The "other man" wants to meet - pt 3

[Enabler]

This thread was split from this discussion: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=341295.0

Thank you all for your advice and words of wisdom, it’s clear there’s lots of different views here. I think it would be a good time to at least recap my thoughts on this recent flurry of letters whilst leaving a plan of action to be considered.

- OM sends long rambling email with meeting agenda points with good intention to have discussions before divorce has happened and negotiations start. Before bitterness sets in. He intends to be truthful and ditch his heavy burden of guilt. Arrogant yes, well meaning and genuine probably.

- W reads email on the Sunday morning unaware that he was going to send it. W sees OM at “church” till 2am and goes mental as this is not what she wants. She wants guilt free divorce and “oh we accidentally fell in love afterwards”. She certainly doesn’t want to risk a spiteful divorce with a lot of honesty flying around to get in the way. They hatch a plan to change direction of the emails from “their new beginnings” to “general moments of madness, ignore me, it’s probably nothing, I just had a moment, but definitely not THAT”... W denies everything and it’s all OM being mental... “OM who?”

- I send request for clarification - OM clarifies he is in fact mental and to probably shuts ignore him.

- I press him to be more clear about his emails

- no response yet

This is the best reality I can fit given the bits of information I know and the characters involved.

The problem I perceive working with him is that it is clear that he shares or is at least prepared to align himself to my wife’s delusional thoughts, and in many cases create his own delusions all by himself, which means when I am attempting to negotiate regarding parenting or something I’m now going to be negotiating with 2 deluded people not just one.

He wants to be honest and truthful, I’m going to encourage him to be honest and truthful, that’s no bad thing.

Enabler

[FaithHopeLove]

So how does all of this impact on you and your children? What can you do to maximize your own health and happiness?

[Enabler]

Skip,

OM has MASSIVELY fanned the flames of contempt, whilst at the same time being “friendly” and coming along side with me. He would report back what I said (evidenced), he has fanned her sense of fear by maliciously interpreting things I said to my w, he sent her YouTube videos on NPD when unbeknown you’re me my W was trying to distance herself from him and give it another go with me, he invited her on biker weekends to be “his biker b!tch”, he referred to me as an animal, when me and my W went on holiday with him and his W he suggested they would “find a chink in my armour”, he encouraged he accused me of being a child abuser because I made my daughter sit on a step when she told my wife she hated her. He over embellishes the general sense of me being a danger even going so far as to suggest he had filed a copy of his previous 8 page letter somewhere safe in case something should happen to him..., he has very much fanned the flames of contempt whilst interestingly from what I managed to snoop of their conversations saying “you repeating your marriage is the most important thing to me... but Enabler is a danger to society”... Mate this fella has read the David Korresh book of mind control. That’s one of the reasons “Abducted in plain sight” freaked me out so much. It was as though he was THAT GUY!

[Enabler]

So how does all of this impact on you and your children? What can you do to maximize your own health and happiness?

I genuinely don’t know, I can’t force them to be truthful although it feels like the truth would set everyone free. In essence telling the truth may allow everyone to just move on sensibly. It’s not like everyone doesn’t kinda know the truth anyway.

But then what does the truth do to my W’s cage? What does that do for her mental stability? How will she process the guilt being real? What does that do to her relationship with OM when looked at without the veneer of all the delusional justifications and rationalisation? What does that do to her faith which is frankly the only glue that holds her together? Yes this is all about my W, but it’s kinda impact me and the kids as well. I can add enormous variability to how this plays out.

The truth will come out, it always does. I want it sooner rather than later. If ‘they’ survive it, we all love on in peace. If they don’t, I suspect ‘we’ move on... somehow.

[FaithHopeLove]

I speak as one who married a divorced man and became a stepmother to a 10 year old, now in her late 30s. The children could not care less about whose fault this is. What adult did what to whom is completely irrelevant to them. They just want to know that their parents still love them and that they are going to be OK. While what you are feeling is completely understandable in this situation, when it comes to your children who did what to whom, whose fault this possible divorce is, etc. is of zero importance. What they want is some assurance that their entire world will not fall apart, that nothing is their fault and that their parents will continue to love them. That is why I keep trying to redirect your attention to them. You, your wife and the OM are adults. You will figure this out somehow. But frankly none of your posts talk about your children and they are the most vulnerable people who need to be your first priority with your own well being running a close second. So I ask again, what course of action in light of this email is best for you and your kids?

[Enabler]

Again, I repeat I don’t know and I’m not the one prompting truth telling and this unclear email.

Less than a week ago I was talking to a selection of Ts to discuss me and my W telling the kids and how that should be done.

The best thing for the kids is that OM Is nowhere near them... but I have almost no control over that. Unfortunately telling lies to get a woman in bed isn’t a criminal offence. Neither is becoming some kind of mystic spiritual guru. I can’t even get clarity over what the meeting is for let alone what’s best for the kids.

[Longterm]

The whole situation could explode at any moment, any one of the 4 of you can easily make this happen. You are all on a cliff edge and if one drops off, you are all following.

However you try to play this the end result imo is inevitable. All of your lives are going to be turned upside down and changed forever, there will be hurt, pain and suffering for all involved. I feel as though you are trying to prevent the inevitable and finding it hard to accept (understandably) that the end is near.

I think you are right to be upset, anybody would be, but I feel it is clouding your judgement in regards to the behaviours presented to you. OM didnt make your W behave in this way, hes not helping, granted. You stated your W has also left in the past  but returned to the marriage, who was at fault here? If the reality of their relationship proves too much and you and your W "move on" somehow, what does this look like? Do you think she would change and be the W you crave?

I agree with what others have said in regards to looking ahead and thinking about what E and the girls want moving forward. Your W problems are something that will no longer be your concern. Be there for the kids, they may have a lot of confusion and hurt to work through that will likely intensify once one of you falls off the cliff.

LT.

[Ltahoe]

Do  you think she would change and be the W you crave?


LT.

Read that til it sinks no one is getting that any time soon from your W.

OM has accused you of abuse. I reiterate do not cooperate with him. I feel he’s trying to set up the for sure deal before anyone pulls the trigger. He wants to know his consequences and his guarantees before he acts. Stay away from him. I don’t care if anyone says your a bigger person for being able to communicate with him. Don’t do it, don’t let him chose his consequences before he acts. 

[formflier]

Hey Enabler,

Since you are doing some massive thinking/critical thinking I'll try again to get you to nudge aside one thinking/evaluating habit you seem to have that is not been helpful to you (IMO)

OM and your wife are somewhere in the spectrum of "disordered", yet what they say/think about you seems to be of outsize importance to you.

They are going to think what they think and just because they think and tell people you are horribly abusive/manipulating/controlling...blah blah blah, we all know it's most likely projection and not an "honest" evaluation of "the truth".

I know we've kicked this around before and frankly I don't think it made much impact.

Let me ask you this way.

If you have two options on the table.

Enabler chooses path A and OM and Enabler wife sing the praises of Enabler and perhaps even recant prior "accusations", yet Enabler ends up with less than 50/50 parenting.

or

Enabler gets 50/50 parenting yet still has to deal with OM and wife that from time to time claim Enabler is (fill in the blank).

Said another way.  I think 50/50 parenting is an option you can choose/influence.  I doubt you can influence their "thinking" or "opinion" of you. 

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Trying to be pragmatic about the "church issue".

There will legal paperwork involved in what is likely to come to pass. 

While it would be satisfying to "out" them in the church and that very well might end their relationship (or it could go several other ways..really who knows?)

I would think it is much more valuable for you to have "veto" power over where your kids go to church and are involved in "religious instruction".

A church that has let them flaunt this relationship while allowing your wife to be a minister is not a sure thing that even if you can prove it, that anything would come of it.

I definitely wouldn't want my kids influenced by such a place and veto power (or perhaps reword it "primary decision making").

My guess is both of them would much rather give you that power than submit to the church poking around in their relationship.

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

FF,

Appreciate the wisdom as per usual. Regarding caring what OM and W think re me being abusive, I don’t massively care about the thought, I care how that plays out in action. Eg if my boss unfairly thought I was a rubbish trader, the numbers didn’t confirm his thoughts and others didn’t agree, but let’s say there’s a round of redundancies and he picks me to go because he doesn’t think much of my ability, and let’s say he finds an email from 5 years ago that I used the work dick in to justify that decision. His thoughts matter because they turn into action. If my W and OM went to hell and had those thoughts without being able to influence my existence I wouldn’t give it another thought.

[Enabler]

Do  you think she would change and be the W you crave?

You’re all making assumptions about what I “crave”. I accept she’ll never be the wife I thought she could be, she would be different, and I don’t know what that different would look like. I know that my W is an inherently good person, a good person that does bad things, a lot of bad things, but maybe she does those bad things for complicated motivations that before I discovered BPD I didn’t understand, and contributed to. I really don’t think I can be as black and white about things as you guys are implying.

If the question is “are you willing to continue to invest you time and effort into my W knowing she may never be ‘normal’?” then the answer is Absolutely without any hesitation, and that’s a choice by me. Until we file the decree absolute.

Enabler

[Enabler]

There’s been no response re my request for clarity on the talk. However I thought I’d jot down my thoughts on the talk:

Attend the meeting or not?
- Yes - Receive information, some version of the truth, if discussion about future parenting happens it would be wise to be productive for my own and children’s benefit.
- No - high probability it will just be a show designed by OM to get something he wants be that to rescue W, rescue his kids or rescue himself.

Assume I attend the meeting, what are the consequences of how I handle myself?
- let it all hang out, tell OM he’s a colossal prick - he gets what he wants which is evidence Enabler is abusive. Likely fuels W confidence to get over upcoming D hurdles because she will feel justified.
- say very very very little other than pointing towards future parenting arrangements - assumes I would have received some level of accountability from either OM or W, makes my life and my kids life easier in the future.

Involve the church in the process?
- Yes - would likely burst a lot of religious delusion and prevent them from weaponising faith, may shatter their relationship, may cause W to abandon faith. Adds fuel to the fire, could be seen as FOG even though I don’t think it is. Likely adds to the cage rather than dismantles it.
- No - a greater likelihood  of the meeting happening which is in everyone’s benefit, greater probability of truth being told, I have enough knowledge and understanding of Christianity to cut through the BS.

Net net I think I would like (it would be the wisest choice rather than actually wanting it)  a meeting without involving the church where I sit there, absorb “the truth”, contribute little for now other than commitment to work with OM.

That said I think truthfulness and accountability has been knocked on the head.

Enabler

[FaithHopeLove]

The best thing for the kids is that OM Is nowhere near them... but I have almost no control over that. Unfortunately telling lies to get a woman in bed isn’t a criminal offence. Neither is becoming some kind of mystic spiritual guru. I can’t even get clarity over what the meeting is for let alone what’s best for the kids.

You are right. You have almost no control over whether or not your kids have contact with OM. If this relationship continues he is going to be in their lives. What you do control at least to some extent is the nature of that contact. Putting your anger at OM aside, at least where custody and visitation is concerned, will benefit your children.

Net net I think I would like (it would be the wisest choice rather than actually wanting it)  a meeting without involving the church where I sit there, absorb “the truth”, contribute little for now other than commitment to work with OM

I think that is a very wise choice.

[Enabler]

You would be surprised how little anger I have... weirdly I have a decent amount of pity for the guy. He has NO CLUE and is UTTERLY unprepared as demonstrated by his behaviour in his current marriage to a BPD Queen. He's swapping Queen for Waif.

Enabler

[Skip]

I can’t even get clarity over what the meeting is for let alone what’s best for the kids.

What is best for the kids is not predicated on that email.

Simple question... which would you choose:

1) Letting her cover-up her indiscretion (in exchange for a cooperative co-parenting agreement that works with your schedule) 2) Insisting she "out herself" (and hoping that the shame or the loss of the financial support of the OM will make it impossible for her to leave)

You dabble with #1 but you keep coming back to #2.

Both have a good chance of working.

[Notwendy]

Attend the meeting or not?

I'm with Cat, in the "know your enemy" camp. The meeting isn't to give him an audience or stroke his ego. It's entirely for you. His emails are flowery and roundabout and all can be used as evidence if it had to be. It's hard to know what he's thinking from them, and I don't think he's going to lay it all out in them.

I also don't assume any honesty on his part. Meeting with him isn't about believing what he says, it would be information gathering- hearing what he has to say. What you do about it or think about it can be done later.

 Say very very very little    absolutely. The less, the better. Do not tip your cards. Assume his desire to meet you is the same- to gather information to bolster his agenda whatever it is. So it's the art of "medium chill" - speak when necessary but reveal nothing and don't react emotionally, even when provoked.

If he's self absorbed as you say, then he loves to talk about himself. Something might come out of this for you to hear. Also assume he's a master manipulator and he may push your buttons to try to elicit a reaction. It would be in his favor to have you go off on him and he could claim you threatened him.

Meeting him of course would depend on your ability to remain cool and collected in his presence. But if he is going to have a long term relationship with your wife, then you would need to be able to do this as it would be hard to completely avoid him.

I'm only suggesting a meeting face to face as e mail isn't a good way to communicate with this sort of issue. And in a public place where it is less likely anyone will take this too far. Also there would be witnesses if he falsely accused you. I wouldn't be alone with him at all. Not because he might harm you, but because he could make anything up about what happened.

The whole point of this is to hear what he has to say, not make your points about it. If you are able to do this, then it may be useful to you.

[Notwendy]

On side note- and I don't want to hijack this thread- it's important. We can start a new one on parenting if you want to discuss this further, but kids are a part of this thread.

Having your D sit on the stairs because she said she "hated her mother" is not being abusive. However, I would consider this comment carefully.

Having raised teens, I have heard " I hate you" on occasion.  But they don't hate me. This was a teen being upset because, I said no to something that "the other mothers' let their kids do this. This was driven by hormones and teen moodiness. I chose to ignore it. What I felt teens need is a parent who isn't reactive to their teen outbursts. I don't argue making your D sit on the stairs either, it's just my take on these things.

On the other hand, when I was a pre-teen, teen, I was being manipulated and emotionally abused by my BPD mother and I had some pretty strong feelings about this, that to me were expressed as " I hate my mother". I didn't dare say it to my parents much, but when I did protest, I was told that was a terrible thing to say, you can't hate your mother. But these were my early boundaries that were not reinforced. It's normal to feel hate towards your abuser. What wasn't normal was being told I should love mine.

If what your D said was just a teen age outburst, then I wouldn't give it much thought. However, if this is how she feels, that is something to investigate. If your kids aren't in counseling yet from the family dynamics- I would suggest it. They are smart enough to catch on that something isn't OK. I certainly was aware something was different , and the dynamics were similar to yours. My mother was acting like a teen age girl, and I wasn't allowed to do that. She could scream hateful things and we had to pretend they didn't happen. One thing I wanted to do was allow my teens to be teens - yes - discipline them if necessary but also give them a safe space to be moody emotional teens with me and role model emotional stability, not reactivity.

[Enabler]

No worries on the hijack Notwendy.

This was pre-parenting learning I admit, although I still know that it wasn't child abuse. My D3 was dysregulated and she'd got into a thing of saying "I hate you Mummy", I said to her "D3 it is not okay to tell mummy that you hate her, if you don't stop we will take some time out." of course she says "I hate you mummy". So I walked her up to the top of a run of steps away from the pool and said "We will sit here and be quiet for 5 mins, it's not okay to say 'I hate you' to Mummy or Daddy, when we've sat here quiet for 5 mins you can go back to the pool". She screamed and shouted at me for half an hour, I didn't react other than to ask her to calm down. W comes along picks D3 up, looks at me in the eyes and says "You're cruel" and goes into the villa to cuddle her for half an hour.

I did the same thing the following day when D3 said I hate you to me again, although this time, on advice of OM's W, I moved away and left D3 on the step. She was quiet for 5 mins after a couple ranting. I went back to her, explained again why she was put on the step and how we were all cool again. We had a cuddle and moved on.

I deal with things a little differently now, and like you, I acknowledge what happens when kids are dysregulated and give them some rope to allow it to all hang out. I always address it afterwards though.

Enabler

[Enabler]

So I have this correct, I’m going to detail out the position as I understand it:

- You [the man having an affair with Enabler's wife] have caused an upset which has caused an enormous amount of distress over the last 4 years between us all.   - There has been a lot of prevarication and obfuscation, covering up the real picture and you would like to reveal the truth. - This truth is likely to hurt and be unpalatable - This truth is so unbelievable, so extraordinary and so unique that no one on earth would believe it, in fact it’s supernatural….. amazballs in fact - You are finding it a tough burden knowing that this unpalatable truth will hurt people. - You condemn yourself wholeheartedly, so much so it hurts you inside. - You are willing to accept blame and stand up to be counted for this painful and unpalatable truth. - Because you are sorry, you wish to be free from any recriminations and repercussions in the future and live in peace after we all reveal this truth, but ultimately you would like to be free from the burden of…. Sin. - Because you are sorry, you would like others, myself and OMsW lets say, to offer mutual support to unburden you of that sin and allow you to live in peace so that you can have a secure future. - Because you are sorry, you would like others to tell (y)our children that you are not capable of causing others the enormous amount of distress that you have accepted blame for and are standing up to be counted for, allowing them to grow up with happiness around them rather than have a shaky insecure existence, knowing YOU caused THEM an enormous amount of distress. - You believe that our children whom haven’t caused each other enormous distress, being friends, and play nicely, is a comparable model with which to compare 4 adults 2 of which have caused and continue to cause the other 2 adult extreme amounts of distress despite feeling guilty about their actions and wanting to stand up and be counted. - Because you are sorry, you believe this should be done in a biblical context showing Gods love to you and Jesus’s forgiveness. - Because you are sorry, you believe that we should leave the hurt that you are to blame for, and are standing up and being counted for, at the foot of Jesus’s cross so that you can continue your “Friendship” with EnablerW and (y)our children in peace, without misery and any confusion. - Since we should forgive you for the unpalatable, humanly inconceivable ‘truth’ of your behaviour that has caused enormous amounts of distress for 4 years we should no longer hold on to the past. - Since we should no longer hold on to the past because we have forgiven YOU and placed YOUR sin at the foot of Jesus’s cross so that YOU are forgiven we should all sit down and discuss what the future looks like. - Since YOUR sin is forgiven by us and God, God has plans for you to prosper, have hope and not be harmed. - Since God has plans for you and your ‘natural connection’ with EnablerW and these plans are inevitable, others should accept Gods plans. - Since we should accept God’s plans for your natural connection, and we have forgiven the sins of the past which you have stood up for, we should act in Unity and solidarity behind God’s plan. - Since God has given you this plan and you know God, You are acting with divine leadership in your ‘natural connection’ with EnablerW. - Since we should act in solidarity and unity behind your divine leadership, we should not follow the crowd which might not agree with your plan. - If we are acting in solidarity and unity together behind your anointed leadership plan we will be demonstrating an adult, mature, wide-minded example to our children. - If we are following your plan our children will not grow up in an insecure, shaky existence being unsure about their firm family foundation, they will grow up wise, loving and wide-minded seeing the example that their parents who are following God’s plan are showing them - If we follow the plan, you will not live with EnablerW until such time you decide, and when God decides you shall be kind enough to divorce OMsW and marry EnablerW. You will guarantee that for OMsW, and I, because we deserve that level of confidence that you wouldn’t do cohabitation to us or the kids .   - We should trust your guarantees because you are trustworthy and Godly…. and sorry. - Because we have your trusted guarantees and because we’re in unity supporting your transcendent plan there is no need to do anything rash, or silly and we can all get what we want. - Shall we pray about that?

If you follow through his email with his logic that is exactly what he's thinking... and that makes him absolutely mental.

[Enabler]

What is best for the kids is not predicated on that email.

Simple question... which would you choose:

1) Letting her cover-up her indiscretion (in exchange for a cooperative co-parenting agreement that works with your schedule) 2) Insisting she "out herself" (and hoping that the shame or the loss of the financial support of the OM will make it impossible for her to leave)

You dabble with #1 but you keep coming back to #2.

Both have a good chance of working.

Part of me thinks this email says even more than it says... I'm trying to put together what I think is his logic and frankly it's bonkers. So part of me thinks 2 is the ONLY option.

[Cat Familiar]

I think you've absolutely nailed his position! But I disagree, he's not "mental"--it makes perfect sense in the world of a narcissist/sociopath. I was married to one for a long time, but mine also had BPD, so he did doubt himself at moments and felt worthless for a minute or two.

[Enabler]

It is very very consistent with previous communications I have seen between him and W, between him and me over the last 4 years.

Put in black and white it's terrifying.

What else is justifiable in the name of God?

[Cat Familiar]

To put it into perspective, some very nice narcissist/sociopaths exist. Some may even have high positions in the church.

[Skip]

It's really important to stay centered. Why? Because this can get to be far worse than you can imagine. We have members who have gone down this path and encountered incredible losses - including life. If you want to read the cases, I'll pull them from the archives.

Simple question... which would you choose:

1) Letting her cover-up her indiscretion (in exchange for a cooperative co-parenting agreement that works with your schedule) 2) Insisting she "out herself" (and hoping that the shame or the loss of the financial support of the OM will make it impossible for her to leave)

Part of me thinks this email says even more than it says... I'm trying to put together what I think is his logic and frankly it's bonkers. So part of me thinks 2 is the ONLY option.

Enabler, I respect you for being open an honest. At the same time, it has to be very clearly said that option #2 is domestic abuse.

It's one thing if you were competing for your wife's affections and she was open to rehabilitating your marriage. None of that is happening, nor is it in the discussions here, or on the table. If you have any hope of recovering this relationship, this the worst possible way to go.

It is wrong that she has been seeing another man for years, rather than exiting or repairing the marriage. Awful. The damage is done.

It is equally wrong to try to trap her to stay in the marriage she does not want by using FOG (fear, obligation, guilt, or blackmail) and/or by financial means. Disgusting. But you still have time to turn back.

You can mock his faith values as opportunistic and call him "mental" - it's valid. But it's no more valid than for him to mock your "truth" values as opportunistic and call you "misguided". Both camps can do this - build drama triangles with family and friends - widen the divide - make the problem more unsolvable -  ultimately widen and deepen the destruction.

All four of you contributed to the demise of these two marriages - not equally - but materially. You blame it on him. He blames it on you. This is raw emotion. Testosterone.

I encourage you to be the adult in the room and rise above this for the good of these six children who's families are broken (past tense).

Bottom line, if the children were the priority, you would have picked option #1 without hesitation. You didn't pick it here and you didn't pick similar choices elsewhere in these threads.

Four years can drag into six and then into eight. Do you want this cloud -adult cold war - to have loomed over your children's entire childhood? Be their "normal"?

[Enabler]

Okay, I don’t think option 1 and option 2 are fair options, you’ve made something binary that isn’t binary.

I don’t think ignoring this and letting this craziness slide is good for the children... do you?

[Notwendy]

So much time, energy, analyzing OM, his e mails, what he is thinking. Maybe you are spot on and maybe not. We aren't mind readers. The focus is entirely on him, Enabler's wife and the terrible thing they have done. The result: the "only " option is punitive and harmful: He hurt you, yes, in a terrible way but is the only option to do something hurtful to them?

There is a payoff to doing #2: it could make it impossible for your wife to leave. Maybe this is the best outcome that you want: for her to stay with you.

Collateral damage? Skip has pointed out some possibilities.

There is another option besides #2. There is a greater judge who can determine a punishment. Even if you choose to not expose them, they are exposed to that Judge. Choosing #1 won't change that, but if it is best for your children, then perhaps that's the choice to consider.

[Cat Familiar]

How can you best proceed, considering that you're in an unfavorable position?

You've surmised that your wife wants a guilt-free ending of your marriage. Now you need to discern what OM wants. In particular, how does he envision the kids' lives? What is his plan?

Maintaining the status quo no longer seems operational. How can you hold your center in a meeting and do some discovery about the plans in the works, as it seems certainly he's been thinking about the future.

[FaithHopeLove]

I don’t think ignoring this and letting this craziness slide is good for the children... do you?

Your children do not care about whether your wife outs herself or not.  They only care about their own safety and whether their parents still love them.

How do I know? My husband's ex wife became an ex by having an affair. I once mentioned it to her daughter, now my step daughter. It hurt her deeply. She could not care less whose fault the divorce was. She only wanted to know that both her parents still loved her. I regret making that mistake.

The most loving thing you could do for your children right now is to put your anger toward your wife aside and focus on reassuring them that you both still love them and nothing that happens in the future will change that.

This means option 1.  Let the craziness slide for the sake of your children.