How to come alongside and avoid the Karpman triangle

[PeaceMom]

In another thread Enabler, you were pointing out how setting a budget, etc for a young adult might put us as the bearer of bad news, dream squashing, perpetrator role in the K. Triangle.
The way you described this 100% characterizes me in my family. I’m the realist, logical mom vs emotional or Wiseminded mom.

For example, my DS26 lives here with us and has had some serious MH struggles and struggles with alcohol abuse. He has an excellent college degree and from the outside looking in should be perfectly able to handle adulthood with its challenges.

However, in reality, he has mental deficiencies (undiagnosed) which over and over again prohibit full adult-type independence. We have gently pushed him out of nest many times but then he becomes ill, has horrible probs at work, doesn’t tend to bills, drives after drinking, has car problems, etc. He is pleasant to be around (not BPD) but has terrible anxiety. 

He texted me this morning “mom I think I can’t go on in this job. I spilled dye all over myself and can’t get it off and I have to go on sales calls now. I can’t do this, I think I need to quit work right now. Not sure what to do.” I responded “Bud that sounds so frustrating. You are gonna need to make the best decisions for your life remembering you are an adult with adult responsibilities. They say it’s best to get a job when you have a job. When I’m freaking out I take deep breaths or walk around in fresh air. I’ll be thinking about you today”

Now I’m bearer of bad news and he feels hopeless, guilt and shame.

My next son who is a full time college student but living here just got his first student loan and has a chunk of money. He has BP1 and can blow thru money like it’s water. He wants to move out w/this $. I feel like I should help him manage it or it will disappear and he won’t be able to pay rent over 6 months.  Therefore, in his mind he’s the victim, I’m the controlling negative dream squasher.

I live in the triangle -always feeling victimized personally by the fact that I have so many neuro atypical adult children yet thought to be the bad news perpetrator by my kids.

Any thoughts?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Enabler]

In both situations there are known knowns, one has BPD and one has BP1. They both know when calm what some of the outcomes might be should they no take actions.

Staying neutral or central to the triangle is important. I think it’s important to state clearly that you want them to succeed with their plans. Talk about the dream and suggest how good the dream sounds. Then ask what challenges they think they will face, and make it clear that all people endure challenges but planning for those challenges means they sting less... leg him suggest his own challenges, and hope he says “I’ll roar through that pile of green in a weekend...” then ask him what he could do to avoid that. The point is allowing them both to come up with their own solutions whilst not jumping in with your own solutions.

Enabler

[PeaceMom]

This sounds doable. If someone has crazy dreams and long shot goals and a plausible plan, I’m their biggest cheerleader. My kids have very lofty goals but don’t seem to have the cognition to get there and they want me, the logical one, to work out the HOW TOS.
Thanks for reminding me that even with MH challenges, they should be able to detect some potential
flaws in their plan.
I’m resisting co-signing on apartment even it it means he pays more monthly bc I find that when my actual dollars are involved, I’m more resentful and can get very angry (both at myself for giving in and my adult kids for being wasteful).

[Enabler]

Maintaining a safe boundary between you and them is good for everyone. Yes it might be more expensive NOW because he has to prove himself to other people... but he's investing in his own future and that premium will come down. A bit like the difference between being a named driver on an insurance policy vs having your own car insurance. Initially it's more expensive but over time that premium comes down.

As you have noted, personal investment in situations that aren't directly your problem changes the way that we respond to them. It changes the advice you might give as your own 'self' is on the hook. Your ideal is to sit yourself down in a zen like manner saying "this is nothing to do with me, I am but an adviser" and all 'stuff' to go on around you. You can be a source of wisdom rather than a source of rescue. Wise people typically don't respond with the answer, they typically respond with some searching questions that help you attain the answer after thought and consideration. They appreciate that the journey to the answer is often as if not more important than the answer itself, and that journey promotes knowledge and understanding for repeatable situations, rather than a once and done solution.

Dreaming big is great, as long as they work out the realistic route to getting their first before setting off.

Enabler

[PeaceMom]

Enabler,
Today I sit as the Buddha bouncing thought provoking questions back into their court. Trying my best to take zero ownership and trying my best not to let my fears for their future come thru.
This is always hard for me as the nurturing, logical, gifted problem solver mom.

My DD19 ubpd is full of her own ideas and ways to solve her problems (even though her ways have caused her much grief, legal problems, etc.) so I do better on the sidelines. Plus her issues got way too big and scary for me to give suggestions.

I appreciate you helping me think this through.

[livednlearned]

PeaceMom, have you seen this?



You can read more about the empowerment dynamic here.

It sounds to me like you are doing some of this already. I know families here have had to create on-ramps for their launching BPD kids that are coaching-centered. For example, your son who has money and wants to move out. Maybe he takes a safe trial run at home, paying "rent" into an account and living his life as though he's on his own. The rent is his to keep but he gets a sense of how much things cost. Then maybe he uses that saved money as an emergency fund when he moves out.

I'm doing a version of this with S18. It feels like a more intense version of parenting than what my friends do with their neurotypical kids, but it's more of a collaborative approach: Here's the goal you/we want, let's create something that seems like a reasonable way to work toward this big event in a safe way where there are some guardrails, to set you up for success. The vision or action plan, so to speak.

[PeaceMom]

This is a very positive reversal in the Drama triangle.
I’ve already been tested today. DS26 went to work and quit. No 2 week notice, no trying to get a job while having a job. Then he texted me and Ubered home.

I said “ok so you quit. We will have different rules about you living at home bc last time, you had no job for 6 mos. And watched TV all day while “applying” to jobs online. We did not charge you rent, but gave you no money. You had minimal duties. If you are unable to work full time to support yourself, you must figure out why and then get some type of support via counseling, coaching, medical care, group support, etc.”

He immediately got red faced and seemed completely shamed by my words.

I refuse to micromanage a 26 yr old man by checking his room to see if it’s tidy, Requiring a list of jobs he’s applied for, seeing that he’s up and out of bed. This is where the practical part of my boundaries and the “coaching” part of the triangle make me feel resentful.

 I will not demand he see a career coach or a T, either. He also has a nice saving from living here rent free. In the past he’s blown it. He’s BPII and problems budgeting is a hallmark. I’m not going to manage his $ like he’s a child.

Enabler, do you have thoughts here?

[Enabler]

Morning PeaceMom,

Sorry to hear your S didn't manage to ride it out and stick with the job, I can imagine how frustrating this is.

I said “ok so you quit. We will have different rules about you living at home bc last time, you had no job for 6 mos. And watched TV all day while “applying” to jobs online. We did not charge you rent, but gave you no money. You had minimal duties. If you are unable to work full time to support yourself, you must figure out why and then get some type of support via counseling, coaching, medical care, group support, etc.”

I sense this sounded like you were the deliverer of bad news to him... or shame... albeit the truth about the situation. It sounds pretty clear and doesn't necessarily allow him the opportunity to answer his own questions (that he's not asking himself) and leaves you in the position of perpetrator where YOU are doing things to him for which he is now the victim. I understand that this is very truthful and honest with him but I suspect he may not feel that way. I wonder whether or not you could have asked some neutral questions such as:

"Okay, so you quit. I'm sure you had your reasons.
Any thoughts on what you might do now?
How does this work towards your aspirations to move out and support yourself?
Is there any way I can help you help yourself get back towards that objective?"

Enabler 

[Blind1]

Hi PeaceMom, I followed you over here to hear about your situation and Enabler's thoughts. I can see why you said what you did when your son quit his job. I would have reacted the same way. I, like you, are the realist, logical mom. That is why this is so difficult to change my thinking about the situation with my D18. My husband is much better at this, but unfortunately he isn't her dad and can't even talk to her now (she wants nothing to do with him). He is constantly reminding me to turn it around and just ask questions. I definitely need more practice at it.

I need to figure out now how to even talk to her. She can't even stand to say one word to me. I am trying to lay low but we had a rough weekend which just pushed her further away. Maybe I just need to let her go without saying anything and give both of us a break.

[PeaceMom]

Blind1

Have you read “Loving Someone w/BPD”? Reading it filled me with more compassion than resentment for DD19 uBpd.

My confusion w/DD has always been that I honestly believed she was capable of more than she was. The book calls this “apparent competence”. This term has really resonated with me.  I used shame and guilt to try to force her to stay in the lines imposed by school, church, me, society...

This caused her to actually feel and become even more toxic and out of control. We moved her to the Alternative HS her Jr. year and she actually finished all Jr and Sr classes in one semester and graduated early. This didn’t do anything great for her except getting OUT of the school environment early and getting the diploma.

She was fired from about 8 jobs from age 15-18. Each time I would try to be sympathetic but ultimately it would turn into me shaming her bc of whatever she did that caused the firing.  Once she turned 18, I took myself out of her equation. I felt I was finally released of my legal parental obligation.

 She has gotten herself in many legal and relational messes this last year, but I’m so much better at not shaming her as each one comes her way. She is still very toxic and can go from asking me to bring her something to cussing me in about 10 seconds but I’m much calmer about gently closing her door and walking away.

My meditation has helped me truly have good, loving, and kind thoughts going her way and I believe she’s picking up on this. The biggest change is I stopped asking so many questions.
“Do you have HW? Could you clean your room? what time do you work? Did you deposit your paycheck? Could you clean hampster cage?”  My questions were usually logistical with zero heart to heart connection. Now, if I’m going to offer my generous listening skills, I sit and listen and try to reflect back her underlying feelings. I can only do this for about 10 minutes-that’s my boundary. Oh, and she’s about to have her 1 yr anniversary at a clothing store PT job.

What does your DD desperately want/need  from you?

[Blind1]

PeaceMom,

I have not read that book yet. I'm still trying to finish "Stop Walking on Eggshells". I will definitely read that next.

I too think she is capable of more than what she's doing. She has a natural talent for art, is beautiful and loves to do hair, nails and makeup. She wanted to go into cosmology. I was totally for it and told her that. She thought I would be disappointed that she wasn't going to college. I told no, I don't think college is right for you, and that's OK, school isn't for everyone.

I'm not sure what happened in Dec, but for the last two months, all she has done is lay in bed. I know out of frustration I have shamed her for it, hoping it would get her moving. I know now that is the wrong idea. She is going to need to do something though. She can't stay at my house without finishing school and/or getting a job.

Right now she doesn't want to talk to me at all. I can barely get a one word answer so I just have to lay low for a while and hope the barrier will come down slightly. Since she will be 18 soon, I wasn't going to question her as much either, hoping that might help. I too feel a sense of release knowing I'm no longer "responsible" for her, but I feel way more fear because I know she isn't going to make good decisions. I am really struggling with letting go and letting her deal with her own decisions.

I'm glad to hear things a little better for you. I'm hoping in time and with adjusting how I am with her, it will get better for us too. Congratulations on the 1 yr anniversary of a job.   

I think her biggest thing is she wants to be heard. She says often she feels no one is listening. I have to admit, I listen, but I'm not good at affirming and then I try to tell her what she should do. I need to just listen (when she is ready to talk to me) and reflect back to her what I think she is saying/feeling. I need to work on how to respond past that though. Most of time she is upset because she didn't get her way so I know if I listen and affirm, the next thing is going to be, "then you should let me, or give me, or whatever". If the answer is no, then she's right back where she was.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Enabler]

Have you looked into empathetic listening skills. People especially pwBPD can often feel unheard. There is a difference between listening to someone and 'hearing' someone. Skills such as reflecting back in summary form, not interupting, not offering advice, allowing uncomfortable silence resisting the compunction to fil the void with noise, instead leaving the uncomfortable silence so the other person will fill it. It's challenging and requires a change in direction, however I have found that some of my most rewarding and insightful conversations I have had with my W and young kids for that matter is when I have totally resisted the urge to interject and just let THEM fill the voids.

Keeping an open non-judgemental mind as well, for example... you told your D that college might not be for her, weirdly maybe she didn't want you to tell her that, maybe she just wanted to know that you'd support her in whatever she chose to do. She may have taken that comment as you saying she wasn't good enough to go to college. You thought you were being kind by removing the pressure of expectation that she would go to college... she may not have taken it that way. Again, this comes back to the Karpman Triangle, you don't get to decide what is good or bad, you just get to be coach... you get to stay neutral.

Enabler 

[Blind1]

I can see now how my response could have been turned around to mean something I didn't intend. That was months ago before we had any sort of diagnosis. Although I'm sure I would have still said it not thinking about it. This is going to be a long process for me, trying to stay neutral and practicing empathetic listening. I need to slow down and take a deep breath when talking with her.

[Enabler]

Keeping yourself centred when having these kinds of conversations is of paramount importance. It's worthwhile considering how you can sense when you're 'triggered'. My first sense of being triggered is in my legs... in essence that's because I get a flush of adrenaline preparing me for some kind of fight or flight. How do you feel it? Are you able to 'take yourself back there' and remember all the sensations you have? This might sound a bit weird, but in essence what you're trying to do is give yourself some red flags or signs that say "I need to do something to get myself back to base such that I don't say or do anything that isn't 'in control'." That's the first step to being able to have excellent control in really challenging situations. That action could be to sit down, put yourself in a relaxed physical position; it could be to stroke your bald head  to self soothe (works for me); it could be to take a time out until you know you can come back to be chilled. Whatever works. You're not necessarily in danger, but your body would like to make you think you are. Our reactions and ability to think passively when we're in fight or flight are markedly different from those from a more centred position.

This isn't an overnight thing, it takes months if not years. I hate this term, but be kind to yourself if you mess up, you're doing your best to meet the needs of someone else. That said, this is a great life skill and will serve you well to learn for all walks of life.

Enabler

[PeaceMom]

Enabler,
This goes right along with Somatic Experiencing. I’ve become so much more aware of how interactions w/DD affect my body sensations. Mindfulness and simply slowing down into almost a slo-mo are most helpful. My H is quickly overstimulated and goes into “fight” defensive mode when he feels attacked by her or when her behavior feel threatening. It’s very difficult for me because I can’t change either my unwell DD or my reactive H. He will lash out verbally with no interest in trying to Validate her bc he’s truly in protective made. This is a loop that keeps playing over and over. Sad

[Blind1]

Thanks for the tips Enabler! Yes, this is going to be a process. Right now things are OK, she still isn't speaking to me. I am going to have to do something though at some point. She needs to at least do something. She is not going to school, not working, not doing chores or helping out at home, not seeing her therapist and not taking her meds. She can't continue to stay at my house and do nothing but sleep and hand out with friends. I'm trying to be patient, Dec and Jan were tough months, but this can't keep going on.

Since things are quiet, I'm really trying to have scenarios in my head and how I would react if they were to come to fruition. I know I'll continue to blow it, but if I can keep trying to "center myself", stick to what I'm comfortable with and try to be prepared I think that will help. I know I really  have to work on slowing down in the mist of the interaction because I'm so quick to say anything "right, wrong or indifferent". I need to really listen to her and take time in my responses I think that will go a long way with her. I agree, this skill will serve me well in all walks of life. I have already noticed I'm changing the way I interact with my boys too. I just wish I would have know better all these years with her. Maybe she wouldn't be in such a bad way right now. I can't even imagine how bad my words and interactions have hurt her over the years and it makes me sick to my stomach.

[Enabler]

I am quick to react. I actually typically spend the first 10-20 seconds of any conversation hearing only "wah wah wah wah" whilst I have a little internal chat with myself saying "Do not react, all is fine, just because W is flipping out, doesn't mean you have to as well... CHILL OUT". See, the subconscious mind works super super super quick, the rational mind works very slowly but makes 'better' decisions... I rationalise it like RAM memory in a computer vs Hard Drive memory. The key is to slow to a snails pace whilst the RAM is working to give yourself time for your Hard Drive to catch up.

PeaceMom, what prevents your H from learning about the way he thinks? Does he read books... would he read a book?

Enabler 

[PeaceMom]

E,
This has been so stressful on him all these years. He’s the provider here and he always believed that once our 4 kids reached adulthood, they’d be independent of us. Just like he was at 17. This slow to launch and MH issues w/all 4 adult children has about put him over the edge. Meanwhile he’s retirement age and working like a dog to provide. He has no extra energy to read books on BPD. He believes deep down that DD has genetic issues -her birth mom was an illiterate, street child and possibly grandmother as well. He also understands the bio psycho social parts and that we were not the very best family to support her emotional issues, BUT he’s tired and wants freedom at this point.
Honestly, I feel very bad for him. Thank you for asking!

[PeaceMom]

Oh E another issue is that H and DD were inseparable from age 4-14. They went fishing weekly, ate out, just enjoyed hanging out but at age 15 when her promiscuity began, he just couldn’t stomach it so he’s held a grudge ever since. Her behavior and lack of self respect are too much for him to get over to validate her underlying issues.

[Enabler]

It's super super hard not to judge, especially when he can't truly empathise with her experience. I was fortunate to have great parents, I once thought that I got what it would be like to come from a family with not so great parents... what I actually didn't understand was that the thought processes were almost completely different. I couldn't genuinely empathise because I was trying to empathise with my 'nice family' head. The behaviours and thought processes were utterly confusing. It was only when I spent time rationalising childhood trauma and BPD understand the filters someone who'd experienced that might see the world... and they'd see the world in a remarkably different way to me.

Can I assume you adopted DD?

Enabler

[PeaceMom]

Yes he can’t be made to understand that which he can’t understand. She is adopted. I’m more compassionate and empathetic by nature. H despises the way she verbally snaps at me. He sees my kindness as weakness and he feels frustrated that I’m not quicker to protect myself from her verbal tirades. I do leave her presence as soon as she goes on a tirade, but I do it slowly and quietly. I used to holler back and slam her door on the way out. Maybe H thought, good, W is showing her who is boss. That only poured gas on her always smoldering Fire, so I stopped. Frankly, I’m exhausted and not feeling very hopeful about the future.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Enabler]

What has a better effect, walking away, walking away stating that you will speak when she is calm, shouting louder than her until she stops?

My guess is that you H believes that he knows how to communicate with people. Maybe he's a sociable guy and doesn't have a problem talking to anyone he meets... yet here's this young person who no matter which one of his conversation tools he uses... she gets angry. I think we'd all find that frustrating, I know that I do.

What does H think of BPD? I'd imagine he would think it's like believing in unicorns.

[PeaceMom]

He’s very social and is completely baffled by her. He just can’t understand this on any deep level. I keep telling him, it’s truly a disorder, like a mental illness. He knows something is deeply wrong, but H operates at a very basic level, he’s not a very deep thinker like me. So every time she strikes out, he’s shocked all over again. It’s happened 1,000 times and he’s still surprised, horrified, dismayed and his Fight flight freeze takes over again. Typically it’s fight (verbally) but sometimes it’s flight and he’s like “what the heck is happening, I’m out of here”.
It’s a odd thing to observe. Day in, day out. My T keeps telling me that I’m overwhelmed because my boundaries aren’t firm...
I’ve come to learn the firmest boundaries wont change their behavior until they get coping skills onboard.

[PeaceMom]

Walking away quietly makes me feel like I am a warrior bc I didn’t react. But it rarely changes our next interaction. Anything can set her off-anything. I’ve been reading this site for months waiting for someone to share how they live 24/7 with a BPD young adult and it gets better. I’m still hopeful and I’ll keep reading here-surely someone out there has navigated this successfully!

[Enabler]

I can where your H is and he is likely to continue to find things frustrating until he chooses to accept there's a different way (other than his) way of seeing the world. This is interesting and I sometimes wonder about friends who have adopted kids, as part of the training to be adoptive parents, are you given any kind of headsup or primer about childhood trauma and the impacts it 'might' have on kids as they move through their development. The idea that a child might grow up, even in the happiest of new families, without some kind of trauma is optimistic at best. I can only imagine the nagging questions that might be going through a teenagers head as they start to consider concepts such as family, parenting, society, why, who, how... and why didn't my parents love me enough to stick around or look after me...

How would you say you scored on a 1-10 scale (10 being stuck to your guns 100% of the time), on sticking to firm boundaries? Can you see the problem with intermittently reinforcing those boundaries/rules?

Enabler

[PeaceMom]

Enabler,
I don’t believe H will ever accept DD while she’s living this promiscuous life. As for our boundaries, we certainly tried to take away privileges and we sold her car when she wasn’t where she said she was. We cancelled phone, etc. We had harsh, swift related consequences for set violations, but she kept on with the behavior. The only boundaries we have now are with our time and our generous listening as she basically pays for her life.

We have the exact same issues with ineffective boundaries and her steamrolling thru these and worldly consequences that almost everyone else who lives w/a young BPD adult (or teenager) share on a daily basis. Ideally, we need hard and fast examples on what it looks like to firmly hold these. I think most of us are way beyond walking away quietly when they are raging. We are to simply stare, “we will be able to discuss this when there is no yelling. Let’s try again in 1 hour”. However, the rage typically starts again the next day over something else. Life is an unrelenting crisis for DD and we are her only safe people to share with. I do tell her, I can listen for 10 minutes only.

The more I think about it, I might need to get a new T, one who doesn’t constantly say my boundaries are weak and that I need to bring DD to a joint T session. That would be forcing DD into T which I’ve done many other times they the years.

Unconditional love in this situation is extremely difficult. I’m praying she moves out as being around this everyday is debilitating. We told her if she stays out all night to text and let us know. We use DEARMAN and SET , however we have no consequence bc we are not ready to go thru the lengthy legal  eviction process yet. she randomly is out all night (maybe 4 -5 nights a week) and never texts.

Any thoughts on better boundaries?

[PeaceMom]

And we were never told about the likelihood of Reactive Attachment Disorder morphing into BPD during our adoption process. I gave up my professional career to be home and raise her and bond with her. Adoption is a trauma and she was in T starting in 5th grade.

[Enabler]

In some respects it's great that she has been in T since grade 5, but then at the same time she may not have seen the benefits of it so has grown up resenting it.

It's tough as parents to see our children make choices that don't align to what we expected for them... they don't stick to OUR Blueprint. However, ALL parents need to accept that their children are their own beasts, able to make their own choices. Being promiscuous isn't necessarily a secular society 'bad' now. I know plenty of people of all ages who use apps like Tinder for hook-ups and casual sex. It likely doesn't sit well for you as a parent and I'm sure when you played with her as a toddler you didn't dream for her to be one day being promiscuous... but... maybe she see's this as her choice and her body to do as she pleases with. From your H's perspective maybe this is something he needs to deal with... he needs to deal with the idea that she doesn't want his blueprint for her, she's making her own way in her own ways... But that this doesn't make her a bad person.

Above you have listed quite a lot of punishments. There's a difference between boundaries and punishments. Yes, some boundaries are defended with punishments, but boundaries are often better defended with rewards... or getting rewards if the boundary is not tested. This about it... "I will pay for your phone if you come home by 10pm every day for a month, I will also make it 10:15 the next month"... or "I will not pay for your phone because you came home at midnight". One is punishment and involves a conversation and a fight... the other one is just FACT... You do this... I do that... END OF.

Can you think about way that things you punish her for can be flipped round to 'encourage' behaviour you want.

I would be careful not to project your opinion about what is and isn't right or wrong. She may have a different definition about what is right and wrong. 

[livednlearned]

I might need to get a new T, one who doesn’t constantly say my boundaries are weak

That would be hard to have a T repeat that over and over. 

From what you have shared, it sounds like you do set boundaries. You are successful with them when you have control over them.

The sobering reality is that we don't have that much control over other people, if any. Altho one can dream 

Sometimes the boundaries you set seem more like ultimatums, PeaceMom. Which maybe feels aggravating because ultimatums devolve into power struggles? (which she wins more often than not).

[Blind1]

I just want to say, I don't think rewards always work either. I have tried that several times in the past with no success. Just recently her T (the one she has been with since the diagnosis) wanted to try it. The three of us sat together and put a detailed plan together. I wanted her to do her chores and she wanted money (because she doesn't have a job). The list was very specific of what she had to do daily/weekly (which was no different than what it has been for years) and if she did it, I would give her money at the end of the week. There were specific deductions from the amount if things weren't done. That was over a month ago and she has done nothing. Good news is, I don't have to give her money, but for as much as she likes to spend and has no gas money she didn't seem to care. When I talked to her T about it, she said something to the effect of "yeah, I don't think that approach is going to work for her". I agree that ultimatums and punishments are just power struggles, but I'm not sure what else there is. I have even tried it with grades when she was in school. As long as you have a C or better you can use the car. That didn't seem to matter.