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Author Topic: Dealing with a Psych who is aiding uBPDw in Parental Alienation  (Read 483 times)
Wilkinson
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« on: March 18, 2020, 09:44:11 AM »

My uBPDw was able to find a psychologist that she seemed to have wrapped around her finger.  He felt when there was abuse in the relationship, that the relationship was what needed fixing.  He said, he does not like to use the term abuse because it gives the other person license to not do anything to fix the relationship.  So, after I had pointed out how my wife was emotionally and physically abusive, his counseling centered around me doing my part to improve the relationship and as the relationship improved, the abuse would start to go away.  So when I had a mentor who was helping me, she felt threatened by him and complained to the psychologist that he’s damaging our relationship, the psychologist told me to get rid of him because it’s not good for my relationship.

So, he helped her feel validated that she doesn’t have a problem, that it is me that is the problem and if I can just stop the behaviors that cause her to fly off the handle, than things will improve.  Well, things got worse, I moved out in July, we filed for divorce.  Since then she is doing some extreme things under parental alienation.  She has filed two, false DCFS charges against me.  She kept the kids away from me for 80 days.  She convinced the GAL I needed supervised visitation and for three months I only saw my kids for 2-4 hours a week in public places with supervisors present.  She had managed to get the kids to think I’m the devil.  I’ve had a good relationship with my kids prior to my marriage going South.  However, the kids are actively projecting my wife’s anger.

So back to the psychologist.  He still sees me as the problem.  After marriage counseling failed, my wife started taking the kids to see him for counseling about the divorce.  However, it really seems like she is taking the kids to project her anger at him and use him as an “expert” to use against me in custody. The kids complain about me and he seems to be blind to the alienation, even though he has testified in court as an expert witness on it in other cases.  The GAL and one DCFS investigator I know of can see the alienation.  The kids complain about little things and he takes that as evidence that I’m not doing a good job as a parent.  For example, I took the kids to a minor league baseball game over the summer.  My daughter complained to him that she didn’t like baseball.  Well I have several kids.  We have gone to games as a family before. A group I am a part of had a family day at the game.  So it made sense.  I also took the kids to a trampoline park because one of my supervisors said that’s what the kids wanted to do.  My oldest complained to him that he didn’t want to go.  Again, trying to find an activity that all of them are interested in when they are being groomed to not like me, is an impossible task and he seems to think that is something that could be expected.  In all honesty I can’t figure out why he’s so blind to what is going on.  If you are thinking that someone can’t be that stupid and I’m probably just blind to my own faults as a parent, I wouldn’t blame you.  I seem to be drowning in a level of crazy that I myself can’t seem to believe is real.

So, here’s the question I have.  I am supposed to see him tomorrow.  I don’t want to go.  I am supposed to start having counseling sessions with my kids now, but not with him. I want new counselors and the court to be able to see that not only is my wife abusing the kids with full-on parental alienation, but she is using this guy to do it.  I feel if I go to new counselors and just complain about him and shout “Parental Alienation” it will turn people off.  I need to prove repeated behavior patterns.  I’m trying to think of questions to ask this guy that I can pass along to new counselors to help them find the truth on their own?  I’ve seen this guy twice over three months.  The last time I saw him he told me the same things about my failings as a parent and his examples were the same ones from three months ago, which were all examples from last summer. 

Any suggestions would be helpful.
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kells76
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« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2020, 10:05:35 AM »

Wilkinson, just dropping in really quickly to let you know we're here. I'll be thinking about your question some more today and will post as I have time.

Am VERY glad to hear this:

Excerpt
The GAL and one DCFS investigator I know of can see the alienation.

and this:

Excerpt
I feel if I go to new counselors and just complain about him and shout “Parental Alienation” it will turn people off.
<-- this is absolutely a great mindset to have as you go into this meeting.

OK, lots to think about here, and you are really, really on the right track with your "question-based" mindset for tomorrow -- that this meeting won't be about "making the counselor see that W is alienating" but rather using some thoughtful questions to perhaps put the counselor in a "double bind" about who you really are.

I remember reading somewhere once that in a conversation/discussion, the person asking the questions -- not the person making statements or "proving" things -- is the one really holding the power.

Plan to be back with more when I can.
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GaGrl
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« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2020, 11:00:52 AM »

At what level do you want to keep the questions -- high level? Detailed?

What is your current visitation schedule?

Are you divorced yet? Is all this temporary?
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"...what's past is prologue; what to come,
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Wilkinson
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« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2020, 12:03:59 PM »

At what level do you want to keep the questions -- high level? Detailed?
Either.
What is your current visitation schedule?
I see them twice a week, no over nights, all under supervision.  As of right now myself, my lawyer, and I think the GAL believes that the supervision is more to protect me than it is to protect my kids.
Are you divorced yet? Is all this temporary?
Yes this is all temporary.  Going through a very contentious divorce.

There are three tools, that I’m aware of to aid in diagnosing parental alienation
*The 8 manifestations of parental alienation
*Attachment disorder check sheet from pathogenic parenting by Craig Childress
*The five factor model for parental alienation

I was going to read over those diagnostic tools and look for stuff from that list that he would have seen.  Kind of ask things like, so what are their opinions of us?  Do they have anything bad to say about their mother or anything good to say about me?  Finding one parent as all good and the other as all bad is one of the things in the 8 manifestations.

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kells76
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« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2020, 12:26:10 PM »

I think you've mentioned it before, but remind me, who does the supervision? And what "vibe" do you get from that person about what they think about your relationship with your kids?

Curious because then it could start to be a larger group of professionals having your back: the GAL, your L, the DCFS guy, and (maybe?) visitation supervisor. Could build up to something very important down the road.

OK, questions to ask, continued:

A really great "arm lock" question that Craig Childress has discussed (as you may have already read) is the "I'm confused... question".

It goes like this: the other person is making assertions for a while. "You do this, you don't do that, you always X, you never Y." Something like that. You listen for a while. Eventually there will likely be some type of dissonance or non-agreement in the assertions. Then, you put forward: "I'm confused... You think I shouldn't do Z with the kids, and you also suggested that if I didn't do Z, I'm a bad father. Help me understand which one you mean."

This is Childress's "jiu-jitsu arm lock" or what DH & my counselor terms the "double bind". With the kids' mom, she would always harp on and on about "we need to just listen to their voices" (because, surprise, the kids when with her NEVER wanted to be with DH). Mom: "The kids told me they don't want to go on the trip with you. We need to truly listen to them." Mom trained herself to only do what the kids said they wanted, which was really what Mom wanted.

So, eventually, SD14 started thinking for herself a TINY bit more, and has recently wanted to spend extra weeknights with DH. Mom put herself in a double bind: she now HAS to "listen to their voices" (in a way) because that is how she defined her parenting of the kids over the years -- only "doing what they want". So Mom hasn't fought SD14 coming over more.

OK, that is all in relationship to kids and other parents, but I suspect it can work OK when dealing with professionals, as long as you keep your cool. Maybe bring a notebook to jot down some assertions the C makes? If any questions about it, a neutral/helpful response could be "It's really important to me to understand your point of view" or something.

So, I'd recommend lots of listening (and notetaking if you can), looking for opportunities for the "I'm confused..." intro, being the question asker, being OK with uncomfortable silence and not taking on the responsibility to fill it, and looking for "jiu jitsu" question moments.

Here for you...

kells76
« Last Edit: March 18, 2020, 12:35:18 PM by kells76 » Logged
Wilkinson
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« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2020, 12:43:40 PM »

I think you've mentioned it before, but remind me, who does the supervision? And what "vibe" do you get from that person about what they think about your relationship with your kids?
One supervisor is a counselor who wants to see a good relationship between me and the kids.  I think, he thinks I’m a decent guy.  Just recently, members of my family have been approved to supervise me.

Thanks for the help.
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worriedStepmom
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« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2020, 12:55:37 PM »

I'm glad the GAL now seems to understand some of the problem, and it has to help that DCFS is now on your side!

Questions I might ask:

1) What kinds of issues are you working with each child to handle or resolve?  (boundaries?  grief? anger?)

2) How much of the issues or trauma the children are experiencing is related to post-separation versus pre-separation events?  Do you spend any time talking with each child about their life before separation?

3) What specific actions do you think I need to take to better parent the children as a group?
3a) What specific actions do you think I need to take to be a better parent to child A? (ask for each child - each child should have different needs)

4) What do you think I am doing well at in regards to parenting the children? (ask individually for each child)

5) Do you think the supervised visitation is in the children's best interest?
5a) What would you want to see before you would recommend that supervision be lifted?  [I'm very interested as to whether he'd want to see any changes in your parenting, or just in the children's perception of it]

6) Do you see any signs of parental alienation?
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ForeverDad
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You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2020, 02:53:02 PM »

What is often recommended here is that you have a counselor, Ex has a counselor and the kids have their own counselor(s) too.  This may help reduce the risk of one parent controlling the family's entire mental health scenario.  (I've used the word counselor here, therapist is a more intense description.)  A psychologist ought to have sufficient training and experience to beware of a manipulative parent.  Is that psychologist assigned by the court?  Can you have your own if a replacement isn't assigned?

It sounds like the psychologist is doing the task of a Custody Evaluator who digs in-depth into the family relationships.  Does the court recognize and trust him as a CE?

As for the meet tomorrow, some questions or comments could be:
  • Is this complaint documented or instead more like emotionally compelling bickering?
  • In the grand scheme of things, do these complaints really amount to much, such as limiting me to supervised status for so long despite no substantive abuse, neglect or endangerment?
  • Shouldn't you be a bit cautious seeing me as the problem when you've only met me once or twice?
  • Before this came to a divorce there was no legal intervention sought.  How do you know all this is not drummed up by my spouse because we're in the midst of a divorce?
« Last Edit: March 18, 2020, 03:03:39 PM by ForeverDad » Logged

kells76
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« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2020, 02:58:50 PM »

Excerpt
6) Do you see any signs of parental alienation?

An alternative to that phrasing (which is at its core a good question to ask -- thx WSM!) would be:

Do you see any signs of a coalition between any child and one parent?

Or, Do you see any signs of an inappropriate coalition...

Or, ... A psychological coalition between...

Or, ...any child and one parent, against the other parent?

(Various options to think through)

I suspect a more helpful way to get at the very real PA problem is by framing it as Childress does (the coalition of parent/child vs other parent) and painting yourself as the parent who "isn't interested in labeling anything" -- you're just deeply concerned about your kids' well-being and if any unhealthy behaviors are there.

Food for thought...

kells76
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kells76
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« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2020, 03:51:29 PM »

Thinking of you... let us know how things go.
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Wilkinson
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« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2020, 07:58:39 PM »

Thinking of you... let us know how things go.
Sorry for the delayed response.  I don't know how well I put him in a double bind.  He came to my trial and he was against me having my kids for extended periods of time until I had some counseling WITH my kids.  I asked him why he has never let me come to any sessions with my kids. I have asked numerous times for counseling with my kids.  If he is so for it, why didn't he make it happen. It wasn't because I was unwilling.  He shrugged and said that he brought it up to the kids, but they did not want me there.

He mentioned to me that he said to my 15 year old that he saw me bring him in for counseling before my wife and I were in there for counseling and he thought we had a pretty normal relationship.  Why were things so bad now and could we get back to that.  He never told me the answer to that and I kept pushing to come back to that question and he kept moving away from it.

In the end, I don't know how much all of this mattered.  I probably stressed myself out over nothing.  I can't imagine I'm going so do something that would make him change his mind on anything.  Throughout this whole ordeal with my wife, the support groups I'm in, some people just won't change their opinions, no matter how wrong they may be. I hope I'm not like that, I can think of examples where I've been very wrong and can admit it, but who knows.  I just can't wait until I can get my kids away from this psychologist. He's caused more damage to my family than help.  He did fine when he was helping my son with ADD and anxiety, but he seems to be venturing out of his specialty and is ill prepared for it.
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Radcliff
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Fond memories, fella.


« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2020, 01:03:55 AM »

Two books would be very helpful for you to read.  Both are by Bill Eddy, who's both a therapist and a lawyer, and has developed a specialized practice in high conflict divorces.  He understands BPD.  The book, Splitting, is about divorce, and Don't Alienate the Kids is about parental alienation and how it's a complex problem that lawyers, judges, psychologiest, and even we as survivors can also make worse.  The experience you had with a pyschologist who believes that relationship work, especially by the survivor, can stop physical abuse, is unfortunately not uncommon.  Psychologists and therapists usually have shockingly little training in domestic violence and abuse.  Try talking to a few local domestic violence centers and see if they can refer you to a psychologist or therapist who specializes in domestic violence and really "gets it."  Some specialize in helping us recover from trauma, and some specialize in forensic work for custody, etc.

RC
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LegioXX Victrix

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« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2020, 01:23:53 AM »

Disclaimer: I am a 49y/o M who has sole legal and primary physical custody for 6+ years former spouse is a dxBPD.

I have read your original post, to begin with her is the first error that needs to be addressed. Her counselor, cannot be the kids counselor, and your counselor. That is an ethical conflict of interest, due to multi-roleing. And any testimony given is easily dismissed to the conflict of interests.

If she has made to false CPS complaints then you attorney should be making hay form this.

Parental alienation is very hard to prove unless you evidence based attachment evaluations ( I have been through two of them). Any accusation for parental alienation is usually based in fraudulent science to begin with. I have been accused to PA and four times independent evaluators have determined “ no coaching or alienation ... which is why attachment therapy is critical”

Suggestions:
1. Have the court appoint a separate counselor for the kids.
2. Talk with your counselor about attachment therapy, learn to read the cue’s and miscues of your children and recognize their internal states.
3. document everything in photos, recordings, don’t ask you kids any questions without having impartial witnesses.
4. You really need to read up on BPD and understand it is a political hot button since DSM-V. It will take a forensic evaluation of diagnose it. You can ask for the court to do forensic evaluations.
5. Own your PLEASE READ and fix yourself.


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