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Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits. Practicing lawyer, Senior Family Mediator, and former Licensed Clinical Social Worker with twelve years’ experience and an expert on navigating the Family Court process.
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Author Topic: I met with the "other man" for 1.5hrs  (Read 1205 times)
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« on: December 02, 2019, 04:37:05 AM »

So... OM and I are at my kids school Christmas fair. He corners me for a chat.

He started off saying that he realised he owed me a response to my mail. Then he said "oh it was all very random, unplanned and poorly thought out, I re-read it afterwards and I can see it was total nonsense"... To which I pointed out that given he'd chosen different fonts, gone to the effort of pdf'ing it all it didn't strike me as unplanned, spontaneous and total nonsense. I said... What I think is that you're now backtracking massively.

He claimed that he wrote it directed at his W who is petrified of him running off with my W. He claimed that he has no intentions of being with my W and claims that all my W wants is to be a family again.

Most of what he said didn't tie up with what I have either seen in reality or read going on between the 2 of them. I allowed him the opportunity to speak but didn't allow him the opportunity to talk nonsense to me. I pointed out that W was free to leave, she'd always been free to leave. I pointed out that his affair with W had little to do with the D negotiations, however that I would need things from his regarding the kids. Although he protested that he had no plans to be with EnablerW I highlighted that if he thought he'd be a come home and put his feet up on the sofa kinda Dad like he was in his previous relationship, that wasn't going to cut the mustard regarding being a guardian for our kids. I needed him to show my kids what it was to be a responsible adult.

The conversation was about 1.5hrs long and pretty much monopolised the time at the fair which was annoying. I sensed he was trying to manipulate me into his way of thinking about everything and there was a thick sludge of inconsistency in what he was saying. All I can hope for is more clarity and greater honesty... There still seems to be little honesty when it comes to admitting there is something going on though which is a shame.

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FaithHopeLove
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« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2019, 05:15:51 AM »

Did this conversation benefit you or your children in any way?
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« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2019, 06:07:07 AM »

It benefited me in a way that I was able to stay super chilled in a situation where I don't think many others would have been. I benefited from being able to see a little bit clearer seeing through some of his attempts to shift my narrative. It could benefit the children in as far as I pointed out that he has responsibilities towards the children. It's not just a case of him 'getting' my W, she comes with children which he will need to be responsible in part for. I pointed him down a road where he doesn't get to have his cake and eat it... that said, pretty doubtful whether or not he'll opt to take path.

The problem is, I can have all these conversations and emails etc etc but him and my W will essentially do what they want to do anyway. So what can I say to him that would make any meaningful difference going forward? The least I got out of it was that I challenged his twisted thinking with a heck of a lot of evidence and examples.

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« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2019, 06:59:46 AM »

Excerpt
The problem is, I can have all these conversations and emails etc etc but him and my W will essentially do what they want to do anyway. So what can I say to him that would make any meaningful difference going forward? The least I got out of it was that I challenged his twisted thinking with a heck of a lot of evidence and examples.


You are right. You can't control what he and your wife do. I doubt OM is going to change his way of thinking either no matter how much you challenge it.

All you can do is advocate for your kids as best as you can.
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« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2019, 07:25:38 AM »


Why not take him at his word as spokesman for your wife.

Hey hunny, your OM said you want to be a family again with me, so I'm not going to talk about divorce anymore.  So glad to get clarity on this.

Then move on with your life. 

Enabler

I don't think any of this (what she or he says) is actually about divorce.  If she wanted a divorce and if he wanted a divorce/if they really wanted each other...that's been on the table for a while.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2019, 07:52:03 AM »

As much as I agree with you FF there is momentum and I cannot deny it's direction.

One thing I pointed out to OM when he made the statement about my W's desire to be a family again was that her actions don't reflect this. Deceit about everything, having a relationship with another man, being out all the time is not conducive to her getting what she supposedly wants. IF she was doing these things out of fear (fear of guilt and shame maybe) then it was a fear drummed up by him based on complete nonsense.

What do you think that it's about FF?

 
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« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2019, 08:31:43 AM »


On a fundamental level, I think us "nons" trying to rationalize their actions is an exercise doomed to futility.

They live in their world and we live in ours.  Their are parts of your/their story that put your case on steroids (the religious part mainly).

Basically they have to convince themselves that "this" is ordained by God and they also have to "present" to the world that "this" isn't "this".

Think back to general advice.  What are you contributing to the momentum?  If you like the momentum, keep doing it.  If you don't stop.

They won't be controlled or figured out...or accountable..or  really anything.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2019, 08:48:34 AM »

Basically they have to convince themselves that "this" is ordained by God and they also have to "present" to the world that "this" isn't "this".

OM and W for that matter have a habit of making everything special/exceptional/supernatural... I guess we can all do that, I don't think I am but am I doing it by suggesting my W has BPD traits. Specialness allows ourselves to act differently. In my W and Om's case it has given them license to continue a "friendship" at best, a "full blow affair" at worst. Evidence would suggest the latter. My W and OM have clearly sought advice before but these advisers didn't 'grasp' the specialness of their situation. 'Love must be tough' suggests a similar thing. 

OM asked me whether or not I believed in angels... I paused... he then suggested I didn't... to which I responded that I had never thought about it. I said that God communicates to people in different ways. I hear God when I go to church often with a very specific problem or concern, weirdly the sermon seems to answer that question. Or occasionally I use randombibleverses.com to get a more immediate response... and here's the thing... I don't need to shut one eye and squint a little bit to get an appropriate message. I don't have to discount biblical advice and and don't have to filter it... it's just right. I mentioned that I'd listened to every single online sermon from the church they go to and I just cannot fathom at all how they have come to the messages they have come to, how that word has led my W and him to behave in the way they have behaved... in fact, I've heard the opposite.

They can try as they might cognitively push away the gilt onto God thus giving them some moral justification for their actions, but it involves shutting one eye, squinting and standing on one leg.

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« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2019, 12:27:28 PM »

In short, he tried to get the the three other adults to put their realities on the table and discuss compromise and the "three" shut him down, unequivocally, with their own agendas and widened the divide.

It was an ambitious idea. Not even sure the divorce attorneys would be behind it. But it does tell you something about the 4 people involved and their priorities.

So what can I say to him that would make any meaningful difference going forward?

I know this was intended as a rhetorical question... the advice from many in the prior threads was to just take a baby step in - to listen and let him know that you were open to finding a resolution that is best for the six children. On the flip side, the advice was not to shoot him down

least I got out of it was that I challenged his twisted thinking with a heck of a lot of evidence and examples.

He was backtracking because he got slammed by everyone - your wife, his wife, and you.

You're angry about the situation. Understandably.  

At year four, however how does that help anyone? How does that help the children?

Arguing felt good... but it took the place of making the point that you were willing to cooperate with him when there is the ability to cooperate... to do things in the best interest of the children.

Do you see that?

As much as I agree with you FF there is momentum and I cannot deny it's direction.

Doesn't this mean that the fight was more important to you than the solution?
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« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2019, 01:00:55 PM »

They can try as they might cognitively push away the gilt onto God thus giving them some moral justification for their actions, but it involves shutting one eye, squinting and standing on one leg.

Why do you care so much about what they think about themselves? Why do you care about how they rationalize their actions with their faith? Maybe their discernment is from God. Maybe their discernment has more to do with the pizza they ate last night.

There is a lot of weaponizing of "faith" and "truth" and it is not helping anyone.

Why not get off this debate of who is has more "faith" and more "truth".  You scoff at the "believe in angles comment" but you say the same types of things. You four can argue and defend your righteousness for a 100 years and not get agreement - why try.

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« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2019, 01:01:09 PM »

One possibility I've been considering over the past few days is that, after four years, the "bloom is off the rose."
 
If that's the case, for OM and EnablerW, what now?

OMWife is "terrified that OM will leave her" for EnablerW -- but hasn't that already happened, except for a divorce action?

EnablerW appears frozen -- can't go back, won't go forward.

The relationship has been defined in such terms of specialness and "angelicism" that somehow it isn't a sin, but rather destiny.

Is it possible that their Special Relationship is in trouble and they are now fighting Destiny?

What a cluster.

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« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2019, 01:09:17 PM »

I think Skip's insight to this is good.

I saw something in this. Whether or not he is being truthful, I can't tell. I know he can't speak for your wife, but he can speak for himself:

He claimed that he wrote it directed at his W who is petrified of him running off with my W. He claimed that he has no intentions of being with my W and claims that all my W wants is to be a family again.



His wife and you are in similar situations- neither wants their marriage to end, and so they may be enabling this affair by not asking the spouses to make a choice.

People with PD's tend to pair with enablers/co-dependents. If this is the case for OM, he too is in a "has his cake and eat it too" situation. He has the benefit of a wife at home, doing wifely things, doesn't have to pay the financial penalty of divorce, and he has a romance on the side.

I don't know what your wife wants with him, but he stated he has no intentions of "being with her " and his wife doesn't want the marriage to end.

Maybe you read "being with her" as he doesn't want to have an affair with her. I read it as he has no intention of breaking his marriage and marrying your wife. He has it pretty good as it is now. So does your wife.

This could continue indefinitely until one of you puts your foot down and states " I want to be in a monogamous relationship. If you wish to remain married to me then you need to choose to be monogamous with me".

That's not about controlling the other person. That's a value, a boundary. The other person can then decide what they want to do, but they can not have the benefits of marriage without the commitment. This of course risks them choosing to leave the marriage. But I think it is quite revealing that OM doesn't want divorce and marriage to your wife. He may just want the affair.

But this idea has been discussed before and isn't on your agenda, and it appears it also isn't on the OM's wife either.

 
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« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2019, 01:18:02 PM »

This could continue indefinitely until one of you puts your foot down and states " I want to be in a monogamous relationship. 

I think this right.

Most affairs happen because the underlying marriage has failed and the affair is a patch. In the end the marriage and the affair crumble.  There are exceptions, but this does not sound like one of them.

You children have sent half their lives with this as their normal. They day to day interactions, the contempt and resentments, they lack of outward love is what is imprinting on these children.
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« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2019, 01:31:43 PM »

You children have sent half their lives with this as their normal. They day to day interactions, the contempt and resentments, they lack of outward love is what is imprinting on these children.

This describes my childhood. If all you have as a role model for a marriage is witnessing a cold, aloof and angry mother giving the cold shoulder to your father, this is not healthy.

Perhaps that’s why it was so irresistible when someone put me on a pedestal and told me in flowery language how special I was.
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« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2019, 01:41:33 PM »

This guy is in the catbird seat. He’s admitted he doesn’t want to move in with your wife, and he gets the goodies of this G-d ordained affair for free, while his wife keeps the home fires burning. Your wife may not realize it, but she’s being taken for a ride. He’s probably seen enough about her that he doesn’t want the affair to progress to marriage and supporting her and the children. It sounds like he’s not doing too good of a job on that front in his own marriage.

But his position is precarious. It could all come crashing down, should your wife press him for a deeper commitment.
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« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2019, 01:56:05 PM »

This describes my childhood. If all you have as a role model for a marriage is witnessing a cold, aloof and angry mother giving the cold shoulder to your father, this is not healthy.

Perhaps that’s why it was so irresistible when someone put me on a pedestal and told me in flowery language how special I was.

This story appears 100's of times on this site.
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« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2019, 02:23:31 PM »

Since OM and EnablerWife won't admit the affair is sexual, they may say that their marriages ARE monogamous. The value statement/boundary then has to be clear that it is a marriage that is physically, emotionally, perhaps also spiritually -- one in which the intimacy is between husband and wife and not outside the marriage.

Enabler, are you able to state such a value?
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« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2019, 04:02:46 PM »

Skip, initially I asked for clarification. I did not shoot down his idea. When we spoke I embraced the idea of telling truths, I genuinely believe that he will be as surprised to hear my truth (with evidence) as me to hear his. He’s been lied to extensively as well. I didn’t mock his idea of angels, more said that I hadn’t thought about it and experience god in other ways. I ‘waste’ a lot of time trying to work out the narrative and especially the religious angle, frankly because it matters. The religious specialness of their relationship is the glue that holds it together. Without the glue it goes... does it make my wife fall instantly in love with me again... no, of course not.

Cat and GaGrl, I can definitely see this. Tonight for example me and W have a brief conversation, one was about getting D6 a proper bed for Christmas (she is still in a cot bed because this D has gone on for so long and no one knows what bed requirements are going to be for post divorce housing). W says “well we’ll have to sell it if it’s not needed”. That’s posting in the direction of divorce. Then, I get her to look at a mortgage statement, we have an interest only mortgage maturing in Dec20, the bank have sent a questionnaire asking if we are on target to pay off the capital. W says “can we get a new interest only mortgage when this one expires in Dec?” That’s coming from a world where we’re not divorced by the end of next year. Part of her sees this happening, part of her doesn’t.

Maybe you are right about OM, he seemed adamant that he was not divorcing his own W, and seems adamant that he didn’t want to marry or live with mine.

So Skip, what amount of ‘truth telling’ or wide-mind thinking is going to bring this to any reasonable conclusion? He was hardly likely to come to the table and say “hi, I’d like to have my cake and eat it”

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« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2019, 04:32:04 PM »

The other thing to consider is next Monday we have the first financial mediation session where we’re supposed to hammer out the financial agreement. Then in the new year we meet with someone to discuss telling the children. Things are happening that will bring fantasy and reality together. If that reality is that we’re not married anymore then by its very nature one of the legs has gone... and if that means OM is tested for his willingness to step in OR as he suggests stay on the bench drinking the coolade then that also brings that delusion to reality as well.

Although one of the 4 of us definitely doesn’t want a divorce, I’ve clearly done something to push the agenda along and not stopped it from happening. Now FF would argue that I should stop it from happening, but I don’t want to force someone to be with me, my wife is free to leave... and that has to trump all other values about marriage.

Is the question more about how to approach further attempts to stall the process in which case that would be the time to say “I want a marriage not a milking stool”. That time is when we tell the kids.

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« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2019, 04:45:00 PM »

Now FF would argue that I should stop it from happening, but I don’t want to force someone to be with me, my wife is free to leave... and that has to trump all other values about marriage.


I would argue you should not participate/enable something to happen, that you don't want to happen and is against your values.

Especially when your participation is not required for it to happen.

Best,

FF
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You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2019, 01:07:20 AM »

On a fundamental level, I think us "nons" trying to rationalize their actions is an exercise doomed to futility.

They live in their world and we live in ours. ... They won't be controlled or figured out...or accountable..or really anything.

Why are you trying to reason with people who, essentially, aren't listening to reason?  A comment made in other posts is that it's simply not long term productive to get into these circular arguments that go nowhere.  What do you think?  Did he get anything productive out of all that talking?  Did you?

I doubt it.  So instead ponder what would truly be more productive of your time and energy.  Probably then you can decide upon some more appropriate boundaries.  Boundaries... since others may not respect boundaries, it is therefore up to you to set your own boundaries.  For example:  If you do or don't do ___ then I will do or not do ___.
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« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2019, 02:56:33 AM »

Thanks ForeverDad,

I'm not sure it's as simple as being able to tell immediately whether or not our conversation has yielded anything. I'd imagine he has some very entrenched views, those views maybe based on things that my W may have told him, or things that he assumed given what she had told him. There were certainly things that he didn't know or had assumed she might have done. For example we talked about her work for the church and work in prison, he suggested I didn't support that at all. I asked him it would be reasonable to 'have the conversation with me' not necessarily ask my permission, but ask whether or not I'd support her with it (since it was pretty apparent that the training and ongoing commitment would require my support), he said yeah, that sounds reasonable. I enlightened him that no such conversation had been had and yet I supported her training and work anyway. I think he assumed that a certain level of civil communication occurs out of common courtesy. Could he go back to thinking what he wants or believe my W who may claim that these conversations did occur, I don't know... but, the facts I know are on the table.

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« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2019, 04:17:20 AM »

what amount of ‘truth telling’ or wide-mind thinking is going to bring this to any reasonable conclusion? He was hardly likely to come to the table and say “hi, I’d like to have my cake and eat it”

I have been following along with this conversation and thought I would contribute my two cents about 'truth telling'.

In my experience we all, occasionally, treat something that may be of relative importance as though it was of ultimate significance.   Sometimes, it's money,  sometimes, it's career, or sex or prestige.     I have been taught in my faith tradition that while all these things are worthwhile, they are worthwhile only to the degree that the contribute to our becoming better, more compassionate and more responsible people.    We are accustomed to regarding honesty as possessing the highest value possible.    We justify the unkind remark with the observation that it is true; we make a virtue of telling it like it is, regardless of the effects of this self centered integrity.   For me,  I understand that while precious, honesty is of value only insofar as it helps humans live together in peace.   I believe that scrupulous honesty can damage a relationship and that the higher value is to protect a person's feelings of self worth and love.      I think that if 'religion' does not lead to caring for the dignity of other human beings, does not lead to a willingness to protect another's feelings even at the cost of being 'honest', that there is something lacking in the notion of what G-d wants.     Honesty in the service of compassion and growth, even if the truth is painful is a good thing.    Honesty at the expense of another human's feelings simply to air one's own viewpoint is not.

So, from my perspective, it is indeed a good thing that OM is not likely to come to the table and say I want my cake and to eat it to.    that would add more to damage to an already incredibly damaging situation.     While it could feel incredibly validating to hear that,  I believe in the long run that would only add more pain to all of the people involved in your situation.

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« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2019, 06:06:46 AM »

I agree with Ducks on the value of telling the truth.

However, I wonder why you are even considering "truth telling" with a man who is cheating with your wife. Truth isn't even on the table here.

Why should he even admit to having his cake and eating it too? He has it. He's in the best position here ( morals aside). He has a wife, and he has your wife- with no strings attached cause she's married to you. If not for the moral side of this situation ( which isn't on the table- no matter what he says about God. This one (adultery)is on stone tablets. So I'm with Forever Dad on this- why try to reason with the unreasonable. His religious "justification" is just that)- this guy's got it made.

Trying to change someone's thinking isn't really feasible. I wouldn't consider that a goal of the discussion- trying to shed truth in there about you. This has been a focus of yours- how to be the moral one in all of this but trying to change anyone's thinking or perception of you isn't often possible. Rather, consider why act morally? It's for you. Your boundary, your self concept, no matter what anyone else thinks.  

The only value to you in this discussion is what you could take from it. One value I see is that you kept your composure. That's good because it reflects your own self esteem to you. You didn't act on emotion and do something you would feel bad about. The other is the information that he has no intentions of marrying your wife. If this is true, it shows you that he doesn't have intentions of moving out of the position he is in now- towards marriage.

As Cat says, my guess is that as your wife moves towards divorce and the idea that she is available to him becomes more real, she may press for more. That would be a force to change the status quo. OM may do that too, or when pressed for commitment, decide that isn't for him. Meanwhile, as things are, this isn't happening. Your position is still in limbo. It may stay that way until one of the 4 people involved make a change.
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« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2019, 07:12:21 AM »

Enabler

There is "strategic thought" going on in this thread.  An example of this is Forever Dad's thoughts on spending time reasoning with unreasonable people.  

How you "tactically" work this out can vary based on the situation and how you want to tie the immediate goal to your "strategic" goal of not wasting time reasoning with unreasonable people.

I'm worried that your strategic goal (not getting divorced) and your "tactics" (providing financial details and meeting with divorce personnel) are NOT ALIGNED.

I'm obviously in the not get divorced/don't do divorce things camp.

Others, fair enough to say majority, are in the "your marriage is dead, much better to make a child care deal better than what courts are likely to impose"  (assuming your wife forces the divorce)

What I see and hear is someone (you) that says they are against divorce/doesn't want it, yet for some reason is "going along" with what your wife is asking of you and doesn't have a child care deal to show for it

Enabler, do I have this right?  Is there or is there not a written child care agreement in place?

If not, what on earth are you hoping to gain by going along with your wife's requests/demands?

Kinda going to shift thoughts here to relative values and some questions.

Evaluate what you think life would be like in a 50/50 divorce.  Come up with a number that represents hours spent per week with your kids.

Then compare that number to.

1.  Amount of time I spend with my kids in an average week now (status quo).
2.  Amount of time I expect to spend with my kids in an average week of 50/50 divorce with my Mom heavily engaged in helping.  (assume your differences have been overcome/dealt with)
3.  Amount of time spent with kids in a situation the court would likely impose with no parenting agreement in place.

Somehow I'm hoping to see "a number" that represents the risk/reward of each pathway you can choose.

Please don't see this as me "giving" up on the values argument/point of view.  Please see this as me deliberately trying to engage the rational "economics" part of your brain and analyze the situation from that point of view.

Personally I'm very curious to see the comparison of time you get now (status quo) versus 50/50.

Best,

FF

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