Working Towards a Temporary Arrangement

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

With my motion filed to change custody of our two children, uBPDxw and I had to attend a mandatory orientation at the courthouse last Wednesday.  Apparently all custody motions have to go through a mediation step (provided at no cost by the court), so they provided some education about what that process looks like--and of course promoted the benefits of not dragging things out and tying up court resources in a trial. 

uBPDxw informed me in no uncertain terms during family therapy on Thursday that she will not agree to any permanent change in custody.  Basically saying she would have walked out of any mediation after meeting the court ordered requirement to show up.  To be fair, my L had advised me to do the same if uBPDxw would not consider any reduction, so clearly we wouldn't have been in mediation for long.

My L was in contact with the family T late last week and discussed the possibility of creating a temporary change designed to meet therapeutic goals for the kids.  I am on board with this approach since it would preserve our ability to continue working with the family T (because if we go to trial, she would be deposed, and she explained in our session on Thursday that this would severely impede her ability to continue working with us).  I would like to avoid the cost of a custody trial, and certainly don't want to have to start over with a new family T, but whatever we do has to have some sticking power.

My L had a conference call this morning with opposing counsel and the family T.  Prior to that call, I sent some schedule options that I had worked out along with the following requirements for her to keep in mind:

1.  A staged approach:
       a.  Stage 1 = The temporary arrangement currently being discussed
       b.  Stage 2 = Adding back 1-2 days per two-week period that D10 spends with uBPDxw (where both children would be with uBPDxw since under Stage 1 uBPDxw would only have one child at a time)
       c.  Stage 3 = Return to the schedule as established in the current consent order
2.  Must establish specific conditions to be met before we move from one stage to the next.  I will not agree to this arrangement being only based on time.  It must result in sustainable improvement for both children.  Family T can advise on options, including:
       a.  Assessment by D10's treating therapist (with agreement from family T) that clinical concerns regarding eating disorder are resolved
       b.  Assessment by D10's treating therapist (with agreement from family T) that D10's relationship with uBPDxw is more stable
       c.  Assessment by family T (and any additional treating therapist) that S6's relationship with D10's is more healthy
       d.  uBPDxw submits to specific, measured psychiatric evaluation (such as the MMPI 2) by a qualified professional to further inform and enable successful treatment (at uBPDxw's cost)
       e.  uBPDxw's successful completion of additional treatment (at uBPDxw's cost)
       f.  Confirmation of status via impartial custody evaluation (with cost split evenly between the parties)

I will be meeting with my L later today to draft a proposal and could use any additional thoughts/input you all may have...

mw

[mama-wolf]

With my motion filed to change custody of our two children, uBPDxw and I had to attend a mandatory orientation at the courthouse last Wednesday.  Apparently all custody motions have to go through a mediation step (provided at no cost by the court), so they provided some education about what that process looks like--and of course promoted the benefits of not dragging things out and tying up court resources in a trial. 

uBPDxw informed me in no uncertain terms during family therapy on Thursday that she will not agree to any permanent change in custody.  Basically saying she would have walked out of any mediation after meeting the court ordered requirement to show up.  To be fair, my L had advised me to do the same if uBPDxw would not consider any reduction, so clearly we wouldn't have been in mediation for long.

My L was in contact with the family T late last week and discussed the possibility of creating a temporary change designed to meet therapeutic goals for the kids.  I am on board with this approach since it would preserve our ability to continue working with the family T (because if we go to trial, she would be deposed, and she explained in our session on Thursday that this would severely impede her ability to continue working with us).  I would like to avoid the cost of a custody trial, and certainly don't want to have to start over with a new family T, but whatever we do has to have some sticking power.

My L had a conference call this morning with opposing counsel and the family T.  Prior to that call, I sent some schedule options that I had worked out along with the following requirements for her to keep in mind:

1.  A staged approach:
       a.  Stage 1 = The temporary arrangement currently being discussed
       b.  Stage 2 = Adding back 1-2 days per two-week period that D10 spends with uBPDxw (where both children would be with uBPDxw since under Stage 1 uBPDxw would only have one child at a time)
       c.  Stage 3 = Return to the schedule as established in the current consent order
2.  Must establish specific conditions to be met before we move from one stage to the next.  I will not agree to this arrangement being only based on time.  It must result in sustainable improvement for both children.  Family T can advise on options, including:
       a.  Assessment by D10's treating therapist (with agreement from family T) that clinical concerns regarding eating disorder are resolved
       b.  Assessment by D10's treating therapist (with agreement from family T) that D10's relationship with uBPDxw is more stable
       c.  Assessment by family T (and any additional treating therapist) that S6's relationship with D10's is more healthy
       d.  uBPDxw submits to specific, measured psychiatric evaluation (such as the MMPI 2) by a qualified professional to further inform and enable successful treatment (at uBPDxw's cost)
       e.  uBPDxw's successful completion of additional treatment (at uBPDxw's cost)
       f.  Confirmation of status via impartial custody evaluation (with cost split evenly between the parties)

I will be meeting with my L later today to draft a proposal and could use any additional thoughts/input you all may have...

mw

[worriedStepmom]

It's difficult when there aren't more concrete goals (ex could argue what "better" really means).  We listed out very specific behaviors that we didn't want to see (e.g., no disparaging of H, me, or SD's T, no threatening to abandon SD).  You could also say something like "she has to follow all recommendations from the family T or the children's Ts for X months".


We also added in a few other things, like
no psychiatric inpatient or extensive outpatient stays (or recommendation by a psychiatrist or therapist) for at least 6 months
no overdoses
no filing false or frivolous reports with state, federal, or local agencies

[mart555]

We also added in a few other things, like
no psychiatric inpatient or extensive outpatient stays (or recommendation by a psychiatrist or therapist) for at least 6 months

This may lead her to not get help when she needs it...   and could make things worse in the end.

Also be wary of recommendations from the ex's psychologist..   mine ended up recommending that my ex gets the matrimonial home (even though it's a source of triggers), and that her recovery is complicated due to not seeing the children enough (kids did not want longer visits because they were not great), followed by another one where she said that she was making great progress (she assaulted a paramedic the week after).     

[zachira]

I know you are between a rock and hard place in a lot of ways. My concern is if you don't file now for a change in the custody that it will get harder to do as time passes because the children will be more damaged and you will have less evidence that you are more easily able to prove. I think you can say that you tried in good faith to do the 50 percent custody, would have liked for the children to have healthy happy relationships with two parents instead of one, now know that the children are suffering terribly when spending time with their other mom and when not with her due to all the long term emotional damage they are suffering. My feelings and thoughts are perhaps very biased in this matter due to growing up in an abusive family that I am low contact with. My heart goes out to you as there are no easy solutions in this case. I especially feel for your children who do not feel safe, knowing that they will be alone for long periods of time with the other parent. I also feel for you knowing that you love your children with all your heart and only want the best for them and are willing to make big sacrifices to help them to have the best childhood possible.

[mama-wolf]

Further consultation with my L today...

She says the temporary order can go on indefinitely, so she doesn't want to even open the door to ending it by putting in stages or a condition for return to the current 50-50 schedule.  She also says that it can become permanent, and if we establish that it's working well for the kids then I'm all for that.

Based on the feedback from our family T, D10 is the one suffering the most in contact with uBPDxw.  S6 is suffering more from the resulting tension between D10 and uBPDxw, and from competition between him and D10 (both of them provoke each other, but she's older and should have more control and her behavior towards him can still be pretty bad).  The therapeutic goals on which my L confirmed alignment with uBPDxw's L are:

• D10 getting stability with regard to her (developing) eating disorder.  It is suggested that D10 is more responsive to mama-wolf and as such, mama-wolf would have primary physical custody of D10 during this healing process.
• S6 to have some space from D10 and the parents can work out these dynamics so the kids will have one on one time with each parent.
• uBPDxw to work on her relationship with D10 one on one and an arrangement where each child is alone with their parent coincides also with S6's need to have space from his sister.
• Time between uBPDxw and D10 less focused on parenting and more focused on enjoying each other's company and doing fun activities
• Both parents to focus on S6 having more boundaries in each home and giving him some control over his behaviors.
• mama-wolf to work with D10 as it relates to her treatment of S6

The resulting proposal is that D10 would be with me six nights out of seven.  S6 would stay mostly on the current 50-50 schedule, except that when D10 goes to uBPDxw, he comes with me. This means that the kids will be with each other on nights they are both me, and will otherwise be with uBPDxw one-on-one.  It will be a lot of additional work for me, and it's not what I was pushing for, but it may be the most realistic option right now...

mw

[zachira]

I think you really have a handle on this and your lawyer knows best. I am glad to hear that the temporary order can go on indefinitely. You have really worked hard on finding an arrangement that will best suit your children while not wanting to take the risk of going to court and have the 50 percent time with each parent become permanent. I know all of this is extremely hard on you. I admire you as a parent and all you are willing to do to help your children. You and your children are in my thoughts and prayers! Do let us know what is happening when you can. Your posts are helpful to other parents who are challenged by sharing custody with a parent that should not have custody.

[worriedStepmom]

That sounds like a good starting plan!  It addresses D's needs, and gives ex one more try to be a good parent to S.  If this doesn't work - once D can't be blamed for S's issues in the other house - then you should be able to have S's time with his other mom reduced further.

It will be a lot more complicated once you have children every single night.  I hope that you have a good support system of friends and family nearby to help with childcare when you need some time off.

[ForeverDad]

One problem I see in setting stages 1, 2, 3 to go back to the old schedule is that it is easy for you to agree to reducing the restrictions (moving from stage 1 to 2 or 2 to 3) but often requires court intervention to go back (she falls off the mental health wagon again).  For some reason courts assume things will only get better and don't think ahead to possible relapses.  And relapses/crises are to be expected.

[mart555]

And relapses/crises are to be expected.

Even with extensive DBT ?

[ForeverDad]

Okay, I admit I'm not a professional.  I'll reply with two illustrative questions.
Do people relapse sometimes in AA?
Wouldn't a lot depend on how studiously the person applies the therapy?

By the time a person gets to our Family Law board things have already gotten serious.  Most who come to this board, from my observation, haven't gotten their spouse to seek meaningful therapy.

[mama-wolf]

Thank you so much, zachira!  The encouragement is much appreciated.

It will be a lot more complicated once you have children every single night.  I hope that you have a good support system of friends and family nearby to help with childcare when you need some time off.

Thanks worriedStepmom...and yes, this was a point of discussion in my therapy session yesterday.  Once I get things settled with what the schedule looks like, I will need to proactively plan some space for self-care.  I am extremely lucky to have my mom living with me (she moved in last year to help me with the kids after my separation), and my sister lives less than 10 minutes away.

For some reason courts assume things will only get better and don't think ahead to possible relapses.  And relapses/crises are to be expected.

That's a very good point, FD, and I think another reason my L didn't want to build in the stages.  If the order can remain in place indefinitely, all I really need now is to understand how it gets changed back.  I'm highly unlikely to initiate a change unless it would be to make the new arrangement permanent (and/or further reduce uBPDxw's time with S6).  So I'm waiting to hear from my L about what uBPDxw's options are to move it back.  As long as I know what to expect, I can prepare for it...up to and including maintaining the right documentation/proof to fight it.

And in regards to your question, mart555...absolutely yes relapses can and should be expected.  uBPDxw has been in ongoing DBT therapy for two years.  She was also in an intensive outpatient program for 10 days straight back in August.  She continues to struggle with boundaries, impulsiveness, emotional volatility, victim mentality, etc. etc.  All it will take is one major stressor in her life, such as another car wreck or something serious happening to a family member, and I have no doubt she will struggle even more. 

One minor example is that her mom was hospitalized for a few days last week, and the GI doctor (who is admittedly a little young) said it's something he's never seen before.  uBPDxw has been under consistent instructions from the family T to communicate primarily through Our Family Wizard, to not communicate with me directly unless it's something urgent (like an illness or flat tire preventing child pick-up)...in support of which we are placed in separate waiting rooms at her office.  But uBPDxw just couldn't keep herself from asking me to come out into the hallway at the family T's office in order to tell me about her mom.  She was manipulating me in front of the kids as she has done so many times in the past, and fishing for emotional support that she still won't accept I can no longer give.  I like her mom and really don't want anything to happen to her.  And I know that if something does, it will be devastating for uBPDxw and will throw her emotional regulation off the rails.

mw

[mart555]

Okay, I admit I'm not a professional.  I'll reply with two illustrative questions.
Do people relapse sometimes in AA?
Wouldn't a lot depend on how studiously the person applies the therapy?

By the time a person gets to our Family Law board things have already gotten serious.  Most who come to this board, from my observation, haven't gotten their spouse to seek meaningful therapy.

Oh don't get me wrong, I wasn't pointing that your statement was innacurate.  I was mainly wondering what the opinion about DBT was on this forum.  My ex is undergoing DBT since February and even in July the behavior was pretty sub-par... yet I fear that court will put emphasis on this along with a letter from the psychologist saying that she is doing DBT. 

[GaGrl]

As long as change needs are well-defined on the far end, this approach sounds workable to me.

But two years of DBT and still that unstable? That doesn't sound as if she's developing self-awareness.

[livednlearned]

She says the temporary order can go on indefinitely, so she doesn't want to even open the door to ending it by putting in stages or a condition for return to the current 50-50 schedule.  She also says that it can become permanent, and if we establish that it's working well for the kids then I'm all for that.

It sounds like your L believes that there is a preponderance of evidence/documentation/testimony to make a custody modification. Given how many people are involved in stabilizing your family, that makes sense.

The therapeutic goals on which my L confirmed alignment with uBPDxw's L are ...

Does this mean that uBPDxw's L is working proactively to suggest a change in schedule?

If so, that's interesting. Is the response coming back from the opposing counsel "yeah, things aren't working, and maybe this is how we adjust the schedule"

[mama-wolf]

Sorry for my delayed follow-up!  The past week has been very hectic with all of this, but I do have an update.  First, to respond to LnL:

Does this mean that uBPDxw's L is working proactively to suggest a change in schedule?

If so, that's interesting. Is the response coming back from the opposing counsel "yeah, things aren't working, and maybe this is how we adjust the schedule"

It's not that uBPDxw's L was being proactive about suggesting a change, but she has definitely been receptive to a proposal that would help keep uBPDxw from going to trial.  I think she was clear on the fact that a change would be recommended and supported by the family T and the PC--with ample evidence on my part as well.  While I might not get what I would want from a trial (primary custody for both kids), uBPDxw would definitely not walk out with the same 50-50 arrangement she had before.

But, that would drag things out over several more months, it would be very expensive for both of us, and it would burn the relationship with the family therapist causing us to have to start over with a new provider.  So, here we are.  Based on the therapeutic goals that the family T discussed with both Ls, and my L's resulting recommendations, I proposed the following for a temporary custody order:

• D10 with me six nights out of seven, and uBPDxw has custody 9am Sunday to 9am Monday
• When D10 is with uBPDxw, S6 stays with me (giving them one-on-one time, and giving me one-on-one time with him)
• Otherwise, S6 stays essentially on the current 2-2-5-5 schedule (which actually works out to more of a 3-2-5-4, where his time with me would be 3 and 5 days, and time with uBPDxw would be 2 or 4 days)

They came back with the following counter-proposal:

• D10 with me seven nights a week, and uBPDxw has custody on Sundays 9am to 6pm
• No change for S6...he stays on the current 2-2-5-5 schedule

From my perspective, uBPDxw didn't want the extra work of having D10 overnight (and taking her to school the next morning). And I am not surprised at all that she refused to give up any time with S6.  This is not my ideal, and presents its own complications with S6 perceiving that he has less time with me--even though there's actually no change from the current schedule for him.  But, it does still give us a chance to address all of those therapeutic goals mentioned previously:

• D10 will get space from uBPDxw (it's their relationship that's the most severely damaged), and I can work on her body image and eating behaviors
• D10 and uBPDxw will have have some time together that can be spent on fun/bonding activities (one-one-one time every other Sunday, and time with S6 on the Sundays in between)
• D10 and S6 will have space from each other,  reducing the antagonism between them
• uBPDxw will have the space to work on her parenting, boundaries, etc. based on reduced responsibility (only one child with her, except from 9am-6pm every other Sunday)
• I can still build in one-on-one time with S6 on the days he is with me.

The most ridiculous thing they tried to put in was for me to keep paying child support at my current levels ($300/month), even though the best-case scenario for uBPDxw that I could calculate based on estimates of her current income would put her at owing me $200/month.  I don't need or want her money, and my focus is on helping my kids heal and get some better stability, so I have agreed not to receive child support for now.  I'm not going to let that door be closed indefinitely, but it's way down on the priority list right now.

It's looking like we should be able to get this arrangement effective by next week, with the family therapist helping to explain the change to the kids.  And we would be "revisiting" this in April at the earliest, though that does not mean anything has to change at that time.  At least it would give me a bit of a break to rest and recover from everything that has been going on up to now...

mw

[Grady]

Mama - That does seem to cover most of what you need.  I think it's better for D10 to not have to spend the night there at all, but it's shame it won't always be the one on one time.  It will just be on you to focus on the time with S6 when you have him to give him the time he needs and also try to help repair the relationship between your kids. 

I also think it's good that you will have four months to give this a chance and not be bothered with things so you can breathe and focus on the kids and their needs.  As for your ex trying to get child support still, that doesn't surprise me.  Good for you for standing your ground.  You did great.

[worriedStepmom]

It's heartbreaking when they deliberately give up time with their kid, isn't it? 

I suspect that now that ex has given up on D, the attention and negative behaviors will shift more towards S.   Those problems will probably start to show up before the 4 months are up.  You'll need to monitor him closely even while the bulk of your attention is on helping address D's issues.

Good luck!

[mama-wolf]

It's heartbreaking when they deliberately give up time with their kid, isn't it? 

Yes, worriedStepmom, it really is.  As you indicated, I do think she has given up on her relationship with D10, and of course has convinced herself that it's because I have turned D10 against her--which I haven't.  I don't think uBPDxw will ever be able to accept the damage her own behavior has done to that relationship.

I suspect that now that ex has given up on D, the attention and negative behaviors will shift more towards S.   Those problems will probably start to show up before the 4 months are up.  You'll need to monitor him closely even while the bulk of your attention is on helping address D's issues.

A very good point and also something I'm concerned about.  I can only hope that my ability to mitigate the influence of her behavior on S6 will be a little better now that D10 will be in an arrangement that's safer for her.  Plus, I will be working with D10 to let me (and help me) focus a bit on S6 while he's with us since D10 will have significant time to have me to herself when he's not.

I discussed with my L, and my motion for a permanent change in custody stays active...it's not being withdrawn with this temporary order going into effect.  I have paid her a flat fee that covers her staying engaged to address any need for adjustments to the temporary order, all the way up through completion of a permanent order for change (whether we go to trial or settle outside of court).

I'm finding it really hard to set this aside and actually relax a little into the knowledge that this is finally done (at least, for now).  It's really difficult not to start focusing on "what will uBPDxw do next, and what will I need to do to address it?"...Hyper-vigilance is a real pain in the a$$.

mw

[mart555]

  I don't think uBPDxw will ever be able to accept the damage her own behavior has done to that relationship.

Do they ever?  My ex think that I am alienating the kids, banning them from communicating with her, ..  she thinks that she was a wonderful mom although admits that she had a few bad moments since the divorce but that these should be put behind... It was linked to her bpd.

Really damaging to the kids but they don't realize it

[ForeverDad]

I know this is an older thread but as an FYI ... I recently learned that the MMPI-2 has been updated to the MMPI-3 ... Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory-3