What Is Masculinity?

[Depression = 72% of members]

As Christmas comes and I face the prospect of spending it without my wife or the woman I thought I was going to spend the rest of my life with, my ex affair partner, I have read much on here about the nature of masculinity.

When i first got with my ex (affair partner) she said she liked the way I stood up to her. She found me intelligent (she loved my bespoke poetry), spiritual, supportive (I came with her to the hospital many times) sexy (she loved to look at us naked in the mirror), strong (I built her a wardrobe) and capable. As time went on and we began to argue and became increasingly emotional, that standing up to her became aggression and abuse in her eyes. I thought strength was standing toe to toe with her and not letting her control me. It turns out I should have listened more and kept my volatility to zero in the face of her own emotional dysregulation. I failed to do so. I argued and behaved like a man she lost respect for and saw as weak and abusive. My declarations of love became an albatross around her neck.

My sister told me that her recently deceased husband was her everything. He was strong, capable (very high quality handyman), intelligent, gentle and bolstered her whenever she was down. He constantly reinforced her good qualities and was there with her through thick and thin. I never saw him angry, though I know he had a temper, but was pretty much the perfect husband and father.

Do women see strength as a man who never argues but is silently strong? What is the perfect template for masculinity in this post feminist society where men are often confused about their roles? Do women with personality disorder traits go often men quicker due to a lack of masculinity? I have read many posts on here where masculinity is mentioned and wondered where I'm going wrong.

RF

[RomanticFool]

As Christmas comes and I face the prospect of spending it without my wife or the woman I thought I was going to spend the rest of my life with, my ex affair partner, I have read much on here about the nature of masculinity.

When i first got with my ex (affair partner) she said she liked the way I stood up to her. She found me intelligent (she loved my bespoke poetry), spiritual, supportive (I came with her to the hospital many times) sexy (she loved to look at us naked in the mirror), strong (I built her a wardrobe) and capable. As time went on and we began to argue and became increasingly emotional, that standing up to her became aggression and abuse in her eyes. I thought strength was standing toe to toe with her and not letting her control me. It turns out I should have listened more and kept my volatility to zero in the face of her own emotional dysregulation. I failed to do so. I argued and behaved like a man she lost respect for and saw as weak and abusive. My declarations of love became an albatross around her neck.

My sister told me that her recently deceased husband was her everything. He was strong, capable (very high quality handyman), intelligent, gentle and bolstered her whenever she was down. He constantly reinforced her good qualities and was there with her through thick and thin. I never saw him angry, though I know he had a temper, but was pretty much the perfect husband and father.

Do women see strength as a man who never argues but is silently strong? What is the perfect template for masculinity in this post feminist society where men are often confused about their roles? Do women with personality disorder traits go often men quicker due to a lack of masculinity? I have read many posts on here where masculinity is mentioned and wondered where I'm going wrong.

RF

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Las1604]

New to this board, but I'll offer my two cents.

I think it's definitely silently strong; if you act emotional or lose your cool it's generally a turn off to most women from an attraction perspective. Just what I've experienced in my life as well. Don't expect a girlfriend / wife or whatever to really be able to help you with emotional problems; they're "supposed" to be the emotional ones, not you. Sucks, but men generally have to suffer in silence, and figure stuff out on their own.

[RomanticFool]

Welcome to the boards.

I agree. That was the whole issue with my last couple of relationships. They were just not interested in me as an emotional being. Except for the first two weeks when I immediately told my wife I had a crush on someone. My ex was sympathetic around that exactly two times. Then when she realised I’d backtracked it all changed. Looking back I don’t blame her for being upset that I’d taken a backward step. Indeed had I been more the strong silent type back then she may not have gone off me. It’s a shock to finally understand that emotions in a man are not attractive to women. She told me at the time that she only liked me when I was in my wise head. I told her that I’m a human being and that I can’t always be calm and measured. That was my first fatal error. I should have told her that I’d always be calm and strong for her.

[pursuingJoy]

This is a really interesting topic. RomanticFool, I keep coming back to your statement about "going toe to toe with her and not letting her control me." I'm very interested in how that plays out for you. Duderanch, I'd love to hear more about how you'd like your girlfriend/wife to help you with emotional problems.

As a woman, it makes me sad to hear that you both feel like you aren't welcome to share emotions, be your true selves or be vulnerable, that it's only ok for women to do that. I wish you felt free to express your emotions in healthy ways and found a way to surround yourself with men and women who felt the same way and appreciated that about you. I believe men and women have equal right to feel and express emotions and feel safe around others in doing so. 

The biggest challenge with my H is not that he has an opinion or expresses an emotion, it's how he responds to the emotion he feels. How we respond to our emotion has a huge impact on our relationships, is 100% our responsibility and ours to control. It's what makes BPD so challenging.

If my H tells me that he doesn't feel the same way I do about his mom, I can respect our difference. If he feels defensive and tells me, "You're the problem, that's just the way my mom is, get over it, you're too sensitive," I too feel defensive, misunderstood and angry.

If my H is feeling disrespected by something my daughter did, I'm happy to talk to him to understand more about why he feels disrespected. If he tells me he feels rejected and hurt when she does something, I empathize all the way. When he starts venting in a loud voice calling her selfish, lazy, and says he wants to rip kids new a-holes for being that way, I feel scared and defensive.

My H is former military, a big guy who lifts weights and has weapons in the house. It is genuinely confusing to him when I share that he scares me when he gets loud and aggressively cusses and uses foul language about people he says he loves. In fairness, dysregulating women can also be scary. This kind of aggression is pretty universally counterproductive to a conversation. 

Although it helps to get the right kinds of responses, I don't have to wait for others to give me the right to feel or express emotions, it's something I can give myself. I'm aware that this may be female emotional privilege talking. As you pointed out, RF, the narratives are changing. Good thoughts. I'd love to discuss more. 

pj

[Skip]

Stability.

We want a masculine soldiers. Men that will die for the platoon.

We want a masculine airline pilot. We don't want him crying if the plane is having trouble.

We want a masculine basketball team mate - stays cool and plays the game right to the end, even when we're behind by 10 points.

We want masculine fathers - not someone who loses it.

We want masculine husbands. Emotionally in tune with the family and able to understand and communicate. Wise and thoughtful leaders. Humble. Benevolent. Emotionally stable. Selfless. Motivating.

A lot of men have lost touch with their masculinity. Some have confused it with machismo. Some has confused it with being a guys guys and fishing rods. Some have confused it with Alan Alda.

[Las1604]

Duderanch, I'd love to hear more about how you'd like your girlfriend/wife to help you with emotional problems.
As a woman, it makes me sad to hear that you both feel like you aren't welcome to share emotions, be your true selves or be vulnerable, that it's only ok for women to do that. I wish you felt free to express your emotions in healthy ways and found a way to surround yourself with men and women who felt the same way and appreciated that about you. I believe men and women have equal right to feel and express emotions and feel safe around others in doing so. 

Hi Joy - really I don't expect to do much except listen and add in the odd "man that sucks" or "that's no good I'm sorry to hear that." Unfortunately, even venting / expressing how you feel can be a death knell in relationships. Just IMO, and I've dated 4 long term women, and several other short term, no one wants to hear a guy upset about how poorly his boss treats him or how bad his day was. Again - it's just an attraction thing. I don't expect them to do anything else other than listen, but even that's too much it seems .

[pursuingJoy]

Stability.

We want a masculine soldiers. Men that will die for the platoon.

We want a masculine airline pilot. We don't want him crying if the plane is having trouble.

We want a masculine basketball team mate - stays cool and plays the game right to the end, even when we're behind by 10 points.

We want masculine fathers - not someone who loses it.

We want masculine husbands. Emotionally in tune with the family and able to understand and communicate. Wise and thoughtful leaders. Humble. Benevolent. Emotionally stable. Selfless. Motivating.

A lot of men have lost touch with their masculinity. Some have confused it with machismo. Some has confused it with being a guys guys and fishing rods. Some have confused it with Alan Alda.

Love all of this Skip. You put it beautifully.

I don't expect them to do anything else other than listen, but even that's too much it seems .

Duderanch, it's completely reasonable to want someone to hear how your day was or how badly your boss treated you. I'm really sad to hear that your relationships have lacked in this regard. I really hope you don't believe you're asking too much or go into it expecting your girlfriends not to listen. 

[RomanticFool]

Stability.

We want a masculine soldiers. Men that will die for the platoon.

We want a masculine airline pilot. We don't want him crying if the plane is having trouble.

We want a masculine basketball team mate - stays cool and plays the game right to the end, even when we're behind by 10 points.

We want masculine fathers - not someone who loses it.

We want masculine husbands. Emotionally in tune with the family and able to understand and communicate. Wise and thoughtful leaders. Humble. Benevolent. Emotionally stable. Selfless. Motivating.

A lot of men have lost touch with their masculinity. Some have confused it with machismo. Some has confused it with being a guys guys and fishing rods. Some have confused it with Alan Alda

To me this is an old fashioned view of masculinity. I think men should have the right to be as emotional as women. I also think if a woman screams in my face, I have the right to scream in her face back. If a woman physically assaults me, I have the right to at least defend myself. All of the above was interpreted as abuse by my ex and believe me I was restrained compared to how she behaved. I do not see why a man has to be the calm and responsible one and the woman can behave as erratically and outrageously as she pleases. This is the essential issue with my previous two partners. It was never an issue with my wife who can be emotional but is usually calm, wise and reasonable. Having said all of the above, I do try to show restraint in all of my dealings with women but the ones who behave unreasonably towards me, should not go unchallenged. My ex partner assaulted me on four occasions, I behaved well every time she did it but I felt utterly devastated and diminished by these attacks. No person, man or woman should tolerate physical or verbal abuse and she screamed at me in the street on countless occasions too.

By the way I love Alan Alda's characters and find them funny - most women say they want a man who makes them laugh, his characters would make anybody laugh.

[Turkish]

M*A*S*H either went downhill after Alan Alda took control or it got better.  The show certainly changed.

My ex was attracted to me since I wasn't from her machismo culture, yet later would shame me for not doing "xyz." She would say, "A Mexican man would do..." while I was confused. I eanted to say, "I thought you were turned off by men like your father, so why are you asking me to be like that?"

I know she meant the positive things, not the negative, but she never had an appreciation that I never had a father, was kind of feminized by my single 1st Wave feminist mother, and that I'm proud that I can do simple work on my motorcycle and her car at the time.  Sorry, I'm clueless on a home remodel, but I won't ever beat you or cheat on you.  And yes, I'll fix your car, and advocate for you at that mechanic to save you $2k because they tried to take advantage of you (I felt that she never appreciated that time... and note to women: sometimes simple appreciation is all men need to feel validated, if it's valid of course).

I don't have an answer.  I mostly wanted to follow because it's a good question, and I wanted to see what the women here say. 

[pursuingJoy]

RF, first of all, I hate to hear and others have had to endure relationships like that. I can only imagine the strength it took to survive and respond and get through it. Thankfully your wife is not like that!

I think men should have the right to be as emotional as women.

Agreed. It's a fact that men feel emotions (sadness, fear, anger, etc) just like women do. Societally it can be argued that women are generally offered a wider berth to express their emotions while men are told to suck it up. This is wrong and I'm glad it's changing.

I also think if a woman screams in my face, I have the right to scream in her face back.

My humble opinion, no man or woman has the 'right' to scream at anyone in the face. I'm not a fan of retaliating with the same because I haven't found it to be effective. 

My H says horrible things to me about my kids. It makes me want to scream. Instead I make the conscious choice to stay calm, walk away, and set firm limits. This was and is hard to do because it's not fair. I'm willing to do it because I'm the one that can AND I have a longer-term goal in mind: a relationship where I feel respected, cherished and honored. By screaming back, I'm focusing on the here and now and I'm adding fuel to the fire. So I choose to clearly and firmly communicate about the way he makes me feel, insist on marriage counseling, and set firm boundaries that send a clear message that I won't tolerate his behavior.

What I'm learning on this site is that everyone, man or woman, should express emotions responsibly. I do not believe that accepting or tolerating abuse is any version of masculinity.

That said, there is nothing more sexy than a strong man who can control his strength. By not screaming back in her face, you're exhibiting incredibly masculine strength. Believing you're worth treating well and setting boundaries for yourself is incredibly masculine and will earn my respect. Setting limits (if you continue to scream I will leave the room) and expressing your emotion in healthy ways (I feel hurt when you scream in my face) will earn my respect.

If she hits you, you should follow DV advocates' advice and leave her physical space. What she is doing is wrong and should not be tolerated. Protect yourself in the moment by leaving, and protect yourself in the long run by minimizing your role in the physical encounter.

All of the above was interpreted as abuse by my ex and believe me I was restrained compared to how she behaved. I do not see why a man has to be the calm and responsible one and the woman can behave as erratically and outrageously as she pleases.

I do believe you. I do not think anyone, man or woman, should be given a pass for hurtful behavior.

My ex was attracted to me since I wasn't from her machismo culture, yet later would shame me for not doing "xyz." She would say, "A Mexican man would do..." while I was confused. I eanted to say, "I thought you were turned off by men like your father, so why are you asking me to be like that?"

Yeah this would be confusing to me too. Sort of like you have a comfort level with what you've been raised with, but somewhere in the back of your mind you also know you want something different. Those two might exist in my head at the same time, I'd have to sort them out in therapy to figure out what I really want.

and note to women: sometimes simple appreciation is all men need to feel validated, if it's valid of course).

I'm guilty of not expressing enough appreciation. Good point Turkish.

[Skip]

I think men should have the right to be as emotional as women.

Men have this right, now.    The bandwidth on what is acceptable for how a man can present himself has never in recent history been wider than it is now - look at Caitlyn (formerly Bruce) Jenner.

I think your real question is "what is Masculinity" and what are the attractive characteristics for women who are attracted to it. Fair?

I also think if a woman screams in my face, I have the right to scream in her face back.

You have the right. And she has the right to feel it's abusive.

When we are talking about attractiveness and relationship dynamics and there no absolute rules that we must all follow - it's all about compatibility. People want to be raised up in a relationship.

My partner is an emotional being. I love that about her. The flip side of that is that she can be hurtful when she is hurt - not my favorite thing - but I love her for who she is and this is part of her. She is attracted to my ability to hear her, disarm her, give her space and know when to do each. I've had to work at it in life - it's part of growing up - not instinctive. Like a new golf swing, it was awkward in the beginning, but now it is second nature.

She wouldn't find someone piling on to her emotional overload helpful or attractive - that's why she left her marriage.

This is not to say we can't have good boundaries. There was a few things that we needed to get into the "never" category and we did.

As for her supporting me, she does so in many ways.

Fair? Rights? Ideal?

I don't think this ever is the point. The point is compatibility.

We all want to be supported and held in high esteem in a relationship. It often works best when we can align ourselves to compliment each others needs, offset each others weaknesses.

If a woman physically assaults me, I have the right to at least defend myself.

Maybe not... look at domestic violence laws. It's a big topic, and there are good threads on the workshop board to read.

But RM, if it's some low level physicality by a female partner, healthy boundaries are much better than a counter punch... and more effective.

All of the above was interpreted as abuse by my ex...

This is probably not surprising to anyone reading.

The women you are attracted to are "unboundaried" and "passionate" (to use your terms). Women who "put it all out there" easily. The are impulsive, risk takers, volatile. These relationships will always be difficult and require a lot of "survival skills".

I ...do not see why a man has to be the calm and responsible one and the woman can behave as erratically and outrageously as she pleases. This is the essential issue with my previous two partners.

Why don't you just leave people like this?  My observation in reading your posts of two years is the more they put you down, the more you want them.

[Steps31]

I've done some work with this project.
Check them out if you're interested - it's a healthy place for men to hold an open space for each other and listen
https://mankindproject.org/

[Jareth89]

What is the perfect template for masculinity in this post feminist society where men are often confused about their roles? Do women with personality disorder traits go often men quicker due to a lack of masculinity? I have read many posts on here where masculinity is mentioned and wondered where I'm going wrong.

When I have a moment I can post what I found about this profound question but it's very interesting. It looks like the attraction/pairing of a bpd woman with a caretaker man in psychology is a reversal of the hero archetype...which feeds into the definition of 'what is masculinity', 'what is femininity' (which can be adopted by both men and women)...what is the psychology underpinning the healthy model for attraction and why (by design?) What effect does this have on the parenting partnership/family structure - which is designed to give the ideal foundation to produce a strong next generation - for a purpose.

Does feminism encourage a reversal of the possibly designed, ideal template/characteristics for a man and woman (a complementary partnership, not competition).

[jaded7]

This is fascinating.

My gf whom I've written about a lot  here (still 6 weeks nc now, still miss her) is very controlling and very bossy and very snappy and quick to anger. When she would get VERY angry and yelling at me, I would always just remain calm. Maybe a little annoyed or frustrated with the changing facts and 'stories' in her head about what happened or what was happening, but never yell back. I think my tone of voice would get just frustrated and kind of 'oh my god, honey' and that annoyed her.

 I never once yelled at her, never once got in her face. That's not who I am, and I don't want to be that person. It's enough that one person is out of control.

If what she wants is someone to get upset with her and argue with her in an angry way, I don't think that's healthy.