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Author Topic: Help me think through this...  (Read 647 times)
pursuingJoy
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« on: November 12, 2019, 10:15:19 AM »

I've lost so much respect for my husband. Does the need to tell her everything tie into his need for her love? I'm trying to understand what is behind his desperate need to stay enmeshed.

Oh no. I just had a horrible thought. I wonder if he married me (good girl) to try to earn back his mother's approval after having an affair. It worked at first because she was embarrassed he had shamed the family. She would tell me I was "the only daughter in law she'd ever liked." Because she only cares about herself and her needs, I'm now in the way of her getting her needs met through her son. He married me as a peace offering to her, and now she's unhappy again and he's stuck with me. That would explain why we were able to work through other issues, but with this, I feel like my marriage is falling apart.

Is it possible to have an emotionally intimate relationship with a child of a BPD parent if he never has the courage to see what is wrong?

I've read and will continue to re-read everything on this board. I tried to download the audio "walking on eggshells" but I'm not tech savvy and really struggled with getting the app to work. I hesitate to buy a book about BPD because he would see it and the MC doesn't think it's a good idea to bring it up. If you have resources, links are appreciated.

pj

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« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2019, 11:49:23 AM »

PursuingJoy,

I think it is likely that he has been conditioned his whole life to be enmeshed with his mother, this is what he was taught, this is what he knows, and he doesn't know any other way...he may not even recognize that it could be a problem because to him this is normal. 

What does he get out of it?  He gets to feel good about himself...gets to be the fixer, the hero, the care-taker, the dutiful son etc... which is fine until it becomes all encompassing, out of balance and pushes other things and people out of his life.  Then we have dysfunction.

The thing is that you can't make either of them think, act, believe, do, things they don't want to do.  The only person in this scenario you control is you. You are doing some of this already...Marriage Counseling for example and in spite of his enmeshment your husband is showing up for this.  By doing so I would argue that your marriage is important to him too.  He has had a whole life time of programming by his mother, undoing that will not happen overnight.  It is your decision if you have the patience to continue to wait while he works through things or for how long.

I went through much the same thing with my Partner and his uBPDxw.  When I first met him he was still doing the dysfunctional dance they did during their marriage, and he was deep in the FOG.  It took a couple of years for him to really get out from under it.  I came close more than once to breaking things off with him, but I did see him making progress, taking steps to disengage (he couldn't completely they have 2 daughters) and I was learning as well about BPD and how to negotiate it. (Finding this site was super helpful  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)) I would think about leaving but loved my Partner he was a really good fit for me so in spite of the crazy drama and I mean crazy! I just couldn't throw the baby (my partner) out with the bathwater (his ex and her shenanigans). Over time things improved, their daughters got older, set up boundaries regarding their mom, and she became less and less of a factor in our relationship. 

That said if he had continued down the drama path with his ex I likely would have decided at some point that it was too much and no longer worth it for me.  But because of learning about BPD, boundaries, radical acceptance (the ex is gonna do what she's gonna do), and my learning to let things go that I had no control over things got better. 

Think about what you can control...can you set some boundaries that protect you?  Think about what you don't control...what can you let go of?

Panda39
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« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2019, 01:38:27 PM »

I've lost so much respect for my husband. Does the need to tell her everything tie into his need for her love? I'm trying to understand what is behind his desperate need to stay enmeshed.

Hi pursuingJoy, I unfortunately don't have any words of wisdom for what to do, and even if I did it wouldn't be near as helpful as what Panda39 said. Hoping maybe I can give insight into the above questions though.

I don't think the level of enmeshment you described matched where I was, but as far as we can tell my sister does share more with my mom than her husband. However, I did/do have my own programming from a lifetime of being in the system with which I struggle. And I'll be honest, it makes zero sense even to me. I'll put it this way... I'm 39, and I'm 3 years into my road of trying to break out of the system. I have been actively and willingly trying to understand and fight this programming for 3 years. The past 3 months, I have witnessed my parents do/say things that 99% of people say is appalling and unacceptable (2 of many actual words used) as they try to coerce us back into the fold. We've heard stories about things they've said about us that have had us both physically shaking with anger and hurt. Whenever my phone vibrates with a message, my heart jumps for a moment with panic wondering what it is (this has gotten better now that they are blocked).

And despite this. Despite everything they have said/done, despite countless friends and peers saying the only true option is to step away, despite every ounce of awareness I've gained over the past 3 years, my mom still reduced me to a useless mess last night with an email that contained 3 words... "Please contact me". I was suddenly fighting my programming again. I found myself trying to imagine her emotional state. I found myself wondering what she wanted. If she was mad at me, or if she wanted to be nice. I found myself feeling obligated to respond.

I didn't respond. And a few minutes ago I finally mustered the willpower to filter her emails straight to deletion. And I feel like a horrible person because of it. But my stress has me physically feeling puny today, and I feel like I have to do something.

All that to say that I am very frustrated with myself. It's like I'm standing in a bed of burning coal just because that's what I've always known, and I'm finally becoming aware of the pain. And everyone on the outside keeps telling me to just step out of it, and I say "OK" and step one foot out but keep forgetting the other foot, all while my FOO is working to pull me back in. I told my wife the other day I feel like a fool, that it seems so obvious to everyone else but me.

I guess what I'm saying is for me at least, I don't see it as a "need" to stay in the dysfunction, but more like trying to correct 39 years of bad posture, which would be hard enough on it's own, but your FOO keeps beating you over the head with the idea that old way is really the correct way.

Panda39 is spot on, to your husband, it's normal. And it's unlikely anyone can tell him otherwise. He's going to have to realize it for himself. And if/when he does, it's at that point you can be there to ease him into the world of healthier relationships. I'm not sure what it would take, I know in my case it took me confronting my mom on something that visibly hurt my wife's feelings, and my mom then overplaying her hand in her response enough to make me realize something wasn't right.

In the end you'll need to do what is best for your own sanity, because I know my wife's was hanging by a thread a few times. Just please know your husband's relationship with his mom doesn't reflect on you. And I don't think it's a matter of him having courage to see what is wrong, he either will or he won't. I'm still hoping for the former for y'all! But if/when he does, THEN he'll need the courage to fight his way out of it.
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« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2019, 03:27:26 PM »

Who we attract, and who we are attracted to, is influenced by our family of origin. I have seen this idea repeated in marriage books. It isn't just about the two of you- we all do this.

Our parents are powerful role models and when we pair up with people, we tend to pair up with people who feel familiar to us and if dysfunction is familiar, we may end up in a dysfunctional relationship or one with some issues to work out, at least.

This doesn't mean any of us ended up marrying someone exactly like our BPD mothers ( thank goodness) but that we take behavior patterns like poor boundaries, enabling, enmeshment into our marriages.

These behaviors were actually adaptive when we were children. We had to survive/exist in our families and so we learned the family behaviors. Out of the family, they are dysfunctional. They don't work, but they feel familiar to us. It's hard to see them as "not working" when they did for a long time.

Your H's behavior is what he needed to do to survive and co-exist in his family. It feels normal to him. From the outside- it doesn't look normal to you. You want him to change, but he needs to be able to see the issues and want to change.

One motivation for me to look at my FOO patterns was the issues in my marriage. I knew that my family had issues, but my H refused to look at his. I wanted him too because I thought it would help us, but he didn't see any issues. They were his "normal". My family issues were obvious as my mother's behaviors were off the rail, but I thought my father was the normal sane one. I learned later about co-dependency and he was very co-dependent. So was I, and so is my mother in law, and that was one match between my H's family and mine.

What do you do when only one person is motivated to work on a marriage? We can't change the other person. However, if one person changes their own dysfunction, it may have an impact on the interactions between the two people. On one hand it could lead to the partner feeling uncomfortable that the familiar pattern is changed, but on the other hand this change may lead to positive adjustments.

You are in a triangle with your H and his mother. It seems you are doing the work on the dysfunction in their relationship. As long as you are doing this, he doesn't have to. You can remain the "persecutor" while he stays the mom pleaser, the rescuer. Mom gets to be victim ( see the Karpman triangle).

One option is to let him deal with her, however he does. He may need to come to his own conclusions on his own. As long as I was critical of my H's family, he would get angry, but over time, he also began to see the dynamics.

I did counseling on my own and that may help you too, even if your H won't do it.
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pursuingJoy
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« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2019, 03:30:04 PM »

What does he get out of it?  He gets to feel good about himself...gets to be the fixer, the hero, the care-taker, the dutiful son etc... which is fine until it becomes all encompassing, out of balance and pushes other things and people out of his life.  Then we have dysfunction.

I like the way you put this.

Behaviors he learned from his mom played out with his ex, too, an abusive NPD woman he had two kids with. It was really tough at first. He felt tied to her because of the kids and was afraid to speak up for fear she'd put them in the middle or use them to get what she wanted. It took 3+ years but we were able to work through it because he was willing to break from her.

The difference here is that it's his mom. Nothing is wrong, he doesn't want a break from her, he craves her attention.

You talk about radical acceptance: he will probably not ever be able to accept that his relationship with his mom is anything less than perfect. What do I do with that.

Think about what you can control...can you set some boundaries that protect you?  Think about what you don't control...what can you let go of?

You are absolutely right on the money with this and I'm trying to figure this out. MC is great because we are able to work through our communication patterns, albeit slowly. As issues arise, I'm working to voice them, then drop them (don't JADE). I need to do a better job of exercising and taking vitamins. Last week I met a friend for lunch and took my daughter shopping. I don't feel like doing these things but I know they minimize insanity Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

I told my wife the other day I feel like a fool, that it seems so obvious to everyone else but me.

I knew enough about personality disorders and healthy relationships from years of therapy, I should have caught that something wasn't right with my husband. But we're not fools, nor is anyone on this board. We're doing the best we can with the knowledge we have, and we're wading through some heavy emotions to do the hard work.   With affection (click to insert in post) Virtual hug (click to insert in post)

It's like I'm standing in a bed of burning coal just because that's what I've always known, and I'm finally becoming aware of the pain.

Wow that's a powerful image. When I went to therapy for my abusive dad and husband and 'woke up' for the first time, it felt like lying on a cold metal table. It was like I could see them cutting me, they had been for a long time, but for the first time in my life I could actually feel it. It sucked. I'll never forget that. But you're aware now, and that's amazing!

You're going to get through this, ProudDad12. I relied heavily on the wisdom of people around me, I took steps they told me to take even if they didn't make emotional sense, and I came out stronger. You can do this and in the end, it will be so worth it.  Virtual hug (click to insert in post) Virtual hug (click to insert in post) Virtual hug (click to insert in post) You're protecting your wife and making sure your kids never have to go through this and that's amazing, too!

It sounds like both sides (FOO and the people it seems obvious to) are tugging at you pretty hard? My husband feels so stretched too. Sometimes I want to ask him, "What do YOU want?" If he felt allowed to have an opinion, would the differing opinions of people he loved tear at him so much? Do you think that's something you're going through? The process of individuation?

Just please know your husband's relationship with his mom doesn't reflect on you.

This is tough, because I feel like it does. (ugh...crying) I need to channel some of your wife's superpower patience. Having seen what I've seen, it's a very good possibility that he married me to appease his mom and get back into her good graces. It's such a part of who he is, I don't think he can help it. His complete and utter denial reminds me of addiction, honestly.

In fairness, like Panda pointed out, he is in counseling. In the way he can, he loves me and I love him. I've also seen glimpses (not sure I could explain them, other than to say it's a look in his eyes here and there) of something deep that he can't explain, something he wants or doesn't like that he can't verbalize. I'll keep praying that that tiny something comes to the surface.

until then, I have you guys.
pj

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pursuingJoy
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« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2019, 03:46:41 PM »

Who we attract, and who we are attracted to, is influenced by our family of origin. I have seen this idea repeated in marriage books. It isn't just about the two of you- we all do this.

So true. My family is also dysfunctional and in my case, recovery from codependence is a lifetime commitment. I've often told my husband that what's broken in me is attracted to what's broken in him and vice versa.

Out of the family, they are dysfunctional. They don't work, but they feel familiar to us. It's hard to see them as "not working" when they did for a long time.

This is a really good point, so it makes sense why the MC is focusing on new coping and communication methods, in a way, to convince him there's a different way of doing it.

However, if one person changes their own dysfunction, it may have an impact on the interactions between the two people. On one hand it could lead to the partner feeling uncomfortable that the familiar pattern is changed, but on the other hand this change may lead to positive adjustments.

So glad you said this. I've started to offer some reassurance that I know changing things up with his mom is uncomfortable for him. Realizing that I need to sit with his discomfort, too.

You are in a triangle with your H and his mother. It seems you are doing the work on the dysfunction in their relationship. As long as you are doing this, he doesn't have to. You can remain the "persecutor" while he stays the mom pleaser, the rescuer. Mom gets to be victim ( see the Karpman triangle).

I know, and I'm trying like heck to get off the triangle. I try to avoid talking about her.  If I talk to him about us, I don't talk about dysfunction, I talk about what we're working towards. I am working to be more affirming/validating with him. I see a thousand things I could 'pick' at in regards to their relationship, but I work hard to slow down, step back and figure out if there's a part I can change. I'm really trying. 

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pursuingJoy
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« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2019, 04:51:11 PM »


What do you do when only one person is motivated to work on a marriage? We can't change the other person. However, if one person changes their own dysfunction, it may have an impact on the interactions between the two people. On one hand it could lead to the partner feeling uncomfortable that the familiar pattern is changed, but on the other hand this change may lead to positive adjustments.

I ran away with related thoughts when I replied to this earlier.  Adding to say yes, I recognize that I can add to the dysfunction or change my own responses, and that changing my responses may or may not have a positive impact. My husband said today that he missed understanding me. I'm ok with his discomfort because I know it can lead to better things, but I have to be careful not to be perceived as withholding like his mom does.
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« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2019, 08:43:30 PM »

You're going to get through this, ProudDad12. I relied heavily on the wisdom of people around me, I took steps they told me to take even if they didn't make emotional sense, and I came out stronger. You can do this and in the end, it will be so worth it.  Virtual hug (click to insert in post) Virtual hug (click to insert in post) Virtual hug (click to insert in post) You're protecting your wife and making sure your kids never have to go through this and that's amazing, too!

Thank you for the encouragement! Promise I wasn't fishing for it though, just trying to provide insight into the mudpit of this BPD/enmeshment stuff  Smiling (click to insert in post)

It sounds like both sides (FOO and the people it seems obvious to) are tugging at you pretty hard? My husband feels so stretched too. Sometimes I want to ask him, "What do YOU want?" If he felt allowed to have an opinion, would the differing opinions of people he loved tear at him so much? Do you think that's something you're going through? The process of individuation?

My FOO is definitely tugging, the others are just trying to provide perspective where they can. I sometimes have to text certain friends things that happen, as a "normal people check" to make confirm it's unusual/unhealthy/etc. Kinda embarrassing sometimes. But I can relate to what you're saying. There were many, many times I've felt like my wants/needs/opinions didn't matter, just due to the nature of being stuck between the dysfunction of my FOO and trying to have a healthy marriage. That didn't mean it was true, it's just a crummy situation to navigate. It's one of the reasons your situation is tricky, trying to honor your own needs while being aware of the tugging dynamics. In the case of us, while my wife was clear about her feelings, she never forced me into the corner of "me or them". That was always big for me.

In fairness, like Panda pointed out, he is in counseling. In the way he can, he loves me and I love him. I've also seen glimpses (not sure I could explain them, other than to say it's a look in his eyes here and there) of something deep that he can't explain, something he wants or doesn't like that he can't verbalize. I'll keep praying that that tiny something comes to the surface.

Maybe time can help with this. It was always hard for me to put my finger on certain things related to this. But the more we went to counseling, and the more I read/etc, I began to add to my vocabulary and learn new relational and psychological concepts. That helped me give shape to elusive thoughts/feelings, helping my understanding, my awareness, and helping me to articulate a little better. I hope the longer y'all go to counseling, the more he will be able and want to do the same. It sounds to me like your instincts are telling you there's hope in there!

Until then, one of the best things you can do is continue showing your love. The better your relationship is outside of and despite the issues related to his mom, the more stimulus he'll have to pull away from the enmeshment. Not sure if that makes sense, but for context, when I finally stood up to my parents 3 years ago, it was during a time that my wife and I were especially happy in our marriage, making me feel all the more protective.

until then, I have you guys.

Yes you do!
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« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2019, 06:45:07 AM »

In the case of us, while my wife was clear about her feelings, she never forced me into the corner of "me or them". That was always big for me.

I'm glad to see this because putting someone in a position to choose doesn't work well. My mother does this. To me, it's a reflection of her black and white thinking.

One idea that resonated with me during counseling/co-dependency groups is the idea of not going to extremes. "them or me" is the opposite of two big choices.

I also found that the most effective thing for my relationships with anyone- spouse, parents, kids- was to work on my own issues which leaned towards co-dependency. It was probably inevitable that this would be the result of growing up with my parents. I was raised to feel responsible for my mother's feelings and all of us took on the task of being her emotional caretaker. We kids also learned to be sensitive to her moods. That was survival.

So it isn't a surprise that we feel a pull when others, particularly our family, feel any discomfort. It's the "normal" we grew up with. It's so automatic. To change this pattern we need to be aware of what we are doing as well as tolerate the fears we have from not stepping in to soothe/fix/do/step into our roles with our families. The fears have a reason- we were scared as kids, scared of losing our parents' love.

By managing these feelings better, I have been able to relate to my mother better. As a child, it made sense to be fearful of her. But she can't hurt me now. She can say mean things, do whatever, but I don't depend on her for my own survival like I did as a child. If I set a boundary and she's angry, I can manage my own reactions. I don't feel good when I do this. I don't want to cause her distress, but then, I also don't think it's good to be her enabler. Admittedly, this has been easier for me to do since my father passed away. I was more attached to him and so more fearful of losing his approval and any anger on his part. Anything I might have done that caused my mother any distress would make him angry and I didn't want him to be angry at me.

Pursuing Joy- your H's behaviors are instinctual to him. They were there before he met you. It's his "normal". It's good he is aware and working on them, but it is also his work to do. He needs to be managing the fears and feelings that come with changing his role in his family of origin. Since you two have complimentary issues- actually working on your part will help the dynamics overall. Ironically when you do this, what your H does might bother you less.
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« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2019, 07:19:12 AM »

That didn't mean it was true, it's just a crummy situation to navigate. It's one of the reasons your situation is tricky, trying to honor your own needs while being aware of the tugging dynamics. In the case of us, while my wife was clear about her feelings, she never forced me into the corner of "me or them". That was always big for me.

Thanks for validating the trickiness. I very much understand and honor that he wants a relationship with his mom, and (not but) I want to be able to share how I feel when he prioritizes her. While I work through the intense emotions (to include feelings of confusion, betrayal, and hurt) I mention only 1 out of every 10 things that concern me, then drop it. It takes a mountain of self-control. As you said, Notwendy, hopefully as I do my work it will become easier to let go of his hurtful behavior.

Not sure if that makes sense, but for context, when I finally stood up to my parents 3 years ago, it was during a time that my wife and I were especially happy in our marriage, making me feel all the more protective.

This makes sense and I'll tuck it away. I admit at the moment it does make me feel some strong emotions, like: Of course! Why would he protect me when he doesn't even like me? If I could just be loving and happy, maybe he would care about me. Maybe if I wasn't such a brat with impossible standards and just let him be himself, he would turn this way instead of focusing only on his mom. <-- All codependent, unhealthy thoughts that are coming from a desire to control and elicit a response.  

I'm not too much, I'm not asking for too much. He is overwhelmed AND I'm worth protecting. I can and should protect myself if he is unable. (Trying to change the narrative in my head.)

It does really help to try to understand where he's coming from, because my responses can become informed rather than emotional. I also need to think about what I need, how I can adjust my own behavior, and how I can take care of myself. You've all shared some really important insight I've been thinking a lot about. It's a really tough season for me. tThanks for being here.

pj
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« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2019, 08:20:39 AM »

Why would he protect me when he doesn't even like me? If I could just be loving and happy, maybe he would care about me. Maybe if I wasn't such a brat with impossible standards and just let him be himself, he would turn this way instead of focusing only on his mom. <-- All codependent, unhealthy thoughts that are coming from a desire to control and elicit a response.  

I'm not too much, I'm not asking for too much. He is overwhelmed AND I'm worth protecting. I can and should protect myself if he is unable. (Trying to change the narrative in my head.)


I am not sure what is going on with these statements but somehow, your H's situation seems to be triggering your emotions.

One thing I learned is that spouses can trigger each other, but rather than react emotionally as if they are doing something to you- consider- whose "trigger" is this?
Why are we triggered? Rather than see this as a bad thing, they become opportunities to learn about ourselves.

My H and my mother are different, yet, he had just enough behaviors to trigger ( from my childhood) emotions and a reaction on my part. But who is responsible for this? I didn't like the behaviors, but looking at how I responded helped me to manage feeling triggered.

Once I started to work on feeling triggered- something amazing happened. I was speaking to my mother and she said something that would have pushed an emotional button. And I didn't feel it. It was amazing. It's not that I don't feel emotionally pushed at times, I still do, but I recognize it as being about me- not anyone else.

What is it you want your H to protect you from? Yes, if a bear ran into your house, I sure hope your H would protect his family however he can. But his mother saying things to you has no such power unless she has attempted to physically harm you. What if you were able to disempower her by not feeling as hurt by her behavior?

But I do get the need, because I wish my father had stood up to my mother for me more, but looking at this, I think he did what he could to protect us in the best of his ability. He made sure we had a safe comfortable place to live, our material needs met. He drove me to school, helped me with homework. He did a lot of things for me.

So yes I would want my H to be more protective of my feelings, but he can't relate to this feeling because he didn't grow up in the same situation. He does protect us in the ways he does- he checks behind me to see that I locked the door at night. He puts air in my tires when they get low. He provides for his family. But if I have an emotional reaction- that's mine to work on.
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« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2019, 09:23:02 AM »

One thing again it your B's relationship with his mother that seems to cause confusion with everyone (and that I suspect triggers you) is his position that his mother is his "best friend."

 That sounds peculiar to me, especially for a married man with children.

What is a "best friend" ? What does this mean to your H?

There is no way I have a relationship with my mother that I would call a "best friend" relationship. She has proved herself too invalidating and intrusive in my privacy -- although she learned and respected my boundaries once I had them.
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« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2019, 04:09:50 PM »

I am not sure what is going on with these statements but somehow, your H's situation seems to be triggering your emotions.

You are 100% correct, it does trigger me! I can remember feeling like a burden to my parents since I could walk. Years of therapy helped me understand the abuse and dysfunction, boundary setting with my family helped me learn new habits and ways of dealing with things.

What I thought were years of normal conflict were filled with gaslighting by my husband and MIL. I think I have been in this situation long enough that old wounds have opened back up.  

What if you were able to disempower her by not feeling as hurt by her behavior?

I need to continue to disengage emotionally when she is around. I've made strides. I have given up any idea that she might change, hopefully stepping towards radical acceptance.

I feel confident that I can deal with her. What's more challenging for me is when they gang up on me, although I can see how what you're suggesting could help here, too. A few months ago he told me she was upset I didn't call. Apparently she had an expectation that I should call to apologize and she wanted that to happen by a certain time. She was angry, he was angry. Instead of getting defensive, I simply asked, with curiosity, why there was a deadline, and when she had communicated the deadline. He didn't have an answer for either so I dropped it and changed the subject.

So yes I would want my H to be more protective of my feelings, but he can't relate to this feeling because he didn't grow up in the same situation. He does protect us in the ways he does- he checks behind me to see that I locked the door at night. He puts air in my tires when they get low. He provides for his family. But if I have an emotional reaction- that's mine to work on.

I feel like most of my work right now is just managing my emotions responsibly. You are so right, emotional triggers belong to those feeling them. This would be true for my husband and his mom, too, right? I'm wondering if I also need to learn to let them sit with the discomfort my boundaries create.

In most other areas of life my H is very supportive/protective of me and my feelings. He's not a provider like yours, but our emotional connection is a part of our relationship that I've enjoyed and valued. If I face a challenging day at work, I share it with him. He might get me to think about another perspective, or challenge me to speak up, or he might just validate.

When his mom and I got our feelings hurt at the same time, he yelled accusations at me in the car for two hours. It was seriously out of control. If I hadn't been worn down from years of trying to work around them, maybe I could have mindfully recognized that he was triggered. (Although even in the best of mindsets, I think it may have hurt my feelings to have him yell accusations. It still makes me cry.)

One thing again it your B's relationship with his mother that seems to cause confusion with everyone (and that I suspect triggers you) is his position that his mother is his "best friend."

 That sounds peculiar to me, especially for a married man with children.

What is a "best friend" ? What does this mean to your H?

Yeah this was definitely one of the more twilight zone moments so far...it hurt my feelings for sure but thankfully this one's weird enough that, for better or worse, it's a little harder to take seriously.

We were arguing and he said "she's my best friend, she was before you came along and will be after you..." to justify his closeness with her and get me to back off. He has apologized for other things said in the heat of the moment - this, he explains and defends.

He couldn't explain it later except to say that she was a really 'good' friend, always had been and always would be. He's also told me in the past that growing up he barely knew his mom, he was always close to his dad. His dad died, and so much happened in the years that followed...mostly she was angry with him for having an affair. When we started dating, I remember our relationship was bringing him closer to his mom for the first time. So that was the first I'd heard that they'd always been best friends.

I've also heard him say a thousand times that a wife comes before kids and parents.

If I step back and look at it, there has to be a part of him that is profoundly confused about the way he is reacting. He's violating a personal value to maintain his connection to her, and it's not the first time he's done that.

I think as I write. I can't thank you enough for reading and posting your observations. It's so helpful.

pj
« Last Edit: November 13, 2019, 04:15:32 PM by pursuingJoy » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2019, 05:21:46 PM »

Two things...

1). FF is a huge proponent of "asking questions with genuine curiosity."  He can help you with this. Think of curiosity as another tool in your tool belt. The trick here is to identify what you don't understand about someone's actions of words and come up with a question that expressed curiosity and not challenge.  The mildest form of this is when your privacy is being violated. Say someone asks an intrusive question -- "So when are you and hubbie having a baby? -- and you reply, "That's a really personal decision. Why would you ask?" It establishes a boundary and puts the responsibility for the boundary-bust back on them.

 2) Yes, you need to let them sit with their decisions and behavior. Neither your MIL not your husband are able to self soothe. They can learn when you give them the room to do it.
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« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2019, 06:23:37 PM »

What other support do you have with this- considering your childhood? Are you seeing a counselor?

I recall dragging my reluctant husband to marital therapy. The counselor told me I was co-dependent and told me to go to some 12 step meetings. I was a bit miffed. I knew I had issues to work on but why me only? H, could sit there feeling confirmed that there wasn't anything wrong with his side of this or his own family background. Yes, the issues were all my fault, right?

Later I realized the MC was brilliant. She had both of us figured out. Between the two of us- she knew I would accept what she said, do the work, and I did. I was so motivated. I didn't want to continue the dysfunction- with my H, with my parents- with anyone. My H on the other hand didn't think there was anything he needed to work on. Because he had no idea. Also his way of self soothing was to blow up at me. I didn't do that. Blowing up is a form of emotional "vomit"- they feel better afterwards, we don't.

Whatever is going on between your H and his mother is somehow working for them to manage their feelings. Gagirl is correct to see that they can't self soothe. Often two people who can't self soothe pair up together. The co-dependent self soothes by trying to manage their partner's feelings. The partner manages by blowing up at the co-dependent. Add MIL to the mix and you have some form of Karpman triangle going on.

When you are better able to manage your own discomfort you won't step in as much to try to fix your H's situation. Then, you can sit back and let them deal with their issues.

ACA was about children of alcoholics, but the dynamics also fit other family dysfunction and so this group has helped me along with CODA groups. You may want to check them out. Groups and a sponsor has been a great help to me along with this board.

Sounds like your H and his mother have poor boundaries with each other. IMHO, I'd stay out of this. When you protest you become the persecutor in the triangle. Hubby becomes her rescuer. That's why they ganged up on you when she was upset. Ugh, I don't blame you for being upset with this. I think your way of disengaging was good. I would continue this. Don't add any emotion to this drama. Self care can help - if she's upset and your H joins in- don't JADE, don't say much. Simply excuse yourself " I am sorry if I offended you" or something neutral then say " I need to excuse myself,  have to ------ (whatever- mail a package, check the food in the oven, make something up) . Without drama, these things tend to fizzle out.
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« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2019, 10:56:28 AM »

Quick observation about something that happened last night. H's truck finally bit the dust. He came home very upset and anxious, saying over and over that he didn't know what to do, he had to find a vehicle, he has to pick up his kids, etc.

Every time this has happened in the past, his first call has been to his mom. She pays for it, or lets him take out a loan, I find out what they've decided several days later. After discussing this communication pattern in MC, he came home and shared it with me first. I listened to him worry until he came up with a few viable plans, offering encouragement, support and suggestions, but mostly support for his ideas.

After he decided what to do, he was almost giddy...joking and laughing. Then I sensed a part of him that was angry at me, like I owed him something because he came to me first. I didn't take it personally. It was like he conquered something scary, so he was happy, but he was angry because...? Is he nervous about not going to his mom? I can feel what he felt, I understand it, but I don't know how to put it into words. I didn't and won't bring it up with him, just sharing here.

Yes, you need to let them sit with their decisions and behavior. Neither your MIL not your husband are able to self soothe. They can learn when you give them the room to do it.

I like the idea of curiosity and questions as a tool - tucking that away.

Do you really think they'll self soothe, though? Based on what I've seen, they soothe each other.

What other support do you have with this- considering your childhood? Are you seeing a counselor?

Currently we see the MC together but we also see her individually. Between my MIL and D16 that was suicidal last year I have been in therapy on and off for the past 3 years.

Later I realized the MC was brilliant.

I've experienced similar feelings with our MC, and with you all here. I'm aware that I'm emotionally overwhelmed so my reactions are causing more problems, and I'm taking the baby steps necessary to unlearn bad habits that came back. I've never considered a 12 step program, I'd be open to that.

When you are better able to manage your own discomfort you won't step in as much to try to fix your H's situation. Then, you can sit back and let them deal with their issues.

Without drama, these things tend to fizzle out.


They both want me to be emotionally involved with her, something I've resisted (and they've resented) since the beginning. I'm concerned that 'sitting back and letting them deal with their issues' will result in my husband resenting me even more, but I can't control that, can I?
 
I feel like I am getting a clear idea of what to drop/leave alone/step away from. For now I am proactively working on managing my overwhelming emotions (controlling what I share with him, improving mindfulness, grieving hurt, self-care, sharing limited pieces with friends, and sharing here) as well as improving communication patterns with my husband in MC. Does anything else stand out that I can be proactively working towards?

pj
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« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2019, 08:59:52 AM »

How old is your H?

It seems that the two of you both have childhood trauma of some sorts. What I have seen in this situation is that each person reenacts the trauma with each other, both looking at each other to somehow soothe or repair this. But we aren't capable of doing this for someone else and when our partner "fails" we think it is a failure on their part.  We need to learn to work on our own trauma.

In some families, the adult looks to the child to meet their emotional needs. This puts the child in a situation that isn't appropriate. It both makes the child feel special. "mommy's little man" as well as violated as this isn't their purpose and children need to have their emotional needs met, not the other way around.

Perhaps your H both wants this "feeling special" as well as resents it?

Often there's gaps in development for the child- they are both "parentified" to be older than they are but lack the nurturing and time spent as a child. Your H may be both- his mother's shoulder to lean on ( which makes him feel special) and needs the assurance of a teen age boy. If a teen ager were to have an issue with their truck- the first person to contact would be their parents. I don't know what financial agreements you have, but as one household, I would think a major purchase like a truck or repairs for the truck and how to cover the costs would be a discussion between the adult partners.
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« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2019, 11:45:44 AM »

Notwendy I think you hit the nail on the head. I see both infantilization and parentification in my H and MIL's relationship. Interesting to note that in MC, when we talked about his ex's parentification of their kids (ex saying things like, "I can't wait until you're old enough to take care of me" and kids coaching their mom through a drunken phone call at 11:30 pm), he could see the issue.

I'm aware of the trauma that occurred in my own childhood. H insists that his childhood was ideal, from values to parenting and everything in between. I suspect that there was something very 'off' but I'm not in a position to say what it might be. He has shared with me on several occasions that other family members "accused" his mom of favoring him and being too hard on his only brother, who committed suicide 20 years ago. Maybe golden child/scapegoat dynamics? He and his mom cut off those family members and won't speak to them anymore.
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« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2019, 02:03:53 PM »

And he's 44.
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