Time to be friends?

[alittleawkward]

Apologies to those who have followed my other topics, I think here is a better place to start a new one.

For some context, I broke up with my BPDEX last year in July after she started tweeting a smear campaign about me whilst we were together, and started selling sexual content online. Since then I had monthly texts telling me how awful I am, and in December we went to the same gig where she was grinding on her previous, supposedly abusive ex in front of me. I have also had 3 months of weekly therapy and now see my therapist when I need to from time to time. (you can read them in more detail in my other topics: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=341686.msg13102646#msg13102646 https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=341350.msg13091632#msg13091632 )

After 8 months together and now 8 months apart, me and my ex have been texting each other on short text-chains on a fortnightly basis. The intense emotions of our interactions have dissolved, and it's really pleasant. I have pursued another person romantically, and am in talks with a second one to no avail, but I also appreciate that I am desiring a second chance at a shot with my EXwBPD.

This particular spur has come about since I read stop walking on eggshells and chatted with my aunt about my cousin who also has BPD. My understanding of the condition has become vast compared to that of when I broke up with her last year (where she wasn't diagnosed and I had literally never heard about it before). I miss my ex on a friendship level, I miss hanging out, I miss her family, and I miss our in-jokes and the stuff we used to get up to, I'm just not sure what to do next. I don't know if she still likes me. I don't know what to say or do. I'm kinda hoping that in saying something here, reason will shine through regarding the damage that can be caused by being romantic with someone with BPD, especially on a second time round and I'll be deterred, but I miss the chemistry we had.

She's stopped producing nude content and has gone to specialist therapy herself and is just being real nice. Should I ask for a call? Ask to meet up? We were LDR (saw each other 3 days a fortnight), so maybe propose we stay friends until that could maybe change?  Should I pick up the frequency of our texts? Add her back on social media? I know a lot of these answers are completely changeable situation to situation, but maybe some stories some people have and advice you may have will help me navigate what to do next. I am still in talks with someone else too, but to be honest, I would like to rekindle with my ex more, but more than anything, we are truly, finally, in a position to potentially get our friendship back. Delicate stuff now, right?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[pursuingJoy]

hi alittleawkward  Delicate, for sure. I think this is more about your understanding your own limits, what you want in life, and what you can manage. My understanding of BPD is that behaviors can change with intensive and ongoing treatment. Is that what's different this time around?

[once removed]

The intense emotions of our interactions have dissolved, and it's really pleasant.

what is it like, specifically?

is there any hint of romance? any sense that shed be open to getting together?

next moves, if any, are going to depend a lot upon getting a sense of where she is at with this.

[alittleawkward]

thanks for the responses guys

hi alittleawkward  Delicate, for sure. I think this is more about your understanding your own limits, what you want in life, and what you can manage. My understanding of BPD is that behaviors can change with intensive and ongoing treatment. Is that what's different this time around?

I'm not too sure I'm expecting any change at all to begin with. I think the fact that she has put herself in therapy is fab, and has stopped a lot of her self sabotaging acts is also good. I've bought a couple more books on BPD I intend to read in the next couple weeks, to expand my knowledge on how to treat and react different BPD situations, where as before I just took these situations as untriggered anxious crisis moments. Knowing a little more about what's going on in her head has already given me peace of mind.

what is it like, specifically?

is there any hint of romance? any sense that shed be open to getting together?

next moves, if any, are going to depend a lot upon getting a sense of where she is at with this.

At the moment, no hint of romance. The last time we chatted before now was just before Christmas, where she said she still had love for me, and admired me more than ever for feeling like I needed to leave her for the better of both of us. She said that 'if the universe bought us together again someday' she'd be happy. She has been talking about my hobbies and interests with other people too, which suggests she still wants to hold on to something. It's just friendly chat, checking in, asking how things are going, giving little updates like tattoos and piercings etc. all very light hearted.

We have both attempted to pursue other romantic relationships in the last few months with no luck on either side.

Her cat died last night and we got chatting again. The conversation ran into the early hours and has since dropped off. Next time we chat I intend to propose a meet up/phone call to properly catch up. She sounded a little down (as to be expected) but still ok. Unblocked on all social medias now. I'm leaving conversations a fortnight before I pick them back up again.

I think my biggest fear is my friends & families disapproval of her actions because of how much they affected me, but now I understand why they happened a littler better, I've forgiven them all. I hope they don't look down at me for wanting to be at least associated with her again, despite all the comments and remarks. 

[once removed]

okay.

so youre on good, warm terms, check in, have deep/emotional conversations, and there is still some level of attraction and nostalgia. and the rest of the dating world isnt working out right now for either of you. does that sound right?

definitely not a bad place to be if your goal is to get back together!

its hard to say though, how to take things from where they are now, to that end goal. most of the time when a relationship reconciles, there is a small window of time, and you mention its been several months.

but it happens! and if its gonna happen, youve got the right ingredients.

i tend to agree with you that the next step seems like it would be to get together in person. create some magic. show her the confident, upbeat guy she fell for and still feels for.

[alittleawkward]

Thanks for the advice OR. A couple weird things have happened.

First of all, one of the people I was seeing started texting me again, and we've been on another date where we just clicked so much better. Second of all, my exwbpd has got back in contact with her abusive ex once more. It's nice being in this position though because I feel completely free to do whatever I please without having a guilty conscience or being constrained in any way, and I feel no need to intervene with my exes life. Just embarrassed she's even entertaining this guy. again.

The next couple months are due to be hectic for me, regardless of current world affairs or what my love life status is. The girl I am dating now lives less than half a kilometre from me currently, where as my ex lives some 150km away. It has also come to light my ex has seen other people now since we split aside from her abusive ex. Don't know why I feel the need to say that here but it seems relevant.

I intend to call my exwbpd in the next fortnight or so just to check in. We haven't spoken since I last commented, and we haven't talked properly since before Christmas, so a catch up would be nice. I've also continued to read books about BPD, and the closure I have and understanding has really put my mind at ease with everything. Slowly accepting to just roll with the waves and see what happens now that a lot of the emotional scarring has healed.

[alittleawkward]

So the call happened a lot quicker than expected. With Covid-19 going about, I think she found a reason to reach out to me, which was pleasant as I was intending to reach out to her shortly too.

Before the texting went anywhere I suggested that we simply call and catch up.

And we did.
She told me she had been officially tested and diagnosed with BPD and has been doing CBT and is noticing how much more in control she is. She also told me she's been dating someone recently but they broke up in the last few days. We just kinda caught up like friends again - there was barely any romantic talk, and anything that was mentioned in that manner was just a bit hilarious. She also informed me that she has stopped producing sexual content and has cut her other ex out of her life (again... we'll see how long that lasts), but also that she doesn't think she would've went to therapy had I not broke up with her. I'm waiting to see if I'm going to receive a ricochet text but we left it all in a very good place. Once we hung up she sent me another apology for everything and said how grateful she was that I am still here for her (sometimes the words you so desperately wish to hear do come!). I'm going on a date with this more local person tomorrow and I actually feel a lot better about it now that the air between me and my exwbpd is a lot clearer.

I don't want to be naive but with the therapy and this new development of being able to talk to her on a much less intimate level has left me hopeful that we may be able to rebuild our friendship - romantic or not. I'm just going to maintain some distance and continue on with this period of my life before I take a proper look at where things can go. I'm in a good place and she sounds like she's in a better one too, and I don't want to change that.

[pursuingJoy]

I'm just going to maintain some distance and continue on with this period of my life before I take a proper look at where things can go. I'm in a good place and she sounds like she's in a better one too, and I don't want to change that.

I can see the wisdom in the choice you're making for now. Keep us posted, alittleawkward. 

[alittleawkward]

Just logging stuff for myself if no one else.

So my date went a bit bad. I think a few differences between me and this girl arose and we realised we want separate things. This is fine though, no strong feelings were built up and there's no tension there.

I have also been texting my exwbpd every day since the call. It's really pleasant still, no beef, and it's really interesting to hear her talk about her new found coping mechanisms and understanding of herself. We both ask questions and invest into the conversation, which is great.

Telling my friends that we're chatting again is a bit weird though. After informing them of some of the stuff my ex once said about them (having never met the majority of them), a lot of them are concerned with the idea I'm even contacting my ex again. I get it, just trying to work out how to deal with it all if this keeps up. I want to be her friend again, but am concerned of the cost.

[pursuingJoy]

I hear ya on logging stuff, I do that too. It sounds like you're considering a host of factors and making thoughtful decisions. Relationships usually take a measure of risk. I regret some of the risks I've taken, but others have led to amazing things.

Keep it up. We're here if you need to chat or update us.

pj

[once removed]

Telling my friends that we're chatting again is a bit weird though. After informing them of some of the stuff my ex once said about them (having never met the majority of them)

it is something to consider whether you get back together, or remain friends.

whatd you tell them?

[alittleawkward]

When she used to become upset and started painting me black, she'd also paint all my friends black whilst we were in conversation. Calling one close friend 'lower class' for a certain instagram post. Calling another 'a bum' because of their lifestyle choices. Another 'a bitch', and others 'bad influences who clearly didnt like me', all over people she had only met once, or never at all. 'I can't believe you associate yourself with such disgusting people'. I think it was a defence mechanism to strip me of everyone I hold in high regard so that my focus would just be on her.

When we split up, in a moment of emotional turmoil I told a lot of my friends the weight of the comments my ex had been saying about them; making me feel as though I surrounded myself with horrible people. Some were upset I didn't defend them, but most saw how manipulating these comments were and what toll it had taken on me hearing them every other day. The general consensus was 'stay away' and 'she needs to get help'. I have bought up the topic of recent developments to a few of these people, and 50% don't care anymore and are happy that we're talking again whilst the other 50% still show great concern and hurt in some of these comments and actions, and are adamant that talking to her again is just the start of a bad path.

[alittleawkward]

Just logging stuff for myself again -

So the every day chatting has continued with more frequent replies now. There have been some slightly more heated conversations but nothing with significant tension. Last night we were both bored so played a game but added a truth or dare element to it whilst chatting over the phone. We ended up on the call for 5 and a half hours. She slipped out of her 'normal' self a couple times when we started talking about our relationship in how she felt I took her for granted and was convinced that I would never find anyone so lenient with boundaries, and how she regretted being my first serious partner because it means I can't go back to her (?); she became quite condescending and defensive - but aside from this the vast majority of the call was cheery and nice. We both emphasised how happy we were to be in contact again and how significant we are to each other. It's incredible to hear how far she's come in self awareness.

Dares slowly took over and tweets ended up being made that caused a little fuss - some of her exes popped back into her private messages and some of my friends called me up on talking to her again. I think the general consensus is that they're concerned that she will hurt me again, which is a completely reasonable worry to have. I have really missed talking to her but the issues I had in the relationship are clear as day now.

She has an incredible ability to put herself in dramatic situations which she doesn't actually enjoy, and that stresses me out. Criticising her friends for doing things like this though puts her in a defensive headspace which is quite bitter to interact with. She's also quick to pick apart things you did and do that frustrate her, but when you reply even slightly critically the same defensive wall shoots up. Having said all that, her improvement in control of her emotions is incredibly noticeable and a massive step up from the emotional chaos she used to be. She's seemed to have worked out where a lot of her relationships stand which is cool too. I asked if she could have anything what would she have, and she simply said 'stability'. Which says a lot.

We've agreed when this quarantine ends to meet up and get coffee somewhere, and to play a similar game in a couple weeks. For now the daily chat continues...

[once removed]

The general consensus was 'stay away' and 'she needs to get help'.

well, of course it was 

whats done is done, but when you bring in a support system, they feel involved on a personal level. tell them that the person theyre supporting you over said bad things about them, and they really feel involved. its natural. if a close friend of mine got back with (or got close again with) someone who had spoken ill of me, id feel some level of betrayal, or judgment, or apathy.

see that for what it is, a mix of concern for your well being, and personal stuff. but youre going to need your support system...mend those relationships to the extent you can. hear them out.

Last night we were both bored so played a game but added a truth or dare element to it whilst chatting over the phone. We ended up on the call for 5 and a half hours. She slipped out of her 'normal' self a couple times when we started talking about our relationship in how she felt I took her for granted and was convinced that I would never find anyone so lenient with boundaries, and how she regretted being my first serious partner because it means I can't go back to her (?); she became quite condescending and defensive - but aside from this the vast majority of the call was cheery and nice. We both emphasised how happy we were to be in contact again and how significant we are to each other. It's incredible to hear how far she's come in self awareness.

Dares slowly took over and tweets ended up being made that caused a little fuss - some of her exes popped back into her private messages and some of my friends called me up on talking to her again.

likewise, see this situation for what it is.

twitter is known for it, but theres significant drama here. you have exes in the picture. you have wounded friends.

you have an ex who has some level of resentment over how things played out.

this could be on a fast track to more drama, and that drama, in the long run, will ultimately polarize things between you and her, even if it brings you closer together in the short run.

[alittleawkward]

you have an ex who has some level of resentment over how things played out.

this could be on a fast track to more drama, and that drama, in the long run, will ultimately polarize things between you and her, even if it brings you closer together in the short run.

Incredible foresight OR, I must say. We hadn't chatted since my last post here until today.

We had a phone call tonight which in typical us fashion ended up lasting 2 hours over a topic that should've lasted 10 minutes. She sent me a very suspicious text saying 'hey, i really need to chat with you' and after a flurry of tweets before hand it made me wonder if she had a problem with me. After picking up the phone, we ended up catching up and she asked if she did something wrong. I explained she had done nothing, and that I hadn't been avoiding her, just thought that there was nothing new to say to her. She then explained that she had feelings for me again. In reflection, the entire conversation after that topic was just her pushing me away. She explained she understood we wouldn't work as a couple again for a fair while, but then continued to explain that she wanted a boyfriend who would move mountain and seas for her. She explained that she liked every feature of me, but I nitpicked her. She said I would never understand her predicament of being the age she is in the life-stage she was in, and that even though we do click and get along and I am the 'only person she's ever truly loved' she will get over me and one day I will see that she was an amazing partner to me and I'll regret ever cutting her out of my life.

I felt by the end of the conversation the decision was made for me, just like when I first ended it with her (it was bought up that I originally ended the relationship, so I reminded her that it doesn't feel like a choice when your best friend and partner has suggested they kill themselves because of you). She explained that she couldn't be my friend because even the thought of being with another person sickened her, but that also she's scared she'll never love anyone else and she doesn't want to 'settle'.

 I just wanted to be her friend and see where it went, but the situation became all-or-nothing. I think with the collection of ongoing therapy, a worldwide pandemic, job uncertainty, long-distance and funny friendship dynamics, as well as these clear fundamental issues with our chemistry and history, the wisest decision has been to just give her the space she needs. I sent her one final text saying thanks for everything (a response to a text she sent afterwards) and I haven't felt a single ounce of emotion yet. Maybe I'm in shock. Maybe I'm over it. A part of me wants to wake up tomorrow and text her and ask if this was all a joke and how serious everything is. I'll probably just leave it. This is the calmest my head has been in a very long time. I kinda forgot about the crashes that have always followed communication with my ex. Well here it is.

[alittleawkward]

Sorry if this comes out like dribble, I'm just writing my thoughts as I go.
I'm still reflecting on our call last night, and I'm very confused by the situation. I was practically talked into telling her I never wanted to date her again and I never wished to speak to her again, neither of which are necessarily true.

I understand her viewpoint; she feels like she's waiting for me to come round to her again and I'm dangling her by a thread in saying 'maybe in the future', but the situation simply doesn't allow for us to make a practical relationship right now. One of those stale mate situations. I've watched her go out with and sleep with 5 people over the last 6 months, but she can't bare the thought of me doing that. I suppose it makes sense that if she can't see me do that then we don't talk, but to almost contractually say over the phone 'you will never go out with me again and we're not going to speak anymore' seems very extreme. Again, maybe a case of her just pushing me away?

The whole situation has got me a bit confused. I'm not emotional, surprisingly, in fact my anxious stomach has completely gone. There doesn't seem to be any underlying issue between us any more, just that she doesn't want to see me around because she can't bare to see me happy with someone else. Literally days before we were discussing when we'd get a coffee once covid-19 was done and which of her friends I should meet up with, and how both of us were happy we were talking as friends again.

Analysing her projection of herself to the world, over the last 9 months she has become everything I want in a partner objectively. She's pretty, wears the same clothes as me, has the same taste in music, dabbles in the same sort of spiritual things and substances, and has the same interests, has become more academic and less attention orientated, and has even excerpted my kinks at a few points (many of these traits she never displayed before). But beneath all this, she still maintains the ability to unapologetically rip apart herself and anyone close to her in a matter of seconds. Over the last 3 weeks I've heard no end about how much she dislikes her 'friends', how much she dislikes herself, and last night, how much she dislikes me. The drama and the flow of stories over the last 3 weeks has been overwhelming. It's frustrating, I understand because of BPD and her level of narcissism why she can't see me live my life without her, but at the same time, I'm really really struggling with the idea of letting my friend completely go. I don't intend to message her for a long time, but I'm sure at some point I'll find an excuse to. The bridge still isn't burnt for me. I will definitely maintain a distance so to not trigger her or interrupt her therapy any more than I already have, but she enriches my life and gets me on a level no one else ever has. Days ago she was saying how happy she was to have me in her life again and how she always wants me here on some level. A shame that comment has been retracted so quickly.

How does this all sound from an outsiders perspective? Is there anything obvious I'm missing?

[once removed]

She then explained that she had feelings for me again. In reflection, the entire conversation after that topic was just her pushing me away. She explained she understood we wouldn't work as a couple again for a fair while, but then continued to explain that she wanted a boyfriend who would move mountain and seas for her. She explained that she liked every feature of me, but I nitpicked her. She said I would never understand her predicament of being the age she is in the life-stage she was in, and that even though we do click and get along and I am the 'only person she's ever truly loved' she will get over me and one day I will see that she was an amazing partner to me and I'll regret ever cutting her out of my life.

I felt by the end of the conversation the decision was made for me
...
these clear fundamental issues with our chemistry and history, the wisest decision has been to just give her the space she needs. I sent her one final text saying thanks for everything (a response to a text she sent afterwards) and I haven't felt a single ounce of emotion yet.
...
I understand her viewpoint; she feels like she's waiting for me to come round to her again and I'm dangling her by a thread in saying 'maybe in the future', but the situation simply doesn't allow for us to make a practical relationship right now.

this is all predicated on the idea that you want to improve things and reconcile. i appreciate that that may not be.

when someone starts a shpeel with "i have feelings for you", it is a confession. when they follow it with "but", it is a protective barrier.

and the rest is all the back and forth they are legitimately struggling with.

the best thing you can do in these moments is not take it personally or feel a decision is being made for you. the best thing you can do is to listen (https://bpdfamily.com/content/listen-with-empathy), ask questions (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=273415.0), and if you have to, defer while you take it all in.

people with bpd traits are deathly afraid of being vulnerable. theyll do it (for a lot of them, its a learned way of connecting or attracting), and often times, theyll quickly back track. most of us have been there, in some way, shape or form. you put your heart on the line, but qualify it to keep your dignity.

you may not want to mess with all of that. thats fine. thats fair. its reasonable. but i wouldnt be so quick to conclude, or read into one thing or another. what she was trying to tell you was probably more complicated than she was able to get across.

what do you think?

[alittleawkward]

To be honest, I respect and understand her comments entirely. I've had this the last few times we made contact with each other - it was followed by a haze of confusion for a few days until enough time has passed so I can reflect and make sense of what was said.

The way I see it, I have no underlying issues with her anymore. Everything that I was hung up on has been explained. Whilst I'm upset that our friendship has to have a line drawn through it, if it means I can get that back in the future with less complications, so be it. If not, then at least I don't have this constant storm of drama happening beside me. For the first time since we split up I haven't felt an urge to check her social medias or chat with her friends. It's another weight off the shoulders. Another responsibility eased.

She said she won't be able to move on unless I gave her a clear conclusion, and in reflection I think I needed the same. It seems cruel to dangle her for the sake of time and distance because of something we're not even sure will happen, and I don't want to hold her as an emotional hostage. I know how painful that is. I was too busy fantasising about 'when we would be able to do this or that again' rather than living my life. I do think there is an element of abandonment here, but also on an undbpd level this sort of thing would give anyone closure. It feels like the book has been closed a little more, but I'm okay with it this time and aren't resisting anymore.

I had a very intense remunition the other day, but I think it was just me processing some of the last intimate memories I was holding onto. In talking to her and hearing her swing through her BPD traits I realised I really cannot mentally keep up with it all. I still love her and worry about her but I'm hoping this conversation, this change of mindset and this shift of perspective will let me do that whilst also comfortably getting on with my life without being emotional wounded by her actions. I'm not hurt by it the same way I have been every other time we've interacted. Maybe I've accepted that we both just have to move on?

I called up a couple of our mutual friends just to let them know of the situation and get any of the weight I felt off my chest. They said they totally get it and whilst it was a shame that this had to happen, it also makes sense. Maybe when I'm not in a position to trigger her or make her stall her therapy, when we're not living hundreds of miles away, when drama in our friendship group dies and when she's developed new coping mechanisms for her BPD we could start talking again, but I'm not going to hold out and wait for that anymore. I don't want to be disappointed again, and I don't want to let her down again. There's no point in us waiting around when in the moment, we don't work. And thats ok.

[once removed]

i think thats a reasonable and sober attitude.