The "other man" wants to meet - pt 2

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

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Notwendy,

I did your suggested email last night and he responded saying

I think the idea of a meeting was a bit hopeful and the agenda itself shows me to be right up my own arse if I’m honest, really don’t know where that came from.  ... Best ignore it I’d suggest though, if it all comes over as too confusing, I just didn’t want to let the opportunity pass in case it resonated.

I would like to hear what he has to say. If nothing else it contributes to my sense of reality. It's all information.

[Enabler]

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Notwendy,

I did your suggested email last night and he responded saying

I think the idea of a meeting was a bit hopeful and the agenda itself shows me to be right up my own arse if I’m honest, really don’t know where that came from.  ... Best ignore it I’d suggest though, if it all comes over as too confusing, I just didn’t want to let the opportunity pass in case it resonated.

I would like to hear what he has to say. If nothing else it contributes to my sense of reality. It's all information.

[Notwendy]

Ok well then a brief, civil reply is better (IMHO) then to go on about not trusting him or anything else. That may generate another flowery e mail and a circular argument that goes nowhere. The reality is probably that neither of you 4 can meet in a way that would be productive at this point. It looks like he has accepted this. It was an idea and it doesn't seem to be doable.

So, even though you are angry - a reply that you understand this will de escalate the situation.

OM, thank you for clarifying this.  E.

That's it. no JADE, end of discussion. It's disengages, doesn't escalate .

[Skip]

I would like to hear what he has to say. If nothing else it contributes to my sense of reality. It's all information.

It's a focus on the other person...

And not a focus on a realistic objective for yourself and kids... coming back around to this.

As best I can understand your 10 year family plan from what you have written in the last two weeks is that the "realistic objective for yourself and your kids" is:

to delay the end of cohabitation with your wife as long as possible to have "kid time"  (accept a day-to-day household environment that is increasingly contemptuous) , move on to a court ordered "Disney Dad" visitation schedule* (18-24 months), and be a better dad (than your wife is a mom) and hope the kids chose to spend more time with you when they are of age to chose.

It sounds like this is also part of that plan. "I do not wish my children to trust you. I do not wish our children to be influenced in any way shape or form by you and I will do everything within my reasonable control to ensure that they are not influenced or interact with you on my watch. " You want to foul any any possible relationship with the OM.

And there is this Can you empathize why I might think this way about you? Your reoccurring use FOG to get the other man and your wife to see themselves to be of bad character (for having an affair) and to voice that to you, and your children.

There was a lot of talk to get you to rethink this plan, because its based on having everyone chose one person over another. Children, inherently, don't want to do this, but once this dynamic kicks in, everyone will compete by seeding negative biases against each other. I digress.  

So is my paraphrase/synopsis of your plan accurate?  If not, please tweak.

Given this plan (original or tweaked version) - what would you want from "Other Man" (to advance your objectives) if you two are able to communicate constructively?

Skip

* I was a Disney mom's boyfriend and I would compare it to grand parenting - the kids loved me - I never had to a bad day with them. A big part of that, however, was that I won over bio-dad.

[formflier]

I agree the letter was balsy.  If he wants to clear the air I would give him the opportunity to do so with the assistance of the church.

Otherwise, I wouldn't have anything else to do with it.

There are several angles here.  One of the may that stinks to high heaven is that your wife is a "minister" and they are trying to involve God in this...without any kind of oversight.

Why not reply to him and add your wife's senior pastor(s) to the email and set up a joint meeting?

I don't believe anything good can come from a "private" meeting with just the 4 of you.

Best,

FF

[Ltahoe]

’m not good with copying and pasting excerpts via phone so bear  with me  I also realize I’m a sporadic member of this forum have my reasons. Nothing personal, it’s more about me than any member here.

I tend to agree with Cat and some other members. This guy is trying to justify himself and play the nice guy for self righteous or self serving reasons. Something doesn’t add up.  I’m not as familiar as daily members with your situation. But I do remember stopping in a year and a half ago and you were dealing with this stuff, then popping back in here and there. But I truly feel bad for your situation but I am also asking myself when is enough? Idk if your wife still lives with you and leaves for the OM is she living alone? Bouncing around?

I’m going to give my two sense, won’t be how other members respond. At this point your wife is already sleeping with someone else and has been for a long time. It’s ridiculous both her and OM are pigs/dogs. They’ve already shown a level of untrustworthiness I wouldn’t believe anything this man says I personally wouldn’t even respond to this guy.  Do know this and it’s definitely a gamble , and I’m not sure what is keeping you connected to your wife(are you still intimate with her, see hope for a future, protecting other things finances, parental relationships etc.) but you’re still being the bad guy to her so you’re saving this other man from being bad. Think about the triangle, victim, persecutor, rescuer. With you still being there you’re always going to be the persecutor and this guy the rescuer. As long as you’re still in the picture you’re actually probably saving this OM. I have a feeling this other guy feeds off Chaos like your wife. I would figure out how not to be the negative part of this triangle which unfortunately means cutting off your wife if she doesn’t stop immediately, which unfortunately seems unlikely.

Embarrassingly speaking from experience here I have had two relationships where the woman cheated on me. First one was before I had a kid that relationship was easy to dispose of per se. Not ever easy to let go of love but walking away posed no threat to parental relationships, finances or whatsoever. Second one I had a child with, this was a lot harder after my ex had started sleeping with someone else I grossly allowed myself not to disconnect from this woman and was involved in love triangles. Part of me knew she still loved me, that she didn’t really love this guy and he wasn’t good for her. So for some reason I stayed involved with her for months. Idk my true thinking it’s a confusing time I get that you’re going through it also.

But in the end I had to accept reality this woman had already been sleeping with someone else. Cutting strings didn’t mean anything else that wasn’t already happening was going to happen. Perhaps she finds a new lover to be in a love triangle with etc. but again well she was already sleeping with someone else I couldn’t do anything to avoid that. So me cutting her off meant I wouldn’t sleep with her and she’d sleep with someone else to get that need fulfilled. Yeah, already happening anyways. Me staying in the picture just allowed OM to be her rescuer. As long as I was in play for her I could also be blamed for her problems and was just creating a guy that tried harder and harder to be the hero(perhaps part of this letter is the guy trying to be a hero) After I cut her off a strange thing happened. I was no longer the source of her Chaos, the OM has to be the source of both good and bad and their relationship collapsed nearly immediately. In both cases the woman after I cut them off both tried running back to me multiple times. So if you can accept what happened and forgive, and your end goal is to get your wife back it may be more possible by being the one to discard her first whether it’s a temporary separation or the start of the divorce process would be up to you. She’s given you every reason to do so. I just don’t think you can get what you want by passively hanging out, it’s not working.

Again think about the drama triangle, what role are each of you playing in that triangle.  You may be trying to save yourself but are you really saving the OM?

I say don’t give this guy or your wife anything to feed off of by responding or playing any of their games. Going deeper I almost feel this guy is trying to tell you at how nice things will be if you play by his rules and make things stress free for who? Him and tour wife? I’m curious about this guy already talking about how well enmeshment is going with the two families. Something about what he is saying tells me he’s got some issues. He’s an interloper and has no right to dictate anything.

[Enabler]

10 day... 1yr... 10yr  Plan

to delay the end of cohabitation with your wife as long as possible to have "kid time"   To honour my marital oath and promise to my children, until such time that my Wife chooses to take active steps to cease the possibility of that being viable. This could be her leaving with the children, leaving on her own or progressing the divorce process requiring a sale of the family home (accept a day-to-day household environment that is increasingly contemptuous Behave in an adult manner, being there for the children, being upbeat and a good role model, being emotionally separate from my W... regardless of my wife's contemptuous behaviour. Live well, enjoy life) , if my wife chooses to finalise the divorce move on to a court ordered "Disney Dad" visitation schedule* (18-24 months) mutually agreed backstop minimum parenting schedule with scope to expand contact where possible, but with the backstop of Disney  Dad, and be a better dad (than your wife is a mom) and hope the kids chose to spend more time with you when they are of age to chose leave the option open to my children if they choose to live with me at a later date.

It sounds like this is also part of that plan. "I do not wish my children to trust you. I do not wish our children to be influenced in any way shape or form by you and I will do everything within my reasonable control to ensure that they are not influenced or interact with you on my watch. " You want to foul any any possible relationship with the OM. This is my current objective given I have part responsibility to guide my children's influences away from unhealthy people. I accept I will not be in a position to determine those influences post divorce and where my wife is responsible for the children. That will be her responsibility and her choice.

And there is this "Can you empathize why I might think this way about you?" Your reoccurring use FOG questions and statement of fact, to get the other man and your wife to see themselves to be of bad character (for having an affair) and to voice that to you, and your children that their actions have caused people to not trust them, to not want them to have influence on others because untrustworthy, manipulative people are typically not vested in the benefit of them (the children or me) rather than being inherently vested in their own selfish ends.

[Skip]

Given this plan (original or tweaked version) - what would you want from "Other Man" (to advance your objectives) if you two are able to communicate constructively?

And...

Given this plan (original or tweaked version) - what would you want from "Other Man" (to advance your objectives) if you two are able to communicate constructively?

[Enabler]

I agree the letter was balsy.  If he wants to clear the air I would give him the opportunity to do so with the assistance of the church.

...

There are several angles here.  One of the may that stinks to high heaven is that your wife is a "minister" and they are trying to involve God in this...without any kind of oversight.

Why not reply to him and add your wife's senior pastor(s) to the email and set up a joint meeting?

I suggested the idea of involving the church in any meeting to my sister last night. She was vehemently against attending any meeting since she believes I will just be subjected to more deceit.

My guess is that this email is attempting to rescue 3 people:

- the fallacies of wrong assumptions that have been made will colour our ability to move forward in truth; they need to be corrected so everyone can make decisions without being hidebound by fear of the unknown - He believes that he has unfairly been blamed for having an affair with my W

- some of us are unhealthily exhausted and would benefit from genuine empathy and understanding – this is rescuing my W who is struggling to deal with D work, School work, stress, work work and looking after the kids. In essence she and others have piled on responsibility in an attempt to rescue her e.g. give her a job and develop that job (ongoing training), get her to become a pastoral assistant (ongoing training), looking after the 3 kids. I wasn't involved in any of these decisions (apart from the kids) AT ALL. These are all her choices. I am doing a large amount of the domestic tasks and childcare to support her with the above responsibilities... she will naturally quim about how her life is soo tough and she doesn't have any time, yet goes to the pub and goes to dinner parties all the time. He is suggesting I should step up and take some of the burden probably because he thinks I am doing nothing to help... because that's the lies she's told him.

- and most importantly all our children should never grow up unsure of who they can trust or who they’re allowed to interact with. - he has the kids every other weekend. He likely doesn't interact with their social network of kids therefore has to rely on the small social network he does know (my kids). I suspect that his daughter asked to have my daughter over and he had to say no, because I have stipulated that my kids are not to go to his. I doubt he wanted to discuss why my daughter wasn't allowed round his. I'd imagine that the weekends with Dad are a bit monotonous and maybe they have exhausted all the possible things to do in his flat... and he finds the lack of ability to 'be free' restrictive. He'd like to invite D9 and D11 over to entertain his daughters but I won't let him.

Enabler

[Enabler]

And...

Given this plan (original or tweaked version) - what would you want from "Other Man" (to advance your objectives) if you two are able to communicate constructively?

The factual truth...

I don't believe anything else is attainable

[Skip]

As you challenged the OM, can you be specific on what that is and how that fits your plan/needs to move forward?

What do you want?

[Enabler]

It doesn't... you know that hence you're asking.

I'll admit that I believe they share each others delusion. Their delusion is propped up by pillars of deceit. Lies they have told others, lies they have told each other and lies they now tell themselves. I would like to test some of those lies...

Testing the lies now would be less disruptive than testing them post divorce where I see the pillars coming tumbling down. Especially testing some of the biblical fantasies they share.

[Skip]

It doesn't... you know that hence you're asking.

That's not my thought and most importantly, my thoughts are not central here. Step away from the focus on everyone else's thought pattern. Turn it on you.

What constructive thing do want from this guy in regards to your children's future? Get in touch with that. WWJD. Say it here.  

[Enabler]

To keep his weird views away from my children. To never write them a stupid letter like he's written to me. To keep his ethereal thoughts to himself. To not manipulate them...

Not constructive...

I actually can't think of a single thing I want from him. I've spent a long time making him irrelevant to me 

[Skip]

Good...

Not constructive...

Bingo. Not constructive.

Try again. Constructive this time. It's there for sure.

[Enabler]

To mediate between me and my W. To be the voice of reason with my W. To help me maintain access even when it's inconvenient to "them"

[Enabler]

To not cause conflict around my children when their relationship fails / gets conflictual

[Skip]

OK, this is good. This is headed toward the path to be on.

To mediate between me and my W. (a little co-D)
To be the voice of reason with my W.  (a little co-D)
   To help me maintain access even when it's inconvenient to "them" (solid)
   To not cause conflict around my children when their relationship fails / gets conflictual  (solid)

There's lots more, right? Get it down.

[formflier]

I agree, this is a good thought path to go down.  There are benefits to contact. 

I can't imagine benefits without some kind of third party involved.  Since many of the delusions are "biblical", and one of the people involved is a pastor/teacher put forth by the church, that's where the church idea comes from

I can't imagine you guys having a meeting of any kind without deceit.  I think there will be less deceit with a third party involved.

Saying this because I don't understand the rational from your sister of not involving the church.  Perhaps she is against meeting under any circumstances, then it may make sense.

Circle back to Skip's question/example.  Set aside as many emotions as possible (I can imagine this is hard..I'm sure it is)

I need to access the TJ of your personality.  I'm hoping that part will agree that information (even tainted information regarding your children) is important and likely helpful.

Is it more import to only have palatable sources of information or is it more important to "get more data" (information)?

Uggg...

I see the answer and it hurts me to acknowledge it...and I'm not directly involved. 

Please be extra kind to yourself.

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

To discipline my children
To defend my children
To care for my children when they are hurt Ill or upset
To encourage my children to help themselves to be practically responsible
To not squander assets which are meant for the safety and security of my children
To model a responsible adult
To model a present adult who sticks around when times get tough
To not spend every night socialising at the pub
To not be the husband he’s been to his current wife

[Enabler]

I like all data... all data contributes to truth. The truth might be that my w has told him that I beat her for 23 years and I sexually abused the kids, that doesn’t mean it happened but certainly influences why he has behaved the way he has.

[Cat Familiar]

Reading that convoluted message from him makes me think he’s one of those guys with an exceptionally high opinion of himself. He pontificates in inexact banalities, thinking that he’s being high minded and impressive, when actually his audience is wondering what on earth he’s talking about.

If questioned and asked to be explicit, I’d bet that he wouldn’t be able to do so and would likely dismiss the questioner as not being intelligent enough to understand.

Perhaps I’m misjudging him. On the other hand, I’ve seen this pattern many times.

[Enabler]

Bang on correct

[FaithHopeLove]

Hi Enabler
I haven't spoken to you about this before but I am aware of the very painful situation you are in and I am very sorry for what you are going through. Unfaithfulness in a marriage is really horrible for the spouse and ultimately devastating for any children who are involved. That said I think that what is best for your children and for you needs to be your focus. Your decision about whether or not you meet with OM needs to be based solely on whether it could benefit you or your children. Nothing else matters. Regardless of how you feel about OM there is a very real possibility that he will one day be your children's stepfather. For that reason alone it may be wise to put your understandable anger aside for a moment and see what kind of agreement you and he could come up with that might minimize some of your children's pain. I think involving all four of you would be too much. I would also think twice about involving your wife's church in this. It would be too messy and likely be of little benefit to you or your kids. I would also steer clear of lengthy emails. It is a horrible medium for communicating in emotionally charged situations and can backfire if this becomes a court case. The most important thing at this point is focusing on your well being and that of your children. Nothing else matters. I wish you well. I pray for you and your children.
Hugs
Faith

[GaGrl]

Reading that convoluted message from him makes me think he’s one of those guys with an exceptionally high opinion of himself. He pontificates in inexact banalities, thinking that he’s being high minded and impressive, when actually his audience is wondering what on earth he’s talking about.

If questioned and asked to be explicit, I’d bet that he wouldn’t be able to do so and would likely dismiss the questioner as not being intelligent enough to understand.

Perhaps I’m misjudging him. On the other hand, I’ve seen this pattern many times.

Unfortunately, I worked with far too many of this type in Corporate America and academia. Ugh!

My gut reaction (and I'm an NF) was -- No, I'm not doing a four-day meeting. You take care of your house,can't we'll take care of ours. "

Am I being too reactionary and off-base?

I found it insulting that he touts Truth when the reality is that the best you can say is that this is a long-standing emotional affair (and I don't believe that).

[Longterm]

he’s one of those guys with an exceptionally high opinion of himself.  

I have had experience of this in my own situation. My exes bf (imo) has narcissistic traits and I get the sense that he feels as though he is god when everyone I know that has spoken to him have all said the same words "I dont know what it is about him, hes just weird and creepy". The emails the OM has sent literally made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up and reminded me of long messages my daughter received that make absolutely no sense yet detail how he has "tried" to be a good role model and that everything is my fault, I brainwash etc. His hypocrisy is distasteful at best and it was the first thing I thought when reading your messages.

Imo you are right to fear this mans involvement in your daughters lives and I salute your resilience in what is a truly difficult situation.

There are reasons why your W is attracted to this man but it will most likely crumble once the end goal has been achieved. They will consume one another and unfortunately there will be 3 little girls in the middle of it.

My advice to you is to have as little to do with this man as possible and make the kids needs/wants your top priority when making any and all decisions, whether it hurts or not.

LT.

[Cat Familiar]

Best to know your enemy.

It's likely that he will be somewhat of a stepfather in the future.

No sense giving him any ammunition against you. No reason to let him in on your true feelings about him.

Those of us who've seen this pattern before generally have noticed a sense of insecurity in those individuals who manifest this behavior.

If I were in your shoes, I would meet with him, keeping my cards close to the vest, observing and gathering information.

Root like an oak, bend like the willow, move like a stream.

[Skip]

Is he the enemy or the betrayer of Enabler?

This is a hard one to grasp at times, but it is Enabler's Wife who is the  betrayer. OM (other man) is just along for the ride. He has no beef with Enabler or the kids. He has no long standing resentments. He is not fanning the flames of contempt in Enabler's marriage. That is all between Enabler and his wife.

OM is in love with Enabler' wife and he wants that to be a good thing. Not only is he not fanning the flames of contempt - he is seeking, however inept, however self-centered, to center everyone and bring a peace treaty to a very intense situation (the Enabler family marriage failure). He tried once before. His goal is to build a life with Enablers wife - not to strike Enabler down. If he wasn't seeing Mrs. E., Enabler would have little feelings for this guy. Enablers marriage was crashing before this guy came on the scene.

It's always easier to blame the OM or the OW, because we don't want to think our beloved did this to us...

The best ally to have in these situations is an OM or the ex husband. Treating them with respect and with a constant message and a modicum of empathy, is hugely helpful. I have always made it a point to establish respect relationships with these thirds parties and it has always served me well. They are not my friends, I don't wear my heart on my sleeve, or share secrets, but I ally the fears, establish boundaries, and I am approachable and reliable.

My partners ex-husband is an emotionally difficult guy. I get along with him and he acts in his best behavior when I'm around because he wants to be the better man.  I don't particularly like this guy, he wouldn't be my buddy if it weren't for the families - but it helps to blend the family.

It can be like swallowing a rock, but we do that for the greater good sometimes. I love my partner, so I made this investment. She tried to discourage me, but she is the first to say it has worked wonders. He treats her better. This was not my first experience with this.

Enabler laid out some good priorities:
To discipline my children
To defend my children
To care for my children when they are hurt Ill or upset
To encourage my children to help themselves to be practically responsible
To not squander assets which are meant for the safety and security of my children
To model a responsible adult
To model a present adult who sticks around when times get tough

Getting these values/boundaries in place are good. It's early and they can be effective.

And Enabler can show that his love for his family transcends the failure of his marriage. Connecting with the new BF, staying connected with the inlaws, integrating into the other half of the blended family makes sense.

Swallowing a rock. Being the bigger man and doing it wit humility.

[I Am Redeemed]

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