I feel crazy Part 2

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Mod Note:  Part 1 of this thread is located here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=342301.0;all

Cat - you're right, I shouldn't feel bad! My T always says by putting me into that category, he's trying to, in a convoluted way, prove his worth to me. Like, I'm an inconsiderate, bad partner, but he's willing to overlook that and be with me even so. It makes a lot of sense and allows him to channel his anger at himself at me.

FF - His texts were:
"Go do your shopping."

I said: "You don't want to come?"
He replied: "No."
I said: "Okay...would you like me to pick up anything specific?"

Then, when I went upstairs to get dressed, he laid into me, starting with, "I just don't understand why you'd do something like that."
Me (oblivious): "Like what?"
Him: "Just make pancakes for yourself and not for me."
Me: "Well, I asked you if you wanted some and you said no."
Him: "Yeah, it was an afterthought. You'd already made them for yourself."
Me: "Okay...well I made them from a mix - it takes a few minutes and I didn't think you'd be awake..." (this is JADE-ing, I know)
Him: "I WAS awake!"
We went back and forth for a bit, and I said, "Look, I didn't intend to hurt your feelings. I didn't realize that was something that was important to you."
Of course, he said, "Why wouldn't it be?"
So, then I got dressed and I went to go pick up dog food about a mile or so away. By the time I got out of the dog food shop, he had called me 7 times on my phone, which I retrieved in my purse. I called him back and he answered immediately.
"Why did you leave me?"
Me: "You said you didn't want to come."
Him (exasperated) : "You KNOW I'm in a bad place right now."
Me: "Okay...I'm at the dog food store. What would you like me to do?"
Him: "Why don't you come home and I'll get dressed and get the dog food out of the back of the car?"
So, that's what I did. Of course, he was nasty on and off at me for most of the day. He has been super complainy recently, but that absolutely coincides with how he feels about himself. He told me to "drink bleach" because I told him I didn't want to be out shopping with him if he was going to be raging out in public, which he did at an elevator door almost closing on him. So, that was pleasant. By the end of the day out, he was back in lovey dovey happy mode, but as we know, that's fleeting.

[WitzEndWife]

Mod Note:  Part 1 of this thread is located here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=342301.0;all

Cat - you're right, I shouldn't feel bad! My T always says by putting me into that category, he's trying to, in a convoluted way, prove his worth to me. Like, I'm an inconsiderate, bad partner, but he's willing to overlook that and be with me even so. It makes a lot of sense and allows him to channel his anger at himself at me.

FF - His texts were:
"Go do your shopping."

I said: "You don't want to come?"
He replied: "No."
I said: "Okay...would you like me to pick up anything specific?"

Then, when I went upstairs to get dressed, he laid into me, starting with, "I just don't understand why you'd do something like that."
Me (oblivious): "Like what?"
Him: "Just make pancakes for yourself and not for me."
Me: "Well, I asked you if you wanted some and you said no."
Him: "Yeah, it was an afterthought. You'd already made them for yourself."
Me: "Okay...well I made them from a mix - it takes a few minutes and I didn't think you'd be awake..." (this is JADE-ing, I know)
Him: "I WAS awake!"
We went back and forth for a bit, and I said, "Look, I didn't intend to hurt your feelings. I didn't realize that was something that was important to you."
Of course, he said, "Why wouldn't it be?"
So, then I got dressed and I went to go pick up dog food about a mile or so away. By the time I got out of the dog food shop, he had called me 7 times on my phone, which I retrieved in my purse. I called him back and he answered immediately.
"Why did you leave me?"
Me: "You said you didn't want to come."
Him (exasperated) : "You KNOW I'm in a bad place right now."
Me: "Okay...I'm at the dog food store. What would you like me to do?"
Him: "Why don't you come home and I'll get dressed and get the dog food out of the back of the car?"
So, that's what I did. Of course, he was nasty on and off at me for most of the day. He has been super complainy recently, but that absolutely coincides with how he feels about himself. He told me to "drink bleach" because I told him I didn't want to be out shopping with him if he was going to be raging out in public, which he did at an elevator door almost closing on him. So, that was pleasant. By the end of the day out, he was back in lovey dovey happy mode, but as we know, that's fleeting.

[formflier]

FF - His texts were:
"Go do your shopping."
 

Is this "normal" that he directs you to do things?

If it was me I would either ignore it completely or I would respond "Are you asking me to go shopping?"

or perhaps.

"Do you want me to read that as a request or a directive?"

Don't accuse back, but clarify.

Let me think about the verbal back and forth a bit.

My initial thought is "I can answer your question.  Are you interested?"

Best,

FF

[I Am Redeemed]

Two things I am observing, and it's because I have been in exactly the same kinds of situations you describe with the pancakes and the "orders" to do this or that:

1) You said you "immediately" asked him if he wanted pancakes when he came downstairs. That to me signals that you already had a "guilty conscience", because he has "trained" you with his angry behavior to have an "oh, crap" reaction when he came downstairs and you were eating without him. You are reacting to his anger by taking the blame. In other words, he gets mad and you assume that it is correct that he is angry because you did something to make him angry.

He is not angry because you did something to make him angry. He is feeling a negative feeling (rejection, feeling unlovable, feeling disrespected, feeling unworthy or perhaps that he doesn't exist) and looks to the fact that you made pancakes only for yourself as  the source of his negative feelings. He does not see that they originate from an internal source within him.

2) You allow him to order you about and you comply with his orders in an attempt to soothe his feelings and make amends for (imaginary) ways in which you have slighted him. You are wrapped up in this and it is dictating your choices, your thoughts, and your behavior.

Did it occur to you to decide for yourself whether or not you wanted to go get dog food at that precise moment? Or did you simply comply with the request because it would possibly soothe his feelings and prevent further abuse by him?

[Ray2017]

WitzEndWife- I am reading the text about “go do your shopping” the way my H would say it- as a martyr/victim. Kind of like ‘here I am, totally miserable (because of your pancake-making failure), but you go do you...’ and then when you “follow” the order, you get blamed for leaving. A classic lose/lose. I could be reading that totally wrong, but either way it feels like being set up for failure so your actions can now be blamed for the negative feelings he’s experiencing. I struggle with this because I would greatly prefer to choose the “right” thing. Realizing it’s a losing battle no matter what - when I remember, of course- does help me to do what is right for me at the time,  knowing the result from him will be the same either way.

[formflier]

1) You said you "immediately" asked him if he wanted pancakes when he came downstairs. 

I suppose motivation matters here.

In the Navy we are trained to issue a "greeting of the day".  I was also raised that way. 

So I'm completely used to "Good morning, would you like some xyz" when walking into the kitchen.  If I'm in there first, I usually give the greeting an offer.

Also normal to hear  "Hey..good morning, I'm not feeling the best, but there is cereal and xyz."  Basically letting someone know you aren't cooking especially if that is "normal".

OK..as to what to do about this to break the cycle.

I think you should continue to offer.  (does he ever take you up on it?)  If so how often?

When he expresses something odd, directly ask for clarification...but don't suggest.

"are you feeling bad?" (noo)

"are you trying to express how you feel about your day?"  (yesssss)

Let him fill in the blanks

If he starts projecting or "telling you your feelings" I would ask him if he wants to understand your feelings or thoughts.

Stay neutral.

What do you think.

In all this, make sure you keep offering an easy way out rather than shaming him for oddness.

"Oh..perhaps it came out odd.  What were you trying to say again?"



Best,

FF

[WitzEndWife]

Ray2017, your assessment of that is pretty spot on, I think. He'd definitely creating a situation in which he is the poor victim of neglect and I'm his heartless, inconsiderate wife who just goes on doing stuff for herself without him.

On the "Go do your shopping" message - I normally go do my shopping at that time, so it wasn't so much him ordering me as him basically saying, "Go on, abandon me here." That said, we do have issues with him saying things as orders rather than as requests, but he HAS gotten better in that regard.

That said, I AM Redeemed, I think you're hitting the nail on the head with the fact that I do comply with his anger more than I even realize. He has flown into horrible, scary rages in the past and I guess I'm a bit gun-shy where that's concerned. Thankfully, he's normally not quite so controlling, but he has been lately because he feels bad about himself and is going through a serious down spell. Even so, he has basically decreed henceforth that I'm not allowed to make anything for myself without also making some for him. I'm not really sure about how to navigate something like that with a PwBPD. Is it just a matter of doing it anyway and letting him rage out and threaten suicide? I'm at a loss here.

FF - I don't mind offering because it does feel natural to me to do it for someone I care about, BUT I am mindful that I did it this time BECAUSE I was afraid of his anger. The thing about my H is that he's pretty wise to the BPD-diffusing tactics, so he will do gymnastics to try to circumvent them. The only thing that really is his kryptonite and will stop the splitting (eventually) is me leaving home, but realistically I can't do that every single time he splits.

Honestly, work is really stressful, so I try to keep the peace at home, which means capitulating to his rage more than I'd like to, especially because I know this is a temporary state of being, and once he feels better about himself, he'll stop being so controlling. However, I also know that I shouldn't give in because it does tear down his respect for me overall. I swear, the smarter they are, the more insidious a role the BPD symptoms can play in a partner's life.

[formflier]

How long until he leaves for school?

What would happen if you actually left EVERY time for a month? 

I suspect there is intermittent reinforcement going on?

If he is wise to your tactics, get wise to his getting wise. 

"You know what I'm doing and I know what you are doing.  Knock it off.  If you don't, I'm leaving.  I will not live my life this way any more."

Said very matter of fact.

Leave it at that.

Best,

FF

[I Am Redeemed]

I get that it sometimes feels easier in the moment (especially with outside stressors going on) to do whatever it takes to keep the peace. But, you are probably right that it causes him to lose respect for you overall, and it is probably causing you to lose respect for yourself as well. I know it did for me when I was caught in that cycle. I felt absolutely powerless, resentful, and at the mercy of his moods.

Consistency with boundaries is key. FF is right, there is probably some intermittent reinforcement going on which can cause the behavior to be terribly ingrained and repeated incessantly (think slot machine that pays out only so often, and how a person will feel compelled to keep pulling the lever because it might pay off this time, or this time, or this next time, because they have seen it pay off and they think that if they just keep trying they will get the result they want).

[Notwendy]

I think I Am Redeemed stated something that I have been feeling too. Cooking food has been an issue for me too. I think, in a nutshell, cooking is a form of soothing my H, and he somehow sets this up in his mind and then this sets an expectation.

I can relate to these "expectations" that aren't expressed. He will decide " if she loves me, she will do X" but not tell me. I don't think this is on purpose- he may not be realizing it- but he may decide he's feeling badly and project this on to something I need to do to either prove it's true or not. " If she loves me - she will cook me dinner" but the opposite is " she didn't cook me dinner- so she doesn't love me, I'm worthless.. ".

Not being aware of these thoughts and expectations, I inevitably and unintentionally prove the negative. " I don't love him, he's worthless".  To me, I am thinking " the kids have a soccer game tonight" and logically, if I am at the soccer game, then I am not in the kitchen cooking dinner at the same time. But logic doesn't factor into feelings- the feelings are there, even if the facts show that my attending the game has nothing to do with how I feel about him.

We have had this scenario played out so many times, I could not count them. Often with me being totally surprised that I have somehow "done something" to cause him to feel upset when I had no idea. It often happened during times I was busy and distracted and he can feel the difference. It isn't anything I am doing. It's the meaning he makes of what I have done or didn't do. Ironically, he can get immersed in his work and hobbies and ignore me for long periods of time.

For many years, I cooked to "keep the peace". Ironically, I used to like to cook and I am a good cook, but this was co-dependent behavior on my part- I was managing his feelings through cooking and feeling obligated to cook - or cooking out of fear of his anger at me. I began to feel resentment over this, to the point, where I don't want to cook for him. He's picked up on this too.

I do recall times when I got something for myself to eat, and he got angry. Or for the kids. Eventually I learned that I have no control over his thinking or what is in his mind and stopped trying to walk on eggshells with it. There were so many things that didn't connect with the facts. It comes down to his own feelings. When he's feeling badly, the next thing I do or don't do becomes proof of that. I can relate to feeling crazy with the accusations, but I don't buy into that kind of thinking. It does get better some when we realize that just because someone thinks something about us, that doesn't make it true.

[formflier]

I  intermittent reinforcement going on which can cause the behavior to be terribly ingrained and repeated incessantly  

Hey WitzEndWife

I think you should separate this into two thoughts.

"Tactical" and "Strategic".  

"Strategic"...do you want to be dealing this "This" (however we define it) a year from now?  Then ask yourself if the current cost (tactical decisions) is worth it so that after a year (or so), this goes away.

I'll use an example in my relationship.  Money has been (or was) an issue in my relationship for a while.

My wife would "order" me to do things (many that I was already going to do) or perhaps cuss at me or otherwise say demeaning things and then act perplexed that I wouldn't lovingly open up my wallet.  (I'm sure many here have memories of those posts of mine)

Well...I finally got tired of it and decided that I was going zero tolerance (whatever the cost) and I was going to starve this behavior from existence.  I can't say I have a firm start and end date, but it seems to have worked.  As I type this I can't remember the last money argument I had with my wife (certainly a matter of months).

Certainly I did a couple of things that "weren't practical" and some that were quite uncomfortable, many times it would have been easier to have just handed over $20 or whatever.

I'm not telling you which one to pick, I am saying that those paths look very different and you should be intentional about choosing one.

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

On the reinforcement- it was interesting that one of the first things a MC told me was to "stop cooking for him". She surely picked up on this-that I was cooking to manage emotions and out of fear.

She pointed out that the same behaviors can be loving or co-dependent. I could cook willingly and as a gesture of caring. But I wasn't doing that. It was fear based and co-dependent. There is really nothing wrong with cooking dinner for my husband. It was the motive and fear that was the issue.

It is interesting that I was completely terrified to not cook for him. I don't think that's a sign of an emotionally healthy relationship. I think in a typical family, a spouse might say " the kids have a game tonight, or I had a long day at work" and the partner might say "Ok I'll fix something, or get take out for us". This didn't happen.

Yet, I believed I was the only one causing problems in the marriage. I was so used to being blamed by my BPD mom, I didn't question it. I did have to learn to manage the co-dependent behaviors.

[formflier]

And I was completely terrified to "close my wallet" because I knew it would be twisted.  Especially in Christian circles "where the man provides".

I decided that I would much rather deal with that fallout (which really wasn't much in the end)...rather than try to manage moods with my wallet.

Best,

FF

[WitzEndWife]

OMG - notwendy, you're totally right there. I love cooking for people, but I am at times scared of the reaction if I decide to only cook for myself. Most of the time it's just a matter of dishing out a portion of what I've already made anyway, as we're both home, but there are other times when I really want to eat something that I like that he doesn't like, and I just don't do it because I know he'll feel slighted.

My T says it's like giving control over to a toddler. She says, "You wouldn't let a toddler order you around, would you?" I of course say no. But my "toddler" has me trained. I'm thinking about all that I'm afraid to do:
- afraid to cook food for myself and not him because I'm afraid he'll complain about me being inconsiderate
- afraid to not call him if I'm going to be home after 6 p.m. because he'll throw a fit
- afraid to go grocery shopping without him because he'll think I'm abandoning him
- afraid to complain that he's left a mess on the dining room table because he'll either rage out or threaten to harm himself
- afraid to spend time with one of my best friends because he holds a grudge against this person
- afraid to go visit my parents when I want to because he complains about them
- afraid to refuse to open the wallet for things because he'll say I don't support him or go into a self-hating spiral
- afraid to get a plant because he actually killed the last one I had because I refused to take it to my place of work (he put it outside in the cold overnight and killed it on purpose)

And even if I'm not afraid to do things, I still feel guilt about doing them. Like, enjoying my "me" time around the house. I can never FULLY enjoy it because I'm always worrying about what he's thinking. When I take inventory of all of this, it's no wonder why I'm so stressed all the time.

I find myself hoping and praying that he'll go off to do his course in another state. He has postponed the start date until mid-March, but he is procrastinating on doing the things he needs to do to get it done. Instead, he spends his days on Twitter and YouTube. He keeps saying how badly he wants to do this course, but he's also afraid of taking care of himself, so he's doing whatever he can to sabotage it so that he doesn't have to - I guess.

Meanwhile, I keep waiting for him to leave, thinking that's going to be my opportunity to get clarity and feel free. I'm starting to wonder if it will ever really happen, or if this is yet another fake out on his part. If it is, I can't deal with it. I'm sick of this.

I know I have to stop the intermittent reinforcement and stop giving in. I know that probably makes his reactions worse because he thinks he can get me to crack. Ugh. I hate this. I wouldn't wish this situation on any human being, ever.

[Notwendy]

FF - we also have a "traditional" relationship where the man provides, buthere were expectations on his part about what the woman should do that I didn't have a good example of.

Growing up, my father provided, and my BPD mother didn't do much that I could see- no housework, no cooking. His responsibilities and contribution seemed out of proportion to the teamwork I imagined marriage would be.

In my H's family, his mother basically waited on his father.

I didn't want either. I surely didn't want to be like my mother. I thought of marriage as a team. I also had a degree and a career. While I felt the traditional relationship was best for the family as a whole under the circumstances, I also didn't envision myself as the only one to cook, or clean up, or raise the kids. But asking my H for help resulted in a lot of raging, silent treatment, accusations that I wasn't being the kind of wife I should be.

That resulted in a lot of fear, fear of being "seen" by him as being like my mother, who I don't think was fair to my father. My H used the "it isn't fair "argument with me. Since I didn't know what "normal" was, I took on being more like his mother in hopes of pleasing him and keeping the peace. It did result in less conflict.

It's interesting how our own family background plays into marital conflicts. I didn't have a normal role model for marriage. I surely didn't want to be like my mother, but also was not happy being in a doormat role in the marriage. I think a better situation is somewhere in between, but I didn't know what that is like.

[formflier]

I know I have to stop the intermittent reinforcement and stop giving in. 

Or, give in all the time on that particular issue.  (I'm not suggesting you do this, but there is another way to avoid the "intermittent" part of this)

I delayed attempting to do my first boundary because I was not ready and wanted to think it through.

Senior members (at the time) advised me to do nothing/change nothing until I was ready to follow through, even in the face of an extinction burst.

So perhaps the question is, what can you do to "get ready" for an approach where you completely stop giving in?

Totally separate question, if you decide you need a few months, what does "giving in" look like?  How can you "give in" without encouraging more bad behavior?  (I'm trying to imagine how you fixing him food is normal and yet you don't get upset when he xyz about the way you did it)

You made it to early, therefore you don't care about me.
You plated your food first, therefore you don't care about me.
You plated my food first, so you save the best for last..for you..therefore you don't care about me.

You get the picture..

Best,

FF

Best

[WitzEndWife]

Hmm...I'm not really sure, FF, what you mean about "giving in" without encouraging bad behavior. I can't even imagine what that would look like.

Can you help me understand?

[formflier]

  How can you "give in" without encouraging more bad behavior?  

Ok..I think this is what you are asking about..right?

So I would make a habit of making him a small something everytime you make yourself something.  Perhaps just enough so that you can eat it if he never shows or that you can wrap it up for later. 

So you don't want to waste but you NEVER want to let him catch you making just for yourself.

Be proactive...he walks in the room "Hey..can you try this?  I was thinking about you and put something together for you."

I still don't want you to respond or "reason" with him if he does weir stuff..demands.  I would suggest you are perplexed. 

"Babe..I'm stunned.  The food I made you is over here...I need to think."  (exit convo)

Note: all if this isn't my recommended course of action, but it's what I suggest if you aren't ready to draw clear boundaries..and be consistent.

What do you think?

Best,

FF

[WitzEndWife]

Oh, okay, I get it now. Honestly, we know it's not about the food, it's about how he feels about himself, but I know that if I don't make him food, he will go into a tailspin, so making him something feels like the best way I can get through this time for myself. Making extra food doesn't bother me much - I'm usually making a pot of something anyway, so it really isn't a big deal.

One thing he does that I don't understand is hang out in the garage in the pitch dark for HOURS. I don't know what that's about and it's really strange and it worries me. I don't know if he's there just having panic attacks or what, but he gets really irritable when I try to get him out. He was in there for 4 hours overnight last night, then he came in and fell asleep on the couch. I try to just ignore this stuff and focus on myself, but the added drama in my household stresses me out and I can't get a good night's sleep. I found myself waking up every 1.5 hours, seeing his absence in the bed and the lights still on upstairs, and feeling weird. It's not great for me, since I'm trying to keep a normal routine and maintain my sanity.

[formflier]

Here is the thing.

If you went somewhere to have quiet time and he came and "tried to get you out"...how would you and most other people react?

Catch me up again on when he is leaving?  Course?  Was it all a bunch of talk?

Best,

FF

[WitzEndWife]

I get that, but he can't spend his whole life in the garage. Needing alone time every once in a while is one thing, but disappearing for hours every single day and night in the pitch darkness is strange, especially when there are things that need to be done around the house that he neglects doing this. And let's be real - when I need alone time and he needs something from me, he will seek me out. With the exception of taking a bath or going on a walk, I can't ever be anywhere in the house by myself if I'm intending to be by myself. Like, if I went into a room and locked the door, he would be pounding on it within minutes. So, he's a major hypocrite where that's concerned.

Anyway, yes, he's going for a course. He still says how much he wants to do this, but has not worked in weeks. The way I see it is that it's not my job to "mommy" him and ask him if he's done this or that task. I'm not rescuing him and nagging at him to do something he supposedly wants to do. He is an adult. Either he goes or he doesn't go, but if he doesn't go, I get to decide what I do after that. He's said he's overwhelmed, but he doesn't respond to suggestions to help with that, so I'm just going to let him spin. If he doesn't go, then I get to say, "Now, what? You don't have to do X but you can't do nothing." If he wants to sit on his duff all day, he can do that at his mother's house.

[formflier]

  but if he doesn't go, I get to decide what I do after that. 

Why don't you get to decide now?

How much financial support do you still give him?  I'm trying to understand his life if he hasn't worked in weeks, yet is overwhelmed. 

What is he doing?

Best,

FF

[PeteWitsend]

I get that, but he can't spend his whole life in the garage. Needing alone time every once in a while is one thing, but disappearing for hours every single day and night in the pitch darkness is strange, especially when there are things that need to be done around the house that he neglects doing this. And let's be real - when I need alone time and he needs something from me, he will seek me out. With the exception of taking a bath or going on a walk, I can't ever be anywhere in the house by myself if I'm intending to be by myself. Like, if I went into a room and locked the door, he would be pounding on it within minutes. So, he's a major hypocrite where that's concerned.

ha, I know this all too well.  It's really bizarre; it's almost like pwBPD panic when they see you doing something by yourself.  They can't seem to comprehend others might need "alone time" too, and this is not a threat to the relationship; their behavior (on the contrary) is. 
The hours in the garage in pitch darkness is a little strange, but to be honest, I would've loved it if my XW did that... actual quiet time for me!    As it was, she couldn't stand to be alone.  If I wasn't there, she'd be on her phone or on facebook, chatting with her mom or her friends.  However, if she wanted my attention, or if I was on the phone with a friend or relative, she'd get upset.

Anyway, yes, he's going for a course. He still says how much he wants to do this, but has not worked in weeks. The way I see it is that it's not my job to "mommy" him and ask him if he's done this or that task. I'm not rescuing him and nagging at him to do something he supposedly wants to do. He is an adult. Either he goes or he doesn't go, but if he doesn't go, I get to decide what I do after that. He's said he's overwhelmed, but he doesn't respond to suggestions to help with that, so I'm just going to let him spin. If he doesn't go, then I get to say, "Now, what? You don't have to do X but you can't do nothing." If he wants to sit on his duff all day, he can do that at his mother's house.

This kinda sounds like you're managing this particular situation as though it was an isolated incident.  really though, you have much bigger issues with him, and I'd remember to focus on yourself, and whether your needs are being met, not whether he did this one (1) thing you asked him to do.  While that sounds kinda selfish, I don't think it is in the context here (or in any relationship with a pwBPD).  If he did start working, there would still be all the other issues you've had & have related here. 

[WitzEndWife]

I talked to my therapist last week and she wanted me to focus on what I need for support. I think that, because I have a problem with my own vulnerability and being emotionally available myself, I attract people who need my support but who don't know how to or can't support me. For me, it's hard to even think about what that would even look like. I find myself thinking about the people who courted me in the past who were kind people and I thought they were "too much," or maybe I felt like I didn't deserve to be treated with kindness. Yes, I think that's it. I think the key here is not in asking him to do or not do anything - right now, that is - unless he does something egregious. I think the key is becoming a better friend to myself, being kinder to myself. Not just in a hokey, self love kind of way, but really being kind to myself, compassionate. I'm getting there, but this is really making me see how important it is. Because if I can't be supportive and kind to myself, then I'll never believe I deserve it from anyone else.

[Cat Familiar]

It sounds like you’re getting to some very deep seated issues in your therapy. 

Your situation reminds me of some elements from my first marriage. Like you, I was subjected to bullying in school and I internalized some of that cruelty. I think that was part of why I tolerated an abusive BPD/NPD/ASPD husband for as long as I did.

That was part of it. The other part was that I felt superior to him in a variety of ways. All in all it was an unhealthy dynamic and though I’m again married to a pwBPD, our relationship is on a level footing. There’s lots about him that I admire and he treats me really well, but there’s just those irritating BPD issues now and then, but we now manage well, thanks to what I’ve learned here.

[Notwendy]

I think your T is on to something important. It's our own poor self esteem that keeps us with people who treat us poorly- or that we don't know any different.

I tolerated being treated poorly because I was expected to tolerate that from my parents. It was probably more my Dad than my mom, because he also showed love to me but made it clear my feelings didn't matter. He made sure our basic needs were met, but was so co-dependent on my mother. Between the two of them, I learned I had to constantly try to please others to be loved and not to expect them to reciprocate. I'm still uncomfortable if someone is nice to me, because, if my mother is nice to me, it's because she is manipulating me.

It was easy to recognize the kinds of extreme behaviors my mother has. Thankfully I was able to avoid these in relationships, but not the low expectations. In the earlier years of my marriage, my H treated me poorly, with intermittent reinforcement where he was on occasion attentive- like the person I fell in love with. It was Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde and I felt responsible for the issues between us.

It was personal change that led to other improvements. I don't allow anyone to treat me poorly. I admit , it was harder to set boundaries with my parents when my father was alive. I wanted his approval.

[WitzEndWife]

I'm definitely codependent because of the bullying I received in school and also some incidents that happened with extended family when I was a kid. I seek external validation all of the time, which is one reason I get sucked into these BPD situations. I feel valued, at first. They tell me I'm smart, beautiful, talented, cool, etc. That's like music to my ears. But then, when they start devaluing me, it's always a similar pattern. My H and I got into our early arguments and I would be the one to storm out of the apartment. And, I knew, of course, he'd inevitably chase me. The one time he made me cry, he immediately felt remorseful and would do anything to make it better. That stuff was endearing to me, made me feel loved, and, again, valued. But eventually that all unraveled and I was devalued more and more and more. The first time he really split on me was when his car broke down on the highway. He went off on me for something really trivial, being incredibly abusive. People were staring. It was right before our wedding. I told myself and him that if he did something like that again, the wedding would be called off. It didn't happen again until after the wedding, of course.

But I ignored other red flags: the fact that he totally fast-forwarded our relationship and moved in right away (because he would have had to go back to his home country otherwise), the fact that he had never really held down a job, the fact that he had a pretty sordid past, his dissociative episodes in public. I kept making excuses to myself because here was someone who finally was transparent in their feelings for me, a far cry from the emotionally unavailable men I kept running into at the time. He liked me, he wasn't scared of commitment, he liked my dog as much as I did. I never really stopped to think, "Hmm...do I really like him?" I mean, I liked him well enough and had fun with him, but I also thought he was a basketcase.

And then we really started to butt heads after we got married. He changed a lot. It's almost as if he changed his views purposely to be counter to mine so that we would have something to fight about. Anyway, I ignored myself and maybe thought that this was the best offer I was going to get. I was in my late 30s and hadn't found anyone who actually stuck around. It was like I was some flower, waiting to be picked for marriage by the right guy, but feeling sad because I was never "the one" for anyone. Now, of course, this wasn't the case. I was avoiding the emotionally available guys in favor of the ones who weren't. A guy who was emotionally ambiguous or gave mixed signals? I was hooked. And time had marched on and here I was, feeling like I was scraping the bottom of the barrel. So, I ignored the fact that he was an emotional mess and focused on the fact that he was kind to me and genuinely wanted to do good. And, when that dissolved, I was left with the emotional mess and a lot of angst and drama.

Boy, when I learn my lessons, I learn them the hardest way possible.

[AskingWhy]

Boy, when I learn my lessons, I learn them the hardest way possible.

WEW, I was also bullied as a child.  The abuse I suffered at the hands of my uBPD/uNPD M set me up for this.  It was like I had a "kick me" sign on the back of my clothes.  I had very little self esteem and NPD children saw this and had a field day with it.

I have taken all of my adult life (I am now retired) to overcome the brutality of my childhood at the hands of this parent and those who also abused me. I had a marriage to a uBPD man end when he devalued me and left, and now married to another uBPD man.

Both marriages, like yours, had quick courtships where I was swept off my feet.  As a child, I really wanted to be valued and these men seemed to fulfill that need.  In my current marriage (20+ years), I quickly became second fiddle to my H's children from his first marriage to a uNPD high school sweetheart.  After 10 years of marriage, she left him for a lover and took the children.  Away from his children, he overvalued them when they came to visit and put them over me, the adult, in power in the household.  I had no power as an adult in the house.  In time, the children grew to adolescence and adulthood and used their own father as a doormat; at this, I put my foot down.  At least the children would not make me into a door mat.  A great recipe for marital discord.  A sane person would have left a year into the marriage, saying, "I deserve better," but since I did not have that self esteem, I stayed.  Now here I am 20 years later.

Before we were married, his children, then all quite young, were visiting from their mother from out of state.  I came home from work (we were living together) and saw H with his three children on his lap and his arm around his son.  I expected at least a greeting since we were engaged.  H was splitting.  He looked up at me, said nothing, as though looking through me, and then continued to smile and coo at his children.  I said under my breath, "Well, that's a heckuva greeting."  I angrily put down my briefcase, kicked off my work high heels and went directly to the bedroom to change into my home wear. 

H raged at me for my response.  He raged, "What the h*ll did you want me to do?  Drop the children off my lap and run to greet you?"  Splitting.  Of course, not.  At least I wanted him to say hello with a smile as I was going to be their new stepmother and they needed to know he loved me.

Time went on.  Each year passed and my H would project his anger at his X W onto me. I have a medical disability and I cannot drive or walk much.  One time, H drove me to a medical procedure where I had to have someone drive me home.  H raged quietly all the way there, resenting me for needing the help, then raged openly on the way home.  I was upset at his lack of empathy and said so, and his response was to stop the car in the middle of the street, getting out of the car and leaving me unable to drive in the passenger seat, a sitting duck to oncoming traffic.  I was still drugged from the procedure and in a leg splint, but frantic to get out of the car and enter the driver's seat to drive the car to safety.  In a few minutes, H reappeared and got back into the driver's seat and cursed and name called me, saying I had better learn to "treat him better" or he would abandon me in traffic again.

You can't make this up.  Only the partner of BPD could understand.  To this day, I don't trust him, and I laugh up my sleeve when one of his precious child (especially the daughters) suffers the consequences of their cruelty and poor life choices.

We can only move forward.  We learn lessons and grow.  We can look back and be happy with the strides we have made in self awareness.  Should this marriage come to an end, and this is always a possibility with a BPD partner, I will move into my next relationships with my eyes much wider as I am armed with higher self esteem and knowledge of what a mentally healthy man is like.  

Take it easy on yourself.  

[WitzEndWife]

Thanks AskingWhy. It's always so interesting to hear people's "origin stories" with their BPD relationships. My husband has stopped the car and gotten out and has driven crazily with me in the car in the past, so I somewhat understand - although I can drive.

I ask myself a lot why I stay and I used to not understand the reason. I do know it now. It's a fear of someone who valued me devaluing me permanently - because that's what I've lived for so long - and a fear of hurting him (because he often plays the kicked puppy who has been wounded by me, the heartless monster). I take these things to heart, even though I know somewhere it's not true. It still makes me doubt and shame myself.

I think, until I can be free of that shame, I will never be comfortable sticking up for myself, truly. Because he will always be able to manipulate me. The key to becoming someone he can't manipulate is really in being the person I need to be for myself. And that's hard work.

[Notwendy]

My H has driven angrily in the car one time and that was frightening. More often, he'd give me the silent treatment. That doesn't happen anymore as I don't put up with it.

I can relate to the shame feelings. But I think it's important that we work on this. Someone can't shame us unless we have these feelings.

I didn't know what was going on in my marriage and read a lot of books. One of them was called the "Passionate Marriage". I have written about it here before. It's steamy- but that seemed like a distraction from the relationship information in it as it was really good, and of course, issues in a marriage can affect intimacy, the topic of the book.

A part that stood out to me is that we "match our partners" in emotional issues and our degree of enmeshement. The next part was that "each partner thinks he or she is more "differentiated" ( a term for emotional maturity, less enmeshment") than their partner. Wow. Consider how we are all here talking about our partner's behavior- imagine that we match them in some ways ( maybe not the same way). This can give us an idea of what we can work on, since we can work on ourselves more effectively than to try to change someone else.

Witz end, you can imagine that your H's issues also match your feelings of being responsible for him and fear of him devaluing you. Someone without your emotional make up may have kicked him to the curb long ago. But somehow he meets an emotional need for you, and vice versa.

It was a mystery at first to see where I may have emotionally matched my H. His mother didn't have BPD but after getting to know her, I could see that she is very co-dependent and controlling and this was part of the emotional match.

I think you are on to something important when it comes to working on shame and focusing on feeling deserving.

[jaded7]

Thanks AskingWhy. It's always so interesting to hear people's "origin stories" with their BPD relationships. My husband has stopped the car and gotten out and has driven crazily with me in the car in the past, so I somewhat understand - although I can drive.

I ask myself a lot why I stay and I used to not understand the reason. I do know it now. It's a fear of someone who valued me devaluing me permanently - because that's what I've lived for so long - and a fear of hurting him (because he often plays the kicked puppy who has been wounded by me, the heartless monster). I take these things to heart, even though I know somewhere it's not true. It still makes me doubt and shame myself.

I think, until I can be free of that shame, I will never be comfortable sticking up for myself, truly. Because he will always be able to manipulate me. The key to becoming someone he can't manipulate is really in being the person I need to be for myself. And that's hard work.

I've been reading this thread and it's really informative. You have a good way of expressing yourself and making the situation understandable.

I'm in the middle of the longest no contact with a woman I love but who is psychologically, emotionally and verbally abusive and who has really damaged my spirit. She too has really scared me with her driving, once violently pulling off to the shoulder on a busy freeway in the dark and rain, coming to a sudden stop and telling me I had to walk home 5 miles. I begged her to calm down, told her in a calm voice that this was really dangerous and to please drive home. I promised her I wouldn't say another word and we could finish 'discussing'  (I was JADEing about something she was yelling at me about, and I didn't know then that it just enraged them more) when we got home. She relented and got on the highway, then IMMEDIATELY began attacking me again.

But this is the part that nearly made me cry.

I do know it now. It's a fear of someone who valued me devaluing me permanently - because that's what I've lived for so long - and a fear of hurting him (because he often plays the kicked puppy who has been wounded by me, the heartless monster). I take these things to heart, even though I know somewhere it's not true. It still makes me doubt and shame myself.

I think, until I can be free of that shame, I will never be comfortable sticking up for myself, truly. Because he will always be able to manipulate me. The key to becoming someone he can't manipulate is really in being the person I need to be for myself. And that's hard work.

In the middle of now 1 month no contact, I fear and worry that she has permanently devalued me, and it hurts so much. I was lying in bed this morning crying about just this. And ALSO, the fear of hurting him. It is the LAST thing I would ever want to do to her, and yet SOMEHOW I always 'managed' to do it, no matter my intentions or wishes for her. That is a form of manipulation, and if you read my in a thread I started you'll see that our last communication was all about a situation she manipulated into happening, then attacked me for not being there for her. Which has nearly destroyed me.

So now, I wallow is pain and shame and worry that I'm hurting her even more by not communicating with her.

Just to say, your words helped me clarify some of my confused feelings, and your whole thread is one of the 'best' I've read on here for it's self-awareness and insights.