Marsha Linehan on BPD and a failure to assert ones' self

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I just finished Marsha Linehan's memoir "Building a Life Experiencing as Worth Living. Marsha developed DBT and is herself BPD.

Lots of notes   I'm explaining something to myself here so this is a bit long.

I understand now why BPD traits can present in such different ways (raging, say, versus more quiet BPD traits like the ones that SD23 has).

Raging might have become (dysfunctionally) effective for one child in some families. Another child may have learned different dysfunctional behaviors. Like cutting. Or somatic complaints. Or suicidal ideation. Or drugs, lying, running away, etc.

Intense, extreme emotions occur in someone with BPD. There is poor language expression/skills to describe these feelings, or understand them, or name them, or communicate them, so then these other behaviors are tried out as a way to express intense emotions. Some behaviors seem to discharge the pain or at the very least get loved ones to pay attention to the emotions, the pain. There may not be a lot of thought that goes along with these behaviors.

For SD23, I think maybe she learned disassociating. She stuffed feelings so much that when a particularly challenging crisis happened (her parents divorce) she experienced psychosis. She learned to stuff things and not talk about emotions.

Her mom is also BPD (expressed through raging). For SD23 to get her needs met from H, she couldn't be like her BPD mom (maybe thinking dad would abandon her). So SD23 figured that somatic complaints work, extreme need, desperate need for reassurance, etc work to get her dad to be there. He is a rescuer. She learned to need rescuing.

But I keep thinking, What is she going for?

Instead of saying, "I have diarrhea, I might be really sick dad." Why not say, "Dad I need to feel connected. I'm afraid of how intense my feelings are right now. I'm scared to be alone."

H is a physician. SD23 talks about her poop more than anyone I've ever met  

I am learning to joke with H. He got a text yesterday morning and I said, "Must be SD23 to let you know if she's pooped." Before, I was not commenting, only thinking "Yuck. Who wants to hear that all the time?" Out for dinner one night with H and SD23's (then) BF, we were waiting 15 min for SD23 to come out of the restaurant. BF said, "She's pooping."  He shows me her text with poop emojis and kind of shrugs. "She always tells me when she's pooped."  

I mean, pfffft. Does SD23 need to text that because she's alone in a bathroom stall and feels the need to connect?

SD23 was diagnosed bipolar at age 16. Why not say, "My feelings are doing x. I need y."

She can't seem to do that. Instead, it's "my wing isn't flapping help help." Or else texts about poop  

Then there is the suicidal ideation (seems to be flying under the radar for now, at least overtly. It's more like, "I can't do this anymore.")

Marsha talks about BPD chronic suicidal ideation as a failure of assertion. She writes,

"Learning assertiveness is learning to be effective in the world, to be able to get what you need through effective behavior, while at the same time maintaining good relationships and maintaining your self-respect."

Major light bulb for me!

SD23 struggles to assert herself.

She only knows these flawed ways. She can get immediate, overwhelming needs met but at the same time those behaviors to get her needs met push people away. She does not know how to effectively assert herself. We don't help her when we focus on acceptance without also focusing on change.

"Being assertive helps you make clear to others what your immediate goals are. It is about being effective, doing what works ... it is about being unambiguous in what you say and in your relationships with others."

SD23 is struggling right now. So many calls to H, texts all day long, distress, distress, distress. Then crisis. H soothes her, she says, "I'm better now." Then the cycle repeats, sometimes within minutes. It's exhausting.  

I can see now why enabling SD23 is particularly troublesome because then she fails to learn to assert herself effectively. With enabling, SD23 may think she does not need to learn new ways because her current ways are getting the immediate need met. But the current ways don't solve the bigger problem which is that she cannot tolerate being alone (abandonment). Meanwhile, she wears people out who love her.

If she were to say to her dad, "I cannot be alone" then his response would adjust to that.
Instead, SD23 focuses on anything that seems to hook H. She is whoever she must be to get people to reassure her, or pay attention to her, or validate her. The result is that she experiences both real and imagined crises, constantly.

One night H said to me, "SD23 called me twice today and she's been texting all day. You would be proud of me because I told her I wasn't available to talk tonight and could touch base with her tomorrow."

Then that night SD23 texts about 30 texts in a row -- a pattern typical of high distress for her. H worries about psychosis. From SD23, lots of somatic complaints, ruminating on whether she'll be hired back next year, she is failing at her job, etc.

And H is off and running with her. He feels irritated and it comes across. Then SD23 is upset about that. H was saying, "Don't do this to yourself. Go have a warm bath or shower. Make tea. Listen to music. Watch a comedy. Knit. Play your guitar." SD23 is now trying to repair her relationship with her dad and that goes on into the night with texts.

Our part in this is a failure to be explicit.

I think about saying to H, "You had a boundary for SD23 and she tested it big time. Now she is confident that this level of distress will work in the future when and if other boundaries are introduced."

Then, "How about point this out to her?"

What is the cost of saying to her, "When I wasn't going to be available, you became very distressed. I won't always be able to be there. Let's focus on what you can do when you feel alone or abandoned."

I don't know. I'm just wondering out loud why we (me included) find it so hard to be explicit (and loving) about the ineffective part of getting needs met with a BPD loved one.

Why not pay attention to the moves so we can better understand where she is failing to effectively assert herself?

I sometimes feel like, in our blended family at least, we pretend we aren't walking on eggshells  

[livednlearned]

I just finished Marsha Linehan's memoir "Building a Life Experiencing as Worth Living. Marsha developed DBT and is herself BPD.

Lots of notes   I'm explaining something to myself here so this is a bit long.

I understand now why BPD traits can present in such different ways (raging, say, versus more quiet BPD traits like the ones that SD23 has).

Raging might have become (dysfunctionally) effective for one child in some families. Another child may have learned different dysfunctional behaviors. Like cutting. Or somatic complaints. Or suicidal ideation. Or drugs, lying, running away, etc.

Intense, extreme emotions occur in someone with BPD. There is poor language expression/skills to describe these feelings, or understand them, or name them, or communicate them, so then these other behaviors are tried out as a way to express intense emotions. Some behaviors seem to discharge the pain or at the very least get loved ones to pay attention to the emotions, the pain. There may not be a lot of thought that goes along with these behaviors.

For SD23, I think maybe she learned disassociating. She stuffed feelings so much that when a particularly challenging crisis happened (her parents divorce) she experienced psychosis. She learned to stuff things and not talk about emotions.

Her mom is also BPD (expressed through raging). For SD23 to get her needs met from H, she couldn't be like her BPD mom (maybe thinking dad would abandon her). So SD23 figured that somatic complaints work, extreme need, desperate need for reassurance, etc work to get her dad to be there. He is a rescuer. She learned to need rescuing.

But I keep thinking, What is she going for?

Instead of saying, "I have diarrhea, I might be really sick dad." Why not say, "Dad I need to feel connected. I'm afraid of how intense my feelings are right now. I'm scared to be alone."

H is a physician. SD23 talks about her poop more than anyone I've ever met  

I am learning to joke with H. He got a text yesterday morning and I said, "Must be SD23 to let you know if she's pooped." Before, I was not commenting, only thinking "Yuck. Who wants to hear that all the time?" Out for dinner one night with H and SD23's (then) BF, we were waiting 15 min for SD23 to come out of the restaurant. BF said, "She's pooping."  He shows me her text with poop emojis and kind of shrugs. "She always tells me when she's pooped."  

I mean, pfffft. Does SD23 need to text that because she's alone in a bathroom stall and feels the need to connect?

SD23 was diagnosed bipolar at age 16. Why not say, "My feelings are doing x. I need y."

She can't seem to do that. Instead, it's "my wing isn't flapping help help." Or else texts about poop  

Then there is the suicidal ideation (seems to be flying under the radar for now, at least overtly. It's more like, "I can't do this anymore.")

Marsha talks about BPD chronic suicidal ideation as a failure of assertion. She writes,

"Learning assertiveness is learning to be effective in the world, to be able to get what you need through effective behavior, while at the same time maintaining good relationships and maintaining your self-respect."

Major light bulb for me!

SD23 struggles to assert herself.

She only knows these flawed ways. She can get immediate, overwhelming needs met but at the same time those behaviors to get her needs met push people away. She does not know how to effectively assert herself. We don't help her when we focus on acceptance without also focusing on change.

"Being assertive helps you make clear to others what your immediate goals are. It is about being effective, doing what works ... it is about being unambiguous in what you say and in your relationships with others."

SD23 is struggling right now. So many calls to H, texts all day long, distress, distress, distress. Then crisis. H soothes her, she says, "I'm better now." Then the cycle repeats, sometimes within minutes. It's exhausting.  

I can see now why enabling SD23 is particularly troublesome because then she fails to learn to assert herself effectively. With enabling, SD23 may think she does not need to learn new ways because her current ways are getting the immediate need met. But the current ways don't solve the bigger problem which is that she cannot tolerate being alone (abandonment). Meanwhile, she wears people out who love her.

If she were to say to her dad, "I cannot be alone" then his response would adjust to that.
Instead, SD23 focuses on anything that seems to hook H. She is whoever she must be to get people to reassure her, or pay attention to her, or validate her. The result is that she experiences both real and imagined crises, constantly.

One night H said to me, "SD23 called me twice today and she's been texting all day. You would be proud of me because I told her I wasn't available to talk tonight and could touch base with her tomorrow."

Then that night SD23 texts about 30 texts in a row -- a pattern typical of high distress for her. H worries about psychosis. From SD23, lots of somatic complaints, ruminating on whether she'll be hired back next year, she is failing at her job, etc.

And H is off and running with her. He feels irritated and it comes across. Then SD23 is upset about that. H was saying, "Don't do this to yourself. Go have a warm bath or shower. Make tea. Listen to music. Watch a comedy. Knit. Play your guitar." SD23 is now trying to repair her relationship with her dad and that goes on into the night with texts.

Our part in this is a failure to be explicit.

I think about saying to H, "You had a boundary for SD23 and she tested it big time. Now she is confident that this level of distress will work in the future when and if other boundaries are introduced."

Then, "How about point this out to her?"

What is the cost of saying to her, "When I wasn't going to be available, you became very distressed. I won't always be able to be there. Let's focus on what you can do when you feel alone or abandoned."

I don't know. I'm just wondering out loud why we (me included) find it so hard to be explicit (and loving) about the ineffective part of getting needs met with a BPD loved one.

Why not pay attention to the moves so we can better understand where she is failing to effectively assert herself?

I sometimes feel like, in our blended family at least, we pretend we aren't walking on eggshells  

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[once removed]

Intense, extreme emotions occur in someone with BPD. There are is poor language expression to describe these feelings, or understand them, or name them, or communicate them, so then these other behaviors are tried out as a way to express intense emotions.
...
There may not be a lot of thought that goes along with these behaviors.
...
SD23 was diagnosed bipolar at age 16. Why not say, "My feelings are doing x. I need y."
...
I don't know. I'm just wondering out loud why we (me included) find it so hard to be explicit (and loving) about the ineffective part of getting needs met with a BPD loved one.

really gets me thinking!

what occurs to me is that (and not to minimize the extremity, the differences, and the unique ways they apply to BPD) we all do these things on some level, and we all struggle to name and communicate our feelings, and get our needs met in mature, healthy ways. that applies to the healthiest most self aware individuals walking the planet.

so many of us here came to BPDFamily to better learn that, about ourselves, and to find better ways. no doubt, you have worked especially hard at that, and it has served you well.

i think one of the things that depersonalizes it for me, is that the way that we react and respond is about us. our BPD loved ones use these extreme methods of getting our attention, or getting under our skin, but enabling is its own failure of assertiveness, its own way of coping, and the dynamic sort of works both ways. thats hard to change. its really hard to see, in the first place, even if you want to.

human nature, self awareness, and family dynamics are so complex and complicated. doing all of this together, as a blended family, is a long, protracted battle. it would be in the best of cases.

ive followed your posts for a long time, and i hope that you can see, even when its hardest, that youve all come a long way.

[PeaceMom]

This post makes me think of DD20’s limited ability to advocate for herself in an effective way. She typically waits too long for self care then she’s on full blown crises. She is very ineffective bc at this point she’s a raging ball of fire and all anyone around her wants to do is RUN.

One decent T she had taught her that she must develop the skills to prevent “HALT”. This meant never let yourself get Hungry, Angry, Lonely or Tired. Plan ahead, Cope ahead bc when pwBPD get in these states, they absolutely struggle to get out of them.

She said skills must be acquired to prepare ahead. Accurate verbal expression and communication is lacking in my DD. I’ve always wondered if DD’s emotional dysregulation might stem more from an auditory processing issue.

She can talk in circles, and relays inaccuracies to us about important issues. That’s why I’m always confused when talking with her. She was tested in school but nothing ever showed up.

Interesting topic here.

Then I think about my own assertiveness and weak boundaries. I believe we all struggle with knowing how to effectively protect ourself and communicate what we need.

[PeaceMom]

LNL,
Psychosis is terrifying to see in your child. I speak from experience. Add your H’s  medical knowledge of psychosis to the personal experience, no wonder he’s afraid for SD.

I’ve really had to work on worst case (this is regarding DS w/BP1 with psychotic features) scenarios to prepare ahead for the chance he may experience psychosis again. Seeing a child go thru psychosis is pure 100% trauma for a parent. My H and I both have PTSD from it.

Could your H get some help coming to terms with how terrifying that was? If so, maybe he could move forward in an offensive posture instead of a defensive one.

 Has he shared with his daughter that IF she will verbalize to him how she’s feeling scared, alone, lonely, he will be there for her? Could he tell her all concerns about her health need to go to a nurse on call phone line (or something like that?)? Maybe any concerns about her job could be voiced to a T?  Could firm topics of communication boundaries create a healthier dad/daughter (Not doctor/ patient) relationship?

Isn’t that what she really wants?

Just brainstorming here:)

[livednlearned]

enabling is its own failure of assertiveness

ooh. Thanks for putting it that way.

we all do these things on some level, and we all struggle to name and communicate our feelings, and get our needs met in mature, healthy ways.

That's what I'm getting at ... it is so hard to assert, or to model healthy assertion in these relationships. Both sides.

I know some BPD loved ones rage a lot, and that probably seems like a type of assertion. But I would argue it's aggression. With SD23, she relies on covert aggression.

Having been married to someone with BPD I know that aggression can make it near impossible to be assertive (out of fear) and I couldn't make micro-assertions very successfully to I ended up with extreme assertion (divorce). I wonder tho, had I know about BPD and skills I learned (still learn) here if we could've avoided things going from bad to super bad to worse and then intolerable.

I'm getting a second go now that I have SD23 in my life. Building the strength to be more assertive even though I'm the step parent and the blended dynamics are a bit tricky.

We might be moving sometime this year and I feel like I'm preparing for SD23 to have a crisis, one that tests whether she can get her dad to drop everything and tend to her.

This "failure to assert" on my part is something I'm trying to get my head around so that as much is in place as possible when/if we move.

I think about my own assertiveness and weak boundaries. I believe we all struggle with knowing how to effectively protect ourself and communicate what we need.

PM, for me the degree to which I struggle with this ... it has a lot to do with conditioning.

I think if I understood better why assertiveness is a challenge I would be more effective.

Believing that assertiveness is something we all struggle with (BPD to an extreme) takes out the nuanced skills I'm trying to figure out.

I am learning to accept the limits of my relationship with SD23. I can be more effective if I say what I'm observing. I may not get the results immediately or exactly pleasantly, but I can point out what I see.

I'm not as likely to do that given how desperately I want there to be peace.

[livednlearned]

Psychosis is terrifying to see in your child.

Same for me, but with my ex (n/BPDx with bipolar).

I read somewhere the history of psychology originates from trying to understand why some people experience psychosis.

I would also argue that having a child express SI is terrifying. That's why reading Linehan's book was so fascinating. Her purpose in life has been dedicated to helping the "most troubled, most disturbed" who suffer from chronic SI. She does not babysit -- some of the things she says to her clients is shocking, yet it is delivered with love and care. I cannot imagine saying to SD23, "I cannot prevent you from taking your life." Or being irreverent, as Linehan was with some of her patients.

It made me wonder if the terror and (our) trauma interferes with being assertive, being effective.

That it's better to talk about the elephant in the room rather than look away.

Has he shared with his daughter that IF she will verbalize to him how she’s feeling scared, alone, lonely, he will be there for her?

He has a bit of a savior complex. As do I. So the problem isn't "I will be there for you, dun ta dun."

It's more like seeing how our own needs are enabling this failure to assert, if that makes sense.

[PeaceMom]

I know why I fail to effectively assert myself-FEAR ! Plain and simple. As my T told me this week, I must get in my DBT workbook and work thru whether my fears are valid and if they are, what next? How can I protect myself? It’s all in the work book in a very logical fashion.

Basically, when DD is acting crazy and raging I’m afraid “FEAR” she will harm herself, bring dangerous people to her home or cause me/H/dog/siblings to actually have a medical issue like heart attack. We decided those fears are actually a high probability so then you decide ahead of time how I would handle each of those scenarios and how/if I could manage.

Then I must pick which way i plan to proceed. Honestly, in the past I’ve been very hesitant (Denial? Not ready mentally? wishful thinking?) to go all the way there in my mind with the what if’s...
Fascinating stuff and once again, I can only control me!

[mggt]

Very interesting topic. How I wish our d could assert her self appropriate. We wouldn’t have half the misunderstandings and all of the anger. But that is so typical of bp they can’t express themselves without a crisis.             

Personally I’m tired of thinking 10 steps ahead on how to answer react or have a conversation with her.

[PeaceMom]

Mggt,
I totally agree. Is it really up to us to do all the planning 10 steps ahead of each and every possible scenario to protect ourselves.
On the other boards I see the topic of LC or NC come up daily. Not here though. I guess parents just rarely get to that point.

[FaithHopeLove]

This is such a great thread! I also just got done reading this excellent book. I wonder if our ( BPD and non) failures to assert ourselves are connected to a sense of shame over unacceptable needs. We live in a culture where everything is about self-sufficiency. Emotional vulnerability is not encouraged. For example physical illness is far more acceptable a malady than mental illness. Therefore to get our needs met met requires some " translating." How great it would be if we could all just be honest!

[Turkish]

Raging might have become (dysfunctionally) effective for one child in some families. Another child may have learned different dysfunctional behaviors. Like cutting. Or somatic complaints. Or suicidal ideation. Or drugs, lying, running away, etc.

This reminds me of something written in Understanding The Borderline Mother,  "...lying feels like survival."

The dysfunctional (from our point of view) behaviors are survival mechanisms and cries for help.

It's so hard not to respond and maybe unwittingly enable it, like your husband. She's his little girl after all, even at 23.

I enabled and rescued my BPD mother for almost three decades (I won't count my childhood, but there was that),   emotionally and financially.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[PeaceMom]

Faith,

I agree with you. Being honest first with myself about what I really need on a deep personal level and asking WHY can help me get my mission statement together then I can be more confident and assertive moving forward.

That same attitude would have helped me parent DD and help her figure out hers.

Miscommunication and misunderstanding seem to be a the core of all of the BPD symptoms. I fantasize about life’s pace being much slower (impossible with 4 kids close in age) so that we could have asked validating, nonjudgmental questions to clarify what the heck she was expressing and really needed.

Looking back, she interrupted constantly about seeming off topic, irrelevant things. We would all stop and listen, but as it went on and on we’d have to stop her. Looking back I see how this did not teach her to be more effective, it simply taught her to talk louder and be more commanding to get our attention.

This is a tough pill for me to swallow as I struggle with a competency shame bind so if I fall short of be “competent” (not perfect), I’m really hard on myself.

Life w/DD is like trying to repair a plane while it’s flying...

[livednlearned]

I’m tired of thinking 10 steps ahead on how to answer react or have a conversation with her.

I feel this way a lot, too.

I wonder if our ( BPD and non) failures to assert ourselves are connected to a sense of shame over unacceptable needs.

...

How great it would be if we could all just be honest!

What would being honest mean in these circumstances?

I go over this one scenario with SD23 and try to imagine myself responding honestly. I didn't when it happened and it built a lot of resentment. In therapy, I revisit this scenario over and over, trying to practice or role-play or prepare for the next version of a similar scenario.

I would be asserting my feelings and needs before any other collateral emotion, like guilt or fear. Essentially, "No, I don't care to do that." No explanation. Focusing on how I feel, whether it feels right to me. And not simply saying No, but feeling the sensation of using assertive language to relieve myself.

Often I say one thing and feel another, and I have no doubt this comes across.

It's so hard not to respond and maybe unwittingly enable it, like your husband. She's his little girl after all, even at 23.

She is both wolf and sheep. H sees only the sheep. And H also has this personal code about being the sheepdog. It's something he references often. I have said, "SD23 is a sheep, and she is also a wolf. Some people can be both." The idea that he might be getting played by SD23 is unthinkable to him.

There are days (more and more) when I feel so saddened and fed up and tired of trying to do things the right way.

I worry that if I am not assertive and honest that these feelings will build up and come out sideways, and it will be hard to recover.

My therapist said that feeling splits in a family is very typical of BPD psychodynamics. It is not just splitting psychologically, as a trait. It is splitting relationships and creating factions of good/bad people, or good/bad behaviors.

Doing things super carefully is wearing me out.

I feel like I think about this stuff way too much. It's probably because I'm not asserting myself, and over thinking things, and trying too hard.

I don't know. Some days I feel like what's the point of being so careful all the time

Ugh. Having some hard days here.

[Panda39]

Intense, extreme emotions occur in someone with BPD. There is poor language expression/skills to describe these feelings, or understand them, or name them, or communicate them, so then these other behaviors are tried out as a way to express intense emotions. Some behaviors seem to discharge the pain or at the very least get loved ones to pay attention to the emotions, the pain. There may not be a lot of thought that goes along with these behaviors.

I have a step-daughter diagnosed with PTSD but also has what looks to me like BPD Traits (her mom is uBPD).  She is very bad at asserting herself she is a huge people pleaser until she can't do it anymore and either puts herself in a situation to her own detriment that she can't get out of or she emotionally blows...waify behaviors...lots of tears...she's the victim.  She is a victim of her own inability to ask for what she really wants or needs...her inability to say "no".

The other thing I see is because she is trying to please everyone there is a lot of half-truths, partial stories, omitted information or I or her sister are told something that she is scared to tell her dad...hoping we will break her bad news to him so she doesn't have to.  Both her sister and I have refused to play that game. (stay off the Triangle!)

I see a lot of behavior like mentioned in Lnl's quote above, SD19 calls from college with a dramatic situation or need (maybe real/maybe an excuse to call), but she can't just call to say hi I miss you and wanted to talk.  It is always, I have a problem fix it.  There never seems to be attempted problem solving on her part, but why would she when her problems get her attention.  Negative attention is still attention.

So yes there is an inability to appropriately assert her needs and in some cases the skills to articulate them. 

Even if she could manage to clearly, without the drama, or games express her needs the other problem for me becomes that those needs seem to be endless...the need is bottomless...exhausting.

I know use my tools, self-care, boundaries, listen, validation, validating questions that put the problem solving back on her etc.  But it is so tiring, even with the years of therapy my SD19 has had the patterns replay over and over again.

Panda39

[livednlearned]

Even if she could manage to clearly, without the drama, or games express her needs the other problem for me becomes that those needs seem to be endless...the need is bottomless...exhausting.

Does your H perceive she may have BPD traits?

I perceive that H's ability to tolerate the exhaustion of SD23's needs is bottomless.

I could be wrong but unless there is a crisis in which she is hospitalized, or has a severe crisis and receives a proper biopsychosocial workup that ends up in a BPD dx, nothing will change.

[PeaceMom]

Panda,

You said it perfectly. Even if she can express her needs calmly and respectfully, they never end. I’ve told my T that I keep helping to meet needs (even by thinking thru solutions with her and bouncing them back to her) bc I’m assuming at some point she’ll be stable enough to take over.  I’m the ultimate Resistant CoDependent. I don’t have a savior complex. I get very little satisfaction out of listening and problem solving while wearing full body armor to resist being verbally abused.

I suppose a wise T would say “then STOP”. Maybe I’ll do what LNL mentioned and try saying “I don’t desire to help you with that issue.”

[Panda39]

Yes, he has wondered if she has BPD, he sees the traits.  He alternates between rescuing her and being overwhelmed by her.  I have suggested to him that he try and put her problem-solving back on her.

She has been in therapy the entire time I have known him...10 years and she has had 2 hospitalizations for suicide threats, apparently has issues with food, and a history of cutting (neither of which I have seen...but she has been off at camp & school since we all moved in together).  We now have (she's gone from identifying as lesbian to bi) boys, sex, drinking/drugs, college etc. added into the mix.

For my part I try and talk with her and listen when I can, but more as a friendly adult not a parent.  This does not happen often as she is a night owl and sleeps much of the day away and I'm an early bird and I'm part of the family but our blended family comes together in different combinations...the 3 of them, my son and I, my partner and me, the kids and the adults etc.  There are also roles that have not changed just because we a all living together.  Her older sister SD23 still plays mom when it comes to SD19 so I don't try to assume that role, I'm not interested in competing for it.

I see my role as a support to my Partner, but I'm not always successful there either.  I can get overwhelmed by his neediness that gets stacked on top of the neediness of his daughter, or get triggered by stuff that is going on too.  I'm an introvert that likes solitude and now there are 5 of us...time alone is at a premium, it is harder to recharge my own batteries.

PeaceMom, yep there are definitely times when I just don't want to deal with what's going on, or fix the whole worlds problems, or be your emotional crutch...and then I feel like a selfish...bad...partner/stepmom, try and do it anyway and become resentful.   

Wow you guys, I must need to vent some 
Thanks for listening,
Panda39

[Turkish]

I like the sheep, wolf, sheepdog analogy. Makes sense how a person could switch from a wolf in sheep's clothing to a sheep in wolf's clothing, depending upon mood, need and what works in the situation.

For my ex, I was too busy sheep dogging the pasture and not paying as much attention to her.  My mother was another story. She reveled in fighting "The Man" who was oppressing her, yet when she really need help, she'd reach out. Unfortunately, that triggered her lack of self worth and in the end she turned on me, even though I could have helped her deal with her last problems with relative easy. Hobson's Choice.

[livednlearned]

Has anyone had success being blunt with a BPD loved one?

I realize each of us have different relationships and dynamics and patterns. Not to mention different types of BPD traits and levels of severity. And our own stuff, whether it’s codependent tendencies or anxieties.

With my ex (BPD) I had some success with NO when I meant it, while also feeling grounded and calm. He became almost childlike. I cannot seem to figure out how to be that way with SD23 without it impacting other relationships. Curious what others have experienced with direct yet grounded communication.

[FaithHopeLove]

I have had success bluntly saying no when doing it unemotionally. By success I mean my son understands no means no, not that he likes it or responds positively.

[twocrazycats]

I haven't read the book yet, but this is a fascinating thread.

I do think that one of the reasons why my 19 year old uBPD daughter has difficulty asserting herself is her sense of shame at having what might be to her unacceptable needs. For one thing, she is a perfectionist. But she also tends to see things in black and white. So when she is not perfect, she is worthless. Because there's nothing in between. And she feels shame about that.
 
But I also see another reason for her inability to assert herself. She does not have a stable sense of self to assert. She is not comfortable with her "self." Therefore, she puts on many different personalities to be acceptable to the different people and in the different situations in her life. She can be overly assertive with me to the point of being aggressive. But with certain friends, with professors in college, with bosses when she was working, she would not dare to voice her opinion if it differed from theirs. Not so much out of fear, more out of a desire to be a different person herself when she's with them. Because my dd, when she is alone (and heaven help us, she will be home on spring break next week), doesn't really know who she is.

My own tendency to enable her and not assert myself, I think, has many reasons. Among them, I grew up in a dysfunctional family with a mother who I now realize, most likely had BPD. Years of therapy have helped me to function very well in the world and with most people. But when I was confronted with BPD behaviors, well, that just threw me off the ledge, and I was off before I knew what was happening. Another reason is that my dd was sick with Lyme Disease in high school, then got a severe concussion playing field hockey, then developed severe depression and severe anxiety with panic attacks. She was very high maintenance for a while. I slipped into a pattern of being the caretaker. DD even said to me at one point that she felt like she was "my project," because I was doing so much research on ways to help her.

Anyway, I've been working on my own behaviors and reactions. It has helped. I have to stay as close to gray rock as possible with her. When I do, we can get along okay most of the time. I cannot show my own feelings. She does not seem to have empathy for other people. I have come to accept that she cannot have empathy right now and maybe never will. Maybe someday she will though. I hope so but am not counting on it.

I can sometimes be blunt with her successfully. I absolutely have to have my own feelings under control to do it and act totally neutral, totally gray rock, especially if it is regarding boundaries. I have calmly set a limit and said, "this is not about you or controlling you, it's about me and what I need to feel safe and comfortable in my own house." There was one time she was home from college and feeling extremely depressed (found out she had to retake a course in her major) and felt she couldn't go back. I told her she had to. I said "You have to go back. You just have to plow through this and go back." I also said that when I knew she was really desperate, I would never leave her alone, but that I won't always be here to help her, so she needs to learn how to get through it herself. Well, to my surprise the depression lightened, she got herself ready, and asked me to take her back to college. So much depends on the situation, but I'm realizing that a lot also really does depend on me and how I talk and act with her.

Peacemom, I think it was you who said that living with your dd was like trying to repair a plane while it's flying. That is so, so true for my dd too. She's supposed to be functioning like a young adult, but she's got this disorder, and so I'm trying to do as much good as I can while I can while at the same time survive myself.

Just some rambling thoughts...

2CC

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Turkish]

Well, I was blunt (with SET) when my ex asked to borrow $25k to pay off her credit cards...

So when she is not perfect, she is worthless. Because there's nothing in between. And she feels shame about that.

This is the key to understanding how a person with BPD feels.  Shame and lack of self-worth.

[Lollypop]

Hi there

Great thread!  

Has anyone had success being blunt with a BPD loved one?

Yes, my younger son19. He just tells it as it is and amazingly DS29 takes it without crumbling.

Whereas, every little thing I’ve said and done in the past is remembered!  My words and criticisms really hurt son29, so I’m gentler now. Getting it right is tough for me. Too hard or too soft is my history.

The words that came to me when I read the starting post were “detach with love”.  This was my starting point in this crazy journey of mine. Acceptance that I couldn’t change him, release him and give him the dignity to live his own life.

Actually, that’s incredibly hard to do but it has the benefit of just not being so involved practically and emotionally with my adult son’s problems. I have to teach myself, re-learn a new role of motherhood.

Detach with love, radical acceptance, live my own life. I was such an enabler and I’m still very much work in progress. Sorry, this rambles a lot!

I’m going to pass on an observation that my younger son19 made a few weeks ago that I picked up on. I’ve always tried to be truthful and open with him so he could learn how to set boundaries for himself, to better understand son29’s limitations and not be manipulated by his older brother. Younger son was talking about himself and the kind of person he wants to become and he said “I see you managing xxxx, asking yourself if he’s ok, is he coping. I don’t want to be that sort of person - one that you worry about.”

It got me thinking about my role once again. Yes, I worry. Do I need to worry?  Is that need part of me and how I see myself?

My enabling fills my need to be loved. It isn’t healthy and shouldn’t be part of any decent relationship. Words like “equal” (I am an adult, DS29 is an adult)  and “detach with love” help me work my way through that FOG.

It’s just so darned hard to disentangle the complexities and it’s exhausting. I’ve not been active in the forum for many months now.  I’m glad I popped in to find this thread as it reminds me that I’ve slipped!

LP

[livednlearned]

I have had success bluntly saying no when doing it unemotionally. By success I mean my son understands no means no, not that he likes it or responds positively.

Responding positively to "no" isn't something that SD23 does either. Her aggressions are covert so in the past "no" has been met with emotional fall-out that I find confusing. If things get quiet I know I'm about to get drenched in a storm.

She does not have a stable sense of self to assert. She is not comfortable with her "self."

twocrazycats, I think this is what Linehan is getting at when she discusses a failure to assert oneself although she rarely (if at all?) discusses the role of "self" in assertion, or the struggle with "self" that a person with BPD may have. At least that I recall.

I was going to ask, So what does that mean for someone (parent, sibling, friend, partner, self parent, etc) in relationship with a person who has no self to assert? I am predisposed to put someone else's needs ahead of my own. Asserting, like FaithHopeLove mentioned, can be successful in one way (no means no, and is understood) but the blowback is a different type of difficult. It's like trading one kind of difficult (being steam rolled) for another (hand to hand combat).

I cannot show my own feelings. She does not seem to have empathy for other people. I have come to accept that she cannot have empathy right now and maybe never will.

This is where I seem to be at with my adult step daughter. If I am sad she seems to enjoy it. She asked once, "Why the long face?" and I responded that I was concerned about S18, who had been in surgery. And I felt (saw?) satisfaction on her face. My therapist has suggested I answer more along the lines of, "Oh? I guess my face is long. Huh." And not give an inch.

If I don't alter my behavior this way, I feel like an outsider in my own home when she is visiting.

In interactions with SD23, I feel complicated emotions and I struggle to sort out a natural, healthy, quick (kind?) way to respond. It's been a challenge realizing that most interactions with SD23 are about a battle even if it's not clear to me what position she is fighting for. I'm not always clear what asserting one's self means in these interactions. Does it mean figuring out what her position is and making sure I am not gamed? Modeling regulated emotions and "I" statements about what I like/don't like? If you had to model healthy assertion for someone who doesn't have a "self" (a radical and complicated idea), what is it?

I can sometimes be blunt with her successfully. I absolutely have to have my own feelings under control to do it and act totally neutral, totally gray rock, especially if it is regarding boundaries. I have calmly set a limit and said, "this is not about you or controlling you, it's about me and what I need to feel safe and comfortable in my own house."

You have a level of honesty with your DD that is missing for me. Maybe that's what I am trying to figure out in terms of assertion. I am more likely to pretend that nothing is wrong with SD23 and that nothing is wrong in our relationship, in our interactions. I think that I have radically accepted yet another traumatized, very troubled BPD sufferer in my life but maybe I am confusing this with pretending that everything is ok.

When it comes to asserting myself, I do not feel permission to be honest with SD23 about her behaviors. She would mount a defense, I am sure. But the words would be out there and I wonder if this assertion of mine might be challenging for the family on one hand but also healthier. Maybe I am confusing assertion with directness.

I'm realizing that a lot also really does depend on me and how I talk and act with her

I am surprised how much is about word choice. This may be why I am so drawn to the topic of assertion. Trying to figure out how the concept applies to micro interactions, and to word choice.

What happens when a BPD loved one is struggling to assert his or herself, and it's unhealthy -- at a minimum is ineffective, or at its worse causes harm and fear and abuse -- does that mean asserting yourself, your idea of healthy behaviors, whether to defend yourself or to simply assert your needs must (always, more often than not, usually) take precedent?

I guess being assertive is a spectrum of learning what is and is not effective? And giving yourself permission to show strength (assertion) even if it creates distress in someone so traumatized.

the key to understanding how a person with BPD feels.  Shame and lack of self-worth.

With SD23 the key seems to be how intolerable it is to be alone. Even when she's with others, she cannot create intimacy. It's about her even when she's with other people. She's trying desperately to get something without knowing it can't come from others. She has to feel it inside (Linehan discusses that in profound ways in her memoir).

my younger son19 [...] just tells it as it is and amazingly DS29 takes it without crumbling.

Similar with SD23's siblings. Her BPD mother is also blunt.

“detach with love”.  This was my starting point in this crazy journey of mine. Acceptance that I couldn’t change him

Do you think that's the same as 2CC's description of gray rock?

I worry. Do I need to worry?  Is that need part of me and how I see myself?

I am working on this too. Thanks for the reminder 

[PeaceMom]

2CC,
I think I posted that I read somewhere that a pwBPD’s biggest nightmare would be being in the same room with all the people she has known in her life, together! She has been so many different people bc she has no sense of self so all of them coming together to see that would be horrific. Isn’t that sad?

[PeaceMom]

LNL,
Please expand more as you can about being assertive vs being direct. Assertive seems more like I’m getting a foot in the door somewhere. Being direct seems like I’m simply stating what’s on my mind without hesitancy.

Your SD’s behavior around peers sounds just like my DD. It was so hard to have her little friends in the backseat of my car, listening to them talk bc it was usually all DD. Very one sided, no true connection what so ever. I would cringe and sometimes cut in to ask the other kid Qs or about her preferences. I always encouraged social activities bc I believed they would teach her. But they didn’t. Thinking back about those times has me in a full blown sweat here...

[Lollypop]

Hi lnl

Do you think that's the same as 2CC's description of gray rock?

No I don’t think so as I understand grey rock to be about being straight and unemotional. My DS29 would feel this as uncaring. Having said that, being too emotional triggers guilt, expectation  etc. Detach with love is more touchy feely whilst leaving their problems in their lap.Warm tone of voice, straight forwards statement, authentic and genuine caring about them. An example I learnt years ago was from another mum of a drug addict “oh darling, of course taking cocaine will cause you problems like this”. Facts. Truth. Love. Understanding. Detachment.

There’s times though when we’ve been in a situation where DS29 must comply with a boundary. For instance, paying a contribution to his living expenses. This means being assertive rather than direct - well, that’s how I see it. I’m assertive because if I’m not, then I’m not only enabling but also moving backwards in my goal for a healthier relationship. I’m assertive so we can get along better by preventing resentments to build. I use DEARMAN and I’ve also taught both of my sons to use it in their lives (eg negotiate a pay rise).

I don’t know if I’ve got the difference between directness and assertiveness correct. But this is how I see it. Each of our situations are unique.

I’m definitely still too hard or too soft but lean more towards the middle grey area - it’s safer in there!  Demonstrating detachment by allowing them to deal with their problems themselves while being emotionally supported worked for us. I’ve found his need for this support is much reducing as he learns to live independently.

LP

[twocrazycats]

You have a level of honesty with your DD that is missing for me. Maybe that's what I am trying to figure out in terms of assertion. I am more likely to pretend that nothing is wrong with SD23 and that nothing is wrong in our relationship, in our interactions. I think that I have radically accepted yet another traumatized, very troubled BPD sufferer in my life but maybe I am confusing this with pretending that everything is ok.

When it comes to asserting myself, I do not feel permission to be honest with SD23 about her behaviors. She would mount a defense, I am sure. But the words would be out there and I wonder if this assertion of mine might be challenging for the family on one hand but also healthier. Maybe I am confusing assertion with directness.

Oh, no, I do not have much of a level of honesty with my dd at all. I was straightforward/blunt about the boundary that I set, but it didn't come from a level of intimacy that a parent would have with a nonBPD son or daughter. It came from a desperate need to do SOMETHING. I had read the wording in, I believe, one of Randi Krieger's books, and I knew I had to try it. Since my dd cannot handle any emotion on my part (and I am, by nature, a very emotional person), I try to use what they call gray rock. For me, that means interacting with her in a neutral way, totally without emotion, as if I were a robot. The only feeling that I allow her to see is love/caring for her. I don't allow her to see any emotion that shows vulnerability on my part. She simply can't handle it.

For me, detaching with love has a broader meaning. I've been very enmeshed in my dd's life since she started having her physical/mental health problems around age 13. Detaching with love means that I still love her, want the best for her, but, for the most part, I allow her to fly on her own, so to speak. She lives at college most of the time. I have no idea what she's doing most of the time. And, for the most part, I've reached the point where I don't even think about it. I love when she calls, but we talk mostly about superficial things. Either that, or I help her work through some problem. But then I hang up and go about my life. I can't say I love it when she comes home, a) she makes it clear from the start how much she hates being home, and b) I never know which "her" I'm going to be dealing with, so it might be okay and it might not.

I guess I would say that I do try true honesty, or maybe I should call it a different level of bluntness, at carefully chosen times. Sometimes I just think, how would I respond to a nonbpd who said that? And then, if the circumstances seem right, give her that response. I do it because that's how the world will respond to her for the rest of her life. But it's a little like medicine. I only give it in small, measured doses to start, hoping that she'll be able to handle it better and better.

We do have the advantage that my dd realizes and accepts that she has BPD. She knows that she has trouble being alone. She knows that she has mood swings from manic to depression. She will say to me that she's concerned because she's been feeling manic. I don't know, it's still just so hard.

2CC

[PeaceMom]

2CC ,
This gray rock is exactly how I try to communicate. The problem is I feel like a robot/fake/fraud. My H refuses to play the gray rock game. He feels the real world wont handle her with kid gloves and that when she rages, unless she’s dealing with a professional MH worker, no one will want to listen or help.

Clearly, you’ve come a long way in your journey of radical acceptance, acknowledging your (reluctant?) enmeshment, and realistically lowered any expectation of empathy on your DD’s part. I’m there with you as I expect nothing FROM her. If she even says “How are you?” On a call before she starts talking about herself, a crisis, or asking me to problem solve, I’m shocked. Bc H can’t accept that she has zero compassion and he still has some expectations for general social behavior, I have to text her “Hey, I didn’t hear you Thank Dad for moving your stuff to apt”. She replied “oh, I did”. (Which she had not) and I said “well he didn’t hear you and people liked to be thanked. This makes them more likely to help in the future”. Then she sent him a “thanks for help” text.

All that, to get a simple Thank you after a 4 hour move with a u-haul.  Life w/our pwBPD is beyond complex, exhausting and thankless. It is by far the biggest challenge of my life.

[livednlearned]

Ok getting my thoughts sorted out here, taking in what people are describing.

Linehan's "failure to assert one's self" is the backbone of this thread. It was an aha moment for me to understand something about BPD, and in particular about SD23. And then a second aha about what it means (for me) to model assertiveness (for her), a fragile, traumatized child who is now a dysfunctional adult, who uses passive and covert aggressions to get her needs met. Periodically she will use overt aggression.

In response, to avoid being flattened by passive, covert, overt aggressions I must respond assertively.

That can mean detaching with love, going gray rock (or Lollypop's being light as a fairy), radical acceptance -- are these ways of being assertive?  

I come from a dysfunctional home (BPD sibling) where asserting one's self was not encouraged and even openly discouraged (and at times punished) so for me failing to be assertive is repeating dysfunctional patterns.

SD23 is fragile and traumatized, she is the child. I am also working on skills, trying to figure out what's healthy. I struggle with the ways that my work-in-progress skills affect her.

I feel sometimes like there is a razor-thin line between me being assertive and me being aggressive. I don't always understand the difference between them. My assertive behavior can sometimes feel aggressive to me (e.g. saying no with no explanation can feel like I'm being "mean"). I often feel guilt when I am being assertive, although I've learned to reframe those feelings and work on letting them go (residue of dysfunctional family dynamics).

I’m assertive because if I’m not, then I’m not only enabling but also moving backwards in my goal for a healthier relationship. I’m assertive so we can get along better by preventing resentments to build.

The resentment building is what is knee capping me with SD23. If I am not assertive then I feel resentment. I may be reading things incorrectly but I believe that SD23 enjoys when she senses this resentment. My resentment is the most visceral way I tell whether I'm failing to be assertive.

Please expand more as you can about being assertive vs being direct. Assertive seems more like I’m getting a foot in the door somewhere. Being direct seems like I’m simply stating what’s on my mind without hesitancy.

I can be assertive without saying anything. Being direct means saying the truth, being blunt.

For example, at times SD23 crowds people's personal space. I can be assertive (how about sit at the counter while I cook, that's safer) or I can be direct (I feel uncomfortable when you stand this close).

Being direct implies being more blunt, more honest. Ideally, more honest about how I feel.

SD23 is extraordinarily anxious. Far as I can tell, it's bottomless. If H is working and I am  in the house, SD23 will become anxious about something and next thing I am enlisted to soothe, reassure, problem-solve, etc. Being assertive might be, "When this door is closed it means I'm working -- just like at your job, I am in my workspace and my priority is work. If there is a crisis or you have a problem you can't solve during my work hours, I am not available to help during these hours. I will have my headset on and will not be opening the door if it's knocked."

Being direct might be, "I notice you feel anxious when your dad is working (direct). What plans do you have to manage any strong feelings or anxieties that come up? We've talked before about how I will be working and won't be available."

The only feeling that I allow her to see is love/caring for her. I don't allow her to see any emotion that shows vulnerability on my part. She simply can't handle it

This must be very intense for you. I feel this way with SD23. Even when I allow her to see love/caring I feel an agenda, that she is fighting for something. It is either one-down or one-up for her, there is no in-between. She is either winning or losing.

I guess I would say that I do try true honesty, or maybe I should call it a different level of bluntness, at carefully chosen times. Sometimes I just think, how would I respond to a nonbpd who said that? And then, if the circumstances seem right, give her that response. I do it because that's how the world will respond to her for the rest of her life. But it's a little like medicine. I only give it in small, measured doses to start, hoping that she'll be able to handle it better and better.

It's hard.

I suppose in these relationships knowing when to be blunt or direct has a lot to do with the nuances of individual circumstances. The details do matter.

I may be curious about bluntness and directness because of resentments that have built up, and have to keep that in mind as I think about assertiveness.

Also, it's exhausting to always carefully chose words. Sometimes I feel exasperated and being blunt feels like the easy way.