Trial Separation - she broke No Contact

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hi all,

It's five weeks into my trial/therapeutic separation.  We had a couples session last week and it was so so.  I did say I was 51% still in the marriage, but still getting my head around what and how I would need to change to put up with her crazymaking.  I suppose I understand the idea of Radical Acceptance, but don't really get it.  After counselling, we had a chat at McDonalds for 20min.  That was mostly okay.  But she could see the gut punches rippling from my abdomen while I was talking.  That's not a good sign.  That fear is still happening for me. 

Later that evening, I had to get something from her house and she pretty much said she's going to start drinking and if I don't want to drink, that's my choice.  I didn't comment on the glass in front of her and her drinking, even though she knows I don't agree with it...and quite strongly. 

So, with NC, it's been quiet until today.

Today is the day I proposed to my dBPDw three years ago.  I know this because she broke No Contact and called me at 10:30pm to remind me.  Caught off guard, I couldn’t talk too loudly because I was upstairs and I didn’t want to wake my roommate.  She replayed how I got down on one knee and how it was for her.  I also had to ask her to repeat herself a few times because the phone reception here wasn’t great.

In her frustration in trying to get me to talk about it, she said “Oh what’s the use!” and hung up.  I didn’t call back.

A minute later she called back and tried to engage me again on the memory.  I suppose it came up in Facebook and she really wanted to talk about it.

Now we have a no contact rule, but on the topic of the proposal, I went with the flow and said, “Yes, and there was a table of two little old ladies behind us who were taking in all the proposal activities”  She laughed at that part.    Then she was saying how crazy it was two years ago we were madly in love and now look at us. 

I then said I had to find a place to talk.  She got a bit perturbed and asked where I was.  I explained I was upstairs, but my flatmate has already gone to sleep and I had to find somewhere I could talk.

Then she started grilling me about how I threatened her during the last counselling session.  I remember saying “Do you really want to go there?” in an intimidating tone and backed off when the counsellor pulled me up.  Then my wife started digging and peppering questions, "Did I remember that you threatened me?  Do you remember?  You THREATENED me!"  She was sounding very angry and hurt.  Way more hurt than what she was at McDonalds after the counselling session.  I found myself Justifying (oops.  No JADE) and then correcting what she thought I said during counselling. 

I was confused and asked, “Hang on.  You called me to talk about a wonderful memory, and now you’re grilling me on something which I’ve already acknowledged in the session and at McDonalds”.

She then told me that she spoke to my mom last Friday.  I thought "Uh oh".  My mom can get hyper-spiritual.  My mom told her that she would have to answer to God if she didn’t take me back.  I replied, “I would have to answer to God if I didn’t come back to you”.  So my wife is angry at that and decided to tell me.  I have no idea what my mom actually said to her, but I suppose I'll have to ask her to go No Contact as well.

Then I heard a slight slur in her voice.  And I remembered this pattern with her before and because someone on this forum described a similar situation.

I said, “I’m going to ask you a question you might not like”

“What?”

“Have you been drinking tonight?”

“Yes.  I’ve had a few”

“How much have you drunk?"

“I’ve had three glasses”.  Red wine.

So, if her typical full glasses of 250ml each, that’s pretty much a bottle.  And I would think a bit more than that, given the importance of the day.

I said, “I’m not going to talk to you if you’ve been drinking”

It took me a few more minutes to get off the phone.

She rang me back 5 times and I sent her to voicemail every time.  Even though we had another rule that said if she calls twice, then it’s an emergency.  She did not leave a voicemail.

--------------------------------

On the one hand, I'm happy that I was able to spot the pattern, my JADEing and put the boundary about not talking if she's drunk.  The extinction burst was amazing to see.  I hope she's okay.

On the other, I don't think the separation is going well for her.  She's started drinking and it adds to her dysregulation.  She's managed to not go into hospital/rehab so far, but she might be just trying to white knuckle things through herself.

I've been reading through the Success section getting a feel for what had to be done for marriages to work.  Personally, I've been eating better.  Trying to get into a rhythm on exercise.  Work is going better and I'm seeing my daughters more. 

I've got a list of things to talk about the next couples session.  From stories here, it seems like DBT and CBT for my dBPDw are important, in that order.  Even though she's done DBT before, it looks like she's "slid down" the ladder in the House of DBT.  Continued therapy for me is also part of it.  But I think I'll need that regardless of how the marriage goes.

For better or for worse, her childhood traumas that have been brought up by the recent workplace bullying are something that she's going to have to work on.  That's after she does some DBT.  From Rillian's post, the insight-focused therapy is very difficult if the tools for handling strong emotions aren't in place from DBT.
 It would have to be for herself. 

I find it hard to remember to suggest actions in terms of benefit for her, instead of the more selfish, reduce crazymaking and pain for me.

And collaborating with her psychiatrist and psychologists would seem to be crucial part of making it all work.  But her medical team have not really pushed the impact of alcohol on her recovery.  So I'm not sure what to do with that.

The trend in this forum and my own BPD support group thinks alcohol slows down the recovery process.

The part I'm still trying to get my head around is what kind of boundaries to put in place.  There's boundaries on how she expresses her abandonment fears, anger, drinking.  I suppose those only come with stepping in and trying some.

But can do I that and test a few while still in separation?  I'm not ready to "end" the separation yet.

And ultimately, I think I need to ask her to really take responsibility for her own recovery.  And not drinking might be a part of that.  I’m happy to work on my side.  But I’m very close to saying you can choose therapy without alcohol or divorce.

[Meridius]

Hi all,

It's five weeks into my trial/therapeutic separation.  We had a couples session last week and it was so so.  I did say I was 51% still in the marriage, but still getting my head around what and how I would need to change to put up with her crazymaking.  I suppose I understand the idea of Radical Acceptance, but don't really get it.  After counselling, we had a chat at McDonalds for 20min.  That was mostly okay.  But she could see the gut punches rippling from my abdomen while I was talking.  That's not a good sign.  That fear is still happening for me. 

Later that evening, I had to get something from her house and she pretty much said she's going to start drinking and if I don't want to drink, that's my choice.  I didn't comment on the glass in front of her and her drinking, even though she knows I don't agree with it...and quite strongly. 

So, with NC, it's been quiet until today.

Today is the day I proposed to my dBPDw three years ago.  I know this because she broke No Contact and called me at 10:30pm to remind me.  Caught off guard, I couldn’t talk too loudly because I was upstairs and I didn’t want to wake my roommate.  She replayed how I got down on one knee and how it was for her.  I also had to ask her to repeat herself a few times because the phone reception here wasn’t great.

In her frustration in trying to get me to talk about it, she said “Oh what’s the use!” and hung up.  I didn’t call back.

A minute later she called back and tried to engage me again on the memory.  I suppose it came up in Facebook and she really wanted to talk about it.

Now we have a no contact rule, but on the topic of the proposal, I went with the flow and said, “Yes, and there was a table of two little old ladies behind us who were taking in all the proposal activities”  She laughed at that part.    Then she was saying how crazy it was two years ago we were madly in love and now look at us. 

I then said I had to find a place to talk.  She got a bit perturbed and asked where I was.  I explained I was upstairs, but my flatmate has already gone to sleep and I had to find somewhere I could talk.

Then she started grilling me about how I threatened her during the last counselling session.  I remember saying “Do you really want to go there?” in an intimidating tone and backed off when the counsellor pulled me up.  Then my wife started digging and peppering questions, "Did I remember that you threatened me?  Do you remember?  You THREATENED me!"  She was sounding very angry and hurt.  Way more hurt than what she was at McDonalds after the counselling session.  I found myself Justifying (oops.  No JADE) and then correcting what she thought I said during counselling. 

I was confused and asked, “Hang on.  You called me to talk about a wonderful memory, and now you’re grilling me on something which I’ve already acknowledged in the session and at McDonalds”.

She then told me that she spoke to my mom last Friday.  I thought "Uh oh".  My mom can get hyper-spiritual.  My mom told her that she would have to answer to God if she didn’t take me back.  I replied, “I would have to answer to God if I didn’t come back to you”.  So my wife is angry at that and decided to tell me.  I have no idea what my mom actually said to her, but I suppose I'll have to ask her to go No Contact as well.

Then I heard a slight slur in her voice.  And I remembered this pattern with her before and because someone on this forum described a similar situation.

I said, “I’m going to ask you a question you might not like”

“What?”

“Have you been drinking tonight?”

“Yes.  I’ve had a few”

“How much have you drunk?"

“I’ve had three glasses”.  Red wine.

So, if her typical full glasses of 250ml each, that’s pretty much a bottle.  And I would think a bit more than that, given the importance of the day.

I said, “I’m not going to talk to you if you’ve been drinking”

It took me a few more minutes to get off the phone.

She rang me back 5 times and I sent her to voicemail every time.  Even though we had another rule that said if she calls twice, then it’s an emergency.  She did not leave a voicemail.

--------------------------------

On the one hand, I'm happy that I was able to spot the pattern, my JADEing and put the boundary about not talking if she's drunk.  The extinction burst was amazing to see.  I hope she's okay.

On the other, I don't think the separation is going well for her.  She's started drinking and it adds to her dysregulation.  She's managed to not go into hospital/rehab so far, but she might be just trying to white knuckle things through herself.

I've been reading through the Success section getting a feel for what had to be done for marriages to work.  Personally, I've been eating better.  Trying to get into a rhythm on exercise.  Work is going better and I'm seeing my daughters more. 

I've got a list of things to talk about the next couples session.  From stories here, it seems like DBT and CBT for my dBPDw are important, in that order.  Even though she's done DBT before, it looks like she's "slid down" the ladder in the House of DBT.  Continued therapy for me is also part of it.  But I think I'll need that regardless of how the marriage goes.

For better or for worse, her childhood traumas that have been brought up by the recent workplace bullying are something that she's going to have to work on.  That's after she does some DBT.  From Rillian's post, the insight-focused therapy is very difficult if the tools for handling strong emotions aren't in place from DBT.
 It would have to be for herself. 

I find it hard to remember to suggest actions in terms of benefit for her, instead of the more selfish, reduce crazymaking and pain for me.

And collaborating with her psychiatrist and psychologists would seem to be crucial part of making it all work.  But her medical team have not really pushed the impact of alcohol on her recovery.  So I'm not sure what to do with that.

The trend in this forum and my own BPD support group thinks alcohol slows down the recovery process.

The part I'm still trying to get my head around is what kind of boundaries to put in place.  There's boundaries on how she expresses her abandonment fears, anger, drinking.  I suppose those only come with stepping in and trying some.

But can do I that and test a few while still in separation?  I'm not ready to "end" the separation yet.

And ultimately, I think I need to ask her to really take responsibility for her own recovery.  And not drinking might be a part of that.  I’m happy to work on my side.  But I’m very close to saying you can choose therapy without alcohol or divorce.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Meridius]

So, this morning, I checked up on dBPDw because I didn't know what happened after she rang five times.

She texted that she couldn't remember what she said last night and asked me to tell her.

The TL;DR version I emailed was

Hi <name>,

You asked me help you remember what happened last night.

In summary, last night you drunk dialed me at 10:30pm.  You started with a happy topic, then flipped to a bunch of very unhappy topics.  I realised you were not sober and calmly said I would not talk to you while drunk.  I checked up on you this morning via text.

M

It was good to set the boundary last night.  It kept me sane today.

[Rev]

So, this morning, I checked up on dBPDw because I didn't know what happened after she rang five times.

She texted that she couldn't remember what she said last night and asked me to tell her.

The TL;DR version I emailed was

Hi <name>,

You asked me help you remember what happened last night.

In summary, last night you drunk dialed me at 10:30pm.  You started with a happy topic, then flipped to a bunch of very unhappy topics.  I realised you were not sober and calmly said I would not talk to you while drunk.  I checked up on you this morning via text.

M

It was good to set the boundary last night.  It kept me sane today.

Wow!  Good for you.

I am wondering - as I think about my own situation - do you see someone new emerging in her out of his?  Or are you seeing a more intense version of the old her?

Rev

[Meridius]

I am wondering - as I think about my own situation - do you see someone new emerging in her out of his?  Or are you seeing a more intense version of the old her?

Hi Rev,

My gut feel answer is a a bit of the same and a bit more intense version of the old her.

The drinking is about the same, but at the top end of the scale.  One to one and a half bottles of wine per day.

She also cut me off from the joint CC because I commented about the amount of money she was spending on mobile phone games to distract herself.  She decided to call my mom and decided she didn't like the advice my mom gave her.  The funny thing is it's the same advice that used to bother the cr*p out of me when I was younger...before I did my inner work.

The desperate phone call later at night is something she's done.

It's all very dysregulated behaviour.  But I don't get to the see the trigger, just the results of it.

If I was trying to do "detach with love", I sometimes feel like it's too much "detach" and not enough "love".

How does this compare to your situation?

M

[Rev]

Hi Rev,

My gut feel answer is a a bit of the same and a bit more intense version of the old her.

The drinking is about the same, but at the top end of the scale.  One to one and a half bottles of wine per day.

She also cut me off from the joint CC because I commented about the amount of money she was spending on mobile phone games to distract herself.  She decided to call my mom and decided she didn't like the advice my mom gave her.  The funny thing is it's the same advice that used to bother the cr*p out of me when I was younger...before I did my inner work.

The desperate phone call later at night is something she's done.

It's all very dysregulated behaviour.  But I don't get to the see the trigger, just the results of it.

If I was trying to do "detach with love", I sometimes feel like it's too much "detach" and not enough "love".

How does this compare to your situation?

M

Well - my situation is rather different because I never did the trial separation thing - three attempts at joint counselling failed - many unfulfilled promises.   So when the real her showed up about six months before we split - I just kept walking.

My situation and my inner work - why so, so co-dependent?  Why did I supress soo many red flags. And no - you never get to see the triggers, even when you are sleeping right next to them

The whole veil came down the minute she found her biological brother (she's adopted) and they started an emotional affair - there are rampant rumours that it was and is still more.  They she just got scary weird.

We've been apart 9 months now and I just saw her at an all day conference (we work for the same organization) and this time - I could see the real her. Not the fake her that she showed me - but the real her that she presents to the public to cover up the really dysregulated her. And I at least got the sense that I've come a long way.

A very tough day for me - I have a cease and desist written by my lawyer because she showed up unannounced at my place of work with personal effects back in Oct - 4 Months after we split and a month after the separation agreement was signed. She had the brother in tow. Anyway, I digress. Tough day for me - but I got through it and the effects of the abuse are finally starting to fall away.

Thanks for sharing. I really wish you all the best in figuring this out. Everybody deserves a chance to change and to grow into a better version of themselves. They just have to take it.

Rev

[once removed]

but still getting my head around
...
I suppose I understand the idea of Radical Acceptance, but don't really get it.

Radical Acceptance is getting your head around something, in a nutshell.

it is the embodiment of the adage "it is what it is". what "it is" may or may not change, and Radical Acceptance doesnt preclude hope or working for that, necessarily, but it means facing reality as it is right now.

I didn't comment on the glass in front of her and her drinking, even though she knows I don't agree with it...and quite strongly.  

Radical Acceptance means the two of you are at cross purposes over this, she has a problem, and overcoming it is a real uphill battle. almost certainly one that requires professional help. its past the point of your approval or disapproval.

Today is the day I proposed to my dBPDw three years ago.  I know this because she broke No Contact and called me at 10:30pm to remind me.

did you initiate "No Contact"?

i ask for a few reasons:

"no contact" is typically a means of detaching from a relationship that is over. its to give you the space to achieve that goal.

if you are still invested in the hope that your marriage can be saved, then what led you to deciding on that course of action is pretty important.

is it because there simply is no hope on any level of constructive conversation at any time? if so, to what extent if any, is it tied into your counseling sessions? for example, has it been laid out that "its just not constructive for us to speak without our counselor guiding us through it right now"?

otherwise, is it realistic or counter intuitive to your goal? if you have couples counseling, is there any such thing as "no contact"?

Then she started grilling me about how I threatened her during the last counselling session.  I remember saying “Do you really want to go there?” in an intimidating tone and backed off when the counsellor pulled me up.  Then my wife started digging and peppering questions, "Did I remember that you threatened me?  Do you remember?  You THREATENED me!"  She was sounding very angry and hurt.  Way more hurt than what she was at McDonalds after the counselling session.  I found myself Justifying (oops.  No JADE) and then correcting what she thought I said during counselling.  

heres the thing...

it may be that for the most part, communication between the two of you isnt or cant be constructive. it clearly wasnt in these circumstances.

the two of you both have deep, long standing, and ongoing resentments, and this lit them on fire, and it found the two of you trying to score points.

if you want absolute zero contact but through your counselor, or if you want "contact, but only when i can gauge that its constructive" or if you want "contact but only when you havent been drinking", its likely going to fall on you to stick to that.

I suppose I'll have to ask her to go No Contact as well.

only if you want to close the door a little further.

Radical Acceptance: in your resentment, and frankly, no doubt, in your love, and desolation, youre going at your wife, trying to make her see your point of view and get her   together when she is mentally and physically falling apart, and in no place, with no capability to achieve that.

The trend in this forum and my own BPD support group thinks alcohol slows down the recovery process.

make no mistake. substance abuse, even if related, takes precedent over personality issues, and makes everything drastically worse. it is your biggest issue.

The part I'm still trying to get my head around is what kind of boundaries to put in place.  There's boundaries on how she expresses her abandonment fears, anger, drinking.  I suppose those only come with stepping in and trying some.

But can do I that and test a few while still in separation?  I'm not ready to "end" the separation yet.

your boundaries are blurry. that may come from both a misunderstanding of what boundaries are intended to be, as well as what youre ultimately trying to achieve.

you are trying to get her to see the light through withdrawing and punitive measures.

statistically speaking, the odds of her recovery, and the recovery of your marriage fares far better with realistic expectations and positive reinforcement.

And ultimately, I think I need to ask her to really take responsibility for her own recovery.  And not drinking might be a part of that.  I’m happy to work on my side.  But I’m very close to saying you can choose therapy without alcohol or divorce.

its a valid position, and i want to stress that.

but what i want to stress more than that is that its an ultimatum, and one you should only make if you are prepared to walk away. because it amounts to "get your   together or im done", and its not realistic to assume that your wife is in a position to do that.

if the goal is still saving this or assessing your limitations i think you could benefit tremendously from reading this: https://bpdfamily.com/content/support-child-therapy

[Meridius]

It’s been a long time since my last post and I’m not sure if things are getting better for her, or me, or whether I’m just imagining it.  Being separated, I only get short views on her progress (if that).

I’ve been separated from my dBPDw for almost 2 1/2 months.  I’ve been working on myself, in therapy and AlAnon groups.  I think I’m getting better perspective on how I’m feeling about the relationship, practicing setting firm boundaries, my PTSD-type symptoms, and detaching from her harmful self-coping mechanisms.  I’m also spending more time with my daughters  (well as much as I can with the current environment) and focusing on work(secure, thankfully).  This forum helps.  One day at a time.

However, I’m still unwilling to “come home”.

When I moved out on Feb 1, my W didn’t take it very well.  The abandonment fears kicked in hard.  Self care like eating and showering were really bad.  House care were bad.   Every day, she managed to feed the pets, watched Netflix and spent $00s on smart phone games.  She was drinking regularly, almost a bottle of red a day.  She did, however, manage to get herself to her Monday rehab centre day program and see her medical team weekly.

She’s still talking about being a house mum for an NGO that provides a halfway house for kids and teens who are wards of the state before they get put into foster care.  It’s a passion for her, working with kids.  A friend is the CEO of the NGO.  She says she’ll get lots of support, but I’m not sure my BPDw is really ready for it.  And then…another crisis.

About a month ago, she had her second major panic attack since I left.  It happened in her psychologist's foyer and was admitted to rehab centre the next day.  She was there for a three week stay.  Healthy food.  Daily group sessions.  Psycho-ed on CBT, ACT and DBT concepts.  Standard cycle.  Halfway through I got called to take care of the dogs, because her friend couldn’t any more.  I stayed at “her” place for 2 weeks.  I’m not the tidiest guy, but even I couldn’t handle the filth.  I cleaned it while I was there, including cleaning the carpet.

Refreshingly, her stay has been better.  She said so, and I think it was better because of a diagram she showed me about two things:  1) trauma is inner and primary.  BPD, PTSD. anxiety, etc. are outer and secondary.  But she needs to handle the outside secondaries first before the primary.  2) Responsibility and a “choice point” for actions after trigger events.  In particular, it also demonstrated how she would skirt the choice point to a negative values action(ie. OD, drinking), without thinking, instead of choosing a positive one (eg. meditation, other distraction).  Quietly, I was thinking “FINALLY!  She might understand responsibility”.  She also understands how that has affected almost everything action she has taken over the past few years.  I think the lesson clicked for her this time because she recently complained to me before that I didn’t want to come back to her because of the illness.  I said “No, it’s not the illness.  It’s the behaviours”.  Maybe that helped her really hear the discussion about choice point. 

Unfortunately for me, I’m not sure if she will actually be able to put it into practice.  I am skeptical.  I don’t trust her.  I know there is deep seated trauma that even her family is in denial about.  I don’t know if I can be the “calm cool household” while she slowly practices how to manage her responses.  There has been a tremendous amount of damage along the way for me.  I have exhausted my reserves and recently learned that my body gives me clues.

I needed to understand my anxiety “gut punch” spasms with my therapist.  So I did a test.  If I meditate and think “I’m not going back to her”, my mind is quiet and body rests.  If I think “I’m going back to her”, I can’t even complete an inhale and exhale and I get hit with an anxiety “gut punch” spasm.  These spasms have been around for almost two years now.   I tried a few ways of meditation and speaking “I’m going back" instead of thinking it, and over SIX TIMES, the anxiety spasm was reliably there.  I discussed this with my Therapist and I’m clear that fear and sadness are getting in the way of reconnecting.  I now have my own PTSD.

My BPDw says her medical team are always asking how things are going with her and I and if I’m coming back.  It was close to her discharge date, and she told me that she needed security and stability in her life and not knowing if I was going to come back was not helping.  She demanded that I give her an answer.  If I didn’t give her an answer, she was going to file for divorce.  I told her I needed two weeks.

So a few days later, instead of being discharged, she was kicked out.  She was kicked out because when she was on a 4hr home leave the weekend before, by herself, she had a glass of wine.  Verboten on the hospital rules.  And then she told the hospital.  I bit my tongue when she told me, but I was rolling my eyes.

I also know she had two bottles of red in the first three days she was home. 

A week later (last Sunday) she pressed me again for an answer.  So I told her I wasn’t ready, and that I felt pressured.  But I was meeting my T in a few days, so I would talk to her then.  I did and told her “The fear and sadness is getting in the way of me reconnecting.  So right now, I can’t come back.  And I haven’t seen enough examples of you following your doctor’s orders just yet”.  She took it as a “not ever coming back” and burst into tears.

Long story short, we happened to have a couples session two days later, and we got it to the point of “I’m not ready to come back right now” and aside from the drinking, I’ll let her know what else is in the way and/or what we need to do.

So, I’m sensing she’s at the point where I could have a real conversation about what would need to happen for me and for her, if we were going to make a go of this.  OR, I know you said be careful about ultimatums.  But I’m pretty clear that she’s unable to control her drinking. 

And my layperson assessment is she’ll never tease out the deep trauma unless she’s willing to give that up.  Or at best, it will happen a lot more slowly.  If she doesn’t tease out the trauma, it will continue to impact every interaction she has, and my marriage will be a living hell. 

What kind of agreements should I make?  How many?  What kind of boundaries?  I read a lot of the stories from the Success section and I see that therapy, strong guidelines are part of it.  But what is that first conversation like?  Her ability to focus is still very fragile and she can’t handle too many big things.  The Tools guidelines on "Supporting a Child in Therapy for Borderline Personality Disorder” are really tough to read and absorb. 

Is it realistic for one person to do all that if her family isn’t supportive and my family is overseas?  Are my circumstances sufficient to carry me through?

And how to I bring in my teenage daughters, and  attend to with their own life struggles.  I have a theory that whenever I want to take care of my daughters, she sees it as abandonment, and gets envious.

If it wasn’t for her realising the “choice point’ chat and responsibility, I think I would have said “I’m done”.  What is a realistic expectation for her using that?  Drinking?  Or not drinking?

And to be honest, even if someone told me that statistically, the odds are good if a pwBPD gets to that understanding.  That she might make it if I stuck to it for a few years.  One resentment might undo that.  She told me before I proposed that her first marriage ended because her ex had an affair.  That's not all of it.  She had ODs previously, he left for that and she didn't tell me.  I feel deeply misled.

*sigh*

[Rev]

Ah... the whole what should "we work on" questions about getting into couples therapy.

Such a thorny issue. One that frankly is really, really tough because you almost need to hit the reset button on a relationship that has so much baggage. It takes a skilled therapist to do this. I have been working with people for twenty years and have never found the nack to it.

For me, I set a list with my own therapist about what my wants and needs were, totally independent of hers. And then I waited to see how much effort she was willing to put into doing the same. It was pretty clear that after two months, it was zero. I kept moving. THAT was so HARD because I felt at the time like a I was giving up.  Men, as it turns out, often fall into the trap that we have greater responsibility in staying because to be a man means being steady and living up to a code (I just finished an MA thesis paper).

Are you familiar with the Gottman Institute?  There might be some good stuff in there for you. Very rational.

Good luck.

Rev

[once removed]

OR, I know you said be careful about ultimatums.  But I’m pretty clear that she’s unable to control her drinking. 

and you should be.

ultimatums are, at times, necessary in life. when you make them, you need to be certain that you are prepared to walk away if they arent fulfilled. theres a fine line between "i need this, or i cant continue", and "do this and ill stay with you". especially when it involves a desperate person with a limited capacity.

What kind of agreements should I make?  How many?  What kind of boundaries?  I read a lot of the stories from the Success section and I see that therapy, strong guidelines are part of it.  But what is that first conversation like?  Her ability to focus is still very fragile and she can’t handle too many big things.

For me, I set a list with my own therapist about what my wants and needs were, totally independent of hers.

i think Rev's is good advice here. develop a plan, in conjunction with your therapist. work out the details with the therapist, and with feedback here. far better for us to suggest how things may play out than what exactly to do.

The Tools guidelines on "Supporting a Child in Therapy for Borderline Personality Disorder” are really tough to read and absorb. 

they are. read them broadly, globally. obviously you arent her father, you are her romantic partner. the point is that you play a very pivotal role...not a guarantee of success or failure, but you can play a pivotal role in either.

Is it realistic for one person to do all that if her family isn’t supportive and my family is overseas?  Are my circumstances sufficient to carry me through?

no. but the role implied is not being the one that will cure or save her; the one whom her outcome depends on. it is, to the extent you can, to be a rock, a source of strength. that doesnt preclude ultimatums. it doesnt preclude strong boundaries. it informs them.

And how to I bring in my teenage daughters, and  attend to with their own life struggles.  I have a theory that whenever I want to take care of my daughters, she sees it as abandonment, and gets envious.

If it wasn’t for her realising the “choice point’ chat and responsibility, I think I would have said “I’m done”.  What is a realistic expectation for her using that?  Drinking?  Or not drinking?

lets say that drinking was going to be a struggle for the rest of your relationship. maybe it would improve, maybe it wouldnt, maybe it would get worse, maybe it would be manageable.

thats what loving an addict looks like. its always a struggle...sobriety is a struggle, a daily thing. and the support that a loved one(s) plays looks very similar.

these (all of the different scenarios, and your own limits) are things you will need to decide, and there isnt, necessarily, a right or wrong. i would assess that...i would assess what she has or hasnt done so far...and i would make a huge effort to inform my decision.

[Meridius]

Such a thorny issue. One that frankly is really, really tough because you almost need to hit the reset button on a relationship that has so much baggage.

Thanks Rev for the input.

A reset button...gosh...that would be nice if that existed.   But the hardest part of radical acceptance is...just letting it sink in that it's just there.  It is what's so.  It's when I'm with it, and not raging, but quiet, then I've really accepted it.  I think.

[Meridius]

and you should be.

ultimatums are, at times, necessary in life. when you make them, you need to be certain that you are prepared to walk away if they arent fulfilled. theres a fine line between "i need this, or i cant continue", and "do this and ill stay with you". especially when it involves a desperate person with a limited capacity.

i think Rev's is good advice here. develop a plan, in conjunction with your therapist. work out the details with the therapist, and with feedback here. far better for us to suggest how things may play out than what exactly to do.

they are. read them broadly, globally. obviously you arent her father, you are her romantic partner. the point is that you play a very pivotal role...not a guarantee of success or failure, but you can play a pivotal role in either.

no. but the role implied is not being the one that will cure or save her; the one whom her outcome depends on. it is, to the extent you can, to be a rock, a source of strength. that doesnt preclude ultimatums. it doesnt preclude strong boundaries. it informs them.

And how to I bring in my teenage daughters, and  attend to with their own life struggles.  I have a theory that whenever I want to take care of my daughters, she sees it as abandonment, and gets envious.

lets say that drinking was going to be a struggle for the rest of your relationship. maybe it would improve, maybe it wouldnt, maybe it would get worse, maybe it would be manageable.

thats what loving an addict looks like. its always a struggle...sobriety is a struggle, a daily thing. and the support that a loved one(s) plays looks very similar.

these (all of the different scenarios, and your own limits) are things you will need to decide, and there isnt, necessarily, a right or wrong. i would assess that...i would assess what she has or hasnt done so far...and i would make a huge effort to inform my decision.

Thanks OR

[Meridius]

It's been an tumultuous week.  I had a good meeting with BPDw on Monday and a terrible one on Thursday.  Sorry for the long post.  I'd appreciate comments on where my boundaries are good, or crap and what to say.

Last Monday, I got together with my BPDw for lunch.  Earlier that morning, I set my attitude with a reading that reminded me that if I find myself in a situation where I don't know what to do, try responding with kindness.  It's a good thing I did.  I was there to talk about what needed to change if we were going to stay together, with a side chat on comparing values.

It was overall okay, with few twists thrown in.  I was at her place (our place) from 12pm-5pm, so it was not rushed.  As soon as I walked in, she had a funny look on her face.  She had just come from seeing her GP and said "My doctor just told me that I'm never getting better".

Well…that put a whole different curve on everything for me right there.  All my talking points assumed we would work on a path to get better.  Now she was walking around the room upset saying things like “Well, you’re never coming back because I’m never going to get better”.  But she was not hysterical about it and I couldn’t see any wine bottles open.  So I stuck to the game plan.

“Shall we get lunch?”  That was the plan.  Then I asked, “And what did she mean by ‘you’re never getting better’?  Better from what?"  

That was not part of the plan

The answer tumbled out, but jumbled.  It was from the work cover insurer's psychiatric report.  Or from her GP.  Or her GP disagreeing with something about the psychiatric report, which got sent to her GP.  And to her psychologist and seemingly her psychiatrist as well.  Anyway, it turns out she didn’t know, was too shocked at what she thought she heard to ask questions, and basically left even more confused than when she arrived.

We bought takeaway lunch, where she told me why she stopped going to Alcoholics Anonymous.  I didn't judge, just listened.  And then a bit more about her visit to her GP.  We got home and talked about values.  I had written up my values/what was important to me because I had a sense that I needed a foundation to work from.  I told her beforehand and she'd sent a link to a online survey for values, which I did.  But my survey results were very different from my list written before she sent me the survey link.

I read recently that values provide you emotional protection.  I had an inkling that my values around drinking and drugs protected me from a larger range of things than just crazy behaviour.  I had to think about why I held that one, and other so tightly.

I read off some of my values and she started analysing and critiquing them that they weren’t really values, but just expressions of values.  She had a list of what values were supposed to be from a psychology text book and notes from all her hospital psycho-education sessions.  I just listened, a bit amazed at the totally disconnect.  I knew every single thing I wrote was bred-to-the-bone for me.  Call them what you will, they are my core beliefs, values, guiding principles.  If they don’t fit some textbook definition, well, so be it.  I knew what they meant for me.  And I didn’t feel a need to defend them.  But seeing as I was trying to find commonality, I let it go.

When she saw my value statement "not using drugs and alcohol to self medicate", I explained I've held that value that since I was 12 y.o.  She then said she didn't like it being lectured about not drinking.  And that if I told her what to do about that, she would ignore me.  She's like this most of the time.

Drinking was also one of the things I wanted to change in the relationship, but I didn't start with that one.  

I started with an easy one.  Throwing a softball together because we did it once while dating and I told her I liked it, but we never did it again.  She told me about how much her father did that with her, but I remember asking twice later, and she never agreed.  Hmmmm.    Trauma related to her dad?

Then I said I wanted more of "a healthy relationship between two healthy adults".  She just nodded in agreement.  No comment.  For me, it's about Scott Peck's two interdependent people.  It's what I've been hoping for in a marriage.

We somehow looped back to her doctor's comments.  We decided to go back to the medical centre and fortunately, we were able to see her GP.  She clarified the comment to mean the insurer's independent medical examiner commented he thought my wife's anxiety and depression was unlikely to go away.  Not never go away...and specific to anxiety and depression.  Now...because they're paying for a workplace bullying and harrassment case, they only pay for anxiety and depression...and the panic disorder.  Not BPD or PTSD.

So I asked her doctor "So what about the other things?  What can we do about that?"  Her doctor leaned forward and said, "You really need to stop drinking.  I mean cut it out entirely so you can get better".  My wife squirmed.  I chimed in that she had been thrown out of the hospital for drinking.  The same stay where she learned about “choice point”.  The doctor had not been told this in the consult earlier that morning, so my wife had to tell her what happened.  Then my wife said she wasn’t too keen on not drinking.  Her doctor said gently, “Well you could have half a glass, but you know what you’re like.  If you have a bit, you can’t stop.”

I listened quietly, but was jumping up and down inside.  On the way to the car, she referred to her psychiatrist’s instructions on only drinking with other people and not alone.  And suggested we could see each other once a week and I could bring a bottle and she wouldn’t drink during the week.  I bantered a few ideas back, but by the next morning, I decided I was doing this.  It was like watching “Mom said no, but dad said yes".  She’s just looking for a way out to drink.

We went home, walked the dogs, talked a bit more and I left.  I said it was a nice time and we made non specific plans to meet again later that week to talk more.

On Wednesday, my wife called me up excited that she had crossed the bridge.  It has been a massive fear for her as it triggers her workplace bullying and harassment event from 2017.  She was in the wrong lane and headed towards her old workplace.  She managed it, got back across and called me to tell me, and told her psychologist.

That night she did not sleep well, even though she had not drunk anything since Sunday.  She took her meds (Seroquel), but to no avail.

She gave me a heads up before I came over later for dinner.  I was worried about meeting up if she was tired.  Should I have tried to cut it short?  Perhaps.  In hindsight yes.

She wanted to talk before I started cooking while she “still had a working brain”.  We talked a more about values and more about my session with my therapist.  We talked about zoom teleconferencing.  I mentioned my AlAnon groups all use Zoom now and most people dial in, except some ladies because they’re at home with their alcoholic husbands and didn’t want them to hear.  I don’t know why I mentioned that, it was just something about who could join and who couldn’t.

“So would you do that?”, she asked.  I was caught off guard.  Honesty is the best policy.  

“Yeah, I don’t think I’d be comfortable even in a separate room attending a video meeting and sharing if you were in the house”

But it went downhill too fast for me to catch it.

“Do you think I’m an alcoholic?”

“I don’t really want to answer that question."

“I think I have a right to know”

“No you don’t”

Oops.

It went really badly after that.

Hurt.  Rejection.  Feeling denied what she wanted to know.  Tears.  Hysterics.  

I wish I had said, “I think what you think about that question is way more important that what I think about that question”  I did manage to get that out, but as she was upset, I doubt she heard it.

I also am doubting now whether she really heard her GP’s directions, as she wasn’t even willing to say them when I asked her if she remembered.  She just interpreted me asking about  it as my pestering and nagging her.

We somehow got into arguing about the “big thing” that we both had against each other.  Without getting into details.  Before this, she managed to take the good intention I had around a terrible family event last Christmas, and twist my actions into some horrible trigger.  The big surprise was even four months after, now she’s claiming that I did it as revenge for the thing she did.  False accusations. I gently said no, and I think she believed me.  But this is not the first time or second time  I’ve seen her take a small hurt/event, then twist and magnify it into a crime against humanity.  How do you draw boundaries against this?  What’s the frigging point if this keeps happening?

By this point, my gut punches are starting to filter through slowly.  Today, I learned the term “Secondary Traumatic Stress”, and that’s what the spasms are.

I managed to leave after comforting her, but at some cost to my emotional well being.  I was there from 6pm-9:30pm.

And I’m trying to do this while managing her work cover paperwork, fielding stupid questions from ambitious and unsympathetic case managers and arrange repairs for her washing machine.  At least she thanked me for cooking dinner.

And now, I have to move out of my place because my friend’s son needs to quit his lease due to coronavirus.  I’m not ready to go back, although my wife said I could sleep in the separate room.  That’s too close for comfort and the things that were happening that made me leave are still happening.

no. but the role implied is not being the one that will cure or save her; the one whom her outcome depends on. it is, to the extent you can, to be a rock, a source of strength. that doesnt preclude ultimatums. it doesnt preclude strong boundaries. it informs them.

I keep re-reading OR’s and Rev’s comments and I’m willing to take action and see about moving things forward, but at the same time asking the very real question, “Is this just tip of the iceberg?”

I’m expecting that as she comes off alcohol more and more, she’ll get worse before she gets better.  That is, if she gets better.  And the whole process of unpacking the trauma inside the anxiety, panic, PTSD is, I think, fraught with danger.  Like managing a country through coronavirus.

I’d prefer handling the re-opening the country after coronavirus, rather than step into this trauma.  This is for professionals.  

That’s hard enough.  And I’m not sure if we can solve the “big problem” mentioned earlier at the same time.  That on it’s own is enough to kill a marriage.  It’s like the other issues are letting us hide from it.  Ugh..one day at a time.  

The alcohol might not be the cause of the the trauma, but it’s a blocker and a lid on something.  Something big.  If it opens, I fear being caught in crossfire.  Projection.  Blaming.  More false accusations.

Do I just talk to her on a good day and tell her that if I hear crap from her, she might need to know I’m not necessarily going to believe things she says if I think it’s bulls**t?  What words to use?  If the emotional dysregulation happens, it could happen anywhere.  And is she tries to manage a situation, and is not skilled at communicating, others may not respond as well as her professional team, and then we have a “situation”.  I’m expecting it could happen anywhere, anytime.

Still, I have my own daughters to protect, my work and my sanity to think about.  I’m tired and out of reserves.  My daughters are from my first marriage, but I'm now seeing them less with all this chaos.

Another gut punch.

Wants and needs list.  I need to do that with my T.

For people resources, I have four or five people, clergy, wise friends of hers, a few alanon folks, sober AA types and a recovering BPD person.  

And you folks in this forum.  Thanks for the light.

*deep breath*

[once removed]

I’m expecting that as she comes off alcohol more and more, she’ll get worse before she gets better.  That is, if she gets better. 

these are what i call "realistic expectations".

shes at a serious crossroads.

her husband has walked away from her. she has heard (not necessarily what was said) that she will never be better. or, that she wont be better without stopping drinking. upon that news she asked her husband if he thinks shes a hopeless alcoholic and he wasnt sure how to answer.

and remember, throughout all of this, youre an alcoholic, where reality itself is too much.

this is a lot like what rock bottom looks like.

you are both overwhelmed by it, by your wifes prospects, and who wouldnt be?

shes not ready to give up the drinking entirely, although it sounds like shes trying. i wouldnt be surprised at all if she cut it out, and then increased in the near future. i dont know that that necessarily speaks to her long term trajectory at all, just to near term, realistic expectations.

this, frankly, is make or break time. i think you are very reasonable to expect things to get worse before they better, i would just keep in check what my idea of "better over time" looks like. she can get better. you can play an enormous role in that. but she has to want it, and the extent of that just may not be at all clear in the short term. people with bpd traits self sabotage.

[Meridius]

I had a few good chat with family and friends this weekend about my BPDw.  I told them pretty much everything I said above.  One of the issues is I have move out of the place where I'm doing my trial separation.  The guy's son needs a place to live because his flatmates have lost their jobs from coronavirus.

So I had some wise advice from my dad.  It's a bit on the spiritual side, so I'll try to explain it.

In back part of the Bible, there's a few passages about how "if you pray for someone, then God will give them life".  My dad said this promise was about life for me.  And I had to claim the promise for myself.   His suggestion was to claim God's promise of life for me, move back in with my wife, and see what God does.

It had a certain simplicity that was compelling.

I said to my dad, so I claim this for me, okay.  Do I claim it for my wife?  No, he said, she has to claim it for herself.  And what about me claiming it for "us"?  Nope, he said, just you.

Hmmm.  We talked about where I would sleep and housework.  He asked if there was a spare room and that I should clean what I can, but be prepared to live with the filth.  He wasn't saying "go back to your marriage".  He was saying do this small thing, and see what God does.

I've been thinking about boundaries, and although it sounds small, it's like it's actually laying out the biggest boundary first.  Then any other smaller boundaries sit inside it.  Everyone's advice above still applies, but the biggest thing is to learn to distinguish what is my stuff with God and what's her stuff with God.  And don't get in the way.

M

[once removed]

your dad is wise 

reading between the lines, it sounds a lot like he is erring on the side of "value your relationship, your wife, your marriage. show investment in it. give her some level of reassurance".

its a perspective i tend to agree with, broadly, acknowledging that this is very, very complicated, and you dont want to do anything blindly, and you dont want to give her false hope.

does that sound about right?

[Meridius]

your dad is wise 

reading between the lines, it sounds a lot like he is erring on the side of "value your relationship, your wife, your marriage. show investment in it. give her some level of reassurance".

its a perspective i tend to agree with, broadly, acknowledging that this is very, very complicated, and you dont want to do anything blindly, and you dont want to give her false hope.

does that sound about right?

Yeah...kinda.

Well, the one thing I've learned about my dad over the years is never to read between the lines.  He's erring on the side of my relationship with God.  Everything else falls into place relative to that.  If he says not to claim a promise for my BPDw, it's because that's her action to take, not mine.  It's a BOUNDARY.  And it's probably a boundary to help keep me sane.

So having moved in the there's been a few good things and few really bad things that have happened.

She's actually learning stuff from her therapist and day program psycho-education sessions.  She knows she's got some core trauma issues.  She knows the depression, anxiety, panic and ptsd is all secondary to the trauma...BUT that she needs to get a grip on that  before being able to deal with the trauma.  We also had a good chat about values and what our respective values are.  She was a bit preachy about my list of values and how they weren't really "values".  I had a list of things that are important to me about life, people and behaviours.  She had a textbook list of categories and values and some comments about them.

There's one thing she did last year that she apologised for...finally.  It was like pulling teeth.  It's the one thing she's done that I have told only two people about it.

Last year, while we were in bed, I was talking about my concerns about my parents health and how many years I thought they had to live.  They're okay, but I can see their decline and I was really worried.  It was an incredibly vulnerable moment.  I've worked hard to have a good relationship with my folks.   And while I was talking, her hand drifted across my chest and fondled my private parts.  She giggled while she did it.

WTF?

I jumped out of bed shocked.  I said it was so rude.  I was dumbfounded by it.  Like, who does that when someone is talking about their parents imminent passing?

When I asked her why she did that, she said she didn't know.

When I asked again a few months later, she claimed she must have been drinking.  But no, I always remember if i smell alcohol on her breath at night and for whatever reason, that wasn't that night.

She said she was really sorry and wished she hadn't.   But that wasn't good enough.  I didn't want it to happen again, and her lack of consistency on answers was really annoying.

A few months later, I asked again, and she said she did it because she wanted her husband to make love to her.  She wanted sex. 

Y'know...I believe that answer.  It's a horrible reason, but if she's not trying to make herself look good, then it's probably true.  The problem is...it's probably true.  So selfish.

So we finally circled back to this event because the thing I realised was my values about honouring parents were so different to hers.  That "inappropriate touching" just made it just so stark.  It wasn't just insensitive to me.  She didn't listen.  She was being selfish.  It was disrespectful to my parents in so many bad ways.  It's so bad that I'm not telling my parents she did that.  I tell them much of what she does, but not that.

Anyway, she apologised.  But I had to teach her everything I value about good apologies (no excuses), taking responsibility, how to not show contempt if I want a time out.  It was crazy, but she finally got it.  I got a durable, clean apology.

Two days later, she had a bad session at day program and disassociated.

We had a big chat that night about what to do next after the apology.  She thought the apology would take care of everything and I had to gently tell her...no, there's still things we need to work on.  I mentioned my T said the next thing would be to work on building trust. 

She asked me what I had in mind.  Now it was late on Friday night and I was exhausted from the intense discussions about us already.  So I asked if we could talk about building trust the next day.  She said yes.

The next morning, we talked about trust.  I brought up two areas to work on.  But she didn't have any ideas on what to work on.  I thought that was odd that she wanted to work on it, but then brought nothing to the table.

Later on that evening, I found out why.  She confessed she had a small OD on painkillers(panadol) on Friday night.  Not many, just 16 tablets.  But still, enough to worry about.  I stayed really calm.  Not much I can do about it.  But I was still really angry.  I just asked how she was.  She talked more about the events during the day on Friday.

I avoided talking about heavy topics the next two days.  I tried to keep things light.  On Sunday, she did tell me how she had big issues with memory.  And how that was a problem for her. 

And then on Tuesday this week, she was at home, while I was at work.  She opened my computer to check a network setting, saw my journal open and then started to read my personal journal entries. 

She read three months worth of my journals.  She didn't even do it in one sitting.  She spread it out over four hours.  She didn't even stop after a little bit, but just kept going and reading.

Then she told me when she got home.  She knew it as a betrayal.  But she saw benefits because I journal really clearly and she now understands my pain, and the pain of those around her for what's she's been doing.  She even complimented me on how descriptive it was.  Um...okay.  And then she said she'd understand if I wanted to end it.

I'm gobsmack.  Of all the mind-numbing, gut wrenching, unbe-effing-lievably selfish things she could do.  And while we were supposedly talking about building trust.

I've spent the last two days in shock.  Just quietly wondering who I should tell this to.  I've never had a betrayal like this.  I've been journalling since I was 17 and no-one has ever read them.

So only today, am I seeing that she lacks healthy boundaries.

I'm thinking to end the marriage.   It's cross "the line" that I couldn't really describe.  But now I can.  And if I had to say it gently, it would be like "I think I can only really be friends with you.  That's the best I can do now"

ARG!

[GaGrl]

That's a clear and concise update of what has happened and where you stand.

One aspect to ponder as you make a decision is that you agreed that re-establishing trust was the next step. Yet she had no ideas on how to go about this.

Then she spends four hours reading your journal.

[KeepingHope]

I am not condoning what she did.  I am curious though if any of her behaviors have changed after reading your journal?  Did the knowledge and understanding she gained help her in any way or is she still doing the same things?

[Meridius]

I am not condoning what she did.  I am curious though if any of her behaviors have changed after reading your journal?  Did the knowledge and understanding she gained help her in any way or is she still doing the same things?

Well, that’s an interesting question.   She said could better understand the pain I felt at things she did.  She understands why her drinking hurt me so much.  She stopped drinking weeks before after her doctor told her she needed to stop to get better from...all her PTSD, depression, anxiety.  And hasn’t touched a drop in 4 weeks now.  She has, however, ODed recently.  That was the same day when she was so stressed she wanted to drink and I told her if she did, I would move out. She said she purposely took her shoes off so she wouldn’t be tempted to walk out to the car to drive to a liquor store.  However, paracetamol (Tylenol) was her undoing.    

She now knows that her sister told me to “run” when her sister didn’t believe her husband indecently assaulted my wife.  Her sister called my wife a “liar” and to a point, I can see why she would say that, except for her husband assaulting my wife.  I have reasons to believe he did it based on his reactions.  

The two things I really noticed after she read was she vacuumed the house for the first time in over two years and cooked dinner for the first time in months.   

Is that what it’s going take to pull out of her depression?  She needs to read my journals?

She did say a few days prior that she realized her memory fails her.  She also learned recently that she can she is hypersensitive and can react to a firm tone of voice as if it was the most violent screaming.  She only learned that on Friday at her hospital day program.  It wasn’t even directed at her.  It was directed to the girl sitting beside her and some guys in the program were trying to pound some sense into this lady they thought was doing a dumb thing.  It was bullying, but my wife reacted by disassociating right there.   The psychologist was trying to stop the guys and didn’t notice right away my wife was “zoned out” for a minute or two.  My wife said they were yelling.  The psychologist told her later on no yelling happened.  

It doesn’t make sense to lose my sense of self to the point where she needs to use my memories.  

I can’t believe I just wrote that.  

[Meridius]

That's a clear and concise update of what has happened and where you stand.

One aspect to ponder as you make a decision is that you agreed that re-establishing trust was the next step. Yet she had no ideas on how to go about this.

Then she spends four hours reading your journal.

The only thing I can trust now is that she will break my trust. 

[Meridius]

Did the knowledge and understanding she gained help her in any way or is she still doing the same things?

She did say she now understood “taking responsibility” because she read what it meant and how it hurt me.  Oookkkaayyy...so when I told her before how it hurt, she didn’t believe me?   She has to break into my journal to read something she believes?

I read that BPDs lack executive control, and I can almost accept it as the way it is.  But as a part of a workable relationship...that doesn’t work for me. 

Like, the damage is done.  I really can’t be intimate with her anymore.  Physically or emotionally.  I really care about her, but that’s gonna start taking a much different form.  I need to take care of myself.  I’ve spent so much time and emotional energy taking my reactions down from explosive anger to measured calm just so she wouldn’t be triggered. 

[Rev]

[quote author=Meridius link=topic=343460.msg13109813#msg13109813 date=1589043065z

Like, the damage is done.  I really can’t be intimate with her anymore.  Physically or emotionally.  I really care about her, but that’s gonna start taking a much different form.  I need to take care of myself.  I’ve spent so much time and emotional energy taking my reactions down from explosive anger to measured calm just so she wouldn’t be triggered. 
[/quote]

So good friend, been a while since I wrote to you because I've just been reading...  This paragraph - this one right here - is all about your internal boundaries that will lay a foundation for so many things in your life. You know, at least it appears by your words anyway, that the next person in need of needing protection from being triggered is you. We all have our trigger points - that's just part of being a human being - part of how we are wired.

And so I want to support you in affirming how you must - MUST - heed these words to yourself.  As you write, it's not really optional now, nor can it even be deferred. Like the proverbial air mask that drops down in a plane, you put yours on first before your loved one so that you have the oxygen to care for them.

Stay strong and true.

Rev

[once removed]

Is that what it’s going take to pull out of her depression?  She needs to read my journals?

reading someones journal is an enormous violation of trust. no bones about it.

to be a fly on the wall, though.

imagine if your wife had initiated this separation, and as clear as day as she had made the reasons why, you didnt understand. you wanted to, but you didnt.

and there are all her deepest thoughts, right in front of you. by the way, in this scenario, you have a pretty hard time controlling your impulses.

im not trying to defend your wife so much as to help you understand why she did what she did, and to see it from her perspective. its a selfish one, again, no bones about it, and, at the end of the day, she wanted a better understanding of where you are coming from.

So having moved in the there's been a few good things and few really bad things that have happened.

i think it bears repeating what i have said about realistic expectations.

your wife is pretty far up the spectrum.

by your own account, pretty significant strides have been made (i dont want to overstate them; they are relatively short term, and thats not realistic either). by all accounts, really, she is trying to better understand you, better understand where she has failed, and where her addictions have damaged the relationship.

Meridius, its worth examining your expectations. this may be less about her trajectory, and whether the damage done is simply too great, and whether or not you are emotionally done.

what do you think?

[Meridius]

You know, at least it appears by your words anyway, that the next person in need of needing protection from being triggered is you.

And so I want to support you in affirming how you must - MUST - heed these words to yourself.  As you write, it's not really optional now, nor can it even be deferred.

YES!

[Meridius]

reading someones journal is an enormous violation of trust. no bones about it.

to be a fly on the wall, though.

imagine if your wife had initiated this separation, and as clear as day as she had made the reasons why, you didnt understand. you wanted to, but you didnt.

and there are all her deepest thoughts, right in front of you. by the way, in this scenario, you have a pretty hard time controlling your impulses.

im not trying to defend your wife so much as to help you understand why she did what she did, and to see it from her perspective. its a selfish one, again, no bones about it, and, at the end of the day, she wanted a better understanding of where you are coming from.

i think it bears repeating what i have said about realistic expectations.

your wife is pretty far up the spectrum.

by your own account, pretty significant strides have been made (i dont want to overstate them; they are relatively short term, and thats not realistic either). by all accounts, really, she is trying to better understand you, better understand where she has failed, and where her addictions have damaged the relationship.

Meridius, its worth examining your expectations. this may be less about her trajectory, and whether the damage done is simply too great, and whether or not you are emotionally done.

what do you think?

Hey OR.  Yeah...I can separate the two things: violation of my trust and her need to understand what she’s done.  It’s somewhat reassuring to hear her say “I understand why drinking hurts you now” knowing that she really means it.  But at what cost?   

I’ve changed all my passwords.  It took two days to even open my computer again.  I’ve ruled off on that day and started a blank section.  Trust is shot.  Again. 

She thinks what she got reading is a good thing more than she’s shamed by the betrayal. 

My dad commented today that my mom was unwilling to understand him and that caused years of marriage pain.  They’re much better now and have softened over the years. But  I asked him whether she was “unwilling” or “unable”?   I think my BPDw is unable. 

Again... expectations.  New data point. 

She has, truth be told made great strides.  She’s been sober 4 weeks.  She’s being a bit more regulated during psych sessions.  She’s painting more.

But the anxiety is still strong.  She gets panic attacks if people walk behind her chair.  She disassociated over someone getting angry and yelling at the girl beside her.  It wasn’t even her.   And then was told after by the counsellor running the session that he wasn’t yelling.   And she had the OD as well.  She still unable to concentrate and read anything. 

Except my journals.  So what do you do with someone you don’t trust?   Well, don’t trust ‘em, and get on with my life. 

And yes, I’m emotionally done.  Oh...am I soo done.  And pretty calm about it today.  It’s what it is. 

I think moving out as another separation is the next step.  But just when.  She still has physical medical things to take care of. We’re waiting for the “living assist” assessment to have someone come over and help.  There’s a new medical assessment for the work cover insurer which she’s asked for support on.  That I can attend.  I just can’t do anything more than “friends”.

Like REV said the boundaries are key.  I’m trying to limit how much I hear about her daily psychological adventures.  I’ also aware how easily I get sucked into her negative self-narrative.  I need to maintain the boundary even while apart. 

How do I best introduce the break up?

[Meridius]

Hey OR.  Yeah...I can separate the two things: violation of my trust and her need to understand what she’s done.  It’s somewhat reassuring to hear her say “I understand why drinking hurts you now” knowing that she really means it.  But at what cost?   

I’ve changed all my passwords.  It took two days to even open my computer again.  I’ve ruled off on that day and started a blank section.  Trust is shot.  Again. 

She thinks what she got reading is a good thing more than she’s shamed by the betrayal. 

My dad commented today that my mom was unwilling to understand him and that caused years of marriage pain.  They’re much better now and have softened over the years. But  I asked him whether she was “unwilling” or “unable”?   I think my BPDw is unable. 

Again... expectations.  New data point. 

She has, truth be told made great strides.  She’s been sober 4 weeks.  She’s being a bit more regulated during psych sessions.  She’s painting more.

But the anxiety is still strong.  She gets panic attacks if people walk behind her chair.  She disassociated over someone getting angry and yelling at the girl beside her.  It wasn’t even her.   And then was told after by the counsellor running the session that he wasn’t yelling.   And she had the OD as well.  She still unable to concentrate and read anything. 

Except my journals.  So what do you do with someone you don’t trust?   Well, don’t trust ‘em, and get on with my life. 

And yes, I’m emotionally done.  Oh...am I soo done.  And pretty calm about it today.  It’s what it is.  But the gut punches over the last few nights...ugh. 

I think moving out as another separation is the next step.  But just when.  She still has physical medical things to take care of. We’re waiting for the “living assist” assessment to have someone come over and help.  There’s a new medical assessment for the work cover insurer which she’s asked for support on.  That I can attend.  I just can’t do anything more than “friends”.

Like REV said the boundaries are key.  I’m trying to limit how much I hear about her daily psychological adventures.  I’ also aware how easily I get sucked into her negative self-narrative.  I need to maintain the boundary even while apart. 

How do I best introduce the break up?

[Rev]

Like REV said the boundaries are key.  I’m trying to limit how much I hear about her daily psychological adventures.  I’ also aware how easily I get sucked into her negative self-narrative.  I need to maintain the boundary even while apart. 

How do I best introduce the break up?

Ok - so - wow... yeah ... how do you introduce the breakup.. ... um... so ... wow ... yeah...tough question.

I'm humming and hawing like this to prove a point. There's no easy answer to this one, because the sense of timing will almost never be right. On one level, she already knows that this coming because generally speaking pwBPD don't lack sensitivity to having their own needs met. In fact, (right?), the issue is generally a question of too much sensitivity.

So in a weird way, that kind've let's you off a hook in a sense.

So here is a framework that I'd like to suggest for you.

1) Whatever you decide to do, do a dry one with someone who knows you well so that you will get a good sense if you are not being authentic to who you are.

2) Keep it as brief and to the point as possible - this would be true of any breakup - a little like letting an employee go or cutting a player from a sports team.

3) Make sure that whatever you do, you are in a safe place both mentally and physically.

4) In the end, make sure that your core needs are met - a break up is hard enough under any circumstances is hard - the emotions in this case will be ratcheted up.

5) So of the things that you actually say and do may be counter intuitive what you would do otherwise. In my case, for example, I continually put of meetings, didn't answer email or texts, talked in a monotone voice, kept things really short and to the point. This behavior is TOTALLY not normal for me - but I needed to that to be true to myself - that she would hear that I wanted a clean, airtight break from her that was legally binding.  Now that's me. Maybe there are things for you that will play out differently. I am just suggesting that this MAY be a possibility for you.

6) Above all, and this to is part of any breakup, do not "be nice" to "not hurt her feelings".  Be kind, be true, be polite - but tell her the truth. Everyone deserves that.

7) Finally, setting up an intentional time if you can find it, would be best - as in "can we please talk later today". Because this window will likely shift alot, be ready with the whole thing ahead of time and then watch for the spot.

Hope this all helps.

Good luck.

Rev

[GaGrl]

Think about the immediate aftermath of telling her.

Where will you go?

Where will she go?

Who will be available to her?

Can you flag her medical providers?

Will you be able to give her "next steps"? What do you anticipate comes next?

[Meridius]

Well, short version is I told her after reading my journals, the best I could be is friends.  That I felt gutted.  I thought it was a mind numbingly selfish thing to do. Then pissed her off on one thing by calling her out about her drinking.  Enough so  that she decided to get out.  So she moved out, and fortunately found quality social housing that will accept her worker compensation payments as income.

Two days before the move, my 14 yo daughter from my first marriage helped her sort out her clothes.  She’d gained a lot of weight, so a lot went to charity.  But not before my daughter got to keep some choice pieces. 

When the day to move came I helped her get into her new place.  Gladly.  Then at the end got take away dinner for us and we ate it at her new place, surrounded by boxes.

So...she’s out.   I’ve glossed over a lot of the drama that I copped en route to getting her out. Some comical. Some surreal.  I am so relieved.  And sleeping so much better now.  
 

[Rev]

Well, short version is I told her after reading my journals, the best I could be is friends.  That I felt gutted.  I thought it was a mind numbingly selfish thing to do. Then pissed her off on one thing by calling her out about her drinking.  Enough so  that she decided to get out.  So she moved out, and fortunately found quality social housing that will accept her worker compensation payments as income.

Two days before the move, my 14 yo daughter from my first marriage helped her sort out her clothes.  She’d gained a lot of weight, so a lot went to charity.  But not before my daughter got to keep some choice pieces. 

When the day to move came I helped her get into her new place.  Gladly.  Then at the end got take away dinner for us and we ate it at her new place, surrounded by boxes.

So...she’s out.   I’ve glossed over a lot of the drama that I copped en route to getting her out. Some comical. Some surreal.  I am so relieved.  And sleeping so much better now.  
 

Blessings on the "first day" of the rest of your life.  If you are sleeping better, that is the sure sign.

Rev.