Navigating the Ex situation: How have you done it?

[Dungahass]

I’ve fallen back down to a dark place, I’m exhausted and not sure how to move forward from here. I would REALLY appreciate the wisdom that only the veterans on this board can provide.
My uBPDex and I have been broken up for nearly a year. We got close to rekindling a couple months ago but then I was painted black again and she backed out once more. This is a long-distance relationship. The background is written here:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=342394.0

My original plan going into 2020 was to avoid triggering her, to let the black dissipate, and then slowly bring up the idea of getting back together. I planned to propose to her when I felt the time is right (i.e. when I feel she’s in love me mode). I already bought the ring. Last I saw her was in December, met her whole family for the first time. There was love, sex, and also a lot harsh pushback from her. The last time we had a convo about us, a month ago, she said she really loves me, she's had many thoughts of marriage with me, more than with anyone before, but that we’re incompatible, that I’m out to control her, and that my talk of marriage and moving to be with her was lies said in desperation. That I would just lay more conditions on her the minute she accepts getting back together. And that she’s not completely closed off to the idea of us as a couple, but that she’s currently not interested.

Truth is, I’ve felt in a limbo since coming back home in December. The “plan” I had has taken its toll on me. I’m constantly worried and down, as I wait for her to reach out, to mirror her when she does reach out, to be supportive when she reaches out, give her space, let the black dissipate, etc. She has been more communicative at times, interested in me, complementing of me, only to then disappear again. I have not felt like talking to 99% of my circle, other than a couple friends who have been incredibly supportive, and my therapist. It’s taken over my entire life at this point. I am taking very little pleasure in anything. Lots of tears.

I thought I could handle the limbo and uncertainty about the future, telling myself that she’ll come back. It’s been ridiculously hard to do that. At this point, the thought of staying in wait mode for another few weeks/months is overwhelming. Feels like a game/strategy. So it feels like I have only two options left: Move on completely now, or have a positive, upbeat chat with her about us getting together, centered around the fact that I may actually have a really good job opportunity near where she lives (this is true) and that we can actually do it right this time. I’m not sure if I’m ready to move on yet, yet I’m deathly scared of her reaction if I bring up the relationship again. But as I said, I don’t know how I can stay in this limbo any longer. And whenever I've made some progress in feeling decent, the next message from her has usually acted as a reminder that we're not together and brings me back down.

One note: This new job is still in the interview process, and they will likely fly me over there for the final in-person interview. That would mean my ex and I could see each other then, possibly pretty soon.

Any thoughts, wisdom, advice, ANYTHING really, would be appreciated. I’m back to the lowest I’ve felt since the break-up last year, which is to say, very low. Has any of you been able to navigate the ex-situation, while still remaining hopeful and sane? How did you do it? A virtual hug or two would also be really appreciated.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Nylem]

Hey Dungahass, I read your past material and this. We have a lot in common. You are a bit more advanced than me but I also am focused on the things I did wrong (lack of commitment and reduced my focus on her). I'm only two weeks in but I know, like you I'll still be thinking of her months down the road. I'm waiting for the chance to show her I can correct my mistakes.
I'm sure you have found Rick's site? reignittthefire.net
I found his material insightful and hopefully useful as like you I'm in the process of preparing for my chance to recover our relationship. She started talking moving in and I backed off. After three years of dating I can't blame her for running but now I see my mistakes and want to commit.
Words of advice I can think of. You thinking of walking away. It sounds easier than it is. If you have hung on this long I'd hang on a bit longer. Rick talks of simply not letting bpd people affext your emotions. I think that's key but also key is seeing what is a tantrum and what is a real problem. That's where I failed. I thought she was just having another tantrum but she was really hurting. I should have comforted her instead of rejecting her behavior.
Hope you have a close friend to bounce things off. That helps me. I've got great friends. One is with me now who has gone through self development last two years and is incredible at seeing where I was wrong and where I was right. It helps to talk.
My biggest fear is that mine has just thrown three years of deep love in the bin and she seems to be able to just never look back. Her past relationship stories sound like she can. It hurts.

[Dungahass]

Thanks for your reply, Nylem. I'm feeling a little better today, after a really cool encounter yesterday with two strangers (I talk about it below).

I try to avoid spending too much time reading relationship coaching websites. Last year, after my ex and I broke up, I was obsessively reading them, watching "get your ex back" videos on YT and my focus remained 100% on my ex rather than on myself. Some of these sites do give great advice that are applicable to most relationships (like building attraction, trust, etc), but the truth is they also apply cookie-cutter solutions to situations that have their own complex, unique details. They may predict a relationship is doomed if x or y factor is present, while the opposite could be true for your specific case. Or they may say there is a chance of recovery when your case actually has no hope. So I try to avoid them mostly, for my own sanity. Thanks for the link though, I went through a few of the articles there.

I've also begun to realize that yes, I've made mistakes in the past, but that those mistakes don't define me, nor do they take away from the good that I present, as a package. And that mistakes made should not be a reason to continue self-flagellation, like I've been doing. And just as importantly, those mistakes were not made in a complete vacuum. I take responsibility for my actions, but what did my ex do to add to the bad dynamic? Is she owning up to her mistakes? Did those mistakes trigger you in some way? If you had been "perfect", would the relationship have been problem-free? I'm trying my hardest to understand her BPD and act accordingly, but is she taking the same hard long look at my own flaws and accepting them with love and empathy? Of course not, as apparently I'm the source of almost all of our issues. "Yeah maybe I could have handled this or that better, but in the end, you did x which is the real problem", are words I have heard countless times from her. I know it's all part of the BPD, but doesn't mean I can't forgive myself.

If you have hung on this long I'd hang on a bit longer.

Wow, thank you for your words of encouragement! I don't think I will forget her, or truly give up hope. I'd be lying to myself if I did. I think the solution lies somewhere in the middle. For me, what's worked in the past was to have a mindset that says "dude, you've let yourself fall down to an awful place mentally. Its time you stop doing anything to get her back right now, and recenter yourself just to feel normal again. Put the idea of the relationship aside for now, focus on feeling better, and if she comes back, she comes back. It may take weeks, or months, or never, but you still need get yourself out of this rut". When I developed this mentality last year, is when she came running back. She might not this time around, but its the best chance at survival, for myself, and for the relationship.

I have a couple of really supportive friends I can talk to about this, as well as my therapist. But yesterday, I had the most incredible encounter with an elderly couple sitting next to me at a breakfast restaurant. They chatted me up, and after a couple questions, they found out I have an ex that I'm trying to get back, and they could see that I'm depressed over it. The 92 year old man, so well-travelled, a famous sculptor and business man, with seven kids, and two marriages under his belt, said, "You love this girl, you're willing to move there, take care of her 4 year-old daughter who adores you, and who you adore. Your ex loves you and yet SHE doesn't want to be with YOU? So be it. She obviously has baggage, but you were not the one who placed that baggage there in her past. Pick yourself up. Do your thing. Date other women. Distance yourself from her. She will come running. You're young, good looking, kind, well-spoken, loving, presentable and with a great job. You're a KING. Say that to the mirror each day. Have self-worth. You're 10 feet tall, stand even taller! It's not easy, but have self-worth! Stand tall!". He had no idea how much I needed to hear that, after having felt like complete s*** over what I wish I should have done/not done with my ex. Coming from a stranger, one who has lived all of life, it meant everything to me in that moment. It was like a push that I need to start treating myself better. I, and you, don't deserve to feel like this all the time.

My biggest fear is that mine has just thrown three years of deep love in the bin and she seems to be able to just never look back. Her past relationship stories sound like she can. It hurts.

Yeah I've felt the exact same way. My ex is of the type who can and has been able to rationalize things in a way that let's her detach and move on completely. And let me tell you, since mine is a long-distance relationship, it makes that even more possible. It's really hard, but I'm trying to not focus too much on that. For a few reasons:
1) If that's what she is doing, then I can't stop it anyway. And forcefully trying to insert/keep myself in her mind usually gives the opposite results of what I want
2) Sometimes, absence makes the heart grow fonder.
3) What's likely to happen is, she can try to forget about me, but I will always be there, in the back of her mind. There will always be a reminder of me. Her daughter will speak my name. A friend or family member will ask about me. The date she will go on will remind her that our bond is rare, that her daughter has loved no one like she loves me. The sex she'll have with another will not compare to sex with me. I know that stuff sounds conceited, but its all based on knowing her and our past experiences. So, even if we don't end up together, she will never forget me. I think you need to trust that in your case as well. Rationally, you can say that sure, there is a non-zero chance she'll completely forget about you, but that most likely, she will not. There is comfort in that.

Feel free to reply more here, and/or to your own thread. Its brother/sister in arms type of situation, and I find it very helpful. Cheers!

[jaded7]

Wow. I'm in the midst of a 3-6 week relationship blowup and reading all of your past thread and now this I can really empathize and share you're exact feelings.

Especially of...wait a minute, I didn't do anything wrong here, I'm a really good guy and it's really her behavior that has caused all these problems, but yet I still feel fear, obligation and guilt (I just posted on this).

I've also begun to realize that yes, I've made mistakes in the past, but that those mistakes don't define me, nor do they take away from the good that I present, as a package. And that mistakes made should not be a reason to continue self-flagellation, like I've been doing. And just as importantly, those mistakes were not made in a complete vacuum. I take responsibility for my actions, but what did my ex do to add to the bad dynamic? Is she owning up to her mistakes? Did those mistakes trigger you in some way? If you had been "perfect", would the relationship have been problem-free?

Right, and I'm thinking that too. I own up to my real mistakes, always do. Not afraid of doing it, I'm not perfect. But have I ever yelled at her, called her names, demeaned her and her interests and work. Have I ever pointed my finger in her face and told her she made me yell at her? Of course not. Has she ever owned up to anything she's done (read my thread Or leave...don't know what to do, 2 parts if you're interested in the craziness)? No, of course not. Always my fault, always I don't measure up, always I'm not...

And yet, I love her like you do yours. And I'm torn to shreds right now not knowing where we're at and I might lose her forever. It occupies my mind all day, every day.

[Dungahass]

So glad to have found this place and to know I'm not alone. Thanks so much for reading and responding!

I'm also only now really beginning to understand F.O.G.

Has she ever owned up to anything she's done (read my thread Or leave...don't know what to do, 2 parts if you're interested in the craziness)? No, of course not. Always my fault, always I don't measure up, always I'm not...

One thing that jumped at me from this passage is about how she (your ex, and mine as well) rarely owns up to anything. I'm not sure about your ex, but I know that as much as mine doesn't vocalize taking responsibility for her own damaging actions, in her mind, she often ends up seeing the damage she's done after all is said and done. Not just in our relationship, but also from her past ones. She has told me as much. "I need therapy to talk about my destructive relationship behaviors" is something I have heard more than once from her. So she may not show it, but I know she will think about things later, and realize that she's eff'ed up so many things, and will feel some guilt over it which will usually just make her feel worse. Which I think is part of the BPD cycle that I've read quite often. I'm saying this because I think it's something we need to incorporate into our mindsets when dealing with the F.O.G.

That feeling of being unable to stop thinking about her (i.e. ruminating) is one I know far too well, unfortunately. I haven't figured out how to deal with it yet fully, but some things do help. In my case, going to the gym, working on finding a cool new job, and spending time with close and supportive friends helps, even if it only gives my brain the tiniest amount of reprieve. On the other hand, there are lots of things I do that do the exact opposite of helping me. Talking about it over and over with friends all the time, not being active, withdrawing from my circle, and even furiously reading this board often just keeps my mind on her and the tough situation I'm in.

Are there things you can think of that can get your mind off of her, even if its for 30 mins? One step at a time. Similarly, are there things that you think you are doing that are causing you more damage?

Keep posting if it helps you, we're in this boat together. We'll all help each other stay aflot!

[jaded7]

Dunghass...read through my threads Or...leave don't know what to do, and I posted today on FOG.

Mine had never said anything like she recognizes she screwed up, but has hinted that she's hard to deal with, things like "putting. up with me".

[jaded7]

. I think that's key but also key is seeing what is a tantrum and what is a real problem. That's where I failed. I thought she was just having another tantrum but she was really hurting. I should have comforted her instead of rejecting her behavior.

This is where I struggle. Is it a failure to take insults and yelling and name calling personally? In every other area of life, in every other relationship, you would say this is absolutely horrendous and childish behavior. But when they do it we have to be understanding. I can get that is how you have to deal with it, but when you don't know anything about bpd how can expect yourself to  think of verbal abuse and emotional abuse as par for the course and getting upset by it a failure? It's a normal reaction.

And this is where me, Dunghass and others go into self-hatred and self-blame, which makes us feel even worse that we let them down.

[Dungahass]

Dunghass...read through my threads Or...leave don't know what to do, and I posted today on FOG.

Mine had never said anything like she recognizes she screwed up, but has hinted that she's hard to deal with, things like "putting. up with me".

Hard to tell exactly how much insight your ex has into her own behaviour. By her saying "putting up with me", she might know a bit more about her own behaviours than she lets on. But in the end, these small admissions, like mine does at times, are not substitutes for actual, situational acknowledgements and apologies. My T tells me to not expect many apologies from my ex. I find that's a very sad, but practical piece of advice.

I went through your "Or...leave don't know what to do" thread. I can see why you'd mention F.O.G. So much of it in your situation with your ex!

[Dungahass]

This is where I struggle. Is it a failure to take insults and yelling and name calling personally? In every other area of life, in every other relationship, you would say this is absolutely horrendous and childish behavior. But when they do it we have to be understanding. I can get that is how you have to deal with it, but when you don't know anything about bpd how can expect yourself to  think of verbal abuse and emotional abuse as par for the course and getting upset by it a failure? It's a normal reaction.

And this is where me, Dunghass and others go into self-hatred and self-blame, which makes us feel even worse that we let them down.

Bingo. "Normally", our own reactions to being treated unfairly, or having our feelings hurt, would get at least some sympathy with someone who is a bit more healthy. But in these BPD relationships, it's like we have to redefine what is normal and what is not. And we have to develop new skills to be able to handle our partners. This is a choice we make of course, because we wish to remain with them. But its easy to look back at our own actions and reactions and blame ourselves for not knowing about BPD...which 99% of people, including the person WITH BPD, don't know about. I know it has been easy for me to look back with guilt, and 20/20 glasses. Everyone around me, including my T, tells me to go easy on myself, and to not blame myself for it. It is NOT unreasonable to express your hurt feelings. It is NOT unreasonable to set your boundaries, or to find a behaviour unacceptable. There is surely a way to want to love our partners, going forward with our new tools, but without focusing too much on how we didn't handle things well in the past.

[jaded7]

Yep. And then there's the next level question, do we want to have to deal with it on a regular basis?

I have always felt 'sorry' for her, wanted to take care of her because she inspires that in me and I know she's been through some tough stuff- single mom, struggling to make ends meet from working at home, raising a son mostly by herself- and I want to be there for her. But I fail again and again, no matter how much I try.

If I try to take care of myself after a verbally abusive 3 hour episode by waiting one day to respond to a text from her, she sends an email tearing me apart for being cruel and punishing and saying I've ruined her trust. But she goes days without responding to me and I've told her that makes me feel bad. She told me if I feel triggered when she's not responding to tell her- which is what I've done a couple of times- and she still gets mad, but when she's feeling triggered by me gathering myself for one day she doesn't do that and instead sends a vicious email.

It's really exhausting. I do still want to take care of her, now that I'm becoming more clear on what bpd is and why she acts the way she does, realizing it comes from fear and I guess shame, I want to be there for her. I just want to give her a big hug and hold her.

[Dungahass]

I have always felt 'sorry' for her, wanted to take care of her because she inspires that in me and I know she's been through some tough stuff- single mom, struggling to make ends meet from working at home, raising a son mostly by herself- and I want to be there for her. But I fail again and again, no matter how much I try.

Our situations really are quite similar. My ex is a single mom, has raised her daughter by herself from almost day 1, had it hard to make ends meet in the past. She also had two past relationships turn out very badly. One, obviously being the father of her child, who walked out on her from the beginning. And the other one being a relationship with whom she thought was the love of her life and who left her without warning ten years ago. She still carries scars from the latter. I feel all that that has just triggered/fueled her BPD even more, and I just want to be there for her, love her and hold her, as you said. I want her to know I won't be another person to abandon her. I've told her that about a thousand times since learning about BPD. I think that last point started actually driving home eventually.

Yep. And then there's the next level question, do we want to have to deal with it on a regular basis?

We of course don't want to deal with that. My T, who has warned me about pursuing this woman, thinks that it can get better with time. Meaning, I would have to develop new skills (he calls it changing myself. I tend to agree) to cope with her. He also thinks if we got married and had children, in addition to my new skills, the BPD cycles could become less frequent and with lower amplitudes of destruction. But still, he warns me that it could also get messy in ways I haven't even seen or imagined yet, and thinks I shouldn't get into it but still supports me because its what I want.

If I try to take care of myself after a verbally abusive 3 hour episode by waiting one day to respond to a text from her, she sends an email tearing me apart for being cruel and punishing and saying I've ruined her trust. But she goes days without responding to me and I've told her that makes me feel bad. She told me if I feel triggered when she's not responding to tell her- which is what I've done a couple of times- and she still gets mad, but when she's feeling triggered by me gathering myself for one day she doesn't do that and instead sends a vicious email.

That's the nature of the double standards we face. Almost all of the things I've been accused of, she's done the exact same things but worse. Every single nasty characterization she has made of me. Since I've read a lot about skills needed to deal with a pwBDP, I will ask you this: When you've needed that space after being verbally abused, have you usually let her know that you need some breathing room, but that you'll be back (as to not trigger abandonment issues)? How does she react to that?

It's really exhausting. I do still want to take care of her, now that I'm becoming more clear on what bpd is and why she acts the way she does, realizing it comes from fear and I guess shame, I want to be there for her. I just want to give her a big hug and hold her.

Yup, same here. But sometimes, when I think of myself holding her to comfort her, I can actually picture her physically pulling herself from me in disgust and lashing out at me. What a weird, weird thought and situation to be in.

[jaded7]

I will ask you this: When you've needed that space after being verbally abused, have you usually let her know that you need some breathing room, but that you'll be back (as to not trigger abandonment issues)? How does she react to that?


I did that once, after her yelling at me until 4 in the morning (the initial event was my sheets touching the floor after I cleaned them and I was trying to get them on the bed before she got out of the bathroom, but she was already mad at me for showing up unannounced for the first and only time at an event at my business after I had already told her I'd call her when I was done having dinner with my clients across the street but she ignored that and just showed up anyway and then agreed to come to dinner with us- when we left she attacked me for 'taking' her to the place she hates and called my friend a "pompous ass"...that's BEFORE we got to my place. It all spiraled from there into hours of attacks and me defending and trying to explain how crazy it all was). She texted me two days later and one day later I texted her

"I'm not ready to talk with you yet. I'll get in touch with you later this week. Please respect my request"

Within 3 seconds she texted back an attack that the night was my fault, if I had only ________then it wouldn't have happened. Later that week, she texted me again, again violating the boundary.

[2020]

Hello Dungahass,

Sorry to hear you are sufferring at the moment. I surely can relate to that! I have been in some pretty dark places myself over situations with my partner. It is not easy!

I was just reading through your link and read the part "Latest in-person encounter – we met at last!" It struck me that on the seventh day, it all went to  . Not sure whether this will help, but I would imagine my partner would react badly the day before if I was to leave. These are highly sensitive people. One of the big fears they have is abandonment. The day before you leaving may have set that off. What do you think? Could that have triggered something?

I have been to hell and back with the black and white thinking; with the splitting. A few days ago we went away for a couple of nights to get away from things triggering her at home. It was a really nice two days, all things considering. Only one incident when she had been drinking. The real problem however happened when we returned home and her issues she has with my kids arose again. I guess in her mind we went from intimacy and spending time with each other, alone, to me interacting with my son. That was the straw which broke the camel's back!

Not sure where this leaves you, or I, or anyone else for that matter. I think what is kind of working for me is not letting my partner have as much power over me as I used to. The way I look at it, she is away today and maybe for some time. She is not here smashing things up, biting me, attracting police attention, ending up in hospital. Her son came to her rescue. It is his turn to be painted white. I will be black until his girlfriend puts her foot in it. Then she will come back here and tell me all about it, blaming me in the process. So continues the merry-go-round... or sad-go-round. Just try to remain sane! Read as much as you can about this. It is easy to fall into their drama. We need to be stable. I am trying to do things differently lately. Progress is slow with this. Play it cool  .

[once removed]

I have not felt like talking to 99% of my circle, other than a couple friends who have been incredibly supportive, and my therapist. It’s taken over my entire life at this point. I am taking very little pleasure in anything. Lots of tears.

these things are very important.

being in a relationship with someone with bpd traits is very taxing, and requires a great deal of strength. if you were to get back together tomorrow, and youre confused, or depressed, or feeling isolated, or a combination of any of those things, your heart wont be in it, she will sense that, and things will blow up quickly.

i know what a toll this is all taking on you, and the anxiety youre experiencing. if this is overwhelming now, the prospect of getting back together will like be even more overwhelming.

we talked, in your other thread, about rebuilding trust.

i would look at it in another way.

i would consider the old relationship over and dead. i would grieve and mourn it.

i would put my eggs in the basket of getting back to the cool, confident, upbeat guy she fell for in the first place. get my life back on track. get strong.

i would then look at any potential relationship with her as a very new relationship, with a very different game plan. id think hard about what that looks like, and what it entails, what it will take, and id consider very hard whether im up for it.

what do you think?

[jaded7]

these things are very important.

being in a relationship with someone with bpd traits is very taxing, and requires a great deal of strength. if you were to get back together tomorrow, and youre confused, or depressed, or feeling isolated, or a combination of any of those things, your heart wont be in it, she will sense that, and things will blow up quickly.

i know what a toll this is all taking on you, and the anxiety youre experiencing. if this is overwhelming now, the prospect of getting back together will like be even more overwhelming.

we talked, in your other thread, about rebuilding trust.

i would look at it in another way.

i would consider the old relationship over and dead. i would grieve and mourn it.

i would put my eggs in the basket of getting back to the cool, confident, upbeat guy she fell for in the first place. get my life back on track. get strong.

i would then look at any potential relationship with her as a very new relationship, with a very different game plan. id think hard about what that looks like, and what it entails, what it will take, and id consider very hard whether im up for it.

what do you think?

I'm taking this advice Once Removed, even though it was meant for another poster. He and I are in the same boat, and this is something I've been working toward and thinking about, exactly. THAT relationship had to end, it was killing me, long before the most recent events.

[jaded7]

But sometimes, when I think of myself holding her to comfort her, I can actually picture her physically pulling herself from me in disgust and lashing out at me. What a weird, weird thought and situation to be in.

I have the same thought. Snapping in anger and attacking me. Even in the best of times she would get annoyed at me if our shoulders bump as we are walking near each other, snap at me if I rub her shoulders, recoil if I place my hand on the back of her neck to gently kiss her, and much more. Physical touch seems very problematic for her.

[Dungahass]

these things are very important.

being in a relationship with someone with bpd traits is very taxing, and requires a great deal of strength. if you were to get back together tomorrow, and youre confused, or depressed, or feeling isolated, or a combination of any of those things, your heart wont be in it, she will sense that, and things will blow up quickly.

i know what a toll this is all taking on you, and the anxiety youre experiencing. if this is overwhelming now, the prospect of getting back together will like be even more overwhelming.

we talked, in your other thread, about rebuilding trust.

i would look at it in another way.

i would consider the old relationship over and dead. i would grieve and mourn it.

i would put my eggs in the basket of getting back to the cool, confident, upbeat guy she fell for in the first place. get my life back on track. get strong.

i would then look at any potential relationship with her as a very new relationship, with a very different game plan. id think hard about what that looks like, and what it entails, what it will take, and id consider very hard whether im up for it.

what do you think?

I'm gonna respond about the topic of trust in the other thread.

This makes sense, probably more than I have realized so far. Different game plan, what I would need to do, and even asking myself if I'm up for it. I think that a new game plan probably means forgetting about most of my past "strategies", whether they worked or not. I recently started accepting the fact that just because something went a certain way in the past, doesn't mean it will go that way again (e.g. thinking that just because last year she came towards me after a month of N.C., it will likely happen again now). I'll be honest, the thought of starting from scratch feels really overwhelming and I'm not even sure how much I have it in me right now. I think the best thing, in the immediate future, is to detach a bit, which I actually think is absolutely necessary for me "getting back to the cool, confident, upbeat guy she fell for in the first place. get my life back on track. get strong". I can't see that going through anything other than some level of detachment and re-focusing on myself for a while. Thank you.

I've done that a bit more over the last 3 days. I have to say, that conversation with the elderly man I mentioned in my earlier post really helped. It allowed me to regain some of my old dignity and self-worth. I've not only been less sad but I also have a slightly more balanced view of how things went down with my ex (i.e. I'm not constantly feeling regret and sorrow over the past things she unfairly blamed me for). Reminds me of how important self-affirmations are.

jaded7, sounds like you're an affectionate guy, like I am, so I know that for us, feeling that physical rejection when we're trying to be loving is hard to handle. In my case, my ex tends to be an affectionate person, so the rejection is not constant. But that makes me wonder if that's worse, because of the unpredictability of it all.

[Dungahass]

I was just reading through your link and read the part "Latest in-person encounter – we met at last!" It struck me that on the seventh day, it all went to  . Not sure whether this will help, but I would imagine my partner would react badly the day before if I was to leave. These are highly sensitive people. One of the big fears they have is abandonment. The day before you leaving may have set that off. What do you think? Could that have triggered something?

That's actually a really great question and I had to put a lot of thought into it. I mean, who knows, there might be some truth to what you're saying. Maybe, behind the scenes, some of that was happening and it certainly does match BPD. I can't know for sure what was in her mind, so I should mostly take her at her own word in that she said I "ruined things" with a comment I made which I know I shouldn't have (I basically said if we were to get back together I'd have a problem with a dude she knows coming to her place and taking overly warm and chummy pictures together like they had recently). She said that comment really triggered her, and I think it did. But still, after I made it, she was still mostly lovey dovey with me right before bed, and its only in the morning of that she (I) turned black. So either she slept on it and felt worse about my comment in the morning, or something else was at play to cause THAT massive of a shift in her attitude towards me, literally overnight. And maybe that was related to your idea about my leaving that morning. Its possible, but I don't think I will ever know for sure what cause the 180.

ust try to remain sane! Read as much as you can about this. It is easy to fall into their drama. We need to be stable. I am trying to do things differently lately. Progress is slow with this. Play it cool  Being cool

Wise words, thanks for a lot for replying. Again, your story about her getting triggered/feeling abandoned from you paying attention to your kids got me thinking. I once had the same thing happen, but while playing with HER child. One night she was in distress, crying on the couch, but I didn't realize because she was quiet and I had my back turned to her while playing with her 3 year old. I think she was hoping I'd see it, and was probably crying out for help. She later made a very jealous sounding comment that I was more interested in playing with her daughter (that's right...her daughter) than I was in helping her. Or maybe she did it on purpose to have another reason why I'm a horrible boyfriend. Who knows.

[2020]

Yes, it is hard to know for sure what sets them off. And it is impossible to never slip up and make mistakes. I have read that a person with BPD is like an emotional burns victim. One tiny touch the wrong way can have them screaming in torment.

Last night for me I had positive email interactions with my partner who for now has run away to her son's house. She actually said sorry for calling me an old  the day before! This is a massive achievement for her! Then today I emailed her and she emailed back. I made a joke about moving to Bosnia as it may be a little cheaper than Paris where she'd like to be, and I got a massive dysregulation in my inbox! She now wants half the online business we started together last year, is accusing me of laughing at her with my kids, and apparently I am in bed today with my son's mother who dumped me in a suspected BPD rage in 2004! My response has been: "I don't like it when we speak to each other like this. I am going to refrain from emailing you
at this point. I'll check again in a couple of hours and see if we can get along." I will check my email in two hours but I doubt it will have changed.

It's a very odd condition. It can be hell for us but they must really suffer to resort to the behaviour they do. I think the point of this all, this forum, is about changing ourselves. I have had no success in reasoning with my partner at all. All I can do is not let her get to me the way she has in the past. I have been very  up by her actions. She is a major worry. I am thinking this will never be the relationship I wanted it to be. She will always disappear, end up in hospital, in trouble with the police, drunken accidents, smash things up. That is just the way she is. All I can do is not be around her when she is like this, and not let her think that behaving in such a way will get my attention.

We need to set boundaries. Today I am glad she is not here in the room with me. Maybe try and enjoy the drama free solitude yourself! It isn't easy though, is it?

[jaded7]

I agree. It's hard to understand how they must feel inside in order to let out the torrent of abuse and anger and circular argument, shifting goalposts, diversions in order to 'win' the argument. It makes me feel sorry for her, but then I don't know how to make her feel better with the 'stories' she tells me about how bad I am!

Dunghass...how are you doing? Haven't heard from you in a while.

[Dungahass]

Hey jaded7,

Thanks for checking in. Last few days have been hard and I've withdrawn. Whatever positive momentum I had started gaining have dissipated and I'm back down. We haven't spoken in over a week, which hurts. Its the longest time without contact since November. I know she was on holiday this week, so my mind has been a bit all over the place, with worrisome thoughts, wondering if she's thinking about me, if she's closed the book, if I should message her, etc. And I've probably fed the anxiety flame by checking out her social media, constantly checking my phone, etc. Basically all things I shouldn't be doing, because they're futile and just make me feel worse.

Her daughter's birthday is coming up in a couple weeks, and I had wanted to go visit them. Now that we're here, I don't even know what that would accomplish, if she'd be open to it, or even how I would bring it up. I do miss her daughter tremendously, just as much as I miss her, sometimes more.

And of course, today's Valentine's day, and I know my mind will be on my phone, just looking for a notification which I know 99.99% certainly will not come. Yet, I think about it. I don't think I will message her, but even that confuses me, because in my current state, I wonder if not reaching out to her sends a message that I'm done. I'm so lost. Our last contact was when I messaged her my sympathies a week ago, so you could say its best I leave the ball in her court. You could say that...

How are you holding up, bud?

[jaded7]

All in the same place with everything you say, but I'm at over 3 weeks now. I was in the exact same ruminating place as you two weeks ago, it was nearly killing me. I could hardly function.

I have gone over and over and over in my head what you are thinking. I concluded the following:

I deserve to be treated with respect, with loving communication and language. I deserve to have support from the person I love rather than criticism and attacks. I deserve to have my business and my dreams supported rather than put down and demeaned. I deserve actual communication from my partner rather than evasive and bread crumbing texts, gaslighting about being busy and flat out lies. I deserve a minimum of attention from the person I love and a minimum of nurturing. I deserve a person who will listen to me and my concerns without turning around and attacking me with them. I deserve someone who tells me I'm great and the world needs me. I deserve someone who will be interested in my life and supports my hobbies and interests. I deserve someone I can share my fears with rather than someone who uses them to mistreat me. I deserve someone who shows gratitude when I do something for her, someone who wants to include me in her life. I deserve someone who is proud of me. I deserve someone who will make her needs known rather than setting up 'tests' and 'traps' in order to attack me later. I deserve someone who can control their anger and emotions rather than launching in to 5-year-old style attacks on me, my character, my friends, my business, my family. I deserve someone who will respect my boundaries and be honest with me. I deserve reciprocal vulnerability. I deserve someone who will hold my fears and worries in heart with grace rather than minimizing and criticism. I deserve someone who will understand I was sexually abused as a boy and hold that gently rather than sexually manipulating me.

Dungahass, this is not me being self-centered or greedy. These are minimum expectations in a loving bond. I've been taught that these are too much to ask, and I've spent the last several weeks convincing myself that they are not. I have given all of these and more to her, with very little in return.

I'm a good person. I believe deep inside she is too. I fell in love with that good person inside of her, but there was a lot of a mask that fell away over time as the criticism and anger and manipulations and lecturing and put downs become more frequent. It was very much about control- of me. That control is based on her own fear and dysfunction, not mine. I can't love her out of that. I tried, really really hard and in the process lost myself, my dignity and my self-respect in the hope that the person I fell in love with- who was SO in love with me, with 'us' who communicated frequently and with lots of emotie hearts and "l love you"s and "miss you's" and willingness to make time for me, for us- would return.

So, on this Valentine's Day I"m loving myself. The door is open for her- she has a phone and email, if she has wanted to she could have sent an email or text to get together or talk. She hasn't. If she wanted to she could have immediately apologized for the verbal abuse and name calling and put downs that were so hurtful. She didn't. She could have heard me when I told her in our last conversation that it was so hurtful that she stopped responding or communicating and simply left town over Christmas after telling me she was going to have me up to her Mom and Dads house, leaving me alone in my condo crying. She didn't, and turned it around on me.

I'm worthy of love and respect. That's what I'm telling myself today. I recognize that she has serious issues, very likely a mix of bpd and npd. I also recognize that I've never been able to get through to her when I ask her about her behaviors or even suggest that something was hurtful to me- it's always met with a reversal and an attack. It has hurt my spirit deeply and made me depressed and return to my PTSD from my childhood sexual abuse.

[jaded7]

To continue.

All this has not been good for me. I have suffered so many nights I can't even count them. All I ask is she acknowledge things, god forbid even apologize for some things.

Yes, as I've learned about bpd and npd I've come to some place of empathy for her knowing that much of this behavior is rooted in shame and fear. I also have fears and shame that we're greatly triggered by my treatment from her. I have felt such guilt and  self-hatred when I realized that, but thanks to the good people on the board I've come to place where I accept I could not know what was going on, that it is INDEED extremely confusing and hurtful. I am honoring that in myself. I KNOW that I didn't ever do anything to intentionally hurt her or disrespect her. I would never do that, and I told her that many, many times. But that didn't matter. I was expected to mind read, which is unfair, even it's it's unintentional. I know that I loved her as much as a human could love someone. I know that I would have jumped out of bed for her if she called at 2:00am and needed help, or to have her hand held, or just needed to talk. I told her that repeatedly. I know that I would do anything for her, always held her needs in the forefront of my mind, often to the detriment of my own needs.

I do have empathy for her, and I do still love her. But I need to stop my suffering and love myself. If she were to contact me and acknowledge even some of these things, I would have hope and of course would listen to her. Because I do love her.

[once removed]

Dungahass,

it sounds like you are grieving and detaching.

it is an anxiety inducing place to be when the other part of you has hope. you dont want to do the wrong thing, send the wrong message. anxiety tells us we need to act.

as much as it hurts, lean into these feelings.

bear in mind, the two of you have been broken up for a year. hope has you caught in the day to day, interaction by interaction, what to do next sort of mindset. she is likely not operating in that place.

and that doesnt have to be the end of the world, or the end of your efforts.

leaning into the feelings and going through them will ultimately reduce your anxiety around all of this, over time. youll grow more confident in what to do and what not to do, and see the bigger picture.

[Dungahass]

Wise words, once removed. Can you expand a bit on "leaning into the feelings?". I'm definitely feeling the brunt of them, whether I want to or not. Leaning into the anxiety could mean to act on it (i.e. messaging her), or are you saying to accept the feeling with mindfulness, let myself feel it, but to NOT act on it?

It just feels like I'm in wait mode, and even if I do just try to live my life, the part of me that wants her thinks that not reaching out sends a message that I'm done. Valentine's day came and went, no message. My worrisome thoughts make me ask myself, if I want to marry this girl at some point, shouldn't I take opportunities like that to let her know I'm thinking about her? What does that say about me if I don't?

jaded7, I'm glad you seem to be in a better place, one with some self-love. I was there a few days ago, but I lost it. And I didn't for one second read your words as something selfish. It's actually quite healthy.

[jaded7]

It just feels like I'm in wait mode, and even if I do just try to live my life, the part of me that wants her thinks that not reaching out sends a message that I'm done. Valentine's day came and went, no message. My worrisome thoughts make me ask myself, if I want to marry this girl at some point, shouldn't I take opportunities like that to let her know I'm thinking about her? What does that say about me if I don't?

I know these feelings well Dungahass. And like once removed has said, I'm just learning to sit with them. It does feel like we are sabotaging any chance there might be, doesn't it. But then I think of the days and weeks I suffered over the last year with the withdrawing, confusing communications, leaving me out of things, yelling and criticizing, etc.  and I think, well that hurt at lot too.

[Dungahass]

It really does make us wonder if we're sabotaging things. I know I had the same self-loving words of affirmation as you have, a few days ago. That included some anger and resentment towards my ex, with some "you know what? screw you, I don't deserve this sh*t". I haven't yet found a way to have the self-love and acceptance, without the anger and resentment. I wonder sometimes if those negative feelings are helpful in the long run. Short-term, they're VERY helpful, in that they make me switch away from the depression a bit. But they dissipate quickly, and I fall back down. And what I really don't want is for resentment to cloud my next interactions with her. That's not a good way to rebuild trust, or anything, with someone. It's like, should you resent a bear for trying to maul you? Its in their nature, it might upset/hurt you, but its in them, so if you don't like a bear attack, just avoid one. Same with BPD, I don't have to like the things she has done/said to me, but if *I* decide to stay, then I can't be resentful forever.

Do you have any of those negative resentment feelings towards her today? I don't just mean sadness and hurt.

[jaded7]

It really does make us wonder if we're sabotaging things. I know I had the same self-loving words of affirmation as you have, a few days ago. That included some anger and resentment towards my ex, with some "you know what? screw you, I don't deserve this sh*t". I haven't yet found a way to have the self-love and acceptance, without the anger and resentment. I wonder sometimes if those negative feelings are helpful in the long run. Short-term, they're VERY helpful, in that they make me switch away from the depression a bit. But they dissipate quickly, and I fall back down. And what I really don't want is for resentment to cloud my next interactions with her. That's not a good way to rebuild trust, or anything, with someone. It's like, should you resent a bear for trying to maul you? Its in their nature, it might upset/hurt you, but its in them, so if you don't like a bear attack, just avoid one. Same with BPD, I don't have to like the things she has done/said to me, but if *I* decide to stay, then I can't be resentful forever.

Do you have any of those negative resentment feelings towards her today? I don't just mean sadness and hurt.

Oh, I do have those feelings today. I have them most everyday. Mostly over the name calling and the weird manipulations and the evasive communication or complete stopping of communication when she was trying to avoid me or 'mold' my behavior.

I think of her looking at her phone, seeing my text seeing if I could take her to lunch or something, then her putting the phone back down and simply ignoring it for a day or two as I sat there wondering what the hell is going on...and I get angry. I think of her looking at the phone when I call and simply letting it ring knowing how it makes me feel.

And yet, Dungahass...at this very moment I would love nothing more than to simply hold her close and hug her. It's so difficult and confusing.

[once removed]

My worrisome thoughts make me ask myself, if I want to marry this girl at some point, shouldn't I take opportunities like that to let her know I'm thinking about her? What does that say about me if I don't?

it says youre a man comfortable in his skin. thats the most attractive thing of all.

if she just lost her dad, shes not likely to be in the mood for a valentines message.

similarly, pouring your heart out in a valentines message isnt whats going to save this, if its to be saved.

i made a grand romantic gesture toward an ex once on valentines. it was actually advised to me. it just made her uncomfortable. she didnt know what to do with it. and i felt awful for sticking my neck out there.

Can you expand a bit on "leaning into the feelings?". I'm definitely feeling the brunt of them, whether I want to or not. Leaning into the anxiety could mean to act on it (i.e. messaging her), or are you saying to accept the feeling with mindfulness, let myself feel it, but to NOT act on it?

i mean the bolded part. i also mean trust in the process. try to have faith that these uncomfortable feelings are the difficult but necessary work of getting to that better (and more attractive) place.

[Dungahass]

Thank you again, once removed. The reasons you give for not contacting her are the same ones that have stopped me from doing it. 95% of me knows its ill-advised, and the challenge is fighting that remaining 5%. That last bit contains a lot of darkness. I'll continue to work on it.

I've gotten burned before by declarations of love, so any message would have been short and sweet. I think your point still stands though.

And I think you got this part, but just to be sure we're on the same page, her dad died last year, not this year. She grieved and mourned it mostly already.

"Trust in the process" are words I've heard before but keep forgetting. Thanks for the reminder.