The "other man" wants to meet - pt 1

[Enabler]

OM decided to drop this on Sunday morning at 4:10am... I have no idea what to make of it, or how to respond.

Dear All

We need to clear the air. I want to set the record straight. I feel called to apologise for my part in the upset to all our lives over the past three or four years. I am willing to accept blame. Whilst my unusual friendship with EnablerW might not be the cause of all our distress, it’s definitely not helped. But let’s assume it continues as a friendship (who knows though, it might not survive beyond this letter), then that fact would appear to be the stumbling-block to a peaceful future for each of us. I’d like to try to promote a way through in unity for all our sakes.

It’s clear to me that every one of the four of us is close to the edge of sanity right now, for very related reasons, and I’ve had a clear vision that this needs to be addressed. By us, and only us. We all need help before we crack beyond repair. No others would be able to get to the bottom of it better than we all can, together, not trying to face it each alone. Our situation is unique, whichever way you look at it, and if we’re honest we also know that we’re each in our own way a bit different from the norm, let’s face it. We could see that as a curse or a blessing (I prefer the latter) but once we face that bald fact, I believe we have the beginnings of salvation: we could define the rest of our lives and those of our loved ones by our response, either giving in to misery and victimhood, or by recognising and embracing the opportunity to be ambassadors for a fresh outlook, visionaries for others who might not be quite so blessed. To turn a stumbling-block into a cornerstone. ‘If life hands you a lemon, make lemonade’.

So yes, I accept blame and I stand up to be counted. But if we leave it there, we won’t get to the truth...it may be an unpalatable truth, with reasons beyond our human understanding, but it still must be faced if we want to build on firm foundations. Truth hurts for a reason. It won’t change by ignoring it. If we obfuscate and prevaricate then all we’re doing is covering up the real picture...but there’s the problem, we each have different truths, so a different picture is revealed for each of us even if we try to be completely objective. And I believe that’s why acceptance and compromise must play the biggest part in this revelation, with the adoption of a mature attitude that allows recrimination to be set aside. It’s easy enough having something else to blame but it obscures the focus so much that the true future, the one that’s divinely mapped out for us, will not happen.

The essence of my letter here is to to give us all the chance to have a free and peaceful life, each of us, in that future, without disadvantaging ourselves now by going down the path of no return. By offering mutual support. Freedom later on will be better for everybody involved rather than holding bitterness and it will involve forgiveness all round and a fresh open new slate. We have one shot at this: a relatively peaceful future or a shaky, insecure existence for all of us.

Which brings me to the nub of why I’m writing this: our children’s perspective. Individually, our love for our children is of paramount importance, that shouldn’t be a surprise of course, but when I take a step back to look at our unusual situation I see each of us pouring our emotional energy into our children with such an intensity that I fear they have become our individual comfort zone, our answer to the questions that we don’t even know we’re asking. That’s not good for children, that we put such pressure on them. And especially our particular children, whose relationship together is beyond credible in its peaceful nature, extraordinary in fact, literally remarkable, a mutual friendship like I’ve never seen before and one which I believe we have a duty to foster: it’s not up to us to decide whether they should be allowed to develop this extraordinary pact just because it doesn’t suit our own circumstances. We’re supposed to be the mature ones, yet they’re showing us how humans should really interact peacefully. And until we sort ourselves out, we will only be hindering them, not setting them a good example. Yes, I know, what utter arrogance this twat’s showing, what an absolute display of self-righteous priggery, you’re all saying, when he’s the one who caused it all in the first place! You might be right, but it’s my truth and I’m appealing to you all to amalgamate yours to see if we can right the wrongs. To show a genuine united front at least for the sake of our children, even if it’s too much of a stretch to think of it as being for each other. So they grow up with happiness around them, not a confused misery that leaves them unsure of who they can trust or who they’re allowed to interact with.

Mistakes have been made. I know I’ve made them. I’m really sorry for the hurt I’ve caused, truly sorry, it actually hurts me inside when I empathise with the pain and suffering that goes with relationship breakdown and to have contributed to that feeling for any one of you makes me condemn myself wholeheartedly. So maybe see this as an olive branch. The word that keeps repeating itself to me as I think about what to write is ‘rapprochement’. I didn’t know properly what it meant so I looked it up and it means “an establishment or resumption of harmonious relations”. Couldn’t be more appropriate.

As usual I’ve veered towards the long and laborious rather than the short and snappy whilst contemplating this epistle, sorry for that, but I guess there’s an explanation: I know that by now, each of you will have torn this up in disgust by about the third paragraph...but then you’d have pieced it back together out of curiosity to read it and re-read it, expressing frustration and anger at the sheer naked effrontery of me trying to promote my own version of reality. But that’s not it. Seriously. I truly believe there’s hope hidden in our grief and I feel a conviction to appeal to your curiosity to reveal it together. Nobody else on Earth knows our situation like us, so rather than blame each other, why not let God’s love reveal itself to repair the brokenness? What have we got to lose? XYZ added yesterday: ‘All the hurts we pick up in our lives can be brought to the cross and given to Jesus. We don’t need to hold on to the past. Jesus suffered and died that we might be healed physically, emotionally, spiritually’.

Jeremiah 29:11 says ‘For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.”

So my last act is to suggest a meeting. A meeting on neutral ground, between the four of us, to see if there’s any way we can kindle that hope and give us each a future without the weight of bitterness. I’ve taken the liberty of sketching out the attached agenda, but feel free to suggest changes to it. I would also suggest that we each make one sacrifice to show a willing intent, maybe each of us giving up a morning of work to indicate the potential importance of this opportunity, so I’d proffer Tuesday morning next week? Please let me know.

Life’s too short to let the misery of this define us forever...if we embrace God’s grace we can bring hope to the future of all those around us.

Love and peace

The agenda can be summarised as total nonsense... although one of the agenda items is "Non-cohabitation guarantee" which I guess takes a formal relationship off the table.

[Skip]

I have no idea what to make of it, or how to respond.

The agenda can be summarised as total nonsense...

Your summary is succinct, for sure. It might help to share it as it seems to be a key ingredient in understanding this letter.

To those that are not totally familiar, can you explain the basics of what this is about.

I'm guessing, that he is talking about his wife and your wife and the children of both families. He is in a relationship with his wife. You in a war with him and your wife. And likely, your wife and he are at war with his wife. Children are in the middle and are the accepting of the situation. Adults are having a tug-o-war with the kids being the rope.

Enabler, why are you reacting so negatively to this. On the surface, it looks like he is opening the door to an adult settlement and compromise transition plan to a post divorce future.

although one of the agenda items is "Non-cohabitation guarantee" which I guess takes a formal relationship off the table.

I don't know much, but I don't read this to suggest that he wants his relationship with your wife to end... if he did, this letter would not be coming to you and her. It  could mean a lot of things... like an agreement by all of you to not have unmarried partners living together for the children's sake (an agreement you all would make). There are other possible subjects that could come under this umbrella.

Why not embrace this. It sounds like a possible avenue to some of the things mentioned in your last thread.

[Enabler]

If life hands you a lemon…..
Agenda
i. Aims  To debunk fears and fallacies  To find the common ground and build on it  To prioritise our children’s well-adjusted development  To use our individual uniqueness for mutual support
 
ii. Recognition that an inconvenient friendship is cast as the cause  Admission of guilt and hurt caused  Inability to stall a natural connection  Mitigating factors, affliction as well as affection  Compromise and acceptance
 
iii. The consequences of rash solutions  Effect on the children  Transparency  Solidarity  Inevitability
 
iv. The divinely-led opportunity to show effective leadership  Unexpected outcome  Demonstration of love vanquishing hatred  Not to follow the crowd  Forgiveness
 
v. The future  A non-cohabitation guarantee  Emphasis on providing a mature example for the children  The encouragement of a wide-minded view  Turning weakness into strength, collectively
 
vi. Summary  Digging deep for the strength to eliminate bitterness and resentment, genuinely  Ensuring everyone gets what they want and makes every effort to understand the feelings of others,  individually  Showing our children that war and recrimination between us is fruitless, there is a better way,  wisely  Shaping our own futures, not to be victim to societal convention,  boldly
Prayer (each to say their own prayer if they want to)

[Enabler]

To those that are not totally familiar, can you explain the basics of what this is about.

I have no idea what the background to this is.

There is nothing on my radar that might prompt me to expect this nor can I see any issues. Our kids are 'friends' but not best best buddies (I asked them). The issues the adults have are not 'coming between them'. I have no objections to my children seeing his children as long as he doesn't come to our home. I would prefer (but have no control over) my W and him not playing happy families doing things like going to a cafe together. That felt a lot like trying to tee up a new family setup together.

[Skip]

I don't think is about the kids friendship, per se'. He is talking about a blended family, Enabler. If he and your wife marry after all the divorces clear the courts, the kids will all be family. He mentions "inability to stall a natural connection" he has with your wife.

He is saying that there are 4 adults at war with each other right now, while the children are doing a better job of accepting and making the best of the situation.

He is asking for a meeting to explore if there is a way the 4 of you can:

"debunk fears" - cohabitation is probably a big concern of his wife "admission of guilt and hurt caused" and "mitigating factors" - this sounds like resolving your recent battle with your wife by admitting guilt among the adults but not to the children "digging deep for the strength to eliminate bitterness and resentment" - this is for the left behind spouses to let go and make the best of things "showing our children that war and recrimination between us is fruitless"  - this is a general statement that the current fighting is only making matter worse, and "shaping our own futures, not to be victim to societal convention,  boldly" - likely means agreeing to some rules in exchange for legitimizing the relationship with your wife to the kids(

Does any of that seem possible?

[Enabler]

I do see that Skip, but I am not at war with him. I don't avoid him, I just choose not to interact with him because he's quite a twisted person and I don't want to interact with him. I have nothing else in common with him other than the drama he and my W are creating and he is not up for productive 2 way conversations about that.

I wrote a response which I haven't sent because frankly I think it's too wordy and I'm not sure I want to engage with him.

I can see that you have put a lot of time and effort into the mail and this is clearly something that’s on your mind at the moment.

I’m a bit of a stickler for definitions of ‘truth’ so please humour me whilst I clarify some definitions:

Fantasy / Delusion - What we believe is The Truth based on cognitive distortions, internal deceit, delusions. Pretty much where we all reside. Note - Fantasy is almost universally different for 2 people and "Folie a deux" is very very very rare. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folie_%C3%A0_deux

Reality - What we SHOULD reasonably expected to believe based on our experiences, facts we have had at our disposal, evidence and other peoples interactions with us. Note for many Fantasy and Reality might be VERY close together, but we all tell ourselves little lies. Note - reality CAN be different for 2 different people.

The Truth - comprised of a set of facts about an event, includes all feelings, actions and causal inputs and ALWAYS makes complete sense. Note - The Truth is almost universally never known by anyone on the very basis that it's far far far too complicated and most people do not have complete awareness with which to construct the truth, nor would any contributor to the Truth agree with the findings of the Truth as they'd prefer to agree with their own Reality... but, we can get pretty close to it.

In a court of law people say they are seeking the truth, actually they are seeking the best and most fitting version of reality which aligns to the facts and evidence they see before them. The court may never fully ascertain The Truth since the defendant may never willingly offer up important motivations with which to establish parts of the picture which is part of the picture of The Truth.

One of the biggest casualties of this period of 4+ years has been has been peoples sense of reality, may I be as bold as to suggest as a direct result of your and Enabler W obfuscating and prevaricating behaviour. I seek to ensure my fantasy is as closely aligned to my reality as possible, to avoid being delusional, my attempts to do this may sometimes appear threatening, maybe because as you say the truth was unpalatable. I think a quote from Laundromat sums it up quite well:

Privacy And Secrecy
Ramon Fonseca: More than anything else, our clients expect one thing from us.
Jürgen Mossack: Privacy.
Ramon Fonseca: Now, privacy and secrecy are two different things. Privacy is locking the bathroom door when you want to take a pee.
Jürgen Mossack: Secrecy, on the other hand, is locking the door because what you are doing in a bathroom is not what people usually do.

I have grieved the death of a genuine sense of reality, knowing in all likelihood I will never receive sufficient honesty from those people around me to give me clarity. I have spoken extensively with my therapist about this and radically accepted that there are some things I’ll never have closure on. I sit comfortably with this now.

Please refrain from projecting your own inner turmoil on me, I for one believe I have a far firmer grip on my sanity than I have in the last 20 years with a far narrower gap between my fantasy and reality. I know you like a song lyric so I think Bea Miller says it nicely - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xffuHHjO_Us

What blame are you accepting? My suspicion is that you don’t know. You can guess, you can see hurt and destruction around you, but I’m almost positive you’ll be so far off the mark your blind attempts to make yourself accountable will be irrelevant. You’d like me or OM W to fill in that gaps for you. What’s an apology? It’s an invitation to allow you to abandon the guilt and shame that’s become burdensome for you. OM, Enabler W and OM W, I’ve forgiven you all many many many many times over, every day in fact, I’ve forgiven you for things you may not have even have done. The Christmas present I made you all in 2016, that wasn’t an attempt to butter you up or show a hand of friendship, that was an utterly selfish act by me to say, I forgive you, I’m not carrying around my anger for you all any longer…. Did it last? No, of course it didn’t, and I’ve had to do it time and time and time again.

There seems to be a reoccurring theme of extraordinariness running through your personal narrative OM. Your extraordinary relationship with EnablerW that cannot be explained by earthy rationale, our children which have an extraordinary if not remarkable friendship, this situation which is unique! Have you considered that this situation, and our children’s friendship actually isn’t that extraordinary, in fact it’s pretty ordinary, actually common. In a book I read not so long ago, the writer believed that a third of his congregation were, or had been, impacted by infidelity. Do you think that all of these incidents he talks of occur in the belief that they are not all individually special, all unique….. all permissible because of their differentness, maybe that they are sanctified? Specialness is a way to protect ourselves from guilt and shame is it not? “I’m not acting immorally because my situation is unique”, it’s a convenient lie we tell ourselves.

My primary focus is my family, and I suggest this should be your only focus at this time. As much as I care for OM D11, OM D9 and OM W, they are not my concern, nor is their relationship with D11, D9 and D6. This is appropriate. Enmeshment and parentification of children is dysfunctional; however making sacrifices, being available (physically, emotionally and intellectually), spending time and sharing experiences with our children, providing a container for our children to grow is not dysfunctional, it’s what is expected of parents. I do not think that greater synergies between our families is appropriate at this time.

To touch on one of your discussion points ‘A Non-cohabitation Guarantee’, I’m not sure what relevance this has to me although maybe it is not directed at me. EnablerW is pursuing a divorce, she will have her own home and she will be free to make her own choices about what she does in her own home. That is not something I have any moral or legal right to influence, nor would I wish to. She has been free to leave for the entirety of our relationship. It is  appropriate however for me to dictate that I do not wish you to come to our home as much as it is appropriate for EnablerW to express the same for any of my associates she might reasonably feel it is inappropriate. That is not unreasonable.

What do you want OM? What are you trying to achieve? In simple words, what is you ‘end zone’?

Enabler

[Skip]

I wouldn't send any part of that letter - it will only deepen the divide with your wife and elevate the conflict level.

I do see that Skip, but I am not at war with him

You are at war with your wife and with him. His is trying to advance his relationship with your wife and you are trying to impede it.

The situation is awful. I have never experienced anything like what you are going through but I can easily imagine the outrage you must feel. He and your wife are stepping on your ego, your values, your sense of well being - and they have brutally betrayed you. I'm sure horrible thoughts of revenge have pulse your veins - and then you had to betray your own inner feelings because you are not that kind of man.

And now the "devil" want to do a deal with you.

And you are faced with choosing your future and doing the best by your kids (which will require huge change)...

or resentment and conflict escalation - totally and unequivocally deserved..

What do you want OM? What are you trying to achieve? In simple words, what is you ‘end zone’?

Isn't the real question, betrayal wound aside, what do I Enabler (want?) Break out of the co-dependent thinking model - it's not about dissecting what he wants, it's about what you want and listening to what he is willing to trade to give it to you.

This is that last diplomacy discussion before two warring factions start unleashing the bombs. He is likely to be willing to trade more than your wife...

[sweetheart]

Your right your response is way too long and verbose and for me completely unnecessary.

Skip has outlined the key content of what the other man wants and why he wants it. What is interesting for me is that the OM has been able to highlight some of the concerns expressed here around the children and this long protracted process that you are all enmeshed in.

To keep it succinct, what would be the problem for you with meeting to discuss a way forward that prioritises the children’s well-being, and makes easier the way through this going forward?

[Enabler]

I have to admit that I didn’t consider his email to be an overt request to accept my W and him progressing their relationship until Skip pointed it out. I took this as him struggling with his own guilt. His true motivations seem much more covert than that. Eg I took not cohabitating to mean they wouldn’t be together in a relationship, yet realistically it means they won’t live together unmarried...

This puts a different perspective on things, and skip, you’re right, I am all the above on this realisation.

[GaGrl]

No, don't send that reply.

Yes, OM is trying to move the divorce along.

Maybe I've missed something along the way...has your wife ever admitted that she is in an adulterous relationship with OM? Has OM -- to either his wife or you?  I don't remember this ever having happened.

If no admission has been made, it all sounds as if OM is trying to legitimize the affair, somehow trying to ascend the hypocrisy of Church-affiliated people having extramarital affairs. It's not "special." It is what it is.

 Here's my question -- how much of OM's actions are being instigated by your wife? If Wife can't find it in herself to move the divorce forward, talk to the children, etc. -- is she looking to OM to handle the logistics of two divorces? It sure takes her off the hook.

[Enabler]

See here’s the weird thing. W has never admitted to an adulterous affair to me and I have not heard it being admitted via others, in fact when I have accused her in the past in public other people have stepped in to deny it. W is pushing forward divorce process albeit recent and not with enormous conviction.

BUT... as far as I know as of Sep 25th, OM has not even started the divorce process yet (according to OM W)... so him pushing the relationship now would be something he couldn’t even deliver on. It’s not like he’s being proactive.

Agree re religious hypocrisy

[Cat Familiar]

I read that gobbledygook as something entirely different than y'all. It's like something my exH could have written, seeking to justify having an adulterous relationship, but promising not to cohabit.

[Enabler]

I just had this conversation with my W:

Enabler - could I talk quickly (she’s heading out the door to meet her friends), what was OM’s email about? I didn’t get it. One way to read it would be him wanting to sit down to formalise how we move forward as you two formalise your relationship...

EnablerW - I haven’t had a chance to read it, I’ve had other things on my mind if you haven’t noticed (quit aggressive).

Enabler - it seems pretty important to me as it suggests that you’ve had a relationship for some time.

EnablerW - look I really don’t know, I read like the first paragraph of it, if you want to know what he meant you’ll have to ask him as it’s his email.

Enabler - I just want some clarity

EnablerW - well you seem to have more clarity than me since you keep telling me in your emails. I don’t think this is a conversation I think is safe for us to have.

Enabler - Safe?

EnablerW - It’s like...

Long silence

Enabler - Like?...

No response

EnablerW - night night ... walks out the door.

She has no desire to offer clarity or even have the conversation. Guilt and shame = me attacking her... in a violent way.

Enabler

[Cat Familiar]

I can't imagine how a meeting with all four of you would work out. What are the chances you think it will happen? Are you willing to participate?

[Enabler]

His wife has just brushed it off as “not sure it’s worth too much thought, he’s probably just airing what he thinks god is telling him again”. So I think the chances of a meeting are slim.

I replied to the email in an upbeat way asking for clarity about what the email meant, what his aim was. Quit short and sweet.   

[Notwendy]

I'm glad you didn't send that long verbal response back. I could hardly make sense of either his message or yours- yes, I can read but they were long and roundabout, rather than a direct message "hey, I've been having a relationship with your wife, can we meet?", and your response " you dishonest slime,  what do you want?"

I thought OM and his wife were living apart?

I can't imagine how a 4 way meeting would go, with all this emotion. I can see from the conversation with your wife that she doesn't feel she can discuss it with you. By "safe" she doesn't mean you would hurt her necessarily. Safe could mean that the situation is so emotionally volatile that it would be too hard to discuss rationally.

My own take with this, is, -- and this is just me-. this person is having some sort of relationship with your wife and wants to meet. I think ignoring this isn't working- you all know about each other. I think this is what the letter alluded to, but nobody is dealing with it directly. His proposal for a chance of peace, if there is any, is to stop pretending and be honest about it.

But I don't think 4  people all at once, dealing with this emotional issue is the best first meeting (IMHO). I would meet him one on one- in a safe and public place, like a coffee shop. Bite my tongue, stay calm, and basically listen, hear him out- see what it is that he wants.

You have mainly experienced this through your wife. Maybe it's time to cut the middle man out. You don't have to like him, or even hang out with him on a regular basis. This is a coffee shop meeting and the first thing to do is listen.

If it does turn out that he becomes step parent to your kids, then you have to be able to communicate with him civilly, so this may be his first step to achieve that.

[Skip]

"hey, I've been having a relationship with your wife, can we meet?", and your response " you dishonest slime,  what do you want?"

Good summary.

this person is having some sort of relationship with your wife and wants to meet. I think ignoring this isn't working- you all know about each other. I think this is what the letter alluded to, but nobody is dealing with it directly. His proposal for a chance of peace, if there is any, is to stop pretending and be honest about it.

Also, a good summary.

But I don't think 4  people all at once, dealing with this emotional issue is the best first meeting (IMHO).

This is a very practical point - this is not 4 people wanting to find peace right now - there are mountains of resentment and poor communication within the couples.

There are lots of ways to work around this... like hiring a therapists who's assignment is to bring everyone around to acceptance and a reasonable transition. He may want to meet with all 4 individuals separately to size up the landscape.

There is the practical part of this which can be solved - this is not the first time this type of thing has happened.

The emotional part is the most difficult. OM is exhilarated. OM wife is hardened. Enabler is grieving. And Enabler W sounds tentative, fearful. I might not have these roles right at all - my point is simply that the emotions are vastly different and will need to be harmonized to make this work.

Enabler, this is like swallowing a rock. It is going to really test your commitment to children first.

[Enabler]

I simply asked him to clarify why he was saying last night:

OK thanks.  OM W thought there might have been an ulterior motive.  There isn’t.  Something made me write it.  Like it’s meant to give us all the chance to think of things from a different perspective.  I know it’s a bit weird Enabler, I can’t explain it any better than that.

I guess when I read it back the things that shout out to me are:
the fallacies of wrong assumptions that have been made will colour our ability to move forward in truth; they need to be corrected so everyone can make decisions without being hidebound by fear of the unknown
some of us are unhealthily exhausted and would benefit from genuine empathy and understanding
a purposeful life that any of us could never have dreamed of might be revealed by looking from a different viewpoint we’d never before considered
helping each other is better than fighting
and most importantly all our children should never grow up unsure of who they can trust or who they’re allowed to interact with.
I think the idea of a meeting was a bit hopeful and the agenda itself shows me to be right up my own arse if I’m honest, really don’t know where that came from.  Or indeed any of it really, I’ve only ever preached twice in my life, once round a swimming pool in Portugal and now this.  Both seem to have been delivered to me to pass a message on, one of hope if we want to grab it. Best ignore it I’d suggest though, if it all comes over as too confusing, I just didn’t want to let the opportunity pass in case it resonated.

[Skip]

I simply asked him to clarify why he was saying last night:

Can you share the words...

[Enabler]

OM,

I’m sorry you find yourself in a dark place on the edge of sanity. I’m not there anymore but empathise from experience what it’s like.

I'm not sure I like being predictable but I did read your mail multiple times, however, I still don’t actually understand what you were trying to get across. I asked EnablerW but she said she hadn’t read it so couldn’t enlighten me.

Would you be able to strip it down and be simple and clear about what you want, why and what your end zone is, please.

There isn't a lot of clarity at the moment so the clearer we can all be the less likely there will be any misunderstandings.

Regards

Enabler

[Enabler]

My first thoughts on response in yellow

•   the fallacies of wrong assumptions that have been made will colour our ability to move forward in truth; they need to be corrected so everyone can make decisions without being hidebound by fear of the unknown – I’m still not clear what you mean by this OM. If you believe there is something specific, please be specific and clear. It strikes me that we are LOONG past the point where anyone needs to be vague or not providing clarity. What wrong assumptions have there been made and need correcting? Who is afraid of moving forward into the unknown?
•   some of us are unhealthily exhausted and would benefit from genuine empathy and understanding – Again, please be specific. As much as I have empathy for each and every one of you…. And believe me I do, more than you might even imagine…. we are all adults, and as such made choices, and we are responsible for the outcomes of those choices. Would you care to be more specific with how we all need to have more empathy and understanding?
•   a purposeful life that any of us could never have dreamed of might be revealed by looking from a different viewpoint we’d never before considered – Do you have a vision for what this looks like OM? I think you do. What’s the viewpoint you believe we’re missing here?
•   helping each other is better than fighting – I’m not fighting. Could you detail out the conflict as you see it? 
•   and most importantly all our children should never grow up unsure of who they can trust or who they’re allowed to interact with. – Is this directed at the rules I have dictated with regards to the Enabler children interacting with you (this has nothing to do with OM Children)? I do not believe you to be trustworthy, I do not wish my children to trust you. I do not wish our children to be influenced in any way shape or form by you and I will do everything within my reasonable control to ensure that they are not influenced or interact with you on my watch. Can you empathise why I might think this way about you?

[Skip]

Enabler, you hate this guy for what has happened. Understandable.

He opened the door for everyone to be adult and try to deal with the elephant in the room. It was ballsy. It was also brave.  A bit naive.

You sent him a passive resistant note ("I am not at all interested), tangled with your wife over it it, and commiserated with his wife. He got your message loud and clear from all 3 corners.

You shut it down.

His message says, "are you sure".

I do not wish my children to trust you. I do not wish our children to be influenced in any way shape or form by you and I will do everything within my reasonable control to ensure that they are not influenced or interact with you on my watch.

And this says absolutely.

You might be able to work through the kids and with his wife to blow up the affair. You have every right to fight it.

[Enabler]

I have not sent that yet.

I have not sent him passive resistance, I have asked him for clarity, there is a difference.

If I had to guess, this chain of emails is about my stance on my children interacting with his children and dictating that I do not want my children interacting with him. I see nothing at all unreasonable about my stance on this. Had this man just banged Mrs Enabler that would be one thing, however, that's not the case at all. He has encouraged and endorsed deceit (evidenced) on every level. He has encouraged and endorsed very very very twisted thinking (evidenced). He has encouraged and endorsed complete biblical/ethical nonsense (evidenced). He has encouraged and endorsed a sense of fear in my wife of me (evidenced). He has encouraged and endorsed a perception that I am a child abuser (evidenced)... I could go on. This might be a step too far but it sent shivers up my spine when I watched the film "Abducted in plain sight" on Netflix... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abducted_in_Plain_Sight even the correspondence between him and my wife had parallels.

What person in their right mind would want their children to interact with this wicked individual?

I don't hate him. I think he's a foolish narcissist. Also, he just took advantage of a natural loophole in my wife's system and took advantage of a void I had left by my own behaviours... morally reprehensible... yes... worth my emotional effort to actively hate him... pfffff no.

[Notwendy]

I do not believe you to be trustworthy, I do not wish my children to trust you. I do not wish our children to be influenced in any way shape or form by you and I will do everything within my reasonable control to ensure that they are not influenced or interact with you on my watch. Can you empathise why I might think this way about you?


Did you send this to him or is this your thoughts on paper?

I agree with Skip- this shuts him down.

Here is my take- he has a circular style of writing. These e mails sound similar to the ones you found he sent to your wife. It's hard to decipher " I want us to live a purposeful life" Well what does that mean? I have no idea. I could see these emails going back and forth with each of you explaining your position and neither of you knowing what the other one means. Also know that any e mail can be used in court. Yes, you dislike him and have reason to, but e mails in the heat of emotion are probably not a good idea.

For me, personally, I would want to meet face to face. I know it is difficult, but I'd want to hear what he has to say. For this to be productive though, if you did it, you would need to remain composed and let him speak and not say a lot, no JADE.

One thing I do see is that he wants to cut through the misinformation. I imagine your wife has told him things about you. If you are concerned about people thinking you are abusive, staying calm in his presence and not acting on your anger would not be consistent with that. Hearing from him- what is it that he wants- would clarify your assumptions as well. Your wife isn't communicating all of the situation to you. This would give you a chance to learn more.

I suppose the guy thing is to meet for a beer, but for me, I would not want alcohol involved. Coffee is safer. It should be a public place as it is less likely for behaviors to get out of hand.

As Skip said, this is like swallowing a rock, but it also could be informative. I know you don't want your children hanging around him, but if he persists in a relationship with your wife, he likely will be in contact with them. It would be better for all involved if you were on speaking terms.

I would refrain from unrealistic statements like " you won't be in contact with my kids" and focus on what is realistically possible. The first step is to hear him out and I don't think these indirect and flowery e mails are going to get to that. Since they can be used as evidence, I don't think he's going to be that direct in them.

[Enabler]

I agree that it could be an opportunity, but then at the same time it could be an opportunity for him to feed his own ego and get something from me, something I am quite keen to starve him of.

I agree I shut him down with that statement, what about this:

•   and most importantly all our children should never grow up unsure of who they can trust or who they’re allowed to interact with.  - Do you think I should trust you?

Enabler

[Notwendy]

I agree that it could be an opportunity, but then at the same time it could be an opportunity for him to feed his own ego and get something from me, something I am quite keen to starve him of.

This is - IMHO- a heart of the problem. It's co-dependent thinking, even though you don't agree with the term. But it shift the decision from - how will this benefit me? to It might benefit me, but it also might benefit him and I don't want to do that.

But benefit to him is all speculation. You don't know if it will feed his ego or not. So you won't agree to something that might bring out clarity on the basis that it might benefit him- the action is on your desire to not benefit him, not on your desire to do something that might benefit you.

It's a focus on the other person --- the desire to somehow act on the other person's feelings that makes this co-dependent. But it's speculation. I don't think he needs you to feed his ego, he has other sources and if you don't do it, he isn't going to starve.

You can certainly stand on your laurels, but this may likely have more of an effect on you than him. Would I trust him with the children? What control would you have if he and your wife have a long term relationship. Maybe he's a narcissist, but if he hasn't a criminal record, it's likely your feelings won't lead to orders that he doesn't go near your kids, especially if your wife has most of the custody.

If you met up with him, it wouldn't be with the kids. Just the two of you. And your position is to listen and not react or JADE. Just hear him out.

IMHO, any further e mails will be circular JADE on both your parts and not lead to anything. And they can appear in court. I don't see a value in them. He already knows how you probably feel and without knowing what he does want, it's all speculation. He might not have any interest in your kids.

[Notwendy]

IMHO, this is a possible reply

OM, I don't think e mail is the best way to communicate over this topic. I also think having 4 people meet together would not be the best first time for us to speak. Would you be willing to meet with me at Starbucks ( or other local coffee place )so the two of us could discuss this?

Enabler. 

Then keep this rule: NO TRIANGLE. The two of you do not discuss your wife, except for the semantics of the conversation. This is not a Karpman triangle. This needs to be to hear his take on what is going on, what does he want? Keep any responses focused on YOU - not your wife. If you don't know something - say " I wasn't aware of this" not " she doesn't tell me anything"


Then if you meet, you start with the opening " I would appreciate you telling me the intent of your email and clarifying the situation.

[Enabler]

I have had one of his chats before Mar2018 and they are typically one way with him telling me a lot about me. I lost it last time. He then followed the argument up with an 8 page PDF'ed email telling me how much of an evil person I was and how he was trying to help me if I'd only just accept his learned view of me.

He wants to share his view, he thinks it's important and he thinks we all need to know so that we can be happy. As one of my colleagues said "does this creep think he's God?" Well actually I think he does think he's omnipotent or gods messenger.

Email is a safe way for me to consider my responses and create space and time to consider and become more emotionally centred. I don't know his agenda, he does, I'm unlikely to know his agenda until I've stumbled over it.

If my W decides she wants to be with him then i will have no choice in whether or not he interacts with them, I accept that.  

[Notwendy]

OK so you don't want to meet.

What do you want to know by e mailing him? This is crucial. If you want to explain yourself (JADE) this is going to turn into a circular argument and you are likely to get another 8 page pdf on this. IMHO, the best way to reply is to leave out the kids, make this between the two of you. Don't think about what you want him to hear or any effect on him. That is not a productive conversation. Yes, he may think he's a god, or be the narcissist of the century but you know the results of JADE with this kind of personality.

So to OM: thank you for your reply. ( I know that isn't what you want to say- but if he's going to have a long term relationship with your wife- and it appears this is long term- your goal is to be civil. If you aren't an abusive person, don't act like it).

I am not clear on the purpose of your email. I know that you wish for the 4 of us to meet, but I am not sure of what is going on or what your intentions are as far as "wife" and children are. I would appreciate it if you would clarify this. Thank you. E

I know you are angry at him and want nothing to do with him. However, if he's in a relationship with your wife- he will also be in contact with your children and so another idea is to practice being civil and direct, not JADE. If behaving in a civil manner is a goal, then this is the focus.

[I Am Redeemed]

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