The effects of narcissism on health and the motivation behind intervention - Part 2

[Jareth89]

This thread was split from this discussion: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=340085.0

Harri and NotWendy, I'm finishing a document detailing all of her behaviours over the 2 year period since her PD emerged. Thanks for your interest and support   In addition to documenting the interactions between SIL/me, I have to detail the behaviour patterns between my SIL/brother,  SIL/her parents,  brother/her parents, brother/me and her parents/me. Then I have a meeting in a few days with this guy - I can detail who he is when we have a strategy nailed down. We would prefer to have my brother attend the meeting having been informed of the purpose (invitation), but such is the stubborn nature of my brother I don't think it will work and worse still he could tell his wife without having been informed by the professional exactly why he can't do that. So at the moment the plan is to invite him over to the house not knowing the purpose or that a professional will be talking to him (after I have gently shared my concerns with him). FourWinds you have incredible insight from the SIL position, it was lifesaving for me and helped me to fast-track to this point  . I had many light-bulb moments reading your story. I don't know how this will go. About your own brother, never say never...maybe something useful can come out of my situation. I will be updating.

My brother and his wife came over to the house on Sunday (she has not been over for months despite me inviting). She is quite agitated and anxious around me but was better than usual. She was openly affectionate towards my brother. She was more like her old self (before PD emerged) but it's possible she is already pregnant:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=233086.msg12494661#msg12494661

When our ex-uBPD DIL was pregnant, she was happy and behaved "normally".  Whether this was due to the increased hormones in her body or not, or whether she was revered/catered to or not, or she whether felt relieved of responsibility for the present and embracing the future or not, or whatever; she was far easier to be around.  Perhaps this "condition " might also be affecting your SIL; if so, then the party for your grandmother might be rather enjoyable.  Our exDIL was pregnant twice - those were the only months that I felt that I could interact with her without trepidation and we had some semblance of "family".

However, when I was talking about my plans to go to a research institute overseas with the medical literature info (and some missing links that were passed to me by a Russian scientist who went missing during the ukraine crisis), my SIL could barely contain her anger. I could see her blood starting to simmer and her bottom lip started quivering. The mask was slipping. When she left the room, my brother started with his routine of being exceedingly negative towards me over my medical work, casting doubt on anything I say, zero curiosity and stating 'It's not benefiting anyone' and 'you should just accept it and move on'. He is mirroring my SIL's attitude with no regard to my actual wellbeing - i'm his sister. I have no idea why my SIL is so troubled by the concept that I can cure my condition. It's not that difficult. Her parents echo her feelings. A while ago when I told her I was going overseas she said 'Well keep us informed', then appeared uncomfortable and quipped 'Just remember it might not be' (the cure). My brother noted the inappropriateness of it and changed the subject. I can only think that:

a) she feels abandonment because my routine of visiting her has changed due to being busy with literature (she dissociated when I visited her after an absence)
b) she had an opinion about my condition that has been proved wrong (she always has to be right)
c) she has been using my medical condition/her opinion to devalue me to my brother
d) getting myself back to 100% fitness is somehow a threat to her
e) she feels that my medical work is taking attention away from her
f) she just needs to create any kind of conflict between me and my brother

When I told my brother that I wasn't going to share any more details with him if he was going to be so disparaging he became more irate.

The impression is she holds a knife to his back while he talks to me. That his peace, emotional/physical safety is dependent on me submitting to his requests, even if this is against my best interests or dangerous to me. She probably punishes him if he doesn't succeed in getting me to submit to her wishes. He's become a hostage to the conditional crumbs of love she throws him and he sees me as being the catalyst for his punishment every time...because I can't submit. As they were driving away I said to him 'Have a peaceful evening' and he moaned 'Yeaaaaaaah'  

[Four Winds]

Jareth89, I am thinking of you and wishing you all the strength in your quest to assist your brother and your family.  Be prepared though for him to turn on YOU to try to avoid and deny there is a problem.  This seems to be the mode of operation of my brother and his wife.

Regarding your medical issues (it sounds like you have a rare condition and you are putting in a huge effort to try and seek a cure) - have you been watching the new Netflix series Diagnosis”?  It taps into crowdsourcing around the world with the aim to solve medical mysteries - with incredible results. 

[Notwendy]

My BPD mother prefers to get attention for her medical issues but seems to either respond coldly or get agitated if anyone else’s are mentioned. It may be an attention thing.

When you discussed your medical issue it may have been perceived as a threat or taking attention away from her.

When my father was ill- it upset my mother that we paid attention to him. It’s as if there‘s a limit to love and attention. Your brother can love both of you- one doesn’t take from the other but she may not see it this way.

If I want an uneventful encounter with my mother - I don’t talk about myself. I let her talk about her. Your medical plans are important - but it may be better to not share them with her. If your goal is a short peaceful visit - then don’t share your personal info. We call this “medium chill “- talk about neutral, non emotional topics.

[Jareth89]

Be prepared though for him to turn on YOU to try to avoid and deny there is a problem.  This seems to be the mode of operation of my brother and his wife.

Among other issues...cognitive dissonance. We will be looking at his psychological profile and come up with something to avoid the above scenario.

Regarding your medical issues (it sounds like you have a rare condition and you are putting in a huge effort to try and seek a cure) - have you been watching the new Netflix series Diagnosis”?  It taps into crowdsourcing around the world with the aim to solve medical mysteries - with incredible results.  

It's not rare. In fact the answers are already out there and have been documented in the literature (like with many so called incurable conditions). I might post on this later. Some of the information is also talked about at the major conferences. Just that the separate pieces of the puzzle were not put together and there is an important missing link (which was given to me by chance) which scientists don't know about. The medical condition was hijacked by a group of highly influential people in a certain profession, who by virtue of knowledge gained in this field, were able to influence/manipulate how this condition is viewed by the medical profession, those who write guidelines and the general public (via newspapers). It's all going to come out and it will cause ripples. Not least because the information written about this condition enables around 8 others (fairly common conditions) to be cured and offers an instruction manual on how to attain and maintain optimal health (bad news for pharm). It's a holy grail, not exaggerating. It's going to be out in the public domain in a few months anyway. I have a friend in US - also a patient -  who is with a researcher who has been shown the papers and given the information. However she's gone quiet on me and we have stopped sharing info between us (prospect of fame and/or $$$ = no empathy). To be honest i'm tired of bumping into these kinds of people. Achieving major personal goals and acting with humanity are mutually exclusive these days. It takes nothing to help a friend who is against the clock, for her personal life. Considering I was the only person there for her, while we went through this. Her husband was emotionally absent.

It's not costly to solve my problem but I need to be headstrong and not have obstacles thrown my way by people who should be behind me. It's horrible timing that my SIL came out with this last year, since it was last year when I started to get moving on my work and naturally I expected everyone to be excited and so interested (because it's interesting). Instead she became a different person, was cold and turned my brother against me and I ended up having serious arguments with my parents which resulted in me seeing a psychologist for the first time in my life. Visiting psychs this year has been an interrogational experience, since aside from my brother i'm the only witness to the behaviours. I've been under quite intense scrutiny. Under siege from SIL and brother, scared to see brother like that - a revelation about him. A further revelation about her parents and then panic about the x3 exposure of my brother to PD. Made to question my own memory, perception and sanity (thank god I documented the behaviours). Because of the covert nature, I still have moments when I have to convince myself that this is real.

I never knew how hard it is to stand alone with your disturbing truth when all around are manipulating, lying or prefer not to have their world rocked. Who do you believe when you tell a psych that everyone is in denial except me? Since I knew time was important if I wanted to save my brother from my SIL's psychological onslaught, I shelved some of my literature work to focus on his problem. That carries a cost for me. The more time goes on, the more I feel like I will lose him mentally. So it's become an obsession. Definitely the toughest year of my life. I staked a lot on this, it caused me so much pain, so I have to get a result. Meanwhile SIL's life appears unaffected with new job, salary increase and planning another baby. You know what they say, don't look back in anger...

[Notwendy]

Small children are normally self centered and expect to be the center of attention. This changes as they get older. My mother and others with BPD can have emotional immaturity and respond like a child when they see attention isn’t on them.

Of course you expect people close to you to be supportive of your health but it’s possible that your SIL isn’t capable of this. It’s not a personal thing about you. I understand you wish she could be supportive but she may not be able to.

[Jareth89]

Small children are normally self centered and expect to be the center of attention. This changes as they get older. My mother and others with BPD can have emotional immaturity and respond like a child when they see attention isn’t on them. Of course you expect people close to you to be supportive of your health but it’s possible that your SIL isn’t capable of this. It’s not a personal thing about you. I understand you wish she could be supportive but she may not be able to.

In comparison to a child, what level of emotional immaturity are we talking about? I haven't seen my nephew behave like this, he is attentive to the emotional state of those around him and if someone is unwell or unhappy he shows concern and sensitivity. I can accept my SIL being like this as a result of her condition, it's not so much that she's passively unsupportive, she's vindictive. What I can't accept is her pulling my brother down with her, altering his character and encouraging or forcing him to behave inhumanely towards me. She will not pull him over to the dark side. I dread to think what is actually going on behind closed doors and can't wait to tease this out of him, whatever the risk. I never knew that someone could be manipulated like this. I have almost had to detach myself emotionally from my brother in order to study him.

[zachira]

One of the hardest things for me to accept is that we all have different levels of abilities and skills when it comes to knowing how to read other people and how to respond. I often see small children who have loving parents who are much more mature in many ways than lots of adults, and who know better than many adults how to have empathy for others and connect with them. There can be enormous differences in emotional maturity in siblings raised together in the same family because of genetic and environmental differences. How are you different from your brother and what do you think would be the best ways to meet him at his level of emotional maturity? It seems he has chosen a wife who is able to manipulate him and bring him down to lower levels of functioning. What you are describing reminds me of people that get in a relationship with an abuser, and their self esteem just sinks lower and lower, which could be what is happening with your brother. What do you think? What was he like before he became involved with this woman?

[Notwendy]

It’s not the same for all people with BPD but my mother has difficulty with empathy and likes to have attention on her. Your nephew may show empathy but I don’t think a small child would be attentive in a discussion about medical research.

While you may not want to have a relationship with your SIL if your brother does then she is a member of your family. It may benefit you to not discuss your medical research with her - for the sake of some peace when you are both in the same company.

[TelHill]

I have a similar situation to notwendy. My dBPD mom is not empathetic. She manipulates situations so she benefits from them.  It might be best to accept the situation and move on from it.  It's not worth the trouble.

[Notwendy]

I have an odd memory from my teen years. I was visiting a friend and the friend was arguing with her parents. Her parents were heartbroken and pleading with her over a bad decision she was making and she wouldn't listen to them. Even though I was also a teen, I agreed with the parents. I could see how sad they were.

I came home upset from the situation and tried to explain it to my parents. They looked at me with blank expressions.  They didn't get what I was trying to share. I was shocked and although I didn't understand all of it then, I realized that- my parents, or possibly just my mother- were not able to perceive someone else's hurt feelings, and so they couldn't connect with what I was trying to relate to them- that I was upset because I could see my friend's parents were upset.

My BPD mother is so overwhelmed by her own feelings, I don't think she has the ability to perceive someone else's. Perhaps your SIL isn't capable of understanding what you are trying to relate to her. Maybe your brother is showing concern for you but she can't see why.

I'd let this go. If she can't do it, she can't. Even if she's vindictive. Perhaps it is easier to be vindictive if you don't perceive the effect it has on other people. But regardless, if something is meaningful to you, and it isn't to someone else, then no need to share it with them.

[Jareth89]

I have a similar situation to notwendy. My dBPD mom is not empathetic. She manipulates situations so she benefits from them.  It might be best to accept the situation and move on from it. 

Yes I was fixated on trying to understand the reason(s) behind the behaviour. Whatever I do it won't stop her needing to devalue me, she will always see me as a threat, she will continue to pollute my brother with reinforcement from her parents. This is not  a safe situation for him - with special concerns about the FIL. Just thought it was interesting to add that 2018 was the start of her dysregulation and she has wiped all public Facebook posts/images from 2018 and before. Almost the entire content. It's like this is her new chapter, she finally metamorphosised into this borderline butterfly.

Just not sure whether this should be attempted before Christmas or after. I'm going through preparations now and will update as I progress, but not sure about the timing of when to actually do it.

[Four Winds]

Christmas and holiday seasons somehow seem to trigger more BPD rages with resultant family instability, I would be a little cautious of treading down this path around this time. I recall having had my similar conversation with my brother about 8 years ago - it was close to Christmas time and the meltdowns and crazy behaviour from his wife were spectacular.

Incidentally when I asked him about our Christmas plans for this year, he informed me that he and his wife would not be spending it with his FOO - rather they were having their Christmas dinner with her friends instead.  Sigh...

[Skip]

Just not sure whether this should be attempted before Christmas or after. I'm going through preparations now and will update as I progress, but not sure about the timing of when to actually do it.

How has your brother reacted since the last time you saw him / last conversation about his wife?

You talked earlier about getting him access to tools that will help him navigate his marriage better for all involved (wife, kids, FOO).  Is that still your plan.

Did you get a chance to look at "High Conflict Couple"?

[Jareth89]

You talked earlier about getting him access to tools that will help him navigate his marriage better for all involved (wife, child, FOO). Is that still the plan.

Simply, with time, he is fading and becoming unrecognisable. Loss of identity. I'm amazed by how fast this occurs.

Yes I'm approaching this problem with humanity, but the aim is to get SIL into therapy. My brother needs to be sorted out first. The facts need to be gathered with no emotions attached and will be assessed as such. The goal is to help, but we first need to know how bad the situation really is and then how to deal with that. Me being outside the marriage - limited knowledge, with SIL being very covert and brother being secretive (for what reason?) there is a LOT of missing information that only my brother can provide. We can't assess how serious this is without his information. He is the key to solving this and also the obstacle.

As a member on here once told me 'What you're trying to do will be like diffusing a bomb, one wrong move and the whole thing could explode and be made worse'. A separate problem is her parents who are also PD - extent unknown regarding how they behave around my brother in private. Ultimately they need to be acknowledging of the harmful behaviours, need to not enable their daughter and be receptive to her receiving treatment. They need to curb their own unhelpful behaviour around my brother.

How has your brother reacted since the last time you saw him / last conversation about his wife?

In the whole 24 months of her PD surfacing, I have only mentioned her behaviour twice to him and it was before I knew she had a PD:
*Dec 2018 - He immediately understood what I told him, it resonated with him and he looked extremely uncomfortable and began to leave without saying a word  - I didn't ask him to. He went back home, must have told his wife because the controlling behaviours increased, including her parents. The greater the threat (me/truth info) the more she controls/gaslights him and devalues me to offset his exposure to the truth.
*Feb 2019 - I said 'You're being manipulated' and 'What would your brother think?'. He bowed his head in acknowledgement twice, then paused and told me to F-off (denial).
*Since I found out she had a PD, I have never discussed her behaviours with him, but have reprimanded him whenever he was rude to me. I observe and document the behaviours.

Jan 2018- He was normal, challenging her and open with me (we have never had trust issues). During the months that followed she was gradually 'working on him' to submit to her demands.
Feb 2019 - After she was made aware of my comments to him, he is fully under her control and her parents are having a reinforcing effect (her echo chamber). He no longer confides in me anymore despite looking depressed, doesn't challenge her, operates as she instructs him to (no ethics) and is diminished. A timid man, stripped of his masculinity, lacking in any potency and vitality. Unable to be true to himself.

Did you get a chance to look at "High Conflict Couple"

Yes I have ordered it and it's in the post on its way to me. I've thought about this for a while and come to the conclusion that in my brother's case, as much as I want to, I don't think I can give him the book alone and expect him to figure this out:

a)We have yet to formally talk about his wife's behaviours and get him to admit there is a problem with her behaviours.
b)Even if that works out ok, if I don't tell him that it's a PD - BPD traits then he will just go home and discuss everything with his wife.
c)This will raise her suspicions of me even further (she will share with parents), before I have managed to mention BPD or a psychologist to my brother. Giving him an opportunity to alert her to the fact I have identified behaviour problems significant enough to recommend a book, gives her an advantage to brainwash him away from this topic, possibly enlisting her parents as reinforcement.
d)The brainwashing/threats she could perform on him, will switch him off from ever contemplating PD - BPD traits.

Mindset of brother
- Overwhelming confusion and shock about why his wife's (and her parents!) behaviour has changed so suddenly - a dramatic departure from the norm.
-He is aware of her behaviours and her manipulations, but is secretly deeply ashamed and bewildered. This is not the woman he married or the in-laws he knew.
-He minimises and explains away any conspicuous behaviour and places the blame on others.
-He has adapted his behaviour to stabilise and survive the situation, not knowing what the cause is and therefore not able to effectively problem solve. Additionally his perceptions are being distorted and he is likely having to adhere to a set of 'rules' set down by his wife/parents with consequences if not followed.
-He is not familiar with personality disorders and may not have the curiosity to discover that she has a PD himself. I can't rely on the assumption that he will (how long would that even take?).

I have no guaranteed private line of communication with him at the moment. I proceed on the assumption that there is nothing I can discuss with him as his sister that will remain private from his wife. He doesn't understand the mindset of a person with BPD traits. He therefore can't predict her behaviour and won't know what he can and can't do in that context.

He needs to have this explained to him by a professional, an authority on the matter, someone he can respect and have security with. This person needs to be present when I decide to approach the topic with my brother. He can then take the advice seriously and understand why this can't be discussed yet with his wife (which may feel like a betrayal to him). He will also understand that he needs to see a clinical psychologist, which I have lined up. As far as I am aware, there are no clinical psychologists who are able to also act as interventionists for cases like this. That would be the ideal scenario. However he needs to understand and identify the controlling behaviours and the impact this has had on his own mental health - psychological support for him to understand his experience. A coercive/controlling relationship is similar to a 2-person cult. One partner attempts to gain control over the other like a cult leader does over their followers. I have someone who is trained to intervene in cult scenarios and has qualifications in the psychology of coercive control. He applies this knowledge to also offer psychological support/education to those who have been in controlling relationships. He has not been asked to participate in an intervention on a controlling relationship before, but the same knowledge applies and will be adapted for this scenario.

The intervention is for my brother to regain control of his own mind, come back to reality, understand what has happened and regain his identity. Then we work out a strategy together on how to get help for his wife, which may be complicated by her parents  - there is missing information on their behaviours.

[Jareth89]

Parents are currently totally oblivious to the situation (their choice...everything is a choice), for all of this year pretty much. Raised the issue on numerous occasions. They didn't see anything, everything looks fine when they go over to son's house, their son has said nothing to them and 'he would if there was an issue'...so no problem exists. They are aware of my brother's negativity towards me, aware that he acknowledged being manipulated...I have told them SIL has changed, in-laws have changed. I have told my father that FIL has exhibited controlling behaviours around brother (not for much longer). This picture is looking good! I think when my parents are not here, this will be the green light for them to isolate my brother. In my opinion this is the only deterrent, which once removed will give them more freedom to do as they wish. Parents know nothing about the intervention plans, don't know I've been seeing this guy. I will have to get a psychologist to speak to my parents - I can't conduct the intervention without them knowing what is happening. My whole family has been divided by SIL with bpd

Don't set yourself on fire to keep others warm - Don't put us in a situation where we have to! Someone has to take responsibility for this or else the whole family takes the consequences - who can live with it on their conscience? Nothing was done! This was not our choice. All this could be over if he would come and talk to me.

As your emotions fool you, my strong will rule
I won't feel restraint, watching you close sense down
I can't compensate, that's more than I've got to give

[Skip]

What did you want us to see in the link?

[Jareth89]

What did you want us to see in the link?

Link was removed (I wasn't aware of the rule - sorry). Case reports - 'My whole family has been divided by sister in law with BPD' - from members on another website (Out of the Fog). It was useful for me to compare and see the similarities in how the circumstances had caused division, so I thought it might also be useful for others in my situation.

[Skip]

I see. OK.

There is more of his going on than you might think.

We have had many grandparents come here after there were written out of their grandchild's life.

We have had  members her with problem MIL and SIL that caused splits in the family.

You are not alone.

[Jareth89]

I see. OK. There is more of this going on than you might think.
We have had many grandparents come here after they were written out of their grandchild's life.
We have had  members here with problem MIL and SIL that caused splits in the family.
You are not alone.

I've spent an enormous amount of my personal time reading the in-laws with PD, SIL's with lost brothers, mothers with lost sons and men who have been in BPD relationships - including yours when you were 'Skippy'. Also been in extensive contact with a man who was in a long marriage with his bpdwife. He very kindly offered me all the answers (30+ pages) I could ever wish for. I've gone above and beyond the call of duty - like many on here. None of the cases lose their shock value, but 3PD's around one person is going to have a psychological impact that can't be underestimated and time is fairly short. Will be done in January. This is hard for me.

In some ways I've wondered if it's worse than drug addiction. If your brother was addicted to crack, it would still be devastating to you to watch him kill himself and you would think he should recognise how damaging it is to him. The reason I think it's worse is because I would guess that even drug addicts understand they are hurting themselves to some degree and just can't stop, whereas abused people think they are improving the relationship or being a good spouse by taking the abuse. To watch your brother live with his wife's abuse is as difficult as it might be to watch him throw away his life to drug use

[Jareth89]

The upshot of all this is that my SIL introduced me to a subject area which is important, interesting and I may never have even looked at if not for her - I want to help her and my nephew is a ray of sunshine in all this. Maybe it enables me to also not end up on the boards here with my own relationships. Few months ago I attracted a borderline man, he came up to me like a magnet which was a strange experience all by itself (it was like time sped up).  Also weirdly realised in my travels that psychology/understanding of human nature is being used in a predatory manner against us, to pervert  and subvert humanity (Tavistock Institute etc). On a lighter note it doesn't hurt that my therapist is also hot 

[Jareth89]

Did you get a chance to look at "High Conflict Couple"?

Book came today, it looks very interesting and will be of great help. Thanks for the suggestion, I wouldn't have found it myself  

[Skip]

including yours when you were 'Skippy'

I'm always touched when someone reads my struggle. Those years were archived, but we pulled a few members cases back out because of requests. It's a lot of vulnerability, but it is part of us all being peers.

Book came today, it looks very interesting and will be of great help. Thanks for the suggestion, I wouldn't have found it myself  

It's not your typical self help book, for sure. Alan gets to the point and doesn't write much fluff. It's a great book for couples locked in a cycle of conflict. Its a good roadmap to navigating a relationships full of triggers and life long wounds.

[Jareth89]

Team PD were exceedingly well behaved at Christmas, it is so strange to be on the receiving end of such changeable behaviour. Everything was almost like it was pre-PD. So while it was a nice atmosphere, I felt sad that there was another serious side to this picture that tainted everything. It was a reminder to not be deceived by appearances and wishful thinking:

It is conflicting to witness SIL and brother being charming and lighthearted and the family all hitting it off. I have to remind myself of their other behaviors so I don’t doubt myself. My SIL is a covert BPD, so there are times I doubt my own perceptions... Brother is a ticking bomb... I stay on pins and needles for his next outburst or blown fuse.

... the dysfunction zones in and out depending on the circumstances.There are occasions when things are quite smooth and seemingly normal and you might indeed question whether you are on the right track or not.

FIL still has a commanding presence and seems to be a little wary of me when I catch my brother alone in another room and chat with him. Even among PD's there is a pecking order, FIL is at the top. I worry about his interactions with my brother a lot, there is much that is not known and out of sight when I am not there. I can't comprehend that her parents know about SIL's difficult behaviours and that my brother is exposed to it and apparently expected to take it? I wonder whether his wellbeing is considered at all, or if he is just the provider of the much-wanted grandchildren. I really don't know. I do feel like he is 'owned' by them. I did at one point give my SIL a big hug, in front of her parents, but I don't know if this will change their behaviours and their vision of me. SIL needs therapy and the parents are going to have to be confronted about all this at some point, after I have dealt with my brother. Feel a lot of weight on my shoulders for months already. It's exhausting staying one step ahead of SIL, carrying all the responsibility and truth about the dark dynamics. What they think I don't know and how my brother keeps this all a secret from me.

Still drafting the intervention letter. Must avoid the scenario below taking place. If he is left to wake up on his own and needs to leave he may not be able to if there is nobody left to 'welcome him with open arms'. Goal is to still fix this situation for some happy ending, but it's taking everything that I've got.

It took me 13 years to escape. I tried to escape all along, but for one reason or another got dragged, bribed, or coerced back into the FOG. I was isolated, and made dependent, and only escaped when staying another minute seemed unimaginable to me. After all the layers of my false-self were stripped away, she finally got down to a core set of beliefs that I wasn't willing to give up in order to keep the peace. Holding onto my core self was more important to me than any fear, obligation, guilt, shame, or consequences.

Fortunately in my case, she wasn't able to cause me to have (too many) bad feelings about my family, she only isolated me from them. I still worry about her well-being. I still miss being worshiped during the good times. I still suffer from PTSD over simple things like cooking, taking out the garbage, mowing the lawn, etc. I don't miss for a second the constant belittlement. I don't miss the unstable memories. I don't miss the disordered thinking. I don't miss the gaslighting.

I escaped with 3 pairs of pants, a pair of shoes, and about 6 shirts. No phone. No car. No job. My mother welcomed me home with open arms. May you be lucky enough one day to do the same.

[Harri]

Hi Jareth.  I am happy to hear that things went relatively well for all of you on Christmas.  The holiday can be a real strain for some families especially with BPD in the mix. 

I felt sad that there was another serious side to this picture that tainted everything.

I can very much relate to the sadness you speak of here, I think many of us on this board can.  Even the 'good' times can be tainted by the realities. 

I can't comprehend that her parents know about SIL's difficult behaviours and that my brother is exposed to it and apparently expected to take it? I wonder whether his wellbeing is considered at all, or if he is just the provider of the much-wanted grandchildren. I really don't know. I do feel like he is 'owned' by them.

Knowing about the behaviors and understand the impact, the cause and the damage that can happen are very different things.  Her parents may not be as aware as you would think they are.  If your SILs behaviors are more learned behaviors as your labeling the family as disordered, they will not see it.   A lot of us here, raised in disordered family environments had no clue and could not even see some of our own dysfunction.  Could that be at play here?

I did at one point give my SIL a big hug, in front of her parents, but I don't know if this will change their behaviours and their vision of me.

If they have the impression that you are the problem, chances are that one hug will not make a difference.  Sort of similar to how a 'good' Christmas is not changing your mind about your SIL and her family.  I say that from a place of sympathy and understanding, I hope you know that.     There are a lot of perspectives and variables that are at work here and we might not be able to reconcile all of them.  Consequences exist from past events even if we know they are not necessarily fair or in keeping with our reality.   I struggled with that a lot earlier in my recovery.  Self-differentiation, radical acceptance and almost constant reminding myself that each person gets to label their own experience is what helped me move through.  That said, it was hard and I did not like that part of recovery at all! 

SIL needs therapy and the parents are going to have to be confronted about all this at some point, after I have dealt with my brother.

I did not realize this was part of your plan.  Who do you see presenting this info to them?  You or your brother? 

Feel a lot of weight on my shoulders for months already. It's exhausting staying one step ahead of SIL, carrying all the responsibility and truth about the dark dynamics.

You have taken on a lot in an effort to save your brother.

What they think I don't know and how my brother keeps this all a secret from me.

Can you elaborate here?  I don't understand and I want to. 

 

[Jareth89]

Hi Harri  

When I've recharged myself, i'm going ahead with the following plan. I don't see that I have an alternative given what I need to say to him, without allowing him to take the easy way out  into denial. My interventionist (coercive control/cult specialist) has spoken to his supervisors about assisting me and they have no problems with him going ahead. He has been away for a few weeks so I will be meeting up with him again in the next few days once he has spoken to another tutor. I will be going over my intervention letter/plan with him and also getting a second opinion on the content from a clinical psych. So the plan is as follows:

• Draft an intervention plan (what to say to my brother, in what order, in a manner in which he is least likely to reject it)
• Conduct intervention at my house to inform brother about wife's mental condition. Discuss how this affects her behaviour. Explain that her parents are affected by PD's also and that all were triggered in 2018 starting with wife (by her abandonment fears)
• By having a professional present (interventionist-controlling behaviour expert or clinical psych) it formalises the process which will encourage him to take it seriously. He will have in-situ access to professional advice and emotional support about how to proceed with this situation. He will be advised not to share details of the meeting or further conversations with his wife and given an explanation of why this is necessary in the context of wife's condition and what will occur if he doesn't adhere to this advice
• A trusted private line of communication will be set up between brother/myself and brother/clinical psych while the situation with  wife/parents is assessed. The controlling behaviour expert will also help him to identify and understand the controlling behaviours and the impact this has had on his own mental health. Determine the severity and assist with appropriate therapy.
• With clinical psych - assess plausibility of treatment for wife and how to approach for therapy. Discuss complication of her parents (they will be made aware whatever) and whether they will be receptive. Consider consequences to brother of his wife being hostile to therapy. What then for the future of the marriage, his wellbeing and the broad sense of family?

The controlling behaviours (by all 3 but esp. wife) can't continue, my brother needs to fully regain his autonomy which his wife and parents must respect. It is important for the child to have an assertive, not submissive father as a role model.

Putting myself in his shoes, I imagine the initial shock will feel like this: Four Winds - 'After I told my brother about the PD problem with his wife...we argued (in our whole lives together we had never really argued before) and he kept referring back to how I had told him that his wife had a mental health problem...he did however say during one heated conversation that he could never ever face up to or admit that she had something like this wrong with her because then everything he has worked so hard for regarding her in his life would all be for nothing.'

Once he gets over the shock I think this is how he will feel about his wife (from stop walking on eggshells):

I stayed with my wife for the same reasons I fell in love with her. She is bright, beautiful, witty, passionate and fun. When we got married, I didn't know she had BPD. In fact I didn't know what BPD was until it was clinically diagnosed.
       I knew early on that there were problems; sometimes they were frustrating; sometimes they made me angry. Sometimes they scared the hell out of me. No matter what, however, she was still the person I loved who just happened to have a mental illness. Even during the worst of it, I never considered leaving. I wasn't about to throw away a relationship so easily, especially one where so much of it was good. She was very sick...but I could always see the good in her.
       After her four years of therapy...our marriage is very close. The reward for loyalty has been great -- the same passion, the same beauty, the same wit that attracted me to her in the first place are all there.

But the fear and confusion of BPD are gone

Poll: How do BPD relationships finally end https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=39279.msg363641#msg363641

Still married to Tina, for over 30years.
Mark

Skip,   I don't know if you can really cope with BPD? Either us nons or the ones who have it.  

The only reason our relationship even had a chance, was because Tina took responsibility for herself, sought help, and followed through.
Take care, Mark

Harri 'I did not realize this was part of your plan.  Who do you see presenting this info to them?  You or your brother?'

Most likely me.  
On NY's eve, I text SIL a happy NY. She replied back 'Let's make 2020 the best'. Indeed.

[Four Winds]

Jareth89 having read your comprehensive plan to inform and attempt to educate your brother I am hugely impressed by your utter commitment to try and bring him back into his former self (before team BPD took control of his life).  However... I do feel deep down that despite your good intentions that this might be a risky course of action and you have to be prepared that this has the potential to go very wrong.  The outcome following this could be estrangement from him and his family and the long term tragic consequences of this on you, your relationships with your parents and your ongoing health issues. I am not going to try and deter you as I appreciate your intent to carry this through to completion.  I been dealing with this exact situation myself for so many years now, but miraculously I still have some connection to my brother and I can still play a limited role in the life of his children however hard his wife tries to stymie my efforts. Also my elderly mother in her twilight years still has some access (however limited) to her grandchildren.  This is better than nothing believe me. If I had tried what you are proposing to do, the chances of me being cut off and my mother denied seeing her beloved grandkids would have been immense.  I just couldn’t take that chance. My brother is completely manipulated and controlled by the SIL and she controls all forms of communication and access to him. The amount of damage she would have unleashed on all of us would have been apocalyptic!  His situation is something he has to come to grips with all by himself.  All I can do is sit and wait and hope, and aim to be the safety net if either he or his children reach out for support and help in the future.  I wish you all the best for a positive outcome.

[Jareth89]

I've not done it yet - I'm waiting to hear if a clinical psych will do this.

Even the long-suffering Fourwinds is getting cold feet about this. You accurately told the danger of going ahead. It is tough. For me, none of the options available are attractive; wait for him to hit rock bottom in god knows how many years time or take a chance, intervene now with all the risk that carries but with at least the possibility of a bright outcome. Having read the cases, I don't see anything optimistic with the current advice to step away a little but leave the door open indefinitely. It's a very uncertain future and nobody knows how that will work out. Moreover, it seems a waste of valuable time - husband/wife have no prospect for improvement, the harmful dynamics the children are exposed to and families watch in turmoil. It's not happiness.

'His situation is something he has to come to grips with all by himself.  All I can do is sit and wait and hope, and aim to be the safety net...'
He's just drifting. Why not bring it forward? In fact you already did but he went back into denial - I think a professional would bring him out. Nobody has worked out a safe solution to this where the spouse is enmeshed. Everyone is taken down by the pwBPD. How would my brother feel if he asks me in 10 years time, did you know about this? - Yeah I knew everything. It isn't rational to keep it a secret from him and I can't do that. My clinical psych agrees it isn't rational. The longer the situation is left, the worse it gets. I'm going where you went but with an additional strategy to prevent him from telling his wife. As my psych pointed out, even then there is a chance he will have a loss of judgment and tell his wife 'Look what my sister did to me'. But he told me to be brave and persist with this.

You followed the general advice recommended for situations like this and yet  are still kept waiting after 17yrs for a breakthrough. The shining moment was when you told your brother about his wife's mental illness, and he knew you were telling the truth. The problem was that he told his wife despite being warned, all hell broke loose and he went back into the delusion. That this information was delivered by you alone (family member) was part of the problem I think. Others had similar issues:

If your son is similar to mine, then a heart-to-heart really will not occur, I expect that it will be perceived as a 'lecture to a bad child'. In my case, the wedge would have been even deeper and  wider. You ARE 'losing' him; but in my opinion, the only way you can 'save' your relationship is to let him go and pray that he comes back. I really believe that any intervention on your part will be perceived as interference. Do keep in mind that everything (and I mean everything) you say to him will be retold to her and she will re-invent your motives, intent and even words...the person to 'talk sense to your son' cannot be you. It must be someone else (if you are lucky)

I am reminded of my first therapist, who had a specialty in treating BPD cases... He told me about his son, about the same age as yours, who got involved with a girl who was clearly BPD. He warned him, but the son chose to marry anyway. Five years later they were divorced. The point is that the kid didn't listen to his parent who knows BPD better more than nearly everybody else. Why would ours listen to us?

I'm hoping that by having a clinical psych present he will not perceive this information as an attack on his wife (which will hurt his pride) but instead embrace it as a major effort to help him and his wife.  He will be invited to the house as normal but there will be no prior warning of the purpose or that a psych will be present. This does carry some shock value, since he will not be expecting anyone else to be there, but if he is given prior warning it leaves open an opportunity for him to talk to his wife. So I've decided to have a clinical psych present (not cult specialist), without the consent of my brother. I'm waiting to hear back.

SIL doesn't visit the house alone anymore and she's finding it increasingly difficult to attend with my brother (he makes excuses for her). She has intense anxiety when she does attend and I looked at her once as she came in and her eyes were black and 'dancing' - presumably fear. I have to go ahead with the above because there is no way I will be able to get my brother to a psychologist's office.

I wish you all the best for a positive outcome.

Thanks! I think there is an underappreciation for what the sisters go through, we live it, we are left to problem-solve and it hurts so much to see the changes in our brothers. I guess they are lucky we care that much for them. To endure the turbulence so they can be pulled out of this.
Harri - sorry about before, stress overload (it doesn't take much at the moment)

[Skip]

Can you tell us a little bit about the clinical psych?

PhD? Treated BPD in a university setting?

[Jareth89]

Can you tell us a little bit about the clinical psych?
PhD? Treated BPD in a university setting?

Are you referring to the clinical psych I talk to over the phone about this case who is encouraging me, mentioned above? Yes he has a PhD, treats PD's, extensive experience working in the NHS and also works privately. All of the clinical psychs I have seen in the past few months have PhD's and have worked in the NHS for 15+yrs. The psych didn't come up with this plan - I did, but I talked to him about it and he has been a source of encouragement for me. I was supposed to be doing this with the exit counsellor/interventionist because I thought that was my only option, but I really want a clinical psychologist present - that's my first choice. I'm still talking to people to see what can be done.

[Jareth89]

The clinical psych I talk to over the phone will only see my brother if he comes to his office or calls him - neither of these options are plausible. He suggested the possibility of seeking out a clinical psychologist who is also trained in family therapy as a possible way to intervene without needing his consent.