Stuck

[Depression = 72% of members]

I don’t know where to begin. I am hurt, angry, frustrated, confused, and now short on time. I typed out the whole story, and when I hit “post” I lost my internet connection and the whole thing disappeared. 

Long story short, after my MIL’s hospitalization for a “suicide attempt” last fall, she agreed that she needed her own space apart from us. She felt the way we run our household is too much pressure for her and that she wanted part of her house in FL back. My SIL is currently living in it, so my MIL went down and told her that she needed to return it to the condition that it was in when she first moved in and accept that my MIL will be using the house more, or that she has until March to move out and my MIL will move back in.
My husband and I needed to know which option she chose because it affects our current living situation. If she decided to be a snowbird, we would keep our apartment, but if she moved back to FL full time, we would downsize.

This created a lot of drama with her family. My husband and I did a good job of staying out of the chaos in spite of a lot of efforts to pull us in. My MIL’s mom is really mad at her for saying that to my SIL and convinced my MIL to drop the whole issue. But, if she drops it, it does not help us move forward with carving out space for just my husband and I like the three of us agreed.

Even though we asked her not to, my MIL had her mom on speakerphone last night. She said to my MIL, “You need to stop this. You are on the verge of a breakdown and ---me--- is going to put you back in the institution again.” Apart from the fact that this was such an inappropriate comment to make, my heart sank. I realized in that moment that no one really recognizes how unwell my MIL is and that they all blame solely me for her landing in the hospital. It doesn’t matter that my husband and BIL and I all called 911 that night. In their eyes, I ruined their family and everyone is just doing what they can “to keep the peace” and my husband, BIL and I are the only ones sticking to boundaries.

My husband and I need space. We need our own time together. We cannot keep putting our lives on hold. We want a family. (We thought? Honestly, all of this scares me and makes me question if we can ever raise a family in a healthy environment.)
Even though my MIL agreed to drop it, we did not. And my husband and I are still adamant that we need her to not be here full time. How do we hold her accountable now? We have reminded her that these were all things she said she wanted, but now my MIL’s wants are becoming whatever anyone tells her to do. She feels unwanted and unnecessary and burdensome, and the sad truth is that it is partially true. We love her, but this cannot continue.

My husband’s heart is breaking. He is starting to understand that he is not responsible for his mom in the way that he was raised to believe. And I am trying to be patient, but I can’t stall on this anymore. I am trying to be a rock for him because I know that kicking his mom out is devastating for him. And I am trying to be supportive of her because I know that she is just confused and doesn’t know how to cope with any of this. And I want her to see that having her move out doesn’t mean we love her less and will not abandon her completely. And my husband is trying to be conscious of how it affects me, but I think his grief overwhelms him at times, and sometimes I feel forgotten in all of it. He says he agrees that these steps are necessary, but I feel like I am making him choose between me and his mom.

We plan on having a conversation with her sometime over the next few days, but we are trying to figure out the words to make sure we get it right and we don’t even know where to begin. 

I know I’ve posted about this before. I don’t know how to reference prior threads, and I was so happy with the progress we thought we were making. We were doing such a good job and I was so proud of us! We definitely didn’t foresee this turning into a massive family affair.

ughhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[Spindle0516]

I don’t know where to begin. I am hurt, angry, frustrated, confused, and now short on time. I typed out the whole story, and when I hit “post” I lost my internet connection and the whole thing disappeared. 

Long story short, after my MIL’s hospitalization for a “suicide attempt” last fall, she agreed that she needed her own space apart from us. She felt the way we run our household is too much pressure for her and that she wanted part of her house in FL back. My SIL is currently living in it, so my MIL went down and told her that she needed to return it to the condition that it was in when she first moved in and accept that my MIL will be using the house more, or that she has until March to move out and my MIL will move back in.
My husband and I needed to know which option she chose because it affects our current living situation. If she decided to be a snowbird, we would keep our apartment, but if she moved back to FL full time, we would downsize.

This created a lot of drama with her family. My husband and I did a good job of staying out of the chaos in spite of a lot of efforts to pull us in. My MIL’s mom is really mad at her for saying that to my SIL and convinced my MIL to drop the whole issue. But, if she drops it, it does not help us move forward with carving out space for just my husband and I like the three of us agreed.

Even though we asked her not to, my MIL had her mom on speakerphone last night. She said to my MIL, “You need to stop this. You are on the verge of a breakdown and ---me--- is going to put you back in the institution again.” Apart from the fact that this was such an inappropriate comment to make, my heart sank. I realized in that moment that no one really recognizes how unwell my MIL is and that they all blame solely me for her landing in the hospital. It doesn’t matter that my husband and BIL and I all called 911 that night. In their eyes, I ruined their family and everyone is just doing what they can “to keep the peace” and my husband, BIL and I are the only ones sticking to boundaries.

My husband and I need space. We need our own time together. We cannot keep putting our lives on hold. We want a family. (We thought? Honestly, all of this scares me and makes me question if we can ever raise a family in a healthy environment.)
Even though my MIL agreed to drop it, we did not. And my husband and I are still adamant that we need her to not be here full time. How do we hold her accountable now? We have reminded her that these were all things she said she wanted, but now my MIL’s wants are becoming whatever anyone tells her to do. She feels unwanted and unnecessary and burdensome, and the sad truth is that it is partially true. We love her, but this cannot continue.

My husband’s heart is breaking. He is starting to understand that he is not responsible for his mom in the way that he was raised to believe. And I am trying to be patient, but I can’t stall on this anymore. I am trying to be a rock for him because I know that kicking his mom out is devastating for him. And I am trying to be supportive of her because I know that she is just confused and doesn’t know how to cope with any of this. And I want her to see that having her move out doesn’t mean we love her less and will not abandon her completely. And my husband is trying to be conscious of how it affects me, but I think his grief overwhelms him at times, and sometimes I feel forgotten in all of it. He says he agrees that these steps are necessary, but I feel like I am making him choose between me and his mom.

We plan on having a conversation with her sometime over the next few days, but we are trying to figure out the words to make sure we get it right and we don’t even know where to begin. 

I know I’ve posted about this before. I don’t know how to reference prior threads, and I was so happy with the progress we thought we were making. We were doing such a good job and I was so proud of us! We definitely didn’t foresee this turning into a massive family affair.

ughhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[Spindle0516]

I was just thinking and thought I should add a few things. When she describes what she wants, we often try to mirror back so we can confirm we are understanding her correctly.

So we have been saying things like, "We know that this has been confusing and overwhelming for you and we are a bit confused too. If what you want has changed that is okay and we can talk about that. From what we understand though, you've been saying that you want your own space from us and we also feel that time for us to be alone is good for us too. We don't have a lot of time to make these decisions though because our lease renews April 1st, so we have to start planning now."

But now she is responding with statements like, "Whatever you want me to do do, I'll do. I can go move in with my parents and then you won't have to deal with me." (They offered to put a trailer on their property for her to stay in, but we believe her father was abusive to her in the past and she panics at the thought of being near him.)

We ask her what she wants and she does not know. And when we repeat things that she has said she wants, she gets flustered, and resorts to statements like what I wrote above.

It doesn't help that when she does say what she wants, her mom interferes and tells her to stop. My MIL is in her 60's but turns into a 5 year old around her parents and cannot follow through around them. It is clear that what she wants has never had any value and that is why she cannot tell us clearly. She wants us to tell her what to do, but then is hurt when we do tell her what we want. And thus, we are in the position of having to make decisions for her and the whole thing falls back on us. We continue to be the bad guys.

[pursuingJoy]

Even though we asked her not to, my MIL had her mom on speakerphone last night. She said to my MIL, “You need to stop this. You are on the verge of a breakdown and ---me--- is going to put you back in the institution again.” Apart from the fact that this was such an inappropriate comment to make, my heart sank. I realized in that moment that no one really recognizes how unwell my MIL is and that they all blame solely me for her landing in the hospital. It doesn’t matter that my husband and BIL and I all called 911 that night. In their eyes, I ruined their family and everyone is just doing what they can “to keep the peace” and my husband, BIL and I are the only ones sticking to boundaries.

So inappropriate on many levels. This is upsetting to me. It is unfair that you're being scapegoated. I also had no idea that your MIL's mom was so active in all of this. My goodness she has some pull, doesn't she? And to use it to undermine what you're doing, to undermine her daughter's independence...it's kind of infuriating.

Even though my MIL agreed to drop it, we did not. And my husband and I are still adamant that we need her to not be here full time. How do we hold her accountable now? We have reminded her that these were all things she said she wanted, but now my MIL’s wants are becoming whatever anyone tells her to do. She feels unwanted and unnecessary and burdensome, and the sad truth is that it is partially true. We love her, but this cannot continue.

Yesssss I'm so glad you didn't drop it Spindle. You need this.

My H will ask his mom over and over what she wants. She can't decide, and the bigger the decision, the more waify she gets. Last week, after they went back and forth on on a decision, I finally made a solid, practical suggestion. She decided what she wanted shortly thereafter.

If your MIL won't decide, can you offer her 2-3 options of apartments that might work for her? Do the research and simply state that you're going to go look at them with her. She may then decide that's not what she wants at all and she'll say she wants to go back to her house. There's got to be a way to "unstick" her indecisiveness. (Keeping her mom out of it might be the hard part, but if the SIL is left out of it, will her mom leave it alone? Do you think her mom got involved and the behest of SIL?)

And I am trying to be patient, but I can’t stall on this anymore.

And my husband is trying to be conscious of how it affects me, but I think his grief overwhelms him at times, and sometimes I feel forgotten in all of it.

You're doing an incredible job of considering others' needs, I'm glad you're not forgetting yours. i'm so sorry for the way all of this makes you feel.

As far as having the conversation with her, it sounds like you can assume/accept that she will be hurt and upset by all of this. That is her BPD emotional stuff kicking in. You know better. You know you're acting out of healthy boundaries and love and all that is good. Would it help to simplify the message, continue to stay calm for her, and offer 2-3 living options that she can choose from, or apartments to go see?

She wants us to tell her what to do, but then is hurt when we do tell her what we want. And thus, we are in the position of having to make decisions for her and the whole thing falls back on us. We continue to be the bad guys.

I soo get what you're saying about being indecisive, then hurt when you tell her what you want. My MIL is exactly the same. This really may boil down to taking care of your marriage and harm reduction. In the meantime, your husband's heart is breaking. Ugh. Spindle. I wish I could help!

[Spindle0516]

I also had no idea that your MIL's mom was so active in all of this. My goodness she has some pull, doesn't she? And to use it to undermine what you're doing, to undermine her daughter's independence...it's kind of infuriating.

Until now, she hasn't been involved so this came from left field!  I cannot get it out of my head today and it is really bothering me. Their whole family constantly undermines and blames everyone and I have a hard time understanding it. It really helps me see how systemic mental health issues can be. I actually really feel bad for my MIL as her mom was incredibly invalidating and unconcerned about her in this situation.

There's got to be a way to "unstick" her indecisiveness. (Keeping her mom out of it might be the hard part, but if the SIL is left out of it, will her mom leave it alone? Do you think her mom got involved and the behest of SIL?)

I do not see how to keep her family out of it. If she decides to reclaim her house in any capacity my SIL will act out as far as not letting my MIL see her grandkids. There are a lot of layers to that backstory, but in short, my MIL's mom always caves and gives her whatever she wants. My SIL has been trying to find a way to buy a house/get someone to buy her a house but her own instability is preventing that. This drama plays right into her hands and it is working. I am tempted to say F*** the house and just go get your own apartment, but I know my MIL is concerned that she is perpetuating a cycle of never teaching her financial independence. (Which is funny because she has not done well in this area at all but that is beside the point)

On a positive note though, when I came home today, she showed me some apartments that she was looking at, so maybe this will work out still? Talking to her some more tonight so I will keep you posted.

[pursuingJoy]

Until now, she hasn't been involved so this came from left field!  I cannot get it out of my head today and it is really bothering me. Their whole family constantly undermines and blames everyone and I have a hard time understanding it.

I'd feel the same way about her sudden intrusion. Wow. I didn't see that coming. I can only imagine how you feel right now. And yet you're still working hard to see all sides of this, and you see how difficult it must be for your MIL. 

I do not see how to keep her family out of it. If she decides to reclaim her house in any capacity my SIL will act out as far as not letting my MIL see her grandkids. There are a lot of layers to that backstory, but in short, my MIL's mom always caves and gives her whatever she wants. My SIL has been trying to find a way to buy a house/get someone to buy her a house but her own instability is preventing that. This drama plays right into her hands and it is working. I am tempted to say F*** the house and just go get your own apartment, but I know my MIL is concerned that she is perpetuating a cycle of never teaching her financial independence. (Which is funny because she has not done well in this area at all but that is beside the point)

It sounds like her concerns about not seeing grandkids and rocking the boat may trump anything else, but out of curiosity, does your MIL have any legal recourse here? Did she sign the house over to SIL? Unless there is a legal loophole, this doesn't sound like a battle you're likely to win as far as getting the house back. It's sad, for sure, but I do not believe that it needs to change your focus on meeting your needs. Your MIL has options. 

On a positive note though, when I came home today, she showed me some apartments that she was looking at, so maybe this will work out still? Talking to her some more tonight so I will keep you posted.

Really crossing my fingers and hoping that this is the ticket. Keep us posted.

pj

[Spindle0516]

It sounds like her concerns about not seeing grandkids and rocking the boat may trump anything else, but out of curiosity, does your MIL have any legal recourse here? Did she sign the house over to SIL?

Their agreement was more of a verbal one. My MIL wanted to come to NY, but didn't want to give up her house in Florida in the event that she didn't like it here. My SIL was looking for an apartment at the time so my MIL decided to let her live in the house as long as she maintained the property and paid the bills.

While my MIL has completely valid concerns and has handled herself fairly appropriate throughout this process, there are definitely moments when she has made this situation far more complicated. We can really see the BPD kicking in- my husband and I have worked really hard on how we communicate with her and there has been a notable improvement in our relationship, but as a result, I am concerned that she is now acting out in her other relationships. Most of her family has always seen her as fairly stable, a rock, if you will. No one has ever believed that she has significant mental health issues, but some of those colors are starting to show and I think it may be confusing everyone. In their eyes, it cannot be her causing her to behave this way, so it must be me.

To be fair, my SIL was verbally attacked by my MIL as well when she was in the hospital and I know that is still lingering at the surface for my SIL. My MIL has never behaved in that way to her before and I know she is hurt and confused. BUT I have actually begun to suspect that my SIL has BPD as well or at the very least has numerous BPD traits. So, as I am sure you can imagine, while all sides have valid reasons for being upset, they are all acting inappropriately and not helping themselves in this situation.

Anyway, we continued our conversation with my MIL last night and I am not sure if I feel better or just more confused. I am so tired of this. My MIL told her mom that she will give my SIL until the end of the month to give an answer which means that we have to wait again. I feel like my impatience is starting to show and I am having a really hard time not reacting in a way that is going to make this worse and I don’t know what to do.

She said that if my SIL is going to withhold the grandkids from her then she doesn’t want a place there and she will just stay here. So I said, “Okay. So if you stay here, then we can look for an apartment for you here and we will just downsize.” She was appalled. She didn’t understand why she wouldn’t continue living with us. Throughout this process, she is losing sight of the fact that SHE TOLD US SHE WANTED SPACE. Now that it is a reality and we are holding to it, she does not know what to do and I think this is about to get worse? We are at a loss for how to respond to this. We decided to pause the conversation at that moment, but my husband and I need a response to this and we do not know how to phrase it short of “You cannot live here anymore.” We have tried so hard to stick with what she says she wants, but I think that mileage has been used up, so now what?

My MIL and her mom want us to just sign the lease and say that they will figure out a way to keep the apartment. My husband and I do not like this solution at all- we are two adults capable of figuring out our future and we do not want to be tied up in everything that is happening there. This is their way of just doling out money to stop the drama and avoid any hard conversations or decisions. But they do not understand our adamance against this and I think this part of the conversation is going to get tricky.

[pursuingJoy]

She said that if my SIL is going to withhold the grandkids from her then she doesn’t want a place there and she will just stay here. So I said, “Okay. So if you stay here, then we can look for an apartment for you here and we will just downsize.” She was appalled. She didn’t understand why she wouldn’t continue living with us.

We decided to pause the conversation at that moment, but my husband and I need a response to this and we do not know how to phrase it short of “You cannot live here anymore.”

I'm so glad you spoke up. You didn't say anything wrong. Perhaps she is perceiving rejection or abandonment, but that is her emotion to manage. She will be ok.

What is stopping you from saying "We love you. We have enjoyed living together. It is important that H and I have time to build our independent life together. Our goal is to help you find an apartment and move out by February 15. Thank you for your support and understanding." She will be upset but she can and will recover. You're setting a clear boundary to protect what you value.

I know this isn't your intent, but are open-ended conversations about what she wants sending a clear message or blurring boundaries? And maybe I'm jumping the gun - do you have a clear message to send, or do you first need to take some time to get on the same page with H?

My MIL and her mom want us to just sign the lease and say that they will figure out a way to keep the apartment. My husband and I do not like this solution at all- we are two adults capable of figuring out our future and we do not want to be tied up in everything that is happening there. This is their way of just doling out money to stop the drama and avoid any hard conversations or decisions. But they do not understand our adamance against this and I think this part of the conversation is going to get tricky.

Something tells me you're 100% right. We know how financial favors come back to bite us. I'd talk to H and come up with a firm no thank you on this.

[Spindle0516]

I'm so glad you spoke up. You didn't say anything wrong. Perhaps she is perceiving rejection or abandonment, but that is her emotion to manage. She will be ok.

This is a good point and one that is really hard to remember.

What is stopping you from saying "We love you. We have enjoyed living together. It is important that H and I have time to build our independent life together. Our goal is to help you find an apartment and move out by February 15. Thank you for your support and understanding." She will be upset but she can and will recover. You're setting a clear boundary to protect what you value.

Also a good question. Fear. Guilt.
It is hard to knowingly make a choice that will be the ultimate form of rejection and abandonment for her.

I know this isn't your intent, but are open-ended conversations about what she wants sending a clear message or blurring boundaries? And maybe I'm jumping the gun - do you have a clear message to send, or do you first need to take some time to get on the same page with H?

Hmm. They might be. It felt like we were on the same page for a while, but now I wonder if as what she wants becomes unclear for her, it is confusing her that what we want has stayed the same. My husband and I are going to chew on this.

Does this make sense?

Today, after walking her dog, she stormed in the house and stated that she wanted to go back to Florida tomorrow because she can't handle the cold. We thought she was kidding, but it quickly became apparent that she was serious.

It feels confusing because she couldn't wait to get back here, but any amount of space is always a gift. We asked her where she would stay and she said she didn't care. She called her mom and asked her to make arrangements for a place to stay. We work in the airline industry so getting her there isn't a problem- so now she is going back tomorrow?

It feels confusing. She keeps saying things like "Now you guys can have a break from me" and "Aren't you glad I am leaving?" and "--me-- is going to be so glad to be rid of me again." I haven't answered her when she said any of these things, but it all feels weird and baited and I don't know how to respond.

I feel exhausted by this. And my anxiety has been so high today and I am not super patient and engaging when I am anxious, so I don't think it is helping.

Ugh. I hate anxiety.

[pursuingJoy]

Spindle, I hate anxiety too. Just reading this from afar, my head is on a swivel. Your MIL is engaging in so many emotionally acrobatic 180's right now.    I am so sorry, I know this is hard on you.  

It felt like we were on the same page for a while, but now I wonder if as what she wants becomes unclear for her, it is confusing her that what we want has stayed the same. My husband and I are going to chew on this.

Does this make sense?

It does. Maybe her confusion is a mask, though, a technique she's learned. It actually makes sense that your steadfastness would be exactly what is upsetting her (masked by confusion) because you're not allowing her to back into her comfort zone. You're very wise to take a moment to regroup with H. You're managing a stressful season with so much thoughtfulness and kindness, and I think your approach is effective and loving.  

It is hard to knowingly make a choice that will be the ultimate form of rejection and abandonment for her.

You are neither rejecting or abandoning her. It's ok that she feels the way she does, but it's not based on facts. It's equally valid that you have different feelings about all of this.

Today, after walking her dog, she stormed in the house and stated that she wanted to go back to Florida tomorrow because she can't handle the cold. We thought she was kidding, but it quickly became apparent that she was serious.

It feels confusing because she couldn't wait to get back here, but any amount of space is always a gift. We asked her where she would stay and she said she didn't care. She called her mom and asked her to make arrangements for a place to stay. We work in the airline industry so getting her there isn't a problem- so now she is going back tomorrow?

I agree this could be a gift and exactly what is needed to make you feel unstuck. How is your H feeling right now?

I'm curious to know if she follows through as there seems to be a lot of back and forth.

[Spindle0516]

 Maybe her confusion is a mask, though, a technique she's learned. It actually makes sense that your steadfastness would be exactly what is upsetting her (masked by confusion) because you're not allowing her to back into her comfort zone. You're very wise to take a moment to regroup with H.

This is a very good point and one that we are thinking about.

You are neither rejecting or abandoning her. It's ok that she feels the way she does, but it's not based on facts. It's equally valid that you have different feelings about all of this.

I know that is true intellectually, but there is something about BPD's and knowing how to hit you emotionally where you feel trapped and without options. We had many long conversations with her already today and during the first one, she kept hiding her head under her covers and saying things like "I am not wanted here" and "I do not belong anywhere." I honestly am not even sure how we responded- I felt like we tried to skirt around having a specific response to those statements, but the whole thing was so confusing.

But really, what should one say to a statement like that? Saying she is wanted and that she belongs here just reinforces the idea for her that she doesn't ever have to move on from this place. And saying that she isn't wanted or that she doesn't belong just feels mean. Everyone needs to feel wanted and like they belong, but there is no scenario where she can hear that and not continue to cling to us like her life depends on it.

How is your H feeling right now?

I think that he is feeling a lot of the things that I am feeling. Desperate for space. Trapped. But I would say that the guilt is more amplified for him than it is for me, understandably. I can see that he is trying so hard to create some distance between the two of them (I am not sure that if that is the best phrase for it, but I think most of you will understand what I mean?), but I do see that he jumps into rescuer mode faster than I, personally, would like. He has made so much progress and I can see he is working hard and it is hard for me not to go into the "good try, but you can still do it better mode," which I am known to do at times.

His brother lives near us and I have been encouraging him to reach out. We are meeting him for a drink tonight and I said that he should mention everything to his brother. His brother is definitely less involved, but has done a great job of holding to boundaries with their mom and I think would be a good support for him. He was really helpful when their mom was in the hospital. I am really close with my siblings, so his reluctance is confusing for me. Are relationships like this typically more difficult for children of a BPD parent? Their father was also an abusive alcoholic to their mom so they grew up in a very chaotic environment.
[/quote]

I'm curious to know if she follows through as there seems to be a lot of back and forth.

And as I suspected, she is not going back to Florida today.

The past few days, she has been incredibly mopey, sad, and short. She is crying a lot. To watch her, it is like watching someone put on a comedic act of someone playing a sad person. Even her gait is different and she almost looks like she is wearing the mask of someone who has no affect and has this blank, distant look. She is always these things, but it has been more amplified. She hasn't really gotten out of bed and hadn't showered since she came home. (She finally did today, but it has been 3 days, and I suspect she only did because she was seeing the psychiatrist this morning) My husband and I are concerned because this is the same behavior we saw before she ended up in the hospital. When we expressed concern this morning, she even said something to the effect of "I am going to put myself back in the institution." We asked if we could come with her to the psychiatrist with her today because we were worried and encouraged her to tell the doctor these things. During her appointment, she didn't say much, so I chimed in and expressed the concerns we had. The doctor was concerned that she keeps making these trips to Florida without really planning appropriately and stressed that she needed to take time to talk to a therapist and to reduce her stress. The doctor also said that she has PTSD (which my husband and I have always known) and that she has to learn to how to work through those symptoms.

On our way home, we had another conversation where she again stressed that she doesn’t know where she is supposed to be. She said she likes Florida because she is engaged, she sees people, she has choices, she doesn’t have to live under our rules – all the things that she doesn’t have here. These are things that we have been saying all along, but it never holds any weight. She wants the choices that she has there, here and they are available to her, but it means that she has to leave the apartment alone and that she has to be more independent. She has to stop being helpless. These are all things that she does not want to do here. My husband actually said to her that our rules are not going to change and that if we ever have kids, they will be even firmer. He told her that we cannot have kids in this environment and that it will not be healthy for them if we are always having to fight her. He even told me that he thinks he has to talk to her and tell her that he has to move forward with his life and right now he cannot. That was definitely the most pointed comment we have ever made to her, but we have had conversations like this one several times before. I am so confused if we are handling this well. I know we have been trying to be patient, but does it sound like we are too patient? I know we will probably have to have a more specific conversation with her and I don’t know if that conversation was a continuation of the cycle that we always go through with her and if we are just putting ourselves in the position of feeling frustrated and confused all over again. Why are these interactions always so confusing?

[Harri]

But really, what should one say to a statement like that? Saying she is wanted and that she belongs here just reinforces the idea for her that she doesn't ever have to move on from this place. And saying that she isn't wanted or that she doesn't belong just feels mean. Everyone needs to feel wanted and like they belong, but there is no scenario where she can hear that and not continue to cling to us like her life depends on it.

You are right that you don't want to validate her words as truth.  You are also correct that she may not be able to hear anything you have to say.  That does not change the fact that the current situation can not stay as it is right?

Try using SET:

S(ympathy):  Wow, it must really hurt to feel that you are not wanted and don't belong here.
E(mpathy):  I would not like feeling that way either and I can understand how much it hurts.
T(ruth):   We do love you and care about you.  We also agreed that you would move out on your own and that has not changed for us. 

For more and better ideas of how to use SETin your situation read through the link. 

There really is no statement you can make that she is going to hear and not still have to battle her emotions and the fear of abandonment and being a victim here.  So deal with it in a straightforward, honest, kind manner that is in keeping with your values.

[Panda39]

Today, after walking her dog, she stormed in the house and stated that she wanted to go back to Florida tomorrow because she can't handle the cold. We thought she was kidding, but it quickly became apparent that she was serious

And as I suspected, she is not going back to Florida today.

Alot of this kind of stuff can be the old Feelings = Facts type of thing.

She took the dog for a walk on a cold uncomfortable day and it's so warm in Florida and besides (victim) no one wants me here...and she thinks I need to get out of here now!  She feels it in the moment, therefore it is real/true to her.  Alot of the 180's and confusion are likely her different feelings about things surfacing at various times. Then there is the implied guilt in this...it sucks here, they don't want me here, so I'm going back to Florida (Humph! picture a child with a their arms crossed and bottom lip sticking out)

Harri gave you a good tool in SET and a great example  .  I also want to share don't JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain) doing this can escalate the drama and lead to circular arguments that never end.  More on JADE... https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0

Your MIL can't or won't come to a decision about what she's going to do or when, so I think it may be up to you and your husband to make the decision for all of you, which I know is hard/uncomfortable but if you are ever going to get her to leave it maybe the only way. (this is not about being mean, this enforcing your boundary which is protecting the relationship you and your husband have)

Can you and your husband agree on and set a deadline to have her moved out?  I would set a reasonable deadline and offer to either look for an apartment near you (have the lease signed by the deadline) or arrange movers (to arrive for pick up by the deadline) to get her back down to her house in Florida (SIL or no SIL it is MIL's house).

Hang in there,
Panda39

[Spindle0516]

Thank you PJ, Harri and Panda for all of your feedback. It has been so helpful and my husband and I have been doing a lot of reflecting about all of this and how we can continue to approach our next conversation in a way that continues to help us move forward productively.

Alot of this kind of stuff can be the old Feelings = Facts type of thing.

I am glad that you reminded me of this. I had been trying to remember that, but I confess that in the heat of all of this, I’ve let that slip out of my brain. Her version of events is real to her and we have been doing a lot of disagreeing over what our initial agreement even was. Definitely JADE'ing a lot!

Following our next conversation, I am tempted to write up a summary of what we agree to for her to reference, but I am not sure if that would help or hurt. My motivation for this is that she was supposed to return here with an answer about my SIL’s decision. My MIL is convinced that we agreed to wait until March for an answer. I am 100% positive that this was not her understanding of our agreement when she left  (we even had her repeat back to us what she was supposed to accomplish while she was there), but during all the confusion while she was visiting, she convinced herself or her family convinced her, that she actually has more time than she does. So I wonder if a summery or a bullet point list would be a smart thing?

There really is no statement you can make that she is going to hear and not still have to battle her emotions and the fear of abandonment and being a victim here.  So deal with it in a straightforward, honest, kind manner that is in keeping with your values.

Harri, lately, I have noticed you mentioning allowing our BPD person to self soothe on a few threads, I think, and I feel like this is an instance where this may also be appropriate for us. I think PJ even mentioned somewhere here that my MIL’s emotions are hers to feel and not ours. I feel like I am 3 seconds away from hanging reminders of this all over our apartment. 

My husband has been really trying to keep this in the forefront of his mind as she has always used him as her emotional regulator. He has come to realize this, but in more uncomfortable moments, I see him jumping to try and cheer her up at all costs. He is very funny and he jumps into using humor as a means to help her feel better, but I wish, at times, he would just let her feel what she feels. I tend to be overly empathetic and if living with someone who is an uBPD has taught me anything, I see how this can be unhealthy as well. While, my husband uses humor, I tend to go into nurturing/caregiver mode, so between the 2 of us, I am sure we have definitely helped perpetuate the helplessness and dependency we see from her.

Anyway, I’ve been doing a lot of thinking about the way to approach our next conversation. I haven’t run through it with my husband yet, but I thought I would share an initial draft here and see what you guys think. How does something like this sound:

We have been doing a lot of talking about where you would like to live going forward. The three of us have come up with several different living situations that might be attractive to you, but there still seems to be some confusion over where you would like to live. We love you very much, and we are so glad that we were able to live together, but now it is time for us to start focusing on our own independent life together. At this point, it is important to us that we have time to focus on us so we think that it is time for you to find your own place to live. We need to know where you would like to move to by (insert date) so that we can start making appropriate preparations. Like we said, we love you so much, and we will continue to be here for you, but we think that all of us having some of our own space will actually help improve our relationship and we will enjoy the time we have together even more.

Thank you all. Being able to vent and debrief here has been so, so helpful. 

[Methuen]

I am entering this conversation late, and confess I read over it quickly, so perhaps am missing some important context and details, and not properly understanding, but this caught my attention:

My husband actually said to her that our rules are not going to change and that if we ever have kids, they will be even firmer. He told her that we cannot have kids in this environment and that it will not be healthy for them if we are always having to fight her. He even told me that he thinks he has to talk to her and tell her that he has to move forward with his life and right now he cannot.

What I am hearing from this (but perhaps not understanding correctly), is that his mother's behavior is preventing him from living his own life...  If I'm understanding that correctly, by telling her that, would he not be giving her a lot of power, and possibly even reinforcing her undesirable behaviors?  


 

[Harri]

We have been doing a lot of talking about where you would like to live going forward. The three of us have come up with several different living situations that might be attractive to you, but there still seems to be some confusion over where you would like to live. We love you very much, and we are so glad that we were able to live together, but now it is time for us to start focusing on our own independent life together.  At this point, it is important to us that we have time to focus on us so we think that it is time for you to find your own place to live. We need to know where you would like to move to by (insert date) so that we can start making appropriate preparations. Like we said, we love you so much, and we will continue to be here for you, but we think that all of us having some of our own space will actually help improve our relationship and we will enjoy the time we have together even more.

I feel pushy as I took the liberty to edit parts of your message to MIL.  I mean no offense and what you say is your call.  I really like your overall message.  My only concern is that it is a it long, hence a few edits and we might be able to shorten it even more if you want.

As for allowing your MIL to take care of her own emotions, yes, it is something we say a lot around here and maybe more so in recent posts.  Several people are in similar positions regarding trying to manage the feelings of their pwBPD.  We can be concerned and do our best to be kind and speak from a healthy place like you are, but there is only so much we can do.  Putting our lives and plans on hold is not a solution.  I used to look for just the right words and the right time and tone etc. and those just right times never came.  I twisted myself all around and for me all it did was make me angry and even more resentful than I already was.  And more time passed.  And then more time passed.  And then I spoke out while feeling angry and frustrated.  It was awful.  The pressure I put on myself was bad enough but all the guilt and obligation and then the guilt I felt for losing my cool?  My response back then was to get more angry.  I am not saying that will or is happening to you , just giving you an idea of where I am coming from. 

Methuen, I did not even catch that.  Interesting thought there.

[GaGrl]

What I'm hearing is that SIL has a very comfy situation in Florida, and the family in Florida doesn't want your MIL coming back and changing that comfy situation. I agree that SIL may have some issues of her own.

Does your MIL own the house?I
Is there a rental or occupation agreement between SI L and your MIL?
What does it mean for SIL to "return the house to its original condition"? Is SIL occupying the master bedroom/bath, for example?

It appears your MIL needs help dealing with your SIL, and perhaps your BIL can help with that. Everyone seems to be waiting for SI L to make some sort of decision, when SIL needs to be told by MIL what needs to happen and by when.I

But if SIL is uBPD, no one wants to deal with the fall-out.

Is this accurate?

[Spindle0516]

What I am hearing from this (but perhaps not understanding correctly), is that his mother's behavior is preventing him from living his own life...  If I'm understanding that correctly, by telling her that, would he not be giving her a lot of power, and possibly even reinforcing her undesirable behaviors?   

Methuen- I didn’t even look at it like that, but it is a really good point. Last night, my husband and I were talking and I said that I think we keep hoping for her to make a decision that will also serve us well, but that it is never going to happen. She is on the same page with us one minute, but the moment she gets overwhelmed or remembers something that makes her uncomfortable, she changes her mind. My BIL was over last night and basically told her that her best option is to take back her house and go back to Fl. She was on board until she remembered that it would mean finding new doctors and then she switched to staying here. While he was here though, she did say something alluding to the fact that she isn’t wanted here and knows we are going to kick her out soon. I think I am past the point of caring if it upsets her (that sounds kind of harsh, I know, but I am tired), but it makes it worse for my husband. My husband agrees with what I said, but he gets really overwhelmed when he thinks about us actually having this conversation with her and I see part of him shuts down. I am trying really hard to focus on the progress that he has made so that I don’t get too frustrated with him for it. And I want to do it when he feels ready- I want him to feel confident in the choices he makes. I think his brothers support has made a difference though and I hope that we will get there soon.

Harri- Not pushy at all. I appreciate it so much. After I posted, I thought it felt long too. When we say this to her, I know we may lose her quickly, so I think that saying a lot with as few words as possible, is important. How is this?

We have been doing a lot of talking about where you would like to live going forward. We love you very much and we have loved being able to live with you, but now it is time for us to focus on us and for you to find your own place to live. We love you and will continue to be here for you, but we think this will actually improve our relationship going forward. Please let us know where you want to go by (date TBD)

As for allowing your MIL to take care of her own emotions, yes, it is something we say a lot around here and maybe more so in recent posts.  Several people are in similar positions regarding trying to manage the feelings of their pwBPD.  We can be concerned and do our best to be kind and speak from a healthy place like you are, but there is only so much we can do.  Putting our lives and plans on hold is not a solution.  I used to look for just the right words and the right time and tone etc. and those just right times never came.  I twisted myself all around and for me all it did was make me angry and even more resentful than I already was.  And more time passed.  And then more time passed.  And then I spoke out while feeling angry and frustrated.  It was awful.  The pressure I put on myself was bad enough but all the guilt and obligation and then the guilt I felt for losing my cool?  My response back then was to get more angry.  I am not saying that will or is happening to you , just giving you an idea of where I am coming from. 

Harri- This resonates with me, but I really see my husband in this so much. I really worry about him. I see how much he beats himself up. On rare occasions, he has even punched or slapped his own face. His dad was a really abusive alcoholic and I know it terrifies him that he is just like him. (He is nothing like him, but when his mom is really dysregulated, she will say things like “You’re just like your father” and it sends him in a tailspin) He has made progress, and had been in therapy, but the therapist left the practice so now he has to find a new one. I actually read what you wrote to him, and he said, “That’s me.”

Gagrl- What you are hearing, is basically it, at least from the SIL’s prospective. MIL owns the house. SIL and MIL have a verbal agreement, which the SIL hasn’t upheld. They haven’t maintained the property well and a lot of things on the house have been damaged, so when my MIL says return it to the original condition, she means fix the things that have been broken. My MIL definitely does not know how to communicate with my SIL (or anyone really), but myself, husband and BIL do not want to get involved in that conversation since it really has to do with agreements between the two of them. My MIL keeps asking the three of us to talk to her, but we have all said that we will not. My MIL’s mom is panicking because she doesn’t want to deal with my SIL being upset and is taking that out on my MIL. This is all rather confusing, so I am sorry if it doesn’t really make sense. I think my husband and I have decided that we will need to have this chat with my MIL regardless of the outcome of her house/SIL. There are other places she can go in Florida or here and we cannot hinge our life on her. The next step, I think, is really just allowing my husband to process this a bit and have the actual conversation.

[Spindle0516]

Ugh. It has been a night and I feel like everything we have been working toward in terms of having this conversation with my MIL fell apart. I don't know if I am angry, disappointed, frustrated, or sad. Maybe a little bit of all of it?

My husband and I were going to talk tonight about how to go forward with this plan and conversation, but it took a detour when she asked us tonight why we want space without her. ( I just went to the kitchen to make a cup of tea and I am just realizing that I didn't even get to do that because this conversation was sprung on me.)

I am trying to remember the logistics, but I am getting flustered as I am also currently listening to my husband have a secondary conversation with my MIL and I am worried that it is undoing everything we have been working toward. I know that we said something to the effect of "We love you, but we need space just the two of us right now." And then she wanted to know exactly how often she can come visit and for how long if she moves back to FL. And she begged us to give her another year where she "floats" between the two places, but she can pay rent here even if she isn't using our apartment that month. I was trying really hard to pause the conversation by saying that we need time to look at our finances and explore these options before we can give her an answer and make a decision. I really just wanted to regroup and have a moment to talk to my husband about how we want to proceed.

We haven't really had time to even talk about Methuen's comment about putting too much power in her hands by possibly telling her that her behavior is preventing us from living our lives. So during this chaos, he said something to that effect to her and it blew up in our faces. She said that we once said we weren't having kids for another 2 years (we don't even remember saying that, but it was probably a passing comment in a random conversation) and didn't understand why this was in an issue and why we needed to proceed forward with this plan now.

We finally paused it and my husband and I decided to do some yoga to calm down before talking about what happened and what we should do. She came in and asked us to pause the video and read us a long, chaotic and somewhat disordered text message she sent to my SIL and that got upset when we were surprised/unhappy with what she did. We told her it didn't matter anymore if she sent it, that we were doing yoga and we can talk about it another time. After the yoga, I felt better and ready to talk to my husband, but he went by his mom's room to get something, and now they are having a long chat. And I feel heated all over again because I still haven't had time to talk to him and I have to wake up early for work.

I guess we will see how this plays out. I just needed to vent a second before he comes back. 

[Methuen]

I'm sorry this crisis happened.  You sound beaten down in your post.  You're going to get through this Spindle0506.  Believe it or not.  

I've had so many of these kinds of blowouts with my uBPD mom over my life, that they probably outnumber the candles on my BD cake easily.  But in the last 6 months, I've learned a few things that are helping me cope much better.  So I'm going to make a couple of suggestions, but they are NOT criticisms at all, only suggestions moving forward, which you might find helpful, or not.  I want to say that my whole life, I used to react to the "barbs" my mom would say to me, and I always reacted the way any normal healthy person would react in this situation, with justifications, arguements, defenses, and explanations.  It always ended like your night did tonight.  Very very badly. Everyone loses.  Now I'm learning new strategies.

My husband and I were going to talk tonight about how to go forward with this plan and conversation, but it took a detour when she asked us tonight why we want space without her.

From reading your post, it sounds like the situation tonight went super "sideways".  So, moving forward, what can you learn from it, to either lessen or prevent this kind of torture in the future?

When she "asked you why you want space without her" (a healthy person might think this an unreasonable question since you are married to each other, and not to her), did you and H answer or react with an immediate response?  Note that her question (why you want space without her) is an entirely emotional question.  It's all about her feelings.  It's also very inflammatory.  Your answer whatever it was, would have been a very typical and normal answer to such a question. But answering that question the way most healthy people would answer it is only going to add fuel to the fire for a BPD.   A healthy person wouldn't ask that question, but BPD's aren't healthy.

Instead of "reacting" to her provocative and emotional question immediately with an answer, could you and H say "we'll talk about this another time mom.  Wife & I have things to do together tonight" (go out for a walk or coffee).  Let's talk about this ___________ (tomorrow, or later in the weekend when we have more time...)  That sets a boundary.  It would also give you and H time to discuss your plan and be on the same page, and catch up with the discussions you haven't had a chance to have yet.  It would also S-L-O-W things down, give emotions a chance to cool, and give everyone time to think rationally, and plan a BPD friendly response, rather than a reactive one.  Also, by not answering her provocative and emotional question immediately, and stating that you can all talk about it at another mutually convenient time, you are taking back control of the situation.  Even though the blowout happened tonight, if she comes out swinging on the offensive with more yucky questions or statements tommorrow, you can still state that you all need some time to calm down and think, and reassure her again that you still love her (sounds like you already do an amazing job of this), and will talk about it ________ (tomorrow night, or early next week...?).  Maybe try SET?

How did your H feel about all this afterwards?  How did the conversation with his mom go?  Are you and H still on the same page?

You'll get through this.  It was a rough night.  Not your fault.  It's the BPD.  A classic case of it.  Hopefully you and H can move forward on a plan together from here.  You definitely need space to live your own married life.  You and H can't be responsible for her.  She is an adult, and is capable of living her own life.

 

[Spindle0516]

So, moving forward, what can you learn from it, to either lessen or prevent this kind of torture in the future?

Thank you, Methuen. I think what makes this so hard is that it is two of us learning how to cope, respond and process the realization that my MIL is uBPD, not just one of us. And on top of that, one of us was raised by this person. Of my husband’s two parents, his mom was always the more "stable" one- she tried in her own way to be a really good mom and was actually there for my husband in a lot of the ways a mom should be. (She always had these BPD tendencies, but they have amplified as she has gotten older.) My husband knows this and loves her dearly for it, as he should.

While I was not raised by someone with BPD, I know that I am an overly empathetic person and this board has helped me realize how this can also be unhealthy at times. I have always felt deeply the pain and suffering of others, and as I grew up, I made it my personal mission to always be there for people who were suffering, especially people who don't have anyone. This is often at my own expense and I never cared if it was inconvenient to me if it meant that someone else's suffering was eased. I, most of the time, still feel this way.

So then, my husband and I met 5 years ago, got married and have been coping with his uBPD mom living with us for 3 years. We are still in our first year of marriage. And we are tired. These things that are ingrained in us, my husband's love for his mom, my overly empathetic self, have probably allowed us to tread water for as long as we have. Now, we learn about BPD, but the two of us are very different- I learn or read about a new skill or coping mechanism, and I want to jump right in and practice it. My husband takes more time to process it before he can proceed with any kind of change. Neither are wrong, just different. So I often think we are the same page because we had a brief conversation about a new way to interact with his mom. I am ready to proceed, he is still processing, and when something like what happened last night happens, he goes back to what he knows works. And I get upset because he didn’t do what we talked about for the first time ever the day before.

Does this make sense? Sometimes, it isn’t just about learning how to interact with his mom better, but also how my husband and I can support and communicate with each other as we learn new ways to interact with his mom. At times, it just feels really complicated and overwhelming. Not, “I don’t want to be here in this with you” complicated and overwhelming, just a lot.

So, anyway, last night was really hard. I didn’t sleep well from anxiety and now I am at the airport, reading your questions, and trying not to cry in front of my coworkers. BUT, I am calmer, and thinking more clearly and what I wrote above is just clicking for the first time.

When she "asked you why you want space without her" (a healthy person might think this an unreasonable question since you are married to each other, and not to her), did you and H answer or react with an immediate response?  Note that her question (why you want space without her) is an entirely emotional question.  It's all about her feelings.  It's also very inflammatory.  Your answer whatever it was, would have been a very typical and normal answer to such a question. But answering that question the way most healthy people would answer it is only going to add fuel to the fire for a BPD.   A healthy person wouldn't ask that question, but BPD's aren't healthy.

You're right- Last night went very sideways. And upon reflection, I think we might have attempted to have a thoughtful response, but it definitely escalated to a more emotional reaction. There was a definite attempt at using SET from both of us, but I am not sure how successful we were at it. We should have said immediately that we will talk another time, but it is hard to be telepathic with your husband, when she is sitting right there!  I am guessing that this reaction will get better with time the more we practice it.

Following his one on one conversation with his mom, I think part of him felt calmer, but he was so, so sad. He fell asleep crying and kept saying things like, “I just love her so much” and “The mom I used to have is gone.” It was heartbreaking. And I know he has a lot of guilt for not handling things the way he wants to and for me having to be in this situation. (I encouraged him to start looking for a new therapist again so that he can learn how to process and cope with all of it.)

I do think that on some levels, it was a productive conversation. She is convinced that it is me that wants her gone, not him. He really emphasized that 1. It is both of us that want space and 2. That she is really mean to me a lot and that it isn’t fun for me. She, for the first time ever, came into our room and apologized for how awful she can be, how she wants to be a good MIL, how she wants a relationship with me, and also apologized for not coming to my bridal shower or wedding dress shopping- all things that I would have loved to included her in. I appreciated it and I know that in that moment she meant it. But I also know that this wave will only last so long.

How did your H feel about all this afterwards?  How did the conversation with his mom go?  Are you and H still on the same page?

When my husband came back to our room, he said that he knew I was going to say that the calm won’t last before I even formed the words on my lips. I think he was able to get things off his chest that he has been wanting to say for a long time. Some things have been said before, some were new, but I worry that it will continue to put the power in her hands- most of it were along the lines of how we have been working really hard to give her opportunities she says she wants, how she is inconsistent with what she says she wants and it is frustrating. He explained that within a 15 min conversation she stated 3 different plans on how she wants to proceed. He told her how much he loves her and how he always wants her to feel a sense of home around him, but that he needs to live his life and she is preventing that. (I feel like it might have been more JADEing, but for some reason, no matter how much I read about it, this concept confuses me. I think we do it a lot. We have been trying to use the DEAR MAN acronym that we read about I think somewhere here?)

And honestly, now, I don’t even know what to do or how to proceed. I don’t know if what I wrote here yesterday morning is still an appropriate way to move forward. My husband had time to talk to me last night about their conversation, but I was really tired and said that we would need to continue the conversation later tonight, probably. I feel hurt that he didn’t talk to me first, but he said that the conversation with her was sprung on him again, so I don’t know if it is fair that I feel hurt for it. I think I just feel really confused and really sad that all of this is happening. I don’t want to amplify the sense of guilt that my husband has and I don’t want him to unravel in this. I worry about how he will cope if she leaves since she always uses him to help her regulate her emotions. And in turn, I worry about how that will affect me and our relationship. While he says he knows in his core this is the right move, I for some reason still feel responsible.

(Sorry that this is so longggg)

[Methuen]

Hi Spindle0516

Glad to hear you were feeling calmer this morning.  That may or may not last .  

 

I think what makes this so hard is that it is two of us learning how to cope, respond and process the realization that my MIL is uBPD, not just one of us. And on top of that, one of us was raised by this person. Of my husband’s two parents, his mom was always the more "stable" one- she tried in her own way to be a really good mom and was actually there for my husband in a lot of the ways a mom should be. (She always had these BPD tendencies, but they have amplified as she has gotten older.) My husband knows this and loves her dearly for it, as he should.

I can relate.  My mom also did the "best she could" when she was raising me.  It wasn't all bad for me back then either.  I do have good memories, as well as bad ones like your H does.  As her daughter, I am in your H's position, and my H is in your position. I didn't come to begin learning about BPD until 6 months ago.  It has been a steep learning curve.  Like you, my husband has done the learning beside and along with me - to support me yes - but also because it helps him.  A less distraught wife means a more content homelife for him.  He has read STOE, and attends my therapy sessions with me, because we both believe that two brains working together can achieve more when it comes to navigating a relationship with a BPD.  For me as the daughter of a BPD, I like having him there.  Because he is part of the conversations, he is learning as much as I am from T, and can "check me" at home when I am unclear on how to proceed because of the emotional enmeshment I was raised with.  Honestly, I sometimes don't know how a "normal" person would respond to something my mom says or does.  So, as the analytical one, he supports me with these things, and also checks me on FOG, because as a child of a BPD, I'm only now starting to learn what is normal to feel, and what is FOG.  I think I recall you mentioned your H has a T (or has seen one in the past).  My memory isn't serving me well on this, so I'm not sure if he or both of you are getting T support currently with these issues (especially the practical aspect of how to get his mom to make the decision she needs to move out). I have found my T to be very helpful and validating, and she has helped us move forward and navigate some tricky situations in the past few months.  

Confession - I'm too lazy to re-read the whole thread to fact check (and my memory is failing me), but does your H completely accept his mom's BPD, and appreciate the long term effect this may have had on him?  On this board, there are sons/daughters of BPD's who do, and others who staunchly defend their BPD parent and remain emotionally enmeshed with them, so how one moves forward will depend on that.  The spouses are always impacted either way with a BPD MIL.  I think supportive spouses play a critical role in learning to navigate a BPD relationship in more healthy ways, and you sound like you are doing an amazing job of that, and working very hard at it.    Your spouse is fortunate to have you

I learn or read about a new skill or coping mechanism, and I want to jump right in and practice it. My husband takes more time to process it before he can proceed with any kind of change. Neither are wrong, just different. So I often think we are the same page because we had a brief conversation about a new way to interact with his mom. I am ready to proceed, he is still processing, and when something like what happened last night happens, he goes back to what he knows works. And I get upset because he didn’t do what we talked about for the first time ever the day before.

Does this make sense? Sometimes, it isn’t just about learning how to interact with his mom better, but also how my husband and I can support and communicate with each other as we learn new ways to interact with his mom. At times, it just feels really complicated and overwhelming.

This makes total sense.  He is the enmeshed one, so it's likely going to be harder for him.  I think it's been a lot harder for me than for my H.  I also wonder if a psychologist or psychiatrist would say it's harder for the sons than the daughters?  Just a question I'm curious about, if anyone reading this has any thoughts about that.

You're right- Last night went very sideways. And upon reflection, I think we might have attempted to have a thoughtful response, but it definitely escalated to a more emotional reaction. There was a definite attempt at using SET from both of us, but I am not sure how successful we were at it. We should have said immediately that we will talk another time, but it is hard to be telepathic with your husband, when she is sitting right there!

I think if SET isn't working, it's a hint that everybody could use a time out to let emotions calm down, so that a BPD friendly response plan can be formed.  She won't want to hear this when she's in BPD emotional overload mode.  When I did this once with my mom, she left the house with such a door slam the whole house rocked.  We all survived.  A cooling off period was the only thing we could do.

Do you think your husband would be OK with you suggesting everybody take a break and come back to the discussion when things are calmer?  OR, do you think he would be able to suggest this in the future? In the heat of the moment, it can be a hard thing to do.  Count on her "pusing back" (because she is on emotional overload and "can't" let go), and so one must stick to the simple script of everybody taking a time out to let things calm down.

He fell asleep crying and kept saying things like, “I just love her so much” and “The mom I used to have is gone.”

This sounds like it could be grief.  It's a natural stage in healing, if it is.  I went through this too Spindle0516.  Think about it.  Up until now, he's believed the mom he had was wonderful.  When the BPD realization hits, it's like being run over by a train.  It takes time to process that the mom you thought you had, is different than the one you really have.  It's a lot to reconcile with.  I actually see his crying as a huge positive.  At least he let it out (he's not stuffing it), and at least he let you see it.  I think that's huge.  I don't think I can say how long my grief stage lasted, because I didn't realize what it was until I was through the worst of it.  

He really emphasized that 1. It is both of us that want space and 2. That she is really mean to me a lot and that it isn’t fun for me.

This is fantastic!  It means he's not in denial    It also means he can set boundaries with her  

He told her how much he loves her and how he always wants her to feel a sense of home around him, but that he needs to live his life and she is preventing that.

So I would suggest putting a period after the word life, and leaving the "and she is preventing that" out completely (because it gives her power, and because it assigns guilt).  How do you think your H would feel about that?  

I feel like it might have been more JADEing, but for some reason, no matter how much I read about it, this concept confuses me

I can relate.  I think that's because almost everybody uses JADEing in everyday life, in shopping and business, and politics and trade, with friends/families/coworkers in conversations in all kinds of environments.  It generally works when having rational discussions and solving problems.  But it doesn't work when things get emotional, so it doesn't work for BPD's, and until we figure that out, it's kind of confusing to realize that what has always worked in almost every situation, doesn't work with a BPD.  At least that's how I've come to think of it.  Other's may differ.

I feel hurt that he didn’t talk to me first, but he said that the conversation with her was sprung on him again, so I don’t know if it is fair that I feel hurt for it.

OK, so the tactic of surprise worked for her.  What if he were to tell her they could talk later, after the "dust" settles, to buy himself some time to collect his thoughts and prepare a BPD friendly response, and also have a discussion with you first?  Is this something he thinks he could do?  

Your feelings are your feelings.  We are all entitled to our feelings.  I think feeling hurt would be pretty normal.  Perhaps moving forward there is another way?

I worry about how he will cope if she leaves since she always uses him to help her regulate her emotions.

What has helped me is educating myself about BPD, the support of my H, this board, and my T.  You sound like a "rock" for your H.  He will figure it out.  It sounds like he is well on his way.  It's not going to be easy, but it will be worth it.

And in turn, I worry about how that will affect me and our relationship.

Ah, the key word here is "worry".   I acknowledge I have been a "worrier" my whole life.  My T helped me with this.  She pointed out that always worrying about something in the future causes anxiety, and always thinking about something in the past causes depression.  Instead, life in the present.  That has helped me immensely.  I dabble in mindfulness now, which helps me.

While he says he knows in his core this is the right move, I for some reason still feel responsible.

You are not responsible for her BPD.  Let go of that.  It's not yours to carry.  

Instead, you and your H can keep working together on ways to move forward.

(Sorry that this is so longggg)

I could say the same!
 

[Spindle0516]

I can relate.  My mom also did the "best she could" when she was raising me.  It wasn't all bad for me back then either.  I do have good memories, as well as bad ones like your H does.  As her daughter, I am in your H's position, and my H is in your position. I didn't come to begin learning about BPD until 6 months ago.  It has been a steep learning curve.  Like you, my husband has done the learning beside and along with me - to support me yes - but also because it helps him.  A less distraught wife means a more content homelife for him.  

I think my husband would say that this still holds true!  Living in the same house, and her learning that she is not the one running the house, has been a great source of conflict. I frequently felt undermined when she would purposefully do things in a way that differed from something my husband and I established.

He has read STOE, and attends my therapy sessions with me, because we both believe that two brains working together can achieve more when it comes to navigating a relationship with a BPD.  For me as the daughter of a BPD, I like having him there.  Because he is part of the conversations, he is learning as much as I am from T, and can "check me" at home when I am unclear on how to proceed because of the emotional enmeshment I was raised with.  Honestly, I sometimes don't know how a "normal" person would respond to something my mom says or does.  So, as the analytical one, he supports me with these things, and also checks me on FOG, because as a child of a BPD, I'm only now starting to learn what is normal to feel, and what is FOG.  I think I recall you mentioned your H has a T (or has seen one in the past).  My memory isn't serving me well on this, so I'm not sure if he or both of you are getting T support currently with these issues (especially the practical aspect of how to get his mom to make the decision she needs to move out). I have found my T to be very helpful and validating, and she has helped us move forward and navigate some tricky situations in the past few months.  

Confession - I'm too lazy to re-read the whole thread to fact check (and my memory is failing me), but does your H completely accept his mom's BPD, and appreciate the long term effect this may have had on him?  On this board, there are sons/daughters of BPD's who do, and others who staunchly defend their BPD parent and remain emotionally enmeshed with them, so how one moves forward will depend on that.  The spouses are always impacted either way with a BPD MIL.  I think supportive spouses play a critical role in learning to navigate a BPD relationship in more healthy ways, and you sound like you are doing an amazing job of that, and working very hard at it.    Your spouse is fortunate to have you

No worries- I completely understand- this is a long thread! I have read SWOE and shared a lot of it with him. We also own it and he will reference pieces of it as he needs to, but he has said it overwhelms him to sit down and read the whole thing.We also own it and he will reference pieces of it as he needs to, but he has said it overwhelms him to sit down and read the whole thing. He had a therapist who was wonderful and he made so much progress in understanding and managing his thoughts/emotions/anxiety/actions, but she left the practice and he hasn’t been able to find a new one yet. We also saw one together to help us learn how to manage our interactions with MIL together. She was great at helping us identify that we were likely dealing with BPD, but we recently decided to stop seeing her. She often felt too biased against his mom and we didn’t feel like we were learning useful tools in helping us interact with her better.

So the short answer is that we have both been in therapy individually and together, but currently are not. This is currently on our to-do list.

This makes total sense.  He is the enmeshed one, so it's likely going to be harder for him.  I think it's been a lot harder for me than for my H.  I also wonder if a psychologist or psychiatrist would say it's harder for the sons than the daughters?  Just a question I'm curious about, if anyone reading this has any thoughts about that.

This is a really interesting thought. I am curious too. Today, she told us that she thinks she is going to have my SIL move out (Today’s new plan. Let’s see how it changes by tonight. We have kind of stopped responding to these.) After telling us this though, she started crying and saying to my H that she has never lived away from him and she doesn’t think she can do it. This is also not true. My husband lived out of state for about 2 years and returned when her health started to decline. We used SET here by saying, “We know that living on your own is scary and it must feel overwhelming thinking about it” and it worked to alleviate any further conflict and I think she felt heard. We also said that we love her and will always be here for her. We reminded her that her moving does not mean she will never see us again.

She seems to think that when we asked her if she wants to come to NY, we meant “come to NY and live with us forever.” She asks it in the form of a question, and is confused that now we want space when we decided three years ago "to live together forever." My husband and I weren't even engaged at the time, so there was no way of knowing what "forever" looked like. She was much sicker at the time and her health has improved. Saying that to her is tricky though because we have definitely seen a pattern where being unwell works to her advantage

Do you think your husband would be OK with you suggesting everybody take a break and come back to the discussion when things are calmer?  OR, do you think he would be able to suggest this in the future? In the heat of the moment, it can be a hard thing to do.  Count on her "pusing back" (because she is on emotional overload and "can't" let go), and so one must stick to the simple script of everybody taking a time out to let things calm down.

I spoke to him about this last night and he agreed that in hindsight that would have been the best thing to do for that conversation. We agreed that if one of us says this going forward, it would be a cue for both of us to exit the conversation and regroup.

This sounds like it could be grief.  It's a natural stage in healing, if it is.  I went through this too Spindle0516.  Think about it.  Up until now, he's believed the mom he had was wonderful.  When the BPD realization hits, it's like being run over by a train.  It takes time to process that the mom you thought you had, is different than the one you really have.  It's a lot to reconcile with.  I actually see his crying as a huge positive.  At least he let it out (he's not stuffing it), and at least he let you see it.  I think that's huge.  I don't think I can say how long my grief stage lasted, because I didn't realize what it was until I was through the worst of it.   

I can only imagine how difficult it is. He told me the other day that he feels guilty about it, but that at times he feels resentful of the family that I grew up with. We are close, and I think he is just beginning to realize that they love him without condition or expectations from him. He said that is hard for him to be close to people without feeling like he has to be responsible for them in the way that he is for his mom. We talked about this for a long time and I am thinking that him even recognizing it is huge?

So I would suggest putting a period after the word life, and leaving the "and she is preventing that" out completely (because it gives her power, and because it assigns guilt).  How do you think your H would feel about that? 

I agree. And I think my husband is also seeing how him saying that she is preventing that has made things more complicated. This morning, while crying about never living apart from my husband, she also said out of nowhere, “and I would never hurt your children.” She has decided that him saying, “You’re preventing me from living my life” means we think she will hurt the kids. We don't even have kids!

I have to admit that I am very uncomfortable with her possibly being alone with any children that we may have in the future, but that is the future, and that was not the intention of his statement. But it has definitely complicated that conversation and now we are also not sure how to address this. Communicating with a BPD effectively requires your brain to fire on all cylinders!

I can relate.  I think that's because almost everybody uses JADEing in everyday life, in shopping and business, and politics and trade, with friends/families/coworkers in conversations in all kinds of environments.  It generally works when having rational discussions and solving problems.  But it doesn't work when things get emotional, so it doesn't work for BPD's, and until we figure that out, it's kind of confusing to realize that what has always worked in almost every situation, doesn't work with a BPD.  At least that's how I've come to think of it.  Other's may differ.

I love looking at it like this and I think it actually helps me understand the concept better!

OK, so the tactic of surprise worked for her.  What if he were to tell her they could talk later, after the "dust" settles, to buy himself some time to collect his thoughts and prepare a BPD friendly response, and also have a discussion with you first?  Is this something he thinks he could do? 

Also spoke to him about this and he said he would also do this going forward if the conversation looks like it is going in that direction.

Ah, the key word here is "worry".   I acknowledge I have been a "worrier" my whole life.  My T helped me with this.  She pointed out that always worrying about something in the future causes anxiety, and always thinking about something in the past causes depression.  Instead, life in the present.  That has helped me immensely.  I dabble in mindfulness now, which helps me.

Ah. So true. My parents should have made my middle name “Worry.” Yoga helps me a lot with this, but in really tense moments like we have had…well, you know.

You are not responsible for her BPD.  Let go of that.  It's not yours to carry. 
 

Thank you for this reminder.


As I mentioned, she told us today that she officially decided that she is going to take back the house in full and have my SIL move out. So the tricky thing is how to proceed. We told her to sit on that for a day because she changes her mind A LOT and that there will be waves when she says this. Apart from being concerned that my SIL's partner will damage the house more, we are trying to coach her through appropriate responses and statements. And she is dealing with her mom screaming at her for making these decisions which almost always causes my MIL to act out in other ways. Supporting her through this while not getting sucked into their family chaos has been like walking a tightrope, so my husband and I also want time to think about this. How do you coach an uBPD communicating appropriately with another uBPD? 

[Methuen]

We used SET here by saying, “We know that living on your own is scary and it must feel overwhelming thinking about it” and it worked to alleviate any further conflict and I think she felt heard. We also said that we love her and will always be here for her. We reminded her that her moving does not mean she will never see us again.

Well done!    I hope I can do as well as you, the next time I need to.  I think for me the SET skill will take some time to feel "natural".

(As an aside, I would like to suggest putting this SET example on the Celebrate Success thread I started.  I was hoping to build up a list of examples of new skills learned and used, from members of the board, to celebrate our little successes, and so that we can all observe and learn from the successes of others, and maybe catch an idea or two for ourselves in the process.  Kind of a mini-library of baby step success stories)

Saying that to her is tricky though because we have definitely seen a pattern where being unwell works to her advantage

Yes yes.  I think this is often a pattern with borderlines.  I have read that once they start "doing well", they are more likely to have an emotional dysregulation because once they are "doing well" it means their support may leave (abandonment).  Since abandonment is what they fear most, they dysregulate. So my memory thinks the message was NOT to tell them how well they are doing (even if they are), because that can actually trigger the fear of abandonment, and thus the emotional dysregulation behaviors  

She seems to think that when we asked her if she wants to come to NY, we meant “come to NY and live with us forever.” She asks it in the form of a question, and is confused that now we want space when we decided three years ago "to live together forever." My husband and I weren't even engaged at the time, so there was no way of knowing what "forever" looked like. She was much sicker at the time and her health has improved.

This sounds like classic Borderline thinking.  It's illogical when it's analysed.  It doesn't really matter what you meant or what she thought 3 years ago.  A rational healthy person would understand that circumstances change every day in life, and we all need to be adaptable and change with the times.  Nothing stays the same.  But it would be counterproductive to tell her this, and would probably trigger her into another blowout.  She's looking at it from a black and white point of view, and her emotions=her facts.  Personally I would probably not even engage in this conversation with her.  It's just baiting for an arguement/conflict.  I don't see how anything good could come out of going down that road.  Better to just keep moving forward with your excellent SET example above, and just stick to that simple script. Repeat.  Repeat again.

Today, she told us that she thinks she is going to have my SIL move out

This is good news, NOT because of the content of her message (we know she changes her mind all the time), but because it shows she IS thinking, and trying to work a solution.  This makes me think that validating questions would be a good tool at this stage.  You are probably already familiar with this, but I review this link on a fairly frequent basis for myself, as it's still a relatively new skill for me.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=273415.0

My metaphor for validating questions is either cowboys or sheepdogs.  The validating questions are either the cowboys guiding the cows (or the sheepdogs guiding the sheep) in the direction they are meant to go.  The cows and the sheep actually make the decision, but the questions help guide them to the decision.  Does that make any sense?  If H's mother can be gently guided to make her own decision, you guys can then support with the logistics to make it happen, and theoretically, the process should run more smoothly.

I spoke to him about this last night and he agreed that in hindsight that would have been the best thing to do for that conversation. We agreed that if one of us says this going forward, it would be a cue for both of us to exit the conversation and regroup.

Yay!    Exit gently

but that at times he feels resentful of the family that I grew up with.

I think this is pretty normal.  I have two best friends in my town.  They have wonderful mothers that they both have close relationships with.  How could I not be envious of that?  He used the word "resentful", but do you think it could be envy instead?  Totally normal.  I think it would be more abnormal NOT to feel envy.

He said that is hard for him to be close to people without feeling like he has to be responsible for them in the way that he is for his mom. We talked about this for a long time and I am thinking that him even recognizing it is huge?

Yep, I think it's huge.  Awareness is step 1.  I became "aware" last August/September/October after some pretty nasty stuff that happened through a prolonged 3 month dysregulation with my mom.  Since then, with work, and a lot of support from people on this board, I feel like I've made "some" progress towards not feeling like I have to be "responsible" for my mom, and all of her feelings.  I only say this, to encourage you that once the awareness is there, it can get better.  

Your H's statement is interesting, because it suggests that getting "close" to people = responsibility.   What does "responsibility" for his mom, mean to him?

She needs to feel in control of her own life, but her BPD is going to want him to feel responsible for her.  It's messy.  She's raised and trained him to feel like he's responsible for her,  but he can un-learn that once the awareness is there.  That's what I'm working on now.  It's a work in progress.  Sounds like he's aware too.

This morning, while crying about never living apart from my husband, she also said out of nowhere, “and I would never hurt your children.” She has decided that him saying, “You’re preventing me from living my life” means we think she will hurt the kids. We don't even have kids!

Maybe, but maybe not.  She may have said "and I would never hurt your children" based on a personal experience from her past...  It's a strange thing for her to say, without having some experience to trigger such a thought.  Is it possible she was abused in some way in her childhood?  Many (not all) BPD's have the experience of coming from dysfunctional families, or may have experienced abuse from someone in their childhood, and they developed unhealthy mechanisms to cope with the abuse, which ends up as BPD.  I wouldn't ask her about it, but it's something to be aware of, since it was such an "out in left field" kind of comment.  

I have to admit that I am very uncomfortable with her possibly being alone with any children that we may have in the future, but that is the future, and that was not the intention of his statement. But it has definitely complicated that conversation and now we are also not sure how to address this.

Yes that is the future.  If it's any comfort, my mom was a pretty devoted gramma to our kids.  It made her feel needed, and she thrived on that.  It wasn't perfect as one of them was the golden child, and the other had that figured out before she was 8, unfortunately.  Making my mom aware of it made no difference.  My mom (gramma) enmeshed the GC pretty good, but he (25 yrs old) lives 6 hours away now, and has a beginner's level of awareness of his gramma's issues.  Overall, she was a good gramma.  You and H are miles ahead of us, because back when we had kids, we had never even heard of BPD, and it still all worked out ok. I wouldn't worry too much about the "I would never hurt your children" comment right now.  

H's mom is sounding super emotional.   My experience with my mom is things don't get better until her emotions become regulated again.  Stress and change bring on dysregulation.  As long as the emotions are as high as Mt McKinley, progress is difficult, and chaos can be constant.  Keep using SET and validating questions.  It's so much harder for you, because she lives with you.  

Apart from being concerned that my SIL's partner will damage the house more, we are trying to coach her through appropriate responses and statements. And she is dealing with her mom screaming at her for making these decisions which almost always causes my MIL to act out in other ways.

So this is out of your control.  I wouldn't worry about it.  If he's gonna do that, he gonna do it.  The good thing is, those physical house problems can be fixed.  It's an inconvenience, but still easily fixable.

Dealing with her mom screaming at her for these decisions, that is harder.  Does her mom have to know?  Does your mom have to tell her?  Could you ask validating questions to get her to figure out she should make her own decision and not involve her mother (since her mother thoughts don't help her)?  Maybe that's not possible.  Just a thought.  Probably not a very good one.

Honestly if she has to worry about SIL's H damaging the house, it's probably time she get back there and look after her own house the way she wants to.  

Supporting her through this while not getting sucked into their family chaos has been like walking a tightrope, so my husband and I also want time to think about this. How do you coach an uBPD communicating appropriately with another uBPD?  

Use strategies that will help her regulate her emotions again.  Say good things about the house in FL.  Re-tell stories about happy memories of it over a nice dinner.  Build a good emotional feeling around that house, so she figures out she wants to go back to it.  Maybe ask if it would be ok if you came and visited her there?  Maybe write a few things down on paper that she has figured out to say to SIL on the phone (about moving back to her house), so she is less anxious when the time comes to talk to her?  That's all I've got.

 

[Spindle0516]

Your H's statement is interesting, because it suggests that getting "close" to people = responsibility.   What does "responsibility" for his mom, mean to him?

Hmmm. This is a good question. I think I might pose this to him and see what he thinks.

Is it possible she was abused in some way in her childhood?  

We know that something happened when she was kid with her dad, but we don't know exactly what. She gets along with her mom fairly well, but it does seem like she often does what is necessary to not make waves and did not really protect her the way she should have been.

I also know that she was in two severely abusive marriages, the second being with my husband's father. When she was pregnant with my BIL, he had her pinned to the floor on her belly and kept slamming her up and down. My husband's older sister was young and watched this happen. His older sister went on the have a drug addiction and has been diagnosed as BPD and schizophrenic. She disappeared for several years and we are fairly certain that she was being prostituted  by her drug dealer, but details are scattered.  His younger sister is the one living in the house and we believe she is uBPD. When my husband was young, his dad pulled the phone out of the wall and slammed it into my MIL's head and it fractured her skull.  That is just one of many scary incidents.

MIL has been diagnosed with PTSD. It is really quite sad- so many people failed to protect her. I know my husband worries about this and to be honest, I often feel like we are just abandoning her when so many people have failed her. I know it isn't the case, but at times I know we both struggle with that feeling.

It made her feel needed, and she thrived on that.  It wasn't perfect as one of them was the golden child, and the other had that figured out before she was 8, unfortunately.

I do think she would be a wonderful grandma in some ways- she is to our niece and nephew. BUT, she already uses our niece to meet her emotional needs as well and obviously favors her over our nephew.  I was going to post this in another thread, but seeing their family history with mental health disorders and unhealthy and boundriless relationships makes me nervous about having kids. I want to protect them from that- and so would my husband- but it is still scary to witness. I know kids don't come with guarantees, but it does leave me unsettled at times.

Dealing with her mom screaming at her for these decisions, that is harder.  Does her mom have to know?  Does your mom have to tell her?  Could you ask validating questions to get her to figure out she should make her own decision and not involve her mother (since her mother thoughts don't help her)?  

We keep encouraging her not to talk to her about it and I think it is sinking it, but SIL will not respond to my MIL and runs to my MIL's mom. SIL is getting what she wants- delaying any decision making and garnering sympathy.

Thanks again for listening. 

[Harri]

Hi Spindle.

I think you are doing very well here.  None of this is easy and none of the new ways to communicate with a person with BPD or BPD traits are intuitive.  It all takes time and practice and we evolve over that time too so things change.

Something you wrote caught my eye.  I see it a lot here on the different boards and I spend a lot of time thinking about it.  I was abused a a kid and even as an adult.  Some of it was pretty bad.  Some of my life was good.  Overall though, the few people I talked with seem to think I had it bad.  sometimes i can agree with that assessment.  I have reached the point where the degree of abuse does not matter all that much.  it is all bad.

So anyway, this caught my eye:

MIL has been diagnosed with PTSD. It is really quite sad- so many people failed to protect her. I know my husband worries about this and to be honest, I often feel like we are just abandoning her when so many people have failed her. I know it isn't the case, but at times I know we both struggle with that feeling.

I have PTSD.  It is mostly under control now but it can rear it's ugly head and become obvious, usually only to me, although it is always there too.  Anyway, yes, people failed to protect your MIL and it is tragic and sad.  They should have when she was a kid and while she was still a victim.  I think though, and I say this about me, there came a point when I had to realize that no one was going to rescue me.  It was a hard hard lesson that I learned from people in the real word and their reactions to me.  Some people were not so pleasant.  Others took the time to set limits, to use boundaries and not stand for my craptacular behaviors.  They never abandoned me but they did not coddle or make excuses for me.  They had my back while smacking my behind at the same time ... okay not literally but you get the idea.

Those who ignored, felt bad, gave me a break because of whatever, did me no favors.  Not for me and not for them.  I did not see that at the time.  I was angry as hell.  But I was also aware enough to know and respect the fact that some never gave up on me and even more, that they would not tolerate me acting the way I did.

I thought I would mention that as so many time people, even me in spite of everything I learned the hard way, think we are being cruel or adding to a persons pain when we are simply setting boundaries in a respectful and kind way... regardless of how that person may react.  Let them have their reaction.  allow them the opportunity to learn to cope and the possibility of seeing a different way of being (even if it is a long shot).  It is their only hope.  On top of that someones pain, bad experiences and bad luck in life does not require enabling or coddling.  Rather it requires love, and discipline and sometimes that means not getting their own way.

Have you read the following article?  The Do's and Don'ts in a BPD Relationship  It is written more for a romantic relationship but you can take what is there and apply it to any relationship.

Oh... and sorry for the tangent I went on there.  

[Spindle0516]

Harri- thank you for that thoughtful reply.

On top of that someones pain, bad experiences and bad luck in life does not require enabling or coddling.  Rather it requires love, and discipline and sometimes that means not getting their own way.

This helps me reframe the way I look at it. Sometimes it feels like we have a 5 year old and we are teaching them social skills they need to succeed in life!

[Harri]

This thread reached the post limit and has been locked and split.  The discussion continues here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=342508.msg13097610#msg13097610

Thank you.