Boundaries

[UBPDHelp]

I have a question about boundaries. My story is in a post titled “I just don’t know” if you are interested.

Before I even had a clue about BPD, and my H would ask me questions about my past, I was very forthcoming. I definitely made some mistakes and a few things I’m not proud of, but nothing crazy or so different than a lot of people. I was honest but as the years have gone by, he has become downright obsessed with me sleeping with a previous boyfriend.  One boyfriend I dated for 3 years before we did (I was young).

He’s asked questions, grilled me, etc.  I’ve answered them over and over. I thought the answers would put it to rest. Nope.

At this point, I’m just so sick of talking about it. So tired of it.

When I tell him I’m done, he rages. If I do answer, he rages. Whenever something “triggers” him, it starts the conversation over again.

How do I set a boundary to never discuss this again...it’s been discussed no less than a thousand times. Why does the boundary make him rage?  Will that stop?

Is there any point because I will honestly be a 70 yo grandmother being called a slut. How can that be normal? 

I still have 2 youngish kids and worry about how a divorce battle will impact them, knowing this situation isn’t really better (he doesn’t do this to them, but sometimes loses his temper about small things, but mostly okay with the kids).  My older 2 are almost self sufficient so less risk there.

Any boundary insight/suggestions are welcome.

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RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Ozzie101]

I still struggle with boundaries myself, so I'm sure other members will be able to give you more help than I can.

But one thing that's very important is consistency. Have a response prepared for whenever he brings this topic up and respond that way every time. If you set the boundary sometimes and answer his question sometimes, that's not going to be effective in getting him to stop.

Have you talked to him about it in a calm time? Used SET to tell him that while you know this is a topic that's sensitive for him, you're not willing to discuss it anymore and, if it comes up again, you're going to do X?

Finding a way to remove yourself and disengage (preferably as soon as it's brought up or when you sense he's turning the car onto that road) is often the best way to avoid and stop this sort of thing.

[UBPDHelp]

Thanks Ozzie!  Agree that this was a mistake. Funny thing is, I never thought about lying about it. It was a time when people were a bit more “free-spirited” and I didn’t see an issue being honest.

We have discussed so many times. At first he was just curious and never indicated it was a problem. And he slept with several people (and much younger, his “true” love was 16).  But over the years it has just built and built in his head and I’m just so tired of it. I keep telling him I would never think about it except he keeps bringing it up.  He accuses me of keeping the memories to myself. I really don’t remember the details and again have moved on so long ago I really never think about this until he freaks out again.

He has added exaggerated details and I can’t correct the view.

I’ve told him I won’t discuss and he says I will and rages.

He finally said before the holidays he was tired of this and would never bring up again. And I’ve reminded him. The thing is, he just finds a slight variation/detail to question that he considers “new”. 

How do I make that stop?  And when he rages in the car and I can’t get away?  And if I refuse to discuss he gets mad and starts driving fast (not often, but has happened).

And how do I reply to a bulleted list in a text message?  I usually just try to call him to try to calm.

If I thought he would go peacefully to find his true love, I would welcome the peace. I’m just so afraid of the storm.

And interestingly, I have been in conversations (not just these dysregulations) where it felt like bantering in circles and I have just left with “agree to disagree” or something, and I’m told I have a mental issue that I just walk away. I can only beat my head so many times.

I feel like such a failure that I let this happen to me and my kids, that I’ve thought I could just make it better if, and that I’m so afraid of the fallout from leaving. Such a total failure and all I want is some peace.

[Ozzie101]

Hopefully some other members will chime in here as this is an area where I struggle as well.

I've never had to deal with the rage while driving issue so I'm afraid I don't have good advice there. I'm sure that can be scary, though. And I know other members have dealt with that.

As I said, consistency is key. And, especially at first, you can probably expect his rage to get worse. It's called an extinction burst. Basically, when a person finds that behavior that worked in the past no longer works, they'll increase the intensity in hopes of breaking that boundary you've set up. Think of a toddler used to getting his way through tantrums. When Mom and Dad stop giving in, the tantrums temporarily get worse before finally going away when he sees that they really will not work. But that only happens if you hold your boundary.

Have you done any reading on SET (Support Empathy Truth)? It's a communication style that can have more effectiveness in dealing with BPD. I know it's helped me.

PwBPD often pull Nons into these circular arguments. It feeds a need somehow. I know my H does it when he's in a "mood" and it can be exhausting. But it does no good to you, to him, to your relationship, to indulge in these. He won't like your pulling away, but if you do it with consistency, he may start getting the point: this no longer works.

One thing I wonder about. I've found that when my H is raging about something or latches onto a topic, that's often not what's REALLY upsetting him. For instance, my H focuses on my family. Is my family the problem? Partly. But also at play: his fear of abandonment (fear that I'll leave him and choose my family over him), his own lack of closeness and attachment to his own family, his feeling like an outsider, his fear of rejection. The topic at hand is often a smokescreen for something else. Sometimes knowing that something else can make it easier to manage, especially if you can start addressing the underlying problem. Does that make sense? What do you think might be lurking underneath his obsession?

You're not a failure. You're a caring person just doing the best she can in a very difficult situation. But we're here for you. You're not alone.

[UBPDHelp]

Thanks Ozzie,

It is good to have perspective and just plain support. It is just such a confusing disease and if you don’t experience it, impossible to understand.

I have tried, “I hear what you are saying” and “that must be xxxx” which do seem to help BUT two things often happen. First, this type of validating conversation is exhausting and secondly, it starts to shift the truth line and I fear it will just put the issues over the edge. I hope that makes sense.

Maybe I’m doing it wrong, but it’s hard to say “I hear what you are saying about me being a slut/liar/fill in the blank, and that must be hard for you” because he takes that as agreement BUT if I add a statement to say that’s not how I see it, he flies in to a rage. So either avoid the rage and have him think I agree OR mildly share my perspective and deal with a rage.

And the problem with agreement (mind you, I am TOTALLY fine IF HE wants to think those things), is that it keeps moving the line of reality. How do I prevent that w/o rages?

And I remember reading about extinction bursts — thank you for the reminder!  I do often just try to avoid the conflict at all cost.

Thank you again for listening and the insight.

[strugglingBF]

I think this situation works itself into most relationships.  Everyone is naturally inquisitive about their partners past.  Sometimes the past helps explain things that are happening in the present.  But I think there is a natural curiosity about knowing you partners past.  I will say, it is a slippery slope that you have to be careful with.  Both me and my uBPgf have shared quite a few details about our pasts due to the other person's inquisitive questioning.  Both of use have done things we are not proud of.  We are lucky in that neither of us has used the past to put each other down.  My GF has actually been through a few incidents that I would consider impaired sexual assault or rape.  She refuses to believe in the reality of the situation and that she couldn't give consent when she is extremely drunk or passed out.  She almost refuses to deal with the reality that something very terrible happened to her.  She has woke up after passing out drunk to a man doing things with her.  Those situations make me sad, but honestly they explain some of her behaviors with me.  I am careful to never call names or degrade her.  Many of the situations she has been in I cannot relate to as most of the time it is the man that is the aggressor.  Women just don't typically look to take advantage of impaired men.  She went through a rough phase of life where she was looking for the wrong kind of attention, she was drinking too much and putting herself in situations more susceptible to unfortunate situations.  I believe she could benefit from some therapy to address some of these incidents because I don't think she has internally dealt with them.  It is like she wants to tell me about these things as many times it has come up without any prodding from me.  But then when I try to talk/empathize with her, it becomes too much and we end up fighting...or she will start turning on my past and shifting focus.  Anyway, I don't think asking about the topic or discussing it is a problem.  How far it goes, using it to degrade the other person, how obsessed someone gets about it...that is a different story.     

[Ozzie101]

Sometimes you have to just draw a line. As a fellow conflict-avoidant person, I understand your hesitation. I really do. It's scary to have to face rage like that. And exhausting and frustrating to listen to mistruths like that.

How do you keep the line of reality where it is? Boundaries.

You can decide not to listen anymore.

You can say something like "Are you interested in listening to what I have to say?" If he says no, or continues to talk over you, respond with "I will continue this conversation when you're ready to have a real discussion." Then leave.

Or "I deserve to be treated with respect. I will not continue with this conversation if you talk to me that way."

Now, those are very hard-line things to say. And you probably aren't comfortable with that. You may have to play with wording or work your way up to it. But the point is to stop allowing the conversations to continue.

One thing I've learned is that my conciliatory nature, my bending over backwards to please my H, etc., probably has led to him thinking I'm weak. That weakness scares him. (And, at least subconsciously, makes him think, "Hmm, if I can turn her around, maybe other people could too -- like her family.") He tries to take over even more. When I'm calm, firm and strong, I find that his behavior is actually better.

Is that something you think you can work towards?

[UBPDHelp]

Thank you for all the reminders. I just find it so hard to communicate with all the rules.  I mean traditionally, being kind, thoughtful, interested, attentive, etc., I try to accomplish and if I do stick my foot in my mouth, will apologize and take responsibility.

But how do you respond to not picking up the dry cleaning today is because I’m “married” to someone else and a disgusting human being. I don’t know, your son had a thing at school and it ran over so I couldn’t make it today. That means H is not a priority.

Then if I talk/text a normal conversation like I’m running to store, do you need anything? I get hit with what a disgusting piece of trash I am. 

He constantly tells me food, etc., are what mothers do and yet, if I don’t have the dinner he likes, then I hear about it.  Perpetual catch 22.  Just a couple examples.

And, interestingly the other day he said he thought a lot of his unhappiness comes because he hates his job and then he takes things out on me.  I have tried to help him find another job and continue to offer assistance but even that pisses him off if he’s mad at me.

It truly is hard to be in a lose-lose situation.

And, after basically ignoring me all last week, which in all honesty was nice, he comes in Friday and was like, I’m over it (he wanted sex).  But he didn’t get as much as he wanted but because there were things going on, he was mostly okay.  So yesterday was an opportunity to have some alone time, but he was watching a movie and then lecturing me that I should be more open to genres I don’t care for.  I said I do some, but it’s not really my thing.  He leaves and when he comes back in asks how much do I think we can get for the house if we get divorced.

I just replied with a dollar amount and then he said, how much do we owe and I said approx an amount.

He didn’t say anything else.  But, throwing up divorce because I don’t like a certain genre of movie kind of killed any desire for intimacy. But now he’s mad about it.  Where’s the responsibility for his actions?

Can you all offer suggestions to better handle/deal with these types of scenarios?

And with the rage texts that he’s sending me now about how vile and disgusting I am, do I reply/acknowledge/ignore?  I just am tired and confused but just plain tired of dealing with this.

I don’t think I’m perfect, I know i can be annoying sometimes, etc., but I am not the worst human alive.

And I have such guilt about the kids and feel like he’ll either abandon them or use them in a power struggle.

I am open to all comments and advice. Bless you all!

[Ozzie101]

My H has thrown divorce out there in his worst dysregulations. And often over something seemingly minor.

Once, my voting against a certain item on the ballot (one we'd talked about before and that he didn't seem to feel strongly about) turned into what a horrible, thoughtless person I am and that I don't care anything about him or his feelings.

So, I get it.

Like you, I'm not perfect. I make mistakes. I have some annoying habits (don't we all?). But I'm not deserving of verbal/emotional abuse. Neither are you.

Basically, it sounds like he has a lot of insecurities and unhappiness and, in true BPD fashion, he is finding someone to "blame" and pin those negative feelings on: You. A very painful and difficult situation to be in.

Any communication is going to be problematic if he's being that difficult. But being able to stay calm and unemotional is good. Not playing into his attempts at manipulation? Good. Refusing to engage and indulge in his paranoia? Good. It may not feel like it at first and it may take time, but if you don't engage, you're not feeding "the beast" and he may eventually move on.

We've got a couple of workshops here that might have some good information for you. Have you seen these?
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=87204.0
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=309757.0

Take a look when you have some time and let me know what you think. And I hope some other members will jump in with advice!

Just keep hanging in there and we'll do our best to help!

[UBPDHelp]

Thanks Ozzie.  It is so hard and I’m exhausted.

He’s created this illusion that I bent over backwards to have sex with my BF 30 years ago, that it was my main objective in life (ugh, not so, not even close) and so now when I have an appointment or the kids need something so I’m not available to him, it becomes all that I would do for my old bf, but won’t do for him.

Simply not true.  And, no one has ever spoken to me this way. Ever. I honestly don’t know why it took me so long to feel like it is just too much. I mean he’s been more unbearable recently and yes, he is feeling stressed about career stuff so definitely driving emotions he doesn’t know what to do with.

At me. I try to help but it’s never right, if I let him be, then I’m not helping. No win or even just a draw.  Just big loser.

So, I’ve kept my distance the past couple of days and then went to speak with him. Immediately he launched into the recurring conversation (vile, slut, despicable, etc) and I said I wasn’t going to be a part of the conversation. When he wanted to discuss the actual issue, I would but not this. I walked out of the room.

Now what?  Don’t speak until he decides to?  Just go about my business, I assume.

And when blind sided by rage texts, is it better to ignore with no response or ignore as if the conversation continued without the rage text?  I mean is it total ignoring or just not acknowledging the rage?

I will definitely look into the links you sent.

I am happy to work on a relationship but this feels nearly impossible.

Thanks for your help.

[UBPDHelp]

  okay, so big question here...

Reading through some other posts and the links, I read about in laws being co-dependent and feeding off each other.

My H has always “hated” his mother.  FIL left years ago and H has felt responsibility for MIL (his mom) and younger sibling.  They are included in everything from vacations to weekends to holidays. But he despises his mother and finds his siblings tiresome and complains that he has to “take care of” everyone because he has this flaw where he feels responsible that everyone is okay (resents me this way b/c he has to take care of me, not really, just married shared responsibilities, but through his eyes).

He doesn’t speak to his father.  It was within a few years that his behaviors got worse and worse. A couple of times my MIL was seeing someone and H was happy, but when the MIL bfs break it off (she’s got other, albeit probably similar issues), H goes into a spiral about how he hates her and is still responsible for her.

Could this be an underlying fear of abandonment that rages is me being a slut?

I just long for a rational, peaceful, loving and honest conversation. I’m too tired for this.

But, would love thoughts on this (I can’t believe this never occurred to me in such a global way!).

[Ozzie101]

Fear of abandonment, latent insecurities, fear of rejection... It's probably a cocktail of issues. The fixation on your BF all those years ago could well be tied to the problems with his parents. It's probably also some degree of insecurity -- fear that you'll leave. So, if you're a "slut" who's been cheating on him, well, then, it's not his fault and has nothing to do with him, right?

None of this is necessarily conscious. It's just emotions run wild and unchecked.

Forgive me if I've already asked or if you've said (it's early!), but are you in any kind of therapy for yourself? It really can be hugely helpful in dealing with our own issues and building up our own resolve and strength for dealing with our loved one's dysregulations. Just throwing that out there.

Walking away when he launches into those conversations is, I think, a good move. Just be consistent. Do this every time it happens. Eventually, he should start to get the point. That behavior is not getting him what he wants (or getting him anything, really).

As for the texts, I hope someone else can pitch in as it's not something I've had to deal with. Maybe something similar? "I will not tolerate abusive texts. When you want to be civil, we can talk." Then radio silent. Delete without reading.

[UBPDHelp]

Hi Ozzie,

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply and offer insight. Your understanding rings so true and helps to make sense of all of this.

I am not in therapy. H does not believe in therapy.  He thinks therapists make things worse.  I suspect he knows they would see through him.

I know I could go on my own but I am quite certain if I did it would only serve to make him feel threatened and I’m not certain I want to raise those stakes at the moment.

How do other’s BPDs feel when they go to therapy?  Would be interested in the reactions.

He was really upset with me last week and when he would come hone, would immediately launch into a tirade.  Twice I told him we’d already discussed and I wasn’t going to continue doing so any longer and that when he was ready to calmly discuss the real issue, I would do so.  I turned around and left and didn’t speak to him the rest of the night.  By the third night, he launched in (immediately) and I told him that I heard what he was saying and that I was sorry if that’s how it made him feel and that it was not my intention.  He dropped it like a hot potato and then we had a nice few days.

Fast forward and my oldest son had an issue with his girlfriend and asked me to speak to his dad. When I was, I relayed something my son said and H went crazy (a very benign statement to anyone, but set him off) and hung up the phone on me.  I didn’t call him back or try to contact in any way.  No idea what he’ll be like when he gets home, but I’m not doing this.

He cares nothing about my son’s situation, but the statement reminded him of his issue with me and now he’s angry.  It’s like saying the sky is blue — can you avoid it? How? And why should I have to?

Anyway, thank you for the help.

I like your suggestion about handling the text messages the same way. 

I don’t like to make things worse, but I do struggle with the truth line being pushed so far.  Guess that’s my job to find the balance and the issues that are worthy. 

Thanks again!

[Ozzie101]

How do other’s BPDs feel when they go to therapy?  Would be interested in the reactions.

I can't speak for others but here's my experience. My H had a similar belief to your H's. He thought therapists were scam artists who got you "hooked" so they could make more money. He was VERY negative when I mentioned the possibility of my going. In his case, it was that he hates thinking people are talking about him without him present.

So, when things got really bad, I started going in secret. It was easy for me because I have tons of built-up sick time and an understanding boss. My grandmother paid for whatever insurance didn't cover.

When H had his breakthrough and I revealed that I'd been seeing someone, he was shocked that I'd been going but understood why I'd kept it secret. He's finally found a therapist he really connects with and, while not a full believer, is far more accepting.

Being able to disengage and leave fruitless, abusive or otherwise unpleasant conversations is a very good skill -- one I've never been able to master. So good for you. As you're discovering, validating the feelings can make a big difference.

I do struggle with the truth line being pushed so far.

It is so hard, isn't it? I really have to fight the urge to JADE. Fortunately, in my case, when H comes back to baseline, he's quick to accept the truth in situations and apologize for his unfair accusations. In the moment, I remind myself that I know what the truth is. That he's dysregulating and not seeing things clearly. That he may be purposefully trying to trigger me (something he's admitted to). Helps keep me calm.