Ex trying to force me into different things, + constant texts etc

[momtara]

Hi everyone. Sometimes I go a while without posting on here, which only means I'm handling things with my BPD ex-H, not that they're great.
I divorced him 4 years ago. The kids were both toddlers so they weren't too affected. They see him every other weekend and sometimes he cancels last minute which is frustrating (I can't really have any sort of social life this way) but I really don't care about that as much as our kids' well being, and they've turned out pretty OK so far.
But our older child's teachers recommend extra help for him in a meeting a month ago and so we all had a child study team meeting. They recommended he see a specialist. Without going into too much detail, this set off my ex, who used to often get triggered by any sort of professional (I guess he feels he loses control). After the meeting, he kept calling, texting, and emailing me for a week, and also emailing one of the teachers to complain about one word the teacher used in the meeting. But finally, all of that negative communication passed and ex calmed down for a bit.
This week, the next meeting was set, and ex has been calling me several times a day all week. He wants our child, who's almost 7, to be in the next Child Study Team meeting! He insists that he thinks I agreed to this in a separate phone call, but he's imagining it. My ex has been leaving me long messages about this. My concern is that he's more triggered now than he's been in years, and I hate that he'll be triggered when he has the kids next. I want to somehow calm him and validate him but I don't think there's a way. Knowing him, he'll want me to agree to have our son in this meeting, and maybe if I agree, he will then back off (he does this often) but first he wants to show his control somehow.
I know your response is that I should tell him I'm not interested in discussing it, or just say no to his request. But this will just subject me to a week of ragey phone calls, texts, and emails. Setting a boundary doesn't necessarily shut things down, sometimes makes things even more tense - and while the kids are there, too.
We have a Parent Coordinator who we haven't seen since summer. Why? Because ex canceled several meetings with her in the last 6 months, claiming he was ill. So for two weeks I've been asking our PC to call me. The PC hasn't called me back when I contacted her about this. It really bothers me that someone who's job it is to deal with people like him is not getting back to me (how can *I* deal with him if she can't?)
He is supposed to take the kids at the end of this coming week, so I'd rather not have things tense. Seems like my choices are:
-Refuse to talk to him all week, but constantly hear the phone ringing, texts buzzing, etc. These are not messages that look harassing to the average person - he is asking questions related to the kids, but the same ones over and over.
-Email him and say he has been harassing me and to please stop. Problem is, then he may not communicate with me about things we NEED to, like when he's taking the kids. I'm trying to keep the lines of communication open.
-Keep hoping our PC will call back and help me
-Have my lawyer send him some kind of letter saying he needs to stop the excessive calls, emails, and texts. We do have a protocol laying out communication guidelines, but I haven't had to bring it up in a while.
I guess I'm trying to keep the peace and allow him to feel validated, but now he's trying to bring our kid into something and I don't want our son involved in this.
What's kind of hard about dealing with our exes, I think, is when they do things that don't completely cross a line (not illegal) yet constantly are maddening - canceling PC appointments, changing the schedule, calling but pretending it's about kid stuff when it's really just meant to harass. I try to be "gray rock" and not complain about schedule changes because honestly, sometimes he probably isn't able to take the kids. But I feel like he's unraveling now and I don't know when this downslide will stop. If he sends me a text while I'm working and I don't respond in 15 min, he follows up with a phone call. Then another text. Then a phone message, "ARE YOU GONNA CALL ME BACK?"
I think sending an email asking him to stop doing this will only set him off more, and then he's taking the kids and they'll see the raging.
What would you do?

[momtara]

I was telling a friend about all of this and have a shorter version:
There's a school meeting coming up to talk about small ways to help one of my kids who's a bit ADD. This has triggered ex H, who has been calling me nightly to yell about various things. He's insisting he wants me to ask the school to let our young child to sit in on the whole meeting. I've never heard of such a thing. He wants to have a discussion about it with me Wed, because he wants me to ask to the school to do this. I want to validate his idea or emotions and yet I don't see any reason to allow this. Just saying "no" will make me sound like I don't compromise and listen and coparent. Any thoughts on phrasing? Am I off the mark for thinking his suggestion is weird?

[GaGrl]

"I've been advised that a child of seven years is too young to be included in a strategic education meeting. Please be at the meeting (date/time/place) for our next discussion. In the meantime, I ask that you reduce your communications to logistics regarding pickups, etc."

 then turn off your notifications on phone calls, texts, emails and look at them once a day.

Next step would be to pull in your lawyer.

What do you think is triggering your ex?

[momtara]

Thank you! To answer your question, whenever professionals get involved, it means less control for him. Plus I think he had issues in school when younger.

I appreciate the no-nonsense basic response. I need to get better at using as few words as possible. I let him yell at me on the phone all last week and tap-danced around it. I will send him an email Wednesday (I said I'd get back to him then) making it clear that I disagree with his requests.

Only thing that worries me is that he's angry when he has the kids. But I can't let this stuff go on and on and on. He either has to calm down, or I need better boundaries.

As for my lawyer, we have a PC who should be getting involved. I will bring in my lawyer if I need to, though.

[ForeverDad]

Our typical explanation for saying No is that the decision isn't ours alone.  For example, "My lawyer told me I can't do or approve that" removes us from being the Bad News Bearer.  Well, somewhat.  But that's part of the job we pay lawyers for.

Similarly, verify with your school professionals what their position is.  (Hopefully they will stick to it when ex pressures them and starts demanding differently.  You may need to warn them what ex is attempting so they're not caught off guard.)  That's the answer for your ex, "I asked the school department and I was told that's not the process and I can't do or approve that."  Essentially, it's a way to defuse, delegate or redirect the blame elsewhere.

[livednlearned]

Another possibility might be: "I will meet with you and ______ for the meeting and we can discuss with them ways to involve S7, perhaps in a forum designed specifically to include S7. I will not consider having S7 at this first meeting."

My ex was also very triggered by professionals and teachers and had odd ideas about how to support our son. I think he was so sensitive to being judged or analyzed or "found out" by someone with professional training. For people with no real boundaries, it can feel like the dx of their child is a dx of them, and that it's a negative thing to be labeled.

As for him being angry with the kids, it might be worth asking your lawyer what would happen if you kept them (with notice) until he has worked through his agitation.

I kept (then) S10 with me after an incident at school happened (shortly after divorce, acting out stuff) that I knew would put n/BPDx over the edge. I couldn't send S10 to his dad's for a weekend knowing how psychotic things could be, not to mention abusive. So I kept him.

My L was upset, not because I kept him, but because I didn't consult with her first. She wanted me to write specific phrases to n/BPDx when it did it. Her concern was being able to defend me if ex took legal action.

It all worked out, thankfully.

If your ex is triggered, he is likely to rage one way or another until he's able to return to baseline. If he's able to be rational he might be able to compromise with a second "meeting" that is more child appropriate.

Is ex still living with his parents?

[worriedStepmom]

We dealt with some of the same behaviors with H's ex.  Like you, for a long time H tried to validate and appease his ex so that she'd be calmer when she had SD.

It didn't work for us, and it sounds like it might not be working for you anymore, either.  I felt like we were under siege sometimes because the phone just would not stop ringing.

We finally set really, really strong boundaries.  All communication has to go through a parenting app, and ex is blocked on H's phone and mine.  The parenting app is great because it shows when someone reads a message.  This soothed a teeny bit of ex's anxiety, because now she knows that H isn't ignoring the message, he just hasn't seen the message.   It helps H because he only has to look at the app when he wants to.  It also means we have lots of evidence of inappropriate and crazy behavior.  Can you move to something like that?

There were times that the dysregulation spilled over to ex's time with SD12.  We documented all of that to use as evidence to reduce ex's custody time.  If she could not be stable around SD, then she shouldn't have SD.  On a few really bad days, we withheld SD (after talking to the L).  It was rough for SD, but H got her into therapy to help her learn boundaries of her own.

You are doing the right thing keeping your son out of this meeting. 

[momtara]

Thank you all for understanding and your helpful advice.

Ex is demanding a conversation with me about this some time this week.

Livednlearned, yes he still lives with his parents (thanks for remembering, although sometimes I'm vague about things like that on here and subtly change some details, just in case he ever found this thread...but yes, he does live with them. I still get a little worried, though.)

I haven't talked to my L in a few years, primarily because I don't really have anything for her to DO right now. I talked to our PC last in June and she was going to reach out to ex to set up a meeting -- and then I never heard from her again. She actually TRAINS PC's, so it bothers me that maybe he intimidated even her? He chased away our prior 2 PC's. She hasn't responded to my emails over a few months. I know she's busy and maybe dealing with more urgent matters but I'm concerned. I just called her office and sent her another email and also sent her one Thursday. What's my recourse if even a PC who trains PC's stops responding?

Ex and I have compromised on a few things lately (schedules etc) and he can exact revenge by undoing what we agreed on, for one thing. SO I don't want to completely cut him off, but don't want to get engaged in a long fight and bullied into submission this week.

Ny biggest issue right now is how to send him a firm yet validating response. I can't tell him that professionals or experts told me not to have our son at the meeting - he'll ask why I consulted them behind his back and who they are.

I'd like to ask our PC about this but she won't respond. So what do I say to him?

This request to have our son attend the meeting comes out of nowhere and I just don't know how to respond, and don't want to lie and say professionals advised me on something. I can ask the school, but he'll want to be involved in that too and get angry that I did it without telling him.

[kells76]

Ugh, he sounds like my DH's ex.

It's been important for her that the kids be an audience when she and DH talked. Especially back when they were younger, it meant that they would take her side in front of DH. Or, she would get the kids to ask DH for something "that they wanted" (which was what Mom really wanted). She would frame it as "they're old enough to choose X" or "We need to listen to their voices" (as their voices just happen to echo Mom's desires... eyeroll).

SD13 had a head impact a couple of months ago -- hit her head, then puked once. DH canceled a friend get-together and kept the kids at home. SD13 had a soccer game the next day and fortunately the coach said No way. I wasn't sure of next steps because I do know that with concussions, you can "feel OK" but not really be OK. I had to call her Dr's office (based on a guess of who it was) and "hypothetically" describe a situation in order to get their protocol, because Mom did not have me on the "ok to have info" list. If SD13 had met their protocol for an office visit I would have brought her in. I texted Mom to see if she would at least update SD13's med records but she said that "this one wasn't as bad as the ones she had in [other sport] so I'm not taking her in". Yay.

I can ask the school, but he'll want to be involved in that too and get angry that I did it without telling him.

I wonder if you can call the school, describe a "hypothetical" situation: "Under what circumstances would a 7YO participate in a conference about X"... maybe frame/dial in the questions even more, to get a sense of what they will do. Maybe that info could guide your next steps.

Would he find out if you asked the school before deciding "with" him?

I can't tell him that professionals or experts told me not to have our son at the meeting - he'll ask why I consulted them behind his back and who they are.

It's tricky, but maybe there's some way to get that idea of what the school would do "in general" as step 1. Then step 2 could be emailing ex: "Thanks for your thoughts about Son. Let's email the school together and see what they recommend for our specific situation."

Tough stuff. Do you think he has a "sixth sense" sort of thing for when you get info without him?

[momtara]

talking to PC...will update

[momtara]

Kells76, thank you. That's a good idea about the hypothetical. They'd know what I was getting at, I'm sure.
So in my latest email and phone message to the PC today, I stressed that I wanted to have a private phone call with her, and also think we should set up a meeting down the road. I said my ex was getting increasingly angry and I was worried.
She DID call me back just now, finally.
She said she just had a lot of clients and it didn't seem until now that things were coming to a head. I wish she'd gotten back to me months ago, but at least I got to tell her everything that's been going on just now.
Her solution is to CC her on the next email in response to my ex. And now she has the background, and then we can set up a meeting with her. I think that makes sense. I don't want our child drawn into this debate over whether our young son should be going to the school meeting, either. I just didn't want to handle this one alone.
So I am going to respond to his latest email tomorrow night and CC our PC. Then she is going to suggest to us both a series of possible days we can meet in person with her.
Thanks for helping me get better perspective on all this, everyone. If PC wasn't an option I don't know what my next step would be when he's being a bully -- people coparenting/coping with a mentally ill ex really need someone besides a lawyer and police to help them navigate not-quite illegal situations before they come to a head. I tiptoed a lot last week and now hopefully with our PC involved I won't have to do it alone this week, and then hopefully ex will be on notice so he's not scaring me (and our kids, who heard him yelling last week and were nervous about it, too).

[livednlearned]

I'm so curious what his rationale is for wanting your son to be at the meeting.

I understand when the kids are older why some schools do it that way.

Does your ex treat the kids in age appropriate ways?

If this is an IEP or 504 meeting, or even just the beginning steps leading up to them, those meetings can feel pretty intimidating and loaded, even for parents.

[momtara]

Agree with all.
My PC asked why he wants him there too.
My guess is - it's because I DON'T want him there.
My PC suggested I ask him. I don't want to go down that road. That will just be more fights.
Going to respond in an email and cc the PC although it's hard to keep it brief, like I should. But I shall do my best.

[MeandThee29]

Bill Eddy's BIFF approach is brilliant. Here's a brief summary:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/5-types-people-who-can-ruin-your-life/201809/biff-4-ways-respond-hostile-comments

If you repeatedly do that, it may drop the emotions down and set a business-like tone.

And as others said, let your lawyer and school officials do the heavy lifting. It's their role and speciality.

I continue to watch more money go out the door to the lawyers (LOL), but they've gotten more done than I could.

Also, I reply to him only when it is the right time for me to do that. I have a life too and many concerns that are important to me and are none of his business. I never tell him that, but nothing with him is urgent.

[livednlearned]

Do you have a sense of how the school would respond if your child appeared at the meeting?

The natural consequence of your ex’s demands might play out with a deferred meeting, no? Or perhaps a teacher offers to spend time with your son during the meeting once the realize oops the child is here..

Maybe you could consult with the family specialist confidentially, if your sons school has one. “I’m trying to manage an awkward situation and could use your confidential input. Maybe ex wants x and I want y, and I do not want to escalate or inflame our already tricky relationship ship. What are your thoughts on his request and how do you recommend we proceed. It is critical that my ex does not perceive my involvement. I’m in a tricky spot.”

Ideally you would say to your ex no is no is no. I understand it’s not always easy and our own anxieties can make it challenging to stand up to bullying. Maybe there is a meet halfway point for you that involves getting both support and info from school professionals.

[momtara]

Thank you.
I talked to ex and said I don't see a reason for our son to be at an adult meeting. He kept insisting he wanted ME to ask the school to allow him in. I repeated that I didn't understand the reason for the request, so I couldn't be the one to make it. During the half hour of dealing with his anger, I said I'd be happy to discuss it with our PC. Ultimately he dropped it. He said it's too expensive to meet with PC and he won't meet with her.
But then he kept also insisting I email our son's teacher about something else. I agreed to that just to give in. I emailed the teacher Thursday.
And...he let a day go by without texting and calling me. Then texted and called all day yesterday and this morning saying we NEED to talk about the upcoming meeting. There's literally nothing left to talk about and I'm tired of being yelled at about it. So I ignored 1.5 days of texts and calls.
I was supposed to bring the kids to him today.
AND an hour before, he texted me not to bring them.
An hour before! He's never done that before, as it's a long drive and we planned our morning around it.
I texted back to basically say OK. Then shut my phone off. It's confusing to the kids, confusing to me.
Knowing him. he'll again he'll ask to have the kids next weekend instead, then again cancel last minute. So I let our PC know what happened.
And I let her know that I would like her to set up a meeting for us ASAP. Or for her to talk to my ex's therapist. I am concerned what else he could do because I'm not returning his calls and texts. While visitation changes are annoying, but he's clearly angry and erratic now, and who knows what's next?
Anyone think there's anything else I should do? His "harassment" takes the form of repeated questions, texts, and emails about things related to the kids, and demands for me to discuss stuff by phone, so it doesn't look like harassment to anyone else. I guess I'll have to email him to remind him we have communication guidelines and he's not supposed to call me, just text for schedule changes.
But...here's the kicker...we know what happens to BPD people when the feel abandoned. I've been taking his calls, and now I've stopped. So his anger/anxiety will ramp up.
He's not due to have the kids for 2 weeks, but I don't want him angry for those 2 weeks.
I'd get a restraining order because of the recent yelling and repeated calls and texts if it was just about me, but it doesn't make sense if I still have to bring the kids to him in 2 weeks, right? His harassment is water toruture: he'll text, call and email 4-5 times in an hour during the day, then repeat it all at night...just enough to unnerve me but not to break a law.
What should I be doing right now?

[GaGrl]

He's done this before.

Sounds like he needs a reset with the PC. If you can prep her ahead of the appointment with the number of emails, texts, and demands for phone conversations, she can help Ex to regulate his behavior or to understand that the consequence of bread by communications guidelines will be MUCH LESS communication due to a restraining order.

[momtara]

The situation worsened tonight. Starting a new thread.

[momtara]

So you may have been following my earlier thread where I tried to respond to my ex's calls and tiptoed around them. Anyway, this weekend things got worse.
Yesterday he kept texting and emailing me. I didn't respond. Today, an hour before I was to make the long drive with the kids to see him, he said not to bring them.
Then his parents called me to ask where they were. Then tonight he called me to talk about various things and I refused. He is supposed to get a nightly call with the kids so I took the calls the first few times. I put him through to them. He asked them about everything we did today, then said 3x that I canceled our visit.
Then he asked the kids if they'd like him to "come get them" tomorrow!
I texted our PC, but now I'm scared she'll tell me to just give in and let him come get them. I don't know what tomorrow will bring, and neither do they.
I get it that every time I give in to him, he gets worse. But I thought he'd calm down. He's upset about an upcoming school meeting and won't calm down.
I don't know what to do now. I'm not going to hand over the kids this weekend but I also am not sure I have enough for a restraining order. He hasn't threatened me, and I haven't actually told him the calls are alarming or annoying. I should have done that a week ago but also didn't want him angered before a kid visit.
I can't just turn the kids over to him tomorrow to mollify him. Wondering what advice you all have? I don't know that sitting with him in the PC's office will help at this point.

[ForeverDad]

I used to record my ex's calls.  Generally no one really cared to listen to them, but I did eventually get to use them in court which criticized her for disparaging Dad in presence of the child.  Magistrate also added that it was hard to listen to her screaming over the phone.

At least I had them in case I could play them for any interested professionals.

Another reason I recorded was for self-protection, she regularly denied her behaviors and often projected her actions onto me.

So my official stance was that I really wasn't recording her, I was recording myself to prove I wasn't misbehaving and if she happened to be recorded too, well, that was her problem.

[momtara]

Thanks ForeverDad. You are always a great source of wisdom. I DID record - but yes, that's only useful if it comes to a court situation. Right now I'm worrying about more immediate things - what do I do about the fact that he will ask to come "take them" tomorrow or next weekend? I can fairly well get out of tomorrow, but he may insist I bring them next weekend because he missed this one (his fault, of course).
And should I do anything with the police, get a restraining order? He called 21 times tonight. He'll say it's because I kept hanging up or wouldn't let him talk to the kids. I did eventually have to hang up.
What scares me right now is that he asked THEM if they want to come see him tomorrow. I hung up because that puts them in a bad situation. The next time he asks them stuff like that, they may be at his house or in his car. What then?
But if I do apply for a restraining order, what is my goal? He scares me but I can't point to any threats.
My other option is to wait and see if the PC has advice.
I can ask her to talk to his therapist.
Last possibility is to clue in his mom, dad (who he lives with) and sibling about what's happening. They'd likely scold him and get him to go back to therapy. But he could feel mortified and I almost am scared that this could affect his behavior down the road. He hates nothing more than to be exposed to his family. But maybe I'm tiptoeing.
I guess my question is - what's my next step? Wait a few days to see what PC thinks? Or email him and text him to say something like, your repeated calls were alarming, I don't tell the kids things about our convos, I think they should stay out of it? And then just stick to my guns about visitation being in 2 weeks? I'll probably be worried again.

[GaGrl]

I have to wonder what is going on (other than the school conference) that has your Ex escalated again.

It seems right that you email him with clarification on the items you mention.

-- Ex cancelled this weekend's visitation, meaning the next visitation will be in two weeks. No rescheduling, make-ups.

--The children are not to be involved in discussions about visitation or other topics that aren't appropriate. If this happens, the phone call will be ended.

--The barrage of phone calls, text messages, emails is excessive. Stop it. The demand for an immediate response is unreasonable. Stop it. (Include the number of messages each day and/or within a set time frame.)

-- A restraining order is an option if communication doesn't calm down.

-- Copy the PC.

-- Take a copy to your local police and ask their advice.

-- Let his parents know what is going on. It sounds like they aren't aware of what he's doing. He may be having memory lapses or confusion.

[momtara]

Terrific advice. I'm trying to formulate a letter and yours is more no-nonsense. Telling his parents is something I'm not sure of, because his biggest trigger has always been if I tell his parents something. Don't want him to feel embarrassed down the road.

[GaGrl]

Is he still living with his parents? If so, a "here's what I've noticed and what concerns me" message can be given to them without all the details.

I do think you j ed to be no-nonsense with your Ex, or he will continue to cross boundaries. State your boundaries again.

[ForeverDad]

What would happen if he challenged your statement that he cancelled the visit and then later demanded the next day start?  What would be the option?  Would he call the police to demand his time?  Of course you could then separately play his cancellation to the police.  (Does ex know you sometimes record interactions?)

Anyway, my experience with the police is that they will plead for some sort of resolution, that's their goal, to resolve the immediate incident since they can't order a solution.  Then they will tell you both to fix it in court.  At least mine did.

[Harri]

This thread reached the max post limit and has been locked and split.  Part 2 is here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=342894.msg13099858#msg13099858

Thank you.