, but will review products to get them for free/severely discounted. She will then give these away as gifts even if they are things people have explicitly stated they do not want. She cannot comprehend why someone wouldn't want it because of how much it is worth. If she finds things on sale at a severely discounted price, she buys them, not because she likes them, but because of how much it is worth. She will then go on and on about how expensive it is.

When she cannot buy things for people or assist financially in the way she wants to, she sees herself as a terrible person. She often talks about a time when she "had money," but my husband never remembers such a time. What he remembers is her buying things on credit cards that were beyond their budget, buying new couches annually, his mom writing checks and then scrambling to find money to cover them so they don't bounce, going out for expensive dinners. He remembers, even at a young age, trying to convince her that they couldn't afford certain things and her insisting it was fine.

I remember how it felt to realize that a relationship was abusive. You sound like a very compassionate human who is handling ambivalence like a champ. ...

I honestly can't say that I've enjoyed my MIL, but at times I certainly feel for her. She never knew who her dad was and that's always hurt my heart. Her mom knew but refused to tell her. MIL really wanted to know so last year I took the initiative (with her full permission and a discussion about what she might find) to get her DNA tested and do research through a genealogy site. We found some close cousins related to her dad, but not enough to identify her dad.

That was important for me to do because I want to be a loving and supportive DIL. I just don't want her to walk all over me.

Thank you, but I've felt like I've handled it  so much less gracefully than I would like.

I tend to be super empathetic, and I've had to realize that her early upbringing cannot be a reason for us to continually be in this hostile environment.

My husband is such a good son and tries so hard to be there for her in light of everything they went through. When his dad left, his mom really was the constant in his life. She helped him through a lot of difficult times. But he is also now just realizing that he was raised in an environment where mom assumed all of her needs were also his and it has resulted in a lot of anxiety for him as he tries to create his own path and she continually finds ways to latch on. This has been a point of conflict/stress for us. We thought he was being a good son and I a supportive DIL, but now it is just a lot of stress.

Spindle, it occurred to me that we didn't ask you what happened here.

It didn't even occur to me to share! She has mostly been in a really foul mood. Lots of biting remarks, but says she is kidding when questioned on it. Very reactive to anything we say. A lot of building tension that we typically see before she has some weird outburst/emotional breakdown/ or starts a really nasty arguement. It really just stresses my husband and I out because we know what is coming and haven't yet mastered the art of not succumbing to the bait.

She had to follow up on appointments with her doctors so I made a list of the information that we needed. She got really nasty with me and insisted I could call as a favor to her since she has had to make so many phone calls already this week. (This was a boundary we put in place when she came out of the hospital. I no longer schedule, handle or drive her to appointments. The exception is if she has questions about her benefits and then we make the phone call together or if it is too expensive for her to uber there.) I stood my ground and she was very upset with me for it!

Whew. Sorry for the novel and thanks for listening/all the feedback!

[GaGrl]

It's so difficult to figure out what is BPD and what is ageing related.

My mother's caregiver or I sign her in to the doctor and complete paperwork -- her macular degeneration no longer enables her to read or write legibly. And I have to guide her from the car to the office so she doesn't trip over curbs or cracks. However, I don't go into the examining or test rooms with her. She is cognitively sharp as a tack, and I'm not taking on the role of managing her conversations with doctors she's had for 20+ years.

Since we retired and moved into our retirement house that she had already lived in for three years, she is really spoiled. I think this is ageing. She would be happy never to get out of her recliner from 7 a.m. to 8 p.m. if we let her. My husband finally told her she wasn't getting enough movement and walking, and told her she was responsible for getting the mail each day -- one of us will walk with her, but she needs to do it. She was fine with that, but she wasn't going to suggest it herself. I think she's forgotten how to make a sandwich.

The PD traits I think I see are more around giving her into she doesn't want to hear. But again...is that a BPD trait, or just a 93 year old being crotchety?

[Notwendy]

My mother has "aged" into her diagnosis. As an elderly woman, people aren't surprised by crotchety behavior. She also has her needs fulfilled as she has home help to take care of her. Some of it she needs and some of is is preference- which meets her emotional needs as she can ask her caregivers to bring her something to eat, or get the mail, even though she is capable of doing it herself.

I have accepted that this is who she is. There isn't any point in feeling hurt by her behavior. She isn't really any different now than when she was younger, except that now in her elder years - her need to be cared for and her moods are considered to me more "normal" now.

[pursuingJoy]

I tend to be super empathetic, and I've had to realize that her early upbringing cannot be a reason for us to continually be in this hostile environment.

This is where I am too! Day by day we'll work to see more clearly, shift the dynamic in small and big ways, and set boundaries. Be patient with yourself and know that you're learning some amazing things about life and relationships in general.

The hardest part for me is navigating my own emotions, they cloud my judgment. Guilt makes me overcompensate. Anger and hurt close me off. Empathy makes me feel guilty, then want to try again. I've had to learn to better understand my own emotions and if it's necessary to respond, to do so courageously, mindfully and with a goal in mind. Do you find that too? How are you managing this part?

We thought he was being a good son and I a supportive DIL, but now it is just a lot of stress.

I can relate to so much of your experience. Maybe there are good/normal/healthy parts (feeling genuine appreciation for parental love and sacrifice, desire to help parents through aging years, desire for identity outside of parents/autonomy, and prioritization of nuclear family), then unhealthy parts (fear, obligation, guilt, lack of identity/identity defined by parents, emotional enmeshment). The lines aren't always clear, right? It's helped me to study my emotions and think about my motivation as I relate to my MIL.

It sounds like you have patience with your husband. I'm improving, but not quite where you are yet.

I stood my ground and she was very upset with me for it!

Overall, are you happy with how you handled it? It sounds like you maintained a boundary! 

[Spindle0516]

This is where I am too! Day by day we'll work to see more clearly, shift the dynamic in small and big ways, and set boundaries. Be patient with yourself and know that you're learning some amazing things about life and relationships in general.

The hardest part for me is navigating my own emotions, they cloud my judgment. Guilt makes me overcompensate. Anger and hurt close me off. Empathy makes me feel guilty, then want to try again. I've had to learn to better understand my own emotions and if it's necessary to respond, to do so courageously, mindfully and with a goal in mind. Do you find that too? How are you managing this part?

As hard as this has been, I've learned more about myself and my relationship with my husband than I thought I would when we embarked on this process together.It is hard,but I still want to be here.

Pursuing Joy, you're right. The hardest part for me has been acknowledging any role that I play in the conflict. It has been acknowledging that even if I haven't caused the chaos, I haven't always been kind. I hate it, but I am trying to do better. I can stick to the boundaries we put in place, but I don't have to be mean while doing. Sometimes I find myself doing the opposite of anything my MIL does and I am trying to be conscience of if it is because I really want to do/say/think the opposite or if it is just because she said it.

I am also trying really hard not to feel resentful of her and the challenges we face because of her. She is who she is and logic/reason won't change that. If she could just change or stop her inappropriate behavior, I'm sure she would have by now.

[pursuingJoy]

Sometimes I find myself doing the opposite of anything my MIL does and I am trying to be conscience of if it is because I really want to do/say/think the opposite or if it is just because she said it.

Quick story from yesterday that I think you'll relate to:

She's always invited us out to eat, and she pays. It makes her feel good to gift others as a gracious benefactor. It brings her attention, gets the focus on her. It also comes with obligations my husband feels heavily.

She had invited us out to a restaurant yesterday for our youngest's birthday. I made sure to keep the focus on the bday girl, bringing gifts for her to open at the restaurant, calling ahead to find out if we could bring a cake or what they offered for birthdays. We had also changed the time to accommodate our family,  so she was already mad, and I knew that this attention on the bday girl would bother my her even more. I had to really study my intentions to figure out if I was doing it for the right reasons or just to annoy her.

I ended up doing it in spite of the fact that it annoyed her. This outing wasn't about her. I trusted my intent and my heart. She ended up refusing to pay, which was 100% fine with me. I paid and with that, the dynamic shifted just a teeny bit in the right direction.

From what I hear you say, I trust you Spindle. You have a gentle heart and you want to do the right thing.

pj

[zachira]

pursuingJoy,
Your story about the birthday party for your youngest child warmed my heart. To make the birthday party about your child and not your MIL was a real challenge and you handled it with class. I think you really showed your child that you are there for her and you took the high road with your MIL. Maybe we should have a place to post success stories.  
Spindle0516
I think we all struggle with our part in the conflict. In my experience, the people I respect the most, feel sorry for others that act badly and are usually kind to the worst people. I am working on practicing loving kindness with my family members who have done many cruel things to me.   

[Notwendy]

I have learned that if my mother offers to pay for something, there is an agenda- strings attached and she doesn't let on what that is.

As a general rule - I don't accept any money from her for anything. If we go to lunch, I plan to pay. If she offers, I refuse.

A while back, we- my family- went to visit her. We planned to stay for several days to see her, her family and some friends. She wanted them to see the grand kids and we agreed to that. On the first day we told her we would be arriving late. She asked us to come to her place to visit when we got there. That usually is an ordeal, so I said no, we would be tired from the trip but asked her to come to the hotel we were staying at so we could visit for a little while. We made plans to visit with her and others the next day.

She then offered to bring food for us, so I thought, why not say OK? What could possibly come out of her bringing something to eat? I imagined it was simple take out food.

Then, the menu became more elaborate, and I began to wonder why. Then she made a comment " I think 'so and so" might drop by too".

The food wasn't just for us.  She wanted to entertain at her place and have the  grand kids there. But she never told me the plan in the first place so I had no idea. I thought it was just us and so I asked her to come to us instead. So to continue with her plan ( that I had no idea about )she then decided to invite people to where we were-but she didn't ask me, she told me.

So I said no- no to all of it. I still invited her to come by but just her. I ordered take out myself. She had a fit. Then she accused me of depriving her of the pleasure of bringing food for family and it sounded so pitiful because all she was doing was try to do something nice for us.

But nowhere in this plan was the idea that maybe she should ask us or tell us what she was planning. This also played into me being the persecutor to her. I ruined her plans.

She's also at other times offered to pay and then decided not to.

There was so much drama over what I thought would be a simple situation. It confirmed to me that It is better to stay with the boundary of not accepting her paying.

[pursuingJoy]

Notwendy, just wow. That's a great illustration of how "gifts" are used to manipulate. My MIL jokingly (but not) insisted on paying, got hurt if I refused a used piece of furniture I didn't need, and had parameters about how to use furniture I'd accepted. I'm with zachira: gifts come from the heart, without strings. Limits should be respected. I have three girls and I don't ever want to make them feel that way.

Watching my husband refuse to accept that his mom is less than perfect has granted me a lot of respect for those of you that have had the courage to face reality. I'm sorry for all that you've been through and I'm impressed. As Spindle pointed out, it may not all be bad, but I wish there wasn't a need to set such protective boundaries, that we could enjoy family (and our MIL's) in safety and comfort.

Happy veterans day!

pj

[TelHill]

My mother has "aged" into her diagnosis. As an elderly woman, people aren't surprised by crotchety behavior. She also has her needs fulfilled as she has home help to take care of her. Some of it she needs and some of is is preference- which meets her emotional needs as she can ask her caregivers to bring her something to eat, or get the mail, even though she is capable of doing it herself.

You hit the nail on the head. My mom used to rage at home and be very quiet to the outside world in her younger years.

People dote on the cute elderly lady with the cane in public so she does act out some of her bpd stuff.  It's not worth getting upset about if you're not around that much. On a daily basis, it is unpleasant to hear the rage or be the target of it.

If you are near a city with a sizeable mentally ill homeless population, spend a day in the area walking the streets and eating all your meals in the cheaper places like Burger King, McDonalds. You'll hear similar ragings and see people in agony. How comfortable would you feel?

[Methuen]

So I am really connecting to the topic of how money is used to manipulate and have the bpd's own needs met.  I wonder if to a BP, money = power?

...and she pays. It makes her feel good to gift others as a gracious benefactor. It brings her attention, gets the focus on her. It also comes with obligations

Even though I have learned so much about BPD in the past few months, I still can't get over how all your BPD SO's are just like my mom.  All my life I thought my mom was a one of a kind quirky, difficult, high maintenance mom who was sometimes just "impossible".  It's just so surprising to me that so many of the traits that I thought were always peculiar to her, are so common to other's SO's.  It's remarkable to me how BP's use money to get attention and focus on them.  Today I arranged to cook a brunch at her place to celebrate both our adult children home visiting (at the same time).  She doesn't cook anymore, but likes to have the action at her place, so I figured I could manage cooking a brunch in her kitchen (she wanted the upcoming Christmas dinner at her house too, but I drew the boundary there and said no).  As we were starting to cook the bacon, she made a big scene of telling everyone how "expensive" the bacon was.  I quipped back that everything she bought was expensive.  She liked that (she's of course "cheap").  She used to want to pay for our restaurant outings too, but we realized years ago that strings were attached to that, and started paying (our logic was to tell her it wasn't fair that she paid for 4 of us when there was only 1 of her).  The biggest storm over money came when she had written us a cheque for $10000 to help with the purchase of our first house.  We thanked her but declined!  She of course took it as personal rejection!  It was a huge drama and disaster.  We explained that we wanted to earn our first home "on our own", and feel our own sense of pride for having done so.  That made no sense to her.  But we kept our boundary.  She's never gotten over it.  

But nowhere in this plan was the idea that maybe she should ask us or tell us what she was planning. This also played into me being the persecutor to her. I ruined her plans.

I once endured one of my mom's rages, because she changed my dinner menu for MY FRIENDS who were out of town guests staying at MY HOUSE.  She knew them too, so was invited for the dinner, but went ahead and cooked a lasagne to bring when I had a whole menu planned for a fun breaded fish and chips dinner (with fresh halibut caught from the ocean).  I was so taken aback by her announcement of having made a lasagne (without having a conversation with me about what she could bring), that I simply suggested we have her lasagne the next night and all get together again a second night.  A reasonable solution I thought, but not to her.  She made me the persecutor and raged that I had ruined her plans.  Holy it was bad.  She got physical with me, which was a new low.  Back then, I didn't know anything about BPD so I reacted as a normal person would, but definitely not as I should have.  I escalated the situation.
  I'm really glad I followed this thread, because as I'm reflecting here, I'm realizing how much I've learned in the past few months.  I'm still learning how to react to mom's rages differently (separating thoughts and emotions, using SET etc), so I'm having a moment of gratitude for what I've learned, despite having had the worst few months of my life with my mom.
   Thanks to everyone for your posts, because following them has helped me see some personal growth in myself, at a time when I needed it.

People dote on the cute elderly lady with the cane in public

This describes my mom perfectly.  She laps up the attention.  Reflecting on this helps me realizes she manipulates all people, not just me.  Eureka moment.

[GaGrl]

My husband's ex did the same thing three times with their D, then 22-ish. She had a toddler, was working part-time and had just started classes for a nine-month course to become a Licensed Massage Therapist. Ex had two cars and would offer D22 use of one of the cars. Something would happen that Ex didn't like, and she would take the keys away, leaving D without a way to get to work or class.

Multiple similar examples happen over the years, D got better at boundaries and not letting her mother gift anything.

So years go by...D decided to make extra $$$ buying/selling antiques at a specialty flea market. It was very successful (sometimes $900 a week) and soon D was hauling "stuff" in her car every Sat. and Sun. Ex talked to my husband about going in together to buy D a used minivan for the flea market business, and my husband agreed. Minivan was bought (50-50) and worked out well. About 18 months later, Ex was mad at D about something and told her the minivan had not been a gift -- it was a loan, and D needed to start paying it back. Her dad confirmed that it was his understanding it was a gift, certainly was on our part. I honestly don't know how they resolved it -- I was disgusted at D and DH for getting involved with Ex on anything involving $$$. No learning from history and experience, but Ex can be charming and seductive.

[Notwendy]

As we were starting to cook the bacon, she made a big scene of telling everyone how "expensive" the bacon was.  I quipped back that everything she bought was expensive.  

Yup, my mother uses money to control, manipulate, and impress people. She says this stuff too.

Everything she buys is expensive. I don't even want to think about how she wastes money- money my father worked to earn- and handed over to her. He earned the money, she controlled it.

We didn't grow up wealthy. We had what we needed, but most of my father's earnings went to her needs and wants. Sometimes we made some modest choices to compensate.

[Harri]

This thread reached to post limit and has been locked and split.  Part 2 is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=340867.msg13086556#msg13086556

Thanks you.