Talking with a new court appointed countelor

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I’ve been dealing with some serious parental alienation crap with my uBPDw.  She had been using one therapist to further her agenda, but in court, the judge said we had to go to family counseling with an assigned counselor.  My wife fought to meet individually at first.  So she and the kids saw her last week and today I see her on my own.  I’m trying to figure out what to do on my first visit.  Do I starting bringing out my proof of her emotional abuse to me and parental alienation tactics?  Do I mostly listen and answer just what I’m asked?  I’m sure last week, my wife lead the kids in telling how I’m such a bad guy, the kids don’t want to be around me, and so on.  So I’m going into this with a whole bunch of mud on my face.  I want to take the high road.  I want the counselor to uncover the truth and I don’t want to sling mud. 

I always feel like I’m trying to diffuse a bomb when I have to talk to a new person from the court about my situation, because if they start out with the wrong impression, it’s either over or really hard to get them to see the truth. I’ve been dealing with a GAL since Mid-November, who is just now starting to figure things out.

[Wilkinson]

I’ve been dealing with some serious parental alienation crap with my uBPDw.  She had been using one therapist to further her agenda, but in court, the judge said we had to go to family counseling with an assigned counselor.  My wife fought to meet individually at first.  So she and the kids saw her last week and today I see her on my own.  I’m trying to figure out what to do on my first visit.  Do I starting bringing out my proof of her emotional abuse to me and parental alienation tactics?  Do I mostly listen and answer just what I’m asked?  I’m sure last week, my wife lead the kids in telling how I’m such a bad guy, the kids don’t want to be around me, and so on.  So I’m going into this with a whole bunch of mud on my face.  I want to take the high road.  I want the counselor to uncover the truth and I don’t want to sling mud. 

I always feel like I’m trying to diffuse a bomb when I have to talk to a new person from the court about my situation, because if they start out with the wrong impression, it’s either over or really hard to get them to see the truth. I’ve been dealing with a GAL since Mid-November, who is just now starting to figure things out.

[kells76]

Good to hear from you again, Wilkinson. Your love for your kids always shines through when you post here, as you keep on persevering to do what's right, and care about what's true.

She had been using one therapist to further her agenda, but in court, the judge said we had to go to family counseling with an assigned counselor.

Good, good, good.

I’m sure last week, my wife lead the kids in telling how I’m such a bad guy, the kids don’t want to be around me, and so on.

I want to take the high road.  I want the counselor to uncover the truth and I don’t want to sling mud.

Your intuition about the situation is pretty good, I think. You think it's a safe bet that your xW didn't take the high road last week. If it were my DH's ex, I would put money on her covertly implying that "well, it's not like I hinder the kids' relationship with him at all... I mean, I bend over backwards to help them have a good relationship... what can I do? It's not like I can force them to be with him". All that BS, that has a shiny covering of "I'm doing nothing wrong, and I'm sacrificially doing everything I can to support the kids and their dad, but my hands are tied -- after all, I need to listen to their voices if they don't want to go". Trying to be the loving, warm, supportive Mom. Yup, there are ways of "slinging mud" that seem pretty "clean" -- but are actually "low road".

Do I mostly listen and answer just what I’m asked?

If it were me, and I were in your position, it would be hard for me not to want to defend myself and/or my DH. That being said, I would work overtime to remind myself to listen, listen, listen, and to have some questions reviewed that show what kind of person I am -- not questions like "how can you tell that my ex-wife is alienating the kids" but more open-ended questions like "what do you as a counselor wish that parents would work on with their kids" -- I'm sure there are more questions like that, but I would listen listen listen, have some questions that show you are the sort of person who will take any HW "assignments" seriously -- that you aren't "already too perfect to do them". I suspect your xW may balk at actually having to follow through on any assignments the counselor gives her. That was our experience with the kids' stepdad.

I really want to encourage you with this. I remember when we started counseling with the kids it was a C that mom picked. We were skeptical for a while but DH took the C seriously and after a few months it was super clear to the C where the issues were coming from.

Review your Dr. Childress articles beforehand, too. Super helpful ways to pivot conversations away from blame (i.e., when blame happens, it says more about the blamer than about the blamee, if that makes sense) and towards problemsolving.

Wishing you the best;

kells76

[worriedStepmom]

Yay!  I'm glad there is a new counselor.  That's a big deal.

I think the counselor will probably ask you what you think is the problem.  I would keep focused on the kids and try not to mention your ex if possible.  "The kids and I had a few great visits.  From date1 to date 2, they came to stay at my house A number of times and we did activities X, Y, and Z.  I was really surprised when <allegations were made>, and I'm so sad that I am not seeing the kids much right now.  I asked their previous counselor what I could do differently, and he just said something about child not liking baseball.  I want to repair my relationship with the kids and I am looking for information on how to do that."

[GaGrl]

You stay focused on the kids. If the transition from mom to dad is tough for them, that's a legitimate place to focus. I really like the idea of taking assignments seriously -- as your ex probably will not follow through.

Your goals for your children and goals for the relationship with your children may be a topic. Your ex may focus on "me, me, me" -- think about how you want to express those goals that are kid-focused, not you-focused.

Is your wife diagnose d?

[ForeverDad]

Probably the court assigned a counselor it trusts to have experience and perception to assess the actual situation.  As kells76 surmised, your ex may claim it's the kids who don't want their dad and she's helpless to counter that.  A few contradictions.

First, the children are likely to reflect a parent's demands and ultimatums.  Richard Warshak in Divorce Poison related the story of a little five year old girl who whispered to grandma, "Whatever I tell you I mean the opposite" then pulled away and shouted,  "I hate you!"  That child, as young as she was, did have some level of awareness of what was happening but felt powerless to oppose it.

This is why the counselor needs to listen to the children in a neutral setting.  If Mother is sitting right there, sitting right outside or Mother is the one transporting the children to and from the session, then the counselor probably isn't seeing the real scenario.

When my CPS interviewed my son after he had finally echoed his mother's claim, "my son told me..." they did it at his kindergarten school.  I can only assume they considered the unscheduled visit a neutral location to avoid the risk of coaching despite mother being the transporter to and from school.

In addition, if Mother brings the children for a session then Father should also get a similar opportunity — on his own parenting time.

Second, I recall the time I was in family court and the magistrate stated my 'excuse' that son didn't want to call his mother didn't matter.  She quizzed, "Does your son get to decide he doesn't go to school?"  Her point was that the kids don't decide many aspects of their lives including the parenting schedule or terms.  The parents have to follow the court's order.  So Mother shouldn't be able to use that as defense of her actions.

Third, I suspect this counselor is not to provide counseling for all parties, parents and children.  Maybe so at first to assess things, but the children need their own perceptive and experienced counselor with whom they can place trust and confidence.  Maybe the counselors should discuss things among themselves and the court but limited with parents until they figure out the parents.

[kells76]

Maybe the counselors should discuss things among themselves and the court but limited with parents until they figure out the parents.

Might not be a bad idea to offer "If you have any questions or concerns for my counselor, please feel free to reach out to him/her".

Again, I suspect your xW won't offer the same.

[Wilkinson]

No, she is not.

[Wilkinson]

I thought it went ok.  I kept myself focused on what was the most important.  My kids, and their relationship with their parents, divorce or not.  When I was asked questions about my wife or how things got the way they are, I did my best to be factual, not defensive, and not to point fingers. 

I guess the counselor first talked to my wife, then she talked to me, now she's going to see the kids individually. 

I don't know if this was a mistake or not, but at the end when she said she would talk to the kids individually, I asked her if she was familiar with parental alienation and things like the five factor model for parental alienation and the 8 manifestations of parental alienation.  She said yes, and I tried to simply say, that I've been reading about that in some of the stuff that I've tried reading in hopes to improve our situation and that information really resonated with me.  I'm obviously not qualified to diagnose it, but if she has the proper training, it would be beneficial for her to look into.

I guess we'll see.

[worriedStepmom]

good job, Wilkinson!

I like the way you presented it - I've researched X, Y, and Z and it resonated.  Hopefully she will take that into account.

She's already doing better than the last counselor, in that she talked with each parent separately and will evaluate each kid separately to see where the issues might lie.

[kells76]

Wilkinson, how are you doing? How was the weekend?

cheers;

kells76

[Wilkinson]

Wilkinson, how are you doing? How was the weekend?

Meh, I had my kids on Saturday.  One of them still wants to be close and we had fun.  One makes a great display of his rejection and spent time telling me he hated me and didn't want to partake in anything and flipped me off.  The other two just ignored me and played on their phones for nine hours.  Those two didn't eat anything I prepared for them.  I later found protein bar wrappers in the room where they stayed.  I don't know what will happen in the future.  This is parental alienation at it's worse and it is so hard to convince others that it exists when it is so obvious to me and those closest to me.

[kells76]

This is the hardest stuff. We have been there too, and we get it. It's excruciating.

Am I tracking correctly that all your kids were with you on Saturday? At your place, and not supervised (i.e. not "professionally")?

Under the "survival masks" of indifference or loathing, that is a good sign. This undermines their mom's story that you are dangerous and untrustworthy. I mean... if she were so worried, she wouldn't send them over. And if they had 100% drunk the kool-aid, they wouldn't be with you.

Your kids are definitely in turmoil, and what you see them doing is "surviving" the conflict as best they know how. The "on the phone" kids are probably surviving by checking out as a way to not have to see that you are different from Mom's narrative. The "I hate you" kid is surviving by putting up a strong "impermeable to facts" barrier as a way to not have to see that you are different from Mom's narrative.

Last week we were supposed to have SD14 over. She was "concerned about us still working and spreading the virus" type stuff... boilerplate from Mom. DH listened to her on the phone and then asked her what she wanted to know about our workplaces and the precautions we were taking (we both still have to work -- critical manufacturing). She said it would not make a difference if she knew.

I think she knew that if she knew the facts about how safe it was for us to work, then she would be in even more emotional turmoil and conflict. I.e., logically she would know she could come over, but emotionally she would still feel like she had to toe the line that Mom was putting out. So, she "survived" by saying "don't give me any facts".

Those two didn't eat anything I prepared for them.  I later found protein bar wrappers in the room where they stayed.

Yes. Mom's narrative is that only she can adequately care for the kids. "They need her to take care of them" because "Dad can't care/is abusively neglectful/blah blah blah". When SD14 started her period, Mom didn't tell us, and sent hygiene items with her -- also without telling us. I thought SD14 had started at our house and texted Mom -- "Hey, did you know SD14 started...?" Mom's reply: "Of course I did, and SD14 didn't want me to tell you". 

So, instead of sharing info with us so that SD14 would be cared for at both houses, Mom withheld info, putting SD14 in an anxious place ("Will I have supplies at Dad's?"), and then created this situation where "Only Mom can take care of you". So awful, and it sounds like your kids' mom is doing the same move.

...

What if you bought the same brand of protein bar and made little "gift baskets" of them in your kids' room? I mean... "Hey kids, I noticed you seem to like these... I want you to have some food you enjoy here! Let me know if you run out!" Jiu jitsu move.

...

Keep doing fun things with (I am assuming this is) your youngest kid. Watch movies, snuggle on the couch, make cookies, etc. Keep low-level inviting the others: "Hey, we're watching Avengers if you want us to wait for you to start". But if they don't take you up on it, just watch it anyway with your kid.

You are REALLY in the trenches right now. It is so hard.

This is parental alienation at it's worse and it is so hard to convince others that it exists when it is so obvious to me and those closest to me.

Yes. I'm so sorry; I know how gutwrenching it is.

Keep posting and letting us know how we can support you...

kells76

[Wilkinson]

Am I tracking correctly that all your kids were with you on Saturday? At your place, and not supervised (i.e. not "professionally")?

I did have all four with me on Saturday at my place.  I was supervised.  I still have to have supervision.  My lawyer still wants it as a way to protect me since I've already faced three false DCFS allegations. However, the GAL and judge didn't think I needed professional supervision.  This Saturday was my mother. my wife tried to fight that, but the GAL and judge thought it was a frivolous objection.

[I Am Redeemed]

How is the kids' relationship with your mom? Do you see any signs that your stbx is trying to alienate them from her, as well?

[kells76]

How is the kids' relationship with your mom? Do you see any signs that your stbx is trying to alienate them from her, as well?

Good question. The kids' mom and stepdad used to (and, who knows, maybe still do) refer to DH's mom and stepdad as "those people". Yay. 

Do the kids know that Grandma "has to" be there? Or is it just a "hey kids, let's spend time with Grandma" kind of thing?

I was supervised.  I still have to have supervision.  My lawyer still wants it as a way to protect me since I've already faced three false DCFS allegations. However, the GAL and judge didn't think I needed professional supervision.

That both sucks and doesn't suck. I'm glad your L is looking out for you and that both the GAL and judge see you as no cause for concern.

[worriedStepmom]

What if you bought the same brand of protein bar and made little "gift baskets" of them in your kids' room? I mean... "Hey kids, I noticed you seem to like these... I want you to have some food you enjoy here! Let me know if you run out!" Jiu jitsu move.

I LOVE this idea.  Also, potentially having happy child help you bake their favorite cookies.  It will take a really really obstinate child to resist if they can smell chocolate chip cookies baking and hear you and happy child talking about how much you are enjoying them.

[kells76]

What if you bought the same brand of protein bar and made little "gift baskets" of them in your kids' room? I mean... "Hey kids, I noticed you seem to like these... I want you to have some food you enjoy here! Let me know if you run out!" Jiu jitsu move.

I LOVE this idea.  Also, potentially having happy child help you bake their favorite cookies.  It will take a really really obstinate child to resist if they can smell chocolate chip cookies baking and hear you and happy child talking about how much you are enjoying them.

And hopefully this functions as an "arm lock" or "double bind" on your kids, but in a "sideways" kind of way -- if you get them the exact same kind of protein bars, then either (a) they (grudgingly) accept them, and have an experience where you have noticed what they like and cared about them, or (b) they have to make an EXTREMELY irrational argument that backs them into a corner: "I only like the protein bars when Mom buys them". That's when you "drop the mic" and walk away... maybe saying something slightly amused but neutral like "huh, that's odd... well, we'll save some cookies for you when we're done baking... love you"... leaving them to be stuck in their own argument.

[kells76]

Now is the time to step away from any arguments or "explanations" about food or dinner or whatever. Keep it light, roll with it, meet them where they're at. Project the image of yourself (and I mean that in a strong way, not a fake way) as "it's no skin off my nose" what the kids eat, you're flexible, you're just lightly amused at the protein bars, but you care, here's a gift of what they're showing you they want.

I know that inside, this is tearing you apart. We can support you, your counselor can support you, let it all out to us. Let the kids, though, see your "I've got this" strength. You are in it for the long haul, all for them. 

[ForeverDad]

I can see why kells76 felt this may be a bit soon to rock the boat.  Get a few visits under your belt, especially if grandma is the worst aspect of the supervision.  However, you may want to try an end run around the snubbing.  I got a laugh from david's approach to his kids, see below.  Maybe you could watch Young Frankenstein with them.  Are any of them young enough for you to offer afterward, "Who wants to be the monster?"

Have you read Divorce Poison by Richard Warshak?  He related a story where one grandparent was being alienated.  The little girl found a novel way to sneak a clue to the grandparent.  She hugged and whispered, "whatever I say, I mean the opposite."  Then she pulled away and started yelling at gparent, all to get out of a tight spot with her disordered parent.

Another example:  A member here, david, reported how he handled his boys arriving claiming he was a bad dad and dangerous.  So he acted like a monster and grinning chased them around.  They loved it and had a great time.  That was how he defused the blaming, he turned it into a game of sorts.

[Wilkinson]

How is the kids' relationship with your mom? Do you see any signs that your stbx is trying to alienate them from her, as well?

Oh yeah, they weren't nice to her either.  My sister was over before and it was interesting.  She got my oldest to talk about something he was interested in and you could just sort of see the light bulb come on that he was being nice to my sister and immediately shut up and started snubbing her. 

Her parents have also been cut off of the kids by her.  So I set up a Zoom call when they were over to talk to their other grand parents and three out of the four refused to talk to them.  I don't know if it had anything to do with them or if it was because it was initiated by me.

[Wilkinson]

Thank you, all these are great ideas.  I will work on all of them.  I don't think my mother is the worst aspect.  They would actually respond more to her than they would me.  In past visits, I remember I started playing with my 12 year old and even got him to smile, that's when his older brother jumped in and chastised him for being inappropriate.  My oldest seems to be the one to make sure everyone does not enjoy being around me.  When there were times he wasn't there, they were more willing to let loose a little.

I keep trying not to let it get to me when they are here.  One time I had plain donuts and all sorts of things to use to decorate their own donut.  It was just the one child who participated.  He and I have made cookies that no one else participated in.

I decided that I should have new holiday traditions at my place.  Just because I know my wife will continue the ones she has always worked hard to do, like dying Easter eggs.  I'm not trying to compete, but I figure it would be weird to do the same thing twice, one with Mom and one with Dad, so let's have Dad holiday traditions.  So when they were here on Saturday, rather than dye Easter eggs, I had stuff to build an Easter Egg catapult.  I was just the one kid who was willing to do it.  He did a great job and we launched eggs into the ditch.

I know this has to be hard for my 12 year old.  My mother said he kept peering out the window to see what his brother and myself were up to.  I really believe deep down he doesn't want to be doing the act that he does, but doesn't feel like he can participate.  I'd like to think the reason he can be the most vocal and insulting is actually because he is the one that is the most angry, but his angrily acting out has more to do with the fact that he wants to love his Dad and do the cool things with his Dad, but doesn't feel like he can, or that he'll have some sort of negative reinforcement if he does.

I'm getting used to their rejection, but I do feel awful for them because my wife also worked hard to alienate me from my family and she was successful for an extremely long time.  I know first hand how hard it can be, how conflicted you feel, but how you can convince yourself you're making the right choice as a coping mechanism because you really don't have a choice with her.

[kells76]

know this has to be hard for my 12 year old.  My mother said he kept peering out the window to see what his brother and myself were up to.  I really believe deep down he doesn't want to be doing the act that he does, but doesn't feel like he can participate.  I'd like to think the reason he can be the most vocal and insulting is actually because he is the one that is the most angry, but his angrily acting out has more to do with the fact that he wants to love his Dad and do the cool things with his Dad, but doesn't feel like he can, or that he'll have some sort of negative reinforcement if he does.

This is a great, compassionate insight to have about your kiddo. I think you really see his predicament. Maybe he knows that he won't hold up under Mom's grilling when he goes back to Mom's, and so in order to survive that, he "has to" not do fun stuff with you -- so that he can tell her the truth: "I didn't do anything fun with Dad" and have her get off his case.

I wonder if you can work with him where he's at -- not "making him do things as a family", but in a way, not leaving him out, either. So, he's not the one "participating", but he sees you haven't forgotten him.

I.e. Easter egg launcher: launch some plastic eggs at his window, see if he'll open the window for you to launch them through to him. Cookies: drop off a plate of them by his door, or slide them under his door if you can. Stuff where he doesn't feel like "well, either I get grilled by Mom, or Dad forgets me". You see his conflict and show him you still are there noticing him, without "making him do stuff" he has to report on.

[kells76]

Hey Wilkinson, how have things been going? How are you taking care of yourself?

Cheers!

kells76

[Wilkinson]

Hey Wilkinson, how have things been going? How are you taking care of yourself?

Doing OK.  It looks like the parental alienation is coming to light.  The kids have been getting worse when they are with me and people involved have notice that its’ not normal.  It really sucks for now, but it helps me feel hopeful.  I don’t get to do the normal stress relieving activities I used to because of the stay at home orders, but I’m doing OK.  Thanks for checking in.

[kells76]

It looks like the parental alienation is coming to light

Good to hear.

people involved have notice that its’ not normal.

also good to hear.

Sorry it's been such a long road. Glad there are professionals involved who are starting to really get it, though.

...

What did you usually like to do for relaxing, when you could get out of the house?

[Wilkinson]

What did you usually like to do for relaxing, when you could get out of the house?

Indoor rock climbing gym.

[kells76]

Indoor rock climbing gym.

Yeeeahhhh... hard to duplicate at home 

Do you have a finger board for strength training?

[livednlearned]

My oldest seems to be the one to make sure everyone does not enjoy being around me.

How do you respond when you see that happening?

What was your oldest's relationship with mom like when you were all together?

[Wilkinson]

Do you have a finger board for strength training?

Yeah and a pinch block.  Trying to climb vicariously through some climbing documentaries.

[Wilkinson]

How do you respond when you see that happening?

What was your oldest's relationship with mom like when you were all together?

I try to point out it is up to his sibling to answer, or interact, but by then they have usually withdrawn.  I guess I don't feel there's much I can do.  He uses a lot of language, I'm sure his mother is giving him. If I ask his sister about the books she is reading, before she can say anything, he'll pipe up, "She doesn't have to answer you."  When I say, I'm talking with her and would like to know what she says, and that it is a benign question, he as often told me to stop trying to manipulate her. 

Recently, I tried to get them outside on a nice day to go for a walk.  They refused.  I kept saying, "No, guys, it's a nice day, we aren't going to stay cooped up here on our phones all day, let's get outside and just go for a 20 minute walk."  He called his mother to say that I was trying to manipulate them.

Before I moved out, I would have said that he had a good relationship with both of us.  If anything, his mother got more frustrated with him and yelled at him more.  Which maybe makes sense, he's probably more afraid of her.

I can't prove it, but I feel quite sure she is lying to him in some sort of way.  He feels it is up to him to protect his siblings from me.  While I don't believe he has any reason to fear me, he seems to be convinced that I'm going to try to do something harmful to his siblings.  He often steps in to make sure he is always between me and my daughter.  He never behaved like this when I was living there and there is nothing in the history that would suggest that he needs to protect anyone from me.