Ubpdh earning cheap points with d16

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Over the weekend we had a guest who came to see the new house. While preparing for the visit we went grocery shopping with ubpdh, myself and d16. While driving the topic of cannabis came up. Whenever appropriate, I psycho-educate her about the dangers of using cannabis such as loss of motivation, inhibiting the prefrontal cortex from fully developing, activating receptors in the brain that can mimic schizophrenia type 2 and so on. In some instances it’s also a gait wait to harsher drugs. Both; myself and ubpdh have “addiction gene”, we both lost grandparents to alcoholism and had encounters with substance abuse. I have been abstaining for a very long time, while ubpdh had his slips. He has been off cocaine for over a year now.
While driving and talking, he started telling my daughter that I was lying and there were no long term repercussions of using the drugs. We went on saying he does not want me to lie to our daughter and started overtly glamorizing the drug, which of course infuriated me. On the way home we stopped by the liquor store to get some wine for the party. As I was sending out the email, he went inside and d16 tagged along. Prior to the visit to liquor store she went on to say: “ everyone I know tries and drinks alcohol at the parties, or worse, does shrooms and other things. I don’t do it. But I am very curious and want to try alcohol.” I was adamant about not allowing her to do that as it is not age appropriate, healthy for her, shows poor parenting. Ubpdh started arguing that it is better she does it at home, then tries elsewhere. By the time we got to the liquor store I thought the conversation was over and I made myself clear. To my surprise, when we got home and I started to unload the groceries I noted a cooler we don’t normally buy. One small can was siting there. I made a mental note, and hid it in the furthest end of the kitchen. Once the guest arrived I surfed dinner and called for d16 to attend. She declined from her room. Once the party concluded and I started to put things away I realized that the cooler was missing, only to find d16 asleep in her bedroom with the empty can beside her. I started raising my voice and ubpdh stormed in, saying “you are in deep trouble for yelling at her, I allowed it.” When I started telling him that it is unacceptable to give minor Alcohol he turned and walked out on me. I proceeded talking to d16 why she went on to quietly steal the can I drink it. She started sharing her woes of being lonely and not having friends who want to spent time with her. Which only brought more concern with possible onset of unhealthy coping mechanisms. I contacted our family psychologist immediately and am now waiting for emergency session to deal with this issue. While talking to d16, ubpdh stormed into the bedroom, yanked the blanket and the pillow and announced that “if you dare come near me, it will have serious physical repercussions for you, also, check your messages” with that he slammed the door. Here is the transcript of the messages:
“  8 days do not show your face near me
Do not call me
Do not talk to me under any circumstances
Do not look in my direction
Time starts now
Any misbehaviours will have devastating effect
Do not even conform that you have
Read this“
I have not come near him for the past 24 hrs, and been trying to work with d16 and stay close to help her with the trauma. She was present when the physical threats to me were made, which will undoubtedly have an effect on her coping and development.
I also realize that this game can not be won, as the house never looses. I will follow clinical recommendations to the T, but how can I ensure that my child doesn’t get influenced by a mentally ill person who is trying to score brownie points by facilitating and encouraging substance abuse. In fact, he never stopped to question and find out why she had the desire to drink in a first place (because she wanted to escape and distract from reality), realize that it is an offence to buy liquor for minors. This is a hard no to me, I will do everything in my power to see my daughter through this challenge and ensure that she realizes that drugs are bad! (Why do I even need to explain this to a 45 yo man?.) alcohol isn’t the answer. I am avoiding his company, he is cussing around me, so I am being gentle with myself and don’t allow the loonie bin anywhere near myself.

[snowglobe]

Over the weekend we had a guest who came to see the new house. While preparing for the visit we went grocery shopping with ubpdh, myself and d16. While driving the topic of cannabis came up. Whenever appropriate, I psycho-educate her about the dangers of using cannabis such as loss of motivation, inhibiting the prefrontal cortex from fully developing, activating receptors in the brain that can mimic schizophrenia type 2 and so on. In some instances it’s also a gait wait to harsher drugs. Both; myself and ubpdh have “addiction gene”, we both lost grandparents to alcoholism and had encounters with substance abuse. I have been abstaining for a very long time, while ubpdh had his slips. He has been off cocaine for over a year now.
While driving and talking, he started telling my daughter that I was lying and there were no long term repercussions of using the drugs. We went on saying he does not want me to lie to our daughter and started overtly glamorizing the drug, which of course infuriated me. On the way home we stopped by the liquor store to get some wine for the party. As I was sending out the email, he went inside and d16 tagged along. Prior to the visit to liquor store she went on to say: “ everyone I know tries and drinks alcohol at the parties, or worse, does shrooms and other things. I don’t do it. But I am very curious and want to try alcohol.” I was adamant about not allowing her to do that as it is not age appropriate, healthy for her, shows poor parenting. Ubpdh started arguing that it is better she does it at home, then tries elsewhere. By the time we got to the liquor store I thought the conversation was over and I made myself clear. To my surprise, when we got home and I started to unload the groceries I noted a cooler we don’t normally buy. One small can was siting there. I made a mental note, and hid it in the furthest end of the kitchen. Once the guest arrived I surfed dinner and called for d16 to attend. She declined from her room. Once the party concluded and I started to put things away I realized that the cooler was missing, only to find d16 asleep in her bedroom with the empty can beside her. I started raising my voice and ubpdh stormed in, saying “you are in deep trouble for yelling at her, I allowed it.” When I started telling him that it is unacceptable to give minor Alcohol he turned and walked out on me. I proceeded talking to d16 why she went on to quietly steal the can I drink it. She started sharing her woes of being lonely and not having friends who want to spent time with her. Which only brought more concern with possible onset of unhealthy coping mechanisms. I contacted our family psychologist immediately and am now waiting for emergency session to deal with this issue. While talking to d16, ubpdh stormed into the bedroom, yanked the blanket and the pillow and announced that “if you dare come near me, it will have serious physical repercussions for you, also, check your messages” with that he slammed the door. Here is the transcript of the messages:
“  8 days do not show your face near me
Do not call me
Do not talk to me under any circumstances
Do not look in my direction
Time starts now
Any misbehaviours will have devastating effect
Do not even conform that you have
Read this“
I have not come near him for the past 24 hrs, and been trying to work with d16 and stay close to help her with the trauma. She was present when the physical threats to me were made, which will undoubtedly have an effect on her coping and development.
I also realize that this game can not be won, as the house never looses. I will follow clinical recommendations to the T, but how can I ensure that my child doesn’t get influenced by a mentally ill person who is trying to score brownie points by facilitating and encouraging substance abuse. In fact, he never stopped to question and find out why she had the desire to drink in a first place (because she wanted to escape and distract from reality), realize that it is an offence to buy liquor for minors. This is a hard no to me, I will do everything in my power to see my daughter through this challenge and ensure that she realizes that drugs are bad! (Why do I even need to explain this to a 45 yo man?.) alcohol isn’t the answer. I am avoiding his company, he is cussing around me, so I am being gentle with myself and don’t allow the loonie bin anywhere near myself.

[snowglobe]

Am I missing a larger picture- am I contributing to the formation of the triangle? Am I pouring gasoline over open fire? I don’t want to create an environment of apprehension and stand off for the children and myself, but this straw broke the camel’s back. Having ubpdh invalidate valid parental concerns (interest in drugs and alcohol), encourage and facilitate a purchase of the substance when one parent clearly defined limits and finally making physical threats in front of the children, are all extremely concerning, as in isolation as well as in conjunction.

[snowglobe]

What steps need to be taken when this behaviour occurs? I did not acknowledge or validate him in any way, this “storming in” was the last one of our communication.

[Cat Familiar]

You are attempting to coparent with someone who only wants to be an authoritarian ruler. He doesn’t want your input.

This seems to be a recurrent pattern.

[snowglobe]

You are attempting to coparent with someone who only wants to be an authoritarian ruler. He doesn’t want your input.

This seems to be a recurrent pattern.

Ok, how can this be worked out in the context of this situation?

[GaGrl]

Ok, how can this be worked out in the context of this situation?

Short answer...it depends.

That is, you need to look to yourself. He will do what he does.

Have you radically accepted that "he will do what he does"? If so, there are tools and strategies to help you move toward a workable co-parenting relationship.

If not (if you still think you can control his behavior or that you have the power to change him), there is different work to be done.

Have you spoken to your T about this latest incident?

Is there anything lately that might have triggered him?

[snowglobe]

Short answer...it depends.

That is, you need to look to yourself. He will do what he does.

Have you radically accepted that "he will do what he does"? If so, there are tools and strategies to help you move toward a workable co-parenting relationship.

If not (if you still think you can control his behavior or that you have the power to change him), there is different work to be done.

Have you spoken to your T about this latest incident?

Is there anything lately that might have triggered him?

I have radically accepted he does what he does... with a consequence. There has to be a logical answer effect of purposefully buying a minor alcoholic beverage. Several things come to mind- one speaking to the family clinician that dealt with our family, two - having police officer speak to unpdh and explain the consequences should this happen again.
I have not spoken about this incident to my T, due to my move I’m in between the clinic locations.
Lately, being roughly 3.5 years it the crypto currency rates that fluctuate daily. When it goes up he is in superb mood, when it goes down he is difficult to be around. After showing the mood ubpd’s calendar to a clinician that works with our family (child, youth and family) he commented that it seems like a Conor is diagnosis of bpd and borderline type 2... which he would be reluctant to take upon. Now, moving to more important issue- I need to help my children make sense of their reality and create healthy abs age appropriate boundaries, which ubpdh makes difficult to do.

[Cat Familiar]

Are you willing to talk to your clinician or ask a police officer to speak with him?

[snowglobe]

Are you willing to talk to your clinician or ask a police officer to speak with him?

It’s been done already (sharing what happened with a clinician), I’m now waiting for him to make a visit to speak to the children directly. I am iffy on calling the police after no action was taken in a prior incident.

[formflier]

What did the clinician say?

If there is no police response, then you've only "wasted" the few minutes it takes to make a phone call..right?


Best,

FF

[formflier]

Just read the thread again.

Please don't hear me minimizing the alcohol.  Please do hear me raising DV concern.

Your hubby has assaulted you and your daughter.  In the process of trying to prevent/deal with your husband providing alcohol to your daughter, your husband physically threatened you again.

I realize he doesn't assault you or your daughter every time he threatens to, yet I wonder how you know when it's just a threat or an actual assault will take place again.

Snowglobe

This has been a powder keg for a long time.  You both know the house didn't fix "it" and your hubby appears to be quite upset about the house not fixing "it".

So...how he going to release the pressure he has?  

 

Very dangerous situation!

Best,

FF

[snowglobe]

Just read the thread again.

Please don't hear me minimizing the alcohol.  Please do hear me raising DV concern.

Your hubby has assaulted you and your daughter.  In the process of trying to prevent/deal with your husband providing alcohol to your daughter, your husband physically threatened you again.

I realize he doesn't assault you or your daughter every time he threatens to, yet I wonder how you know when it's just a threat or an actual assault will take place again.

Snowglobe

This has been a powder keg for a long time.  You both know the house didn't fix "it" and your hubby appears to be quite upset about the house not fixing "it".

So...how he going to release the pressure he has?  

 

Very dangerous situation!

Best,

FF

I hear you, Ff, and am very aware of it, especially over the weekend to now. He had gotten himself in a very serious predicament and whole lot of debt, which he can potentially wipe out in one sell, but chooses not to. I have not come across him since the Bitcoin was steadily declining, now to 67something usd. Which means, as you correctly identified the pressure cooker is to ticking. He will need to find the release somewhere... I just hope it won’t be kids... clinician is aware and wants to get a full picture from d16 to give recommendations, I understand his hesitation, given the histories. He talked to me about “culture and alcohol” and how he is cautious to make a mountain out of the molehill, simply because he wants to speak ideally to all of us. It isn’t feasible with ubpdh’s splitting, so he is focusing on me and the kids. For a moment, his advice is counter influence the children with psycho education and refraining to give any negative feedback regarding their father. As another parent I have a right to not allow the children to drink, but for that I can not reply on their distorted father, I need to be with them 24/7.

[formflier]

I just hope it won’t be kids... 

So, your plan to protect yourself and your children from further assaults is hope?  Do I have this right?

Best,

FF

[snowglobe]

So, your plan to protect yourself and your children from further assaults is hope?  Do I have this right?

Best,

FF

My parents are in the house, I will surely call police if he does anything. Meanwhile I have the funds put away for the emergency exit and a bag at my friend’s house. If I have to run, I will get to a safe place and then call a police. Having a consistent message, that’s is followed through with an action- is my safety plan. If he just rants- we stay in our rooms, if he threatens I exit his presence, if he charges at any of us- I call the authorities regardless of who it is this time. The ideal case is to get him mandatorily psycho evaluated, which can be done only by the police.

[formflier]

Why not call police based on a threat?  I suggest this because we know...we know "they aren't just threats".

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

You may or may not be contributing to the triangle but it's there due to the alliance between your H and your D.

You fell in love at 17. Your H was a 27 year old adult, but why would a grown man want a 17 year old? Unless it was an emotional match. I had no clue at 17 what being an adult was like, neither did you. How would you know then? You know now, but to your D, her Daddy probably seems cool.

It's teen age behavior to sneak alcohol and your H is acting like a teen age boy with your teen age D. In his mind, he's her pal, not her parent.

But he's not a teen age boy, he's a grown man who gave alcohol to a minor and that's illegal. Maybe the law won't do anything but that's on them and you don't know what they will do. You can still call, At some point, your H needs to be held accountable for his behavior, but so far, nobody in the family seems willing to go to that extent. because it risks the support he offers.

I'm sorry that this is happening. I feel for you really, it's a tough situation.

[snowglobe]

Why not call police based on a threat?  I suggest this because we know...we know "they aren't just threats".

Best,

FF

Ff,
His texts to me, the ones I lined up, do they sound threatening enough to you? Chances, if any of you find it concerning, maybe police will act. I’m not sure if d16 will substantiate the threats, since she is almost due to get her car to drive alone. I need physical evidence

[snowglobe]

You may or may not be contributing to the triangle but it's there due to the alliance between your H and your D.

You fell in love at 17. Your H was a 27 year old adult, but why would a grown man want a 17 year old? Unless it was an emotional match. I had no clue at 17 what being an adult was like, neither did you. How would you know then? You know now, but to your D, her Daddy probably seems cool.

It's teen age behavior to sneak alcohol and your H is acting like a teen age boy with your teen age D. In his mind, he's her pal, not her parent.

But he's not a teen age boy, he's a grown man who gave alcohol to a minor and that's illegal. Maybe the law won't do anything but that's on them and you don't know what they will do. You can still call, At some point, your H needs to be held accountable for his behavior, but so far, nobody in the family seems willing to go to that extent. because it risks the support he offers.

I'm sorry that this is happening. I feel for you really, it's a tough situation.

Thank you Wendy,
I’m still waiting for the clinician to speak to d16. I’m very concerned for the long term effect ubpdh has on children. I don’t come near him, as the explicit threats are now taken seriously. Absolutely zero contact. He walks in- I don’t acknowledge his presence, without looking standoffish I quietly exit. I don’t try to placate anymore, I just want to be safe.

[formflier]

You can always take what you have to a local lawyer, perhaps same one you have used before.  Get them to help you "package" your information and submit it.

Isn't it time for "light to shine" on his actions?

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

Without sounding too hopeless, your H's influence is already significant- 16 years and she is soon to be an adult. He's her father and will have significant influence.

But on the positive side, she has two parents and you have significant influence. It is not ever too late to model emotionally healthy behavior- but first this means you have to have it.

Growing up, I thought my BPD mother was the "bad guy" in the family and the one with the disordered behaviors. Later, I began to work on my own co-dependency traits and realized that my father had played a significant role in how I behaved in relationships. This is how the cycle continues. I was taught to accept abusive behavior, and to placate, tolerate, soothe. It wasn't all negative. I also learned the most positive qualities from him too. He was a good man. You are a good person too, but both you and your H's behaviors influence your children.

But then, I also realized what I was demonstrating for my own kids. This was a big motivator.

Want to help your kids? Start with you, really.

[snowglobe]

You can always take what you have to a local lawyer, perhaps same one you have used before.  Get them to help you "package" your information and submit it.

Isn't it time for "light to shine" on his actions?

Best,

FF

Since this time I started with a clinician, I’ll wait for what he says. He has a lot of weight and connections when it comes to CAS and recommendations. Especially since he hasn’t come near any of us for the past 3 days... he just retreated to his little nook and stays there. He doesn’t approach, threaten or even acknowledge me or d16, if the police came, they would not see him raging. His is quite visibly calm, really.
Ff, you have been really instrumental for me to understand the detachment process, which by now I am a master of. Yet, natural consequences and actions (bpd believe what they see you do) are still foggy. Ubpdh threatened - so the consequence are me talking to the clinician and then follow his recommendations. As per actions- I ignore him, since he ignores me. Is that appropriate action?

[babyducks]

Here is my two cents:

While driving and talking, he started telling my daughter that I was lying and there were no long term repercussions of using the drugs. We went on saying he does not want me to lie to our daughter and started overtly glamorizing the drug, which of course infuriated me.

while in the car and driving, you had the opportunity to manage this conversation and this topic.     you had the self awareness to understand that this is a loaded topic, both you and your husband lost grandparents.    this is a tough one to talk about.   this is where you had to the opportunity to use the knowledge you have acquired, and the tools you have learned to better communicate with both your husband and your daughter in a fraught situation.

this is why you are advised to focus on yourself and your own reactions and understandings, rather than wait/hope for him to regulate his emotions and process information.   in this situation you need to be the emotional leader,  and use the tools to gently work the conversation into safer ground.

"Husband - this is interesting... let's talk about it later when you aren't driving."   and change the subject.

"Wow - that seems to be a really different opinion than what I have been exposed too.    Isn't amazing the amount of information that is out there".    said mildly.

Instead this devolved into a pissing match.    Having some sort of shame based disordered he could not appear less knowledgeable than you … especially in front of his daughter.     You are very well aware that he has a shame based disorder and has to protect his fragile sense of self and ego.      and that his maladaptive coping trait to do that is make you look/feel bad.    so he calls you a liar.    this was an opportunity to depersonalize his abusive language.     instead you become infuriated.     a clear   that you should stop,... withdraw, center
your emotions, and your thoughts to respond in ways that diffuse conflict.    Instead

 I was adamant about not allowing her to do that

you continue to Justify Argue Defend and Explain.    JADE is probably the first tool you were introduced to here.     JADE never turns out well because why?   because it forces BOTH people in the conversation to go to the limits of their argument.    There are communication tools that would have helped slow this conversation, deflect it to a later time,...  you have to be self aware enough to identify the tool and when/how to use it.

Ubpdh started arguing that it is better she does it at home, then tries elsewhere.

well of course he did.      you left him no other way out.  you weren't surprised by this were you?

I started raising my voice and

again manage your own emotions first   when the airplane is going down put on your own oxygen mask first.

I started raising my voice and ubpdh stormed in, saying “you are in deep trouble for yelling at her, I allowed it.” When I started telling him that it is unacceptable to give minor Alcohol he turned and walked out on me.

this is a continuation of the projection from the car.   He has to be the most knowledgeable, the most liked, the biggest and best person in the room.   you had some choices here.   Stop the conversation.   Deal with your daughter the next day when you are more composed.  Separate him from his audience (d16) handle them both separately as they are both in different emotional places.  Allow things to cool down.  You made the decision to continue the argument in front of your daughter.    you went back to JADE.   Yes, you poured gasoline all over this fire.   you made poor choices.  

While talking to d16, ubpdh stormed into the bedroom, yanked the blanket and the pillow and announced that “if you dare come near me, it will have serious physical repercussions for you, also, check your messages” with that he slammed the door. Here is the transcript of the messages:
“  8 days do not show your face near me
Do not call me
Do not talk to me under any circumstances
Do not look in my direction
Time starts now
Any misbehaviours will have devastating effect
Do not even conform that you have
Read this“

well that is utterly horrifying.    I agree with FF.    this is extremely dangerous considering what you have described to us in the past.    this needs to be your immediate priority.  your first concern.   the number one thing you deal with.     One wine cooler (or whatever she drank) will not immediately negatively impact d16.

(Why do I even need to explain this to a 45 yo man?.)

why would you even try to explain this to a 45 yo man.


where are you now with the threats against your safety?    

[babyducks]

If not (if you still think you can control his behavior or that you have the power to change him), there is different work to be done.

After showing the mood ubpd’s calendar to a clinician that works with our family (child, youth and family) he commented that it seems like a Conor is diagnosis of bpd and borderline type 2... which he would be reluctant to take upon.

The ideal case is to get him mandatorily psycho evaluated, which can be done only by the police.

GaGrl is correct.    There is different work to be done here.   if I understand your post right you made a mood calendar of your husbands emotional swings?   and that got you exactly what?    snowglobe - you are in this field.   you study this field.    what is your understanding of forcing, urging, mandating a non compliant person to accept treatment?   It has a success rate of what?   

Want to help your kids? Start with you, really.

you appear to me as very firm in your desire,  even driven in your desire, to put him first at the expense of all others.     why?    I seriously would like to know.   you show up here when there is a crisis, which happens with depressing regulatory.     you could come here even when there is no crisis, and build up your store of energy and ideas.     but you don't.    you bat away any comments or ideas that are not about your husband as if they were fire flies on a summer night.   you explain (and I understand) how very difficult your situation is but the only option you will consider is a way to force him to change his behavior.   how come?    why are you so invested in him?    I think if you could figure that out, you could find ways to make things better for all of you.

[formflier]

well that is utterly horrifying.    I agree with FF.    this is extremely dangerous considering what you have described to us in the past.    this needs to be your immediate priority.  your first concern.   the number one thing you deal with.     

I do not believe you should wait for word from the clinician.

If you do choose to wait, please make sure he has the full story.

"Given that my husband has assaulted me and my daughter in the past and given that his threatening me with assault now, do you believe I should alert police and potentially other authorities.  Can you please give me a written list of authorities I should contact and if there are any you believe I should not contact, please list those out as well."

Something like that. 

Best,

FF

[snowglobe]

Ducks,
Thank you for two very detailed replies. I’m home, physically away from ubpdh managing my children and myself. I appreciate the note that I only come here for emotional support when things get into crisis mode. Perhaps it’s because it’s barely tolerable as is and I can’t face the reality that my ubpdh checked out of this marriage long time ago. I’m an inconvenient contract he can’t get out of without suffering a substantial loss, so it’s cheaper to continue. I also appreciate the fact that all of you take time to reply to me, when I need it most. Yet, I want to bro g something to your attention. Majority of people in North America are coming from individualistic societies- make thuself happy and take responsibility for yourself. I was born and raised in a collectivist society, that said “be somebody’s wife, daughter and mother”, only through serving others can you be considered good. Different mentality, you see. Additionally, from Feminist psychology, my experience being a woman is putting me in a disadvantaged position to begin with. It’s not so much as my internal issues, as my external circumstances that dictate to focus on my ubpdh for the financial stability. Support is only provided on a condition of compliance and peace.
Regarding your first part of the reply- I am great full for the analysis of how things got out of hand, you are accurate regarding your observations, I did not manage my emotions. Things got out of hand and I did not hit the break in time to stop.

[Cat Familiar]

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