Projection: Is it always a bad thing?

[JNChell]

Projection is something that I’ve learned about here. It had a negative aspect, but I understand it. I think that projection can also have positive results. It can help while communicating. It can tie into empathetic listening. It doesn’t have to be a toxic thing. It can help to move a conversation forward. Maybe, in a certain way, it can be about trying to relate. Testing the waters in a sense. Maybe that’s how pwBPD use it, but they can only take it so far. They can’t move the conversation forward, but they can certainly test the waters.

I’ve become very aware of how I talk to people. I listen very closely now. Projection has allowed conversations to move forward on occasion because it’s allowed both sides to relate. Just a thought. I hope to hear from others.

[gotbushels]

JNChell  

I'm using this definition of projection here.

Projection is denying one's own unpleasant traits, behaviors, or feelings by attributing them, often in an accusing way,  to someone else.

It can help while communicating. It can tie into empathetic listening. It doesn’t have to be a toxic thing. It can help to move a conversation forward.

Can you mention a specific example?


I think projection can be useful in this way. It's proposed that projection comes about because the person is unable to manage the trait/emotion/image on their own, therefore they try to disavow responsibility for it using projection. It's a method to control the anxiety from holding the aspect as part of their own self images, so it's also a psychological defence mechanism.

As non's this indicates to us what thing the BP is most unable to deal with. So it's a signpost. In this recognition, you can then see what the BP is most at issue with. Our role is not as T. So in my view, we've little to no business going near the issue. In this way, it communicates to us:

1. The thing that is to be deflected (we don't enable the BP by being the complicit new owner of whatever the projected thing is, at the given time).

2. The thing to be avoided.

E.g., rudeness, greedy, or being "Jekyll and Hyde" (I like this one because it implies the person struggles with reconciling grey-area choices by others).

I listen very closely now.

I agree—I think listening to a BP and learning to identify what projected things are, it improves our ability to tune in sharper to people who we think are normal. Part of the perks of BPD-school  


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[Notwendy]

I think there's a spectrum. People who don't have PD's also have functional traits such as denial and "healthy narcisism" and I guess could do some projection as well. I think the difference between that and someone with a PD is how much these traits interfere with relationships.

With my mother, her tendency to project has made it so she doesn't know me. She basically sees what she projects on to me. It's sad to think my parents don't know me but I felt invisible to them, because they saw what they projected, not who I am.

It also leads to strange reactions. If I was tired and took a nap, well that meant in projection land I was ignoring her. Once I accidentally burned some brownies. That meant I did it on purpose just to anger her. So out of the blue, I would be yelled at for something I had no clue about. And she would feel victimized by something she projected but wasn't true.

In this situation, I think projection can damage relationships, and sadly, for someone with BPD they may not even know why.

[Methuen]

This is an interesting thought you've put forward JNChell.

Projection is something that I’ve learned about here. It had a negative aspect, but I understand it. I think that projection can also have positive results. It can help while communicating. It can tie into empathetic listening. It doesn’t have to be a toxic thing. It can help to move a conversation forward. Maybe, in a certain way, it can be about trying to relate.

I must admit I'm scratching my head trying to figure out where you are going with this.  Could you provide a specific example? ...because based on my experiences with my mom, I don't understand how projection can be positive.

I am 57.  Until last summer I didn't have a clue about BPD.  I spent my life observing the goodness in her that others see and always believed she was a good person, but at the same time feeling the mean-ness that only my dad or I experienced as her closest relationships.  When she got into "one of her moods", I would try to talk with her, help her understand, rationalize, explain, defend...  It always ended the same, she would "twist" my words like an old knarled rope, and sometimes tell me "how overly sensitive I was" , or blame me for "making her feel bad", or yell at me "what a horrible person I was to make her feel bad", when really those were all her own horrible feelings that she couldn't deal with, so she had to blame me for them.  She was spitting toxic waste when she got going.  It got a LOT worse after my dad died, and as she aged.  It was horrible, and all I ever tried doing was using the same relationship skills that worked in every other relationship in my life with family or friends or colleagues where a situation needed problem solving or conflict resolution.  I was viewed by friends and colleagues as a very caring and empathetic person who liked to help others.  It never made sense why her and I were "oil and water" as my H used to put it.

I'm not sure how her projection there could help in communicating, unless you are suggesting that I should become therapist to her...?  

Now I use my newly acquired BPD-friendly skills to manage a relationship with her, that is currently as positive as it can be.  It is shallow, but positive.  It doesn't feel like a genuine relationship though because I can't be myself.  I always have to be using my "BPD-schooling" in almost every interaction with her.   However, now that I'm "aware" of what BPD really is and also what it means for close relationships, her projection helps me see where her own sense of self-loathing lies, but all the BPD reading I have done also helps me see that.  I don't need to keep "feeling" it with her repeated projection episodes.  That just sounds like self-injury to me.  I just don't see how her projection is helpful to me, unless you are suggesting we use that knowledge to move forward as therapists with them.  But I don't believe it is my job as her daughter to be her therapist.  I'm not trained, and I think that could be a dangerous thing for family to try.

I've probably completely misunderstood what you were saying, but I am really interested in hearing where you are going with this.

[JNChell]

Hello, gotbushels. Thank you for the definition. I’ve been thinking about it differently and not from a standpoint of being harmful towards someone else because I can’t handle my feelings.

Can you mention a specific example?

When in a conversation, and the other person leads into talking badly about themselves (inner critic), maybe it can be helpful to project good feelings onto them. Not to minimize their negative feelings about themselves. I guess that validation plays a big part in that. I’m talking about doing good by projecting. Projecting with empathy.

A. “I really screwed up at work today.”

B. “I’m sorry to hear that. I’ve done the same at times.”

A. “I’m such an idiot.”

B. “If you’re an idiot, so am I. Mistakes happen.”

...and so on.

I’m most likely off base here, but I’m hungry to learn and get advice from my peers. BPD school.

I’m glad that this thought has turned into a conversation. I’m on the downslide of my experiences, and I have to admit that I’m very intrigued by the human condition. I can’t learn enough about it. Know what I mean?

[JNChell]

Hi, Notwendy. Always happy to talk with you. I’m glad that you mentioned it being on a spectrum. I believe that all of life is on a spectrum, and that has really helped me to understand mindfulness and being able to ground myself.

I very much agree on them not knowing why they project their feelings. I have a 5 year old son, and see it quite a bit. We’re working on it, but the little guy just doesn’t understand at times. He’s still figuring out his emotions and what they feel like. I’m doing my best to guide him through those feelings so that he is emotionally mature when he becomes a man. PD’s were blocked from feeling themselves at a young age. They’re children in strong, adult bodies.

I think that you’re very spot on in the fact that they don’t really know us. They want us to be them. A lot of damage results. Perhaps it’s the undeveloped part of them constantly pulling at them.

[JNChell]

Methuen, I’m most likely very off base with my thoughts, but I bring them here. I have to agree with Notwendy about how it is on a spectrum. We have experienced the negative affects of toxic projection. I’m just wondering if there’s a positive in there, somewhere. I believe that there is. Think about law enforcement negotiators that save lives. I bet a lot of projection was used.

I understand how we can view things because of our experiences, but it can also be helpful for us to look over the fence at times.

[Methuen]

A. “I really screwed up at work today.”

B. “I’m sorry to hear that. I’ve done the same at times.”

A. “I’m such an idiot.”

B. “If you’re an idiot, so am I. Mistakes happen.”

This sounds like sympathy/empathy, but not projection...?

I'm trying to understand, but not following your line of thinking yet.

Think about law enforcement negotiators that save lives.

Can you be more specific with a projection example?

[JNChell]

I really can’t. Like I said, I bring my thoughts here, and this is why I’m glad that I do. I always learn something new. My thoughts and learning path were really messed up for a while. I’m ok with being wrong now when I learn from it. I appreciate your interaction and I realize that my thoughts were off. I see the difference between what I was trying to describe and what really is.

Is projection a toxic thing? I don’t think it has to be. I think it can be a very helpful thing if used with empathy/sympathy, it can be useful to help things.

What if projection had a positive message and effect?

[Methuen]

Like a dog with a bone I'm still trying to figure out where you are going with this, mostly because I'm wondering if maybe I'm missing something important that could help me.

Like most of us here, I'm on a journey to what I hope is self-improvement.  So I'm kind of feeling that I'm maybe missing a piece of the puzzle, and I'm trying to find it.  Or maybe I've misunderstood projection?

Projection

In general, emotionally healthy people base their perceptions on facts.  Projection is basing your perception of reality on feelings.

Projection is a defense mechanism, operating unconsciously, in which what is emotionally unacceptable in the self is unconsciously rejected and attributed (projected) to others.  Projection is denying one's own unpleasant traits, behaviors, or feelings by attributing them, often in an accusing way,  to someone else...Skippy

So when our pwBPD is "projecting" to us in the clinical sense, the words are usually so negative and toxic that projection is one of the defense mechanisms that damages close relationships in the BPD's life.  I can't imagine that these moments are positive for us non's.  Instead, we usually feel abused, angry, resentful, unfairly treated...

I’ve become very aware of how I talk to people. I listen very closely now. Projection has allowed conversations to move forward on occasion because it’s allowed both sides to relate. Just a thought. I hope to hear from others.

I am wondering if it could be that you are thinking of "projection" in more of a non-clinical sense?  When you say "projection has allowed conversations to move forward", can you give an example?

I am definitely missing something, but I look forward to understanding it better.

What if projection had a positive message and effect?

I'm trying to understand how a rage that projects the BPD's own issues onto others can have a positive message/effect?

[Cromwell]

"hostage negotiator" comes to mind.

A projection that ends up being invalidated can be a precursor to a dysregulation.

Anything but a dysregulation, if this has been achieved than the projection doesnt matter (after all it just got processed as inane drivel, and converted by the cortex as noise anyway). It is irrelevant, or at least, made so.

[JNChell]

Non-clinical. Everything doesn’t have to revolve around BPD. Have you never projected positive feelings onto someone? That’s what I’m getting at. Everything doesn’t have to revolve around BPD. There is another world out there where similar terminology exists, but has a different meaning/feeling. I understand that this community is built around toxic behaviors and how they can hurt people. I also understand that we can stay stuck in it, or eventually try to create a world view that isn’t submerged in BPD. There is more out there, and projection can be positive.

[Methuen]

Ahh!  I think I get what you are suggesting now, and certainly agree that it's helpful to find positive ways to help people who are struggling, such as being supportive, empathetic etc., but I think I was confused because what you were questioning didn't seem to fit the definition of "Projection" as defined on the website here.

I think you are talking about being a positive person, and "expressing" or "projecting" happy thoughts (instead of negative emotions in the clinical sense) in communication...

[Cromwell]

I dont think I do get it, but maybe ill try.

Making another feel positive - mostly in the context of dating, a recent example is I told a girl that I found her hobby really interesting and id meaning to try it myself, also that I thought I admired the skill she must have to do it. Her face was uplit by that, and it was not entirely false, but I was pleased to help encourage that positive rapport, I also feel positive just being with her in close proximity (from the definition of projection, there is no requirement that it has to be done verbally).

I maybe have made someone more positive when I really didnt like them in group work - for the purpose of maintaing cohesiveness and avoid conflict. Im guessing this again is not a helpful example

I can be good at making people feel positive, and I can go about it without being completely false to myself too JNChell. I do it every day with friends mostly, if im close to them especially, I want them to feel good. There is no motive in those cases or hidden agenda like there might be in dating where lets face it, I want to feel good and her too, it is the whole point.

Maybe im way off track what you are looking for, its been great though JNChell, definetely conundrum for the month I thank you for it.

[JNChell]

Yes. A positive way of thinking.

for the purpose of maintaing cohesiveness and avoid conflict.

Exactly. We will never agree on everything, and we need to understand that. That doesn’t mean that we have to be enemies or avoid others that we have a disagreement with. There is a lot to be learned within conflicting thoughts with others.

Projecting can have a good place. It doesn’t have to be mean and hurtful. It can make others feel good. Including ourselves. A win/win.

[Methuen]

But isn't that also "effective communication" or SET?

Projection by definition is denying one's own unpleasant traits, behaviors, or feelings by attributing them, often in an accusing way,  to someone else.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=70931.0

I'm a little uncomfortable with also musing that projection could be positive communication as I think "projection" could then become confusing to community members (as it was to me), and especially new members, who often land on this forum in the midst of a crisis. 

To read about projection in the reference material (in the clinical term), and then read about it in a post as possibly being positive communication seems to make the waters a bit muddy.

I don't think we can change the meaning of projection just like we can't change the meaning of validation, or the Karpman triangle.

I do think we can all work to be more positive in our communication with high conflict persons, by using strategies like SET, and speaking with sunnier tones, so in that respect I totally support what you are saying!

[Cromwell]

idk JNChell, I dont like the idea, and it is not that I dont see the theory, I just dont see it in practice.

I put up with some of the BS and I have to massage some egos along the way just because there are moments they cannot be avoided, have to be appeased, but I dont find it win/win when I pull it off, it is mentally draining, it also feels dirty, cowardly, I have to use a lot of energy to hide my real feelings of repulsion. At times I have felt provocation and had the patience of a saint, maybe more, from being inclined to break a nose. I manage it far better than I used to, but only because I learned how incorrugible there are and that as a society, there is not a real solution.

In some perverse way, they are even promoted as having a functional role. Employers use them as workplace antagonists - they create divisions and that means a workforce that is easier to control. Divide and conquer. Many of them end up as leaders themselves, look around JNChell for the examples, they are everywhere because they have been allowed to act with impunity and it reinforces it.

Just my view, positive projection would be at an angle and acceleration that would be headed toward a space colony on a one way ticket. Id happily press that launch button, call it win/win, they get their planet we have ours.

[JNChell]

Cromwell, I’ll stick to my guns here, but also agree with much of what you’ve said. Trust me, I see people climbing the pole. It’s very weird to me and I wonder why some people want so much power.

You talk about massaging peoples egos. Is that necessarily bad? I don’t think it is. If we have means to help, we should IMHO.  I don’t think that feeling dirty and cowardly is a healthy emotional response to being the more aware person in the room. We know things that others never will. For the most part, that’s a good thing. Is it a bad thing to use what we’ve learned just because others don’t know about it? It’s not manipulation or coercion. It’s knowing something different. It’s trying to help.

[Cromwell]

Its when I draw back on past experience of the end result of this sort of approach, it has always been one where a lot of work is carried out a lot of stress in the process, and no visible net gain of much changed. At best, it loops back to what I said earlier. It kept the situation under control from escalating. It didnt fundamentally change. It is a life of problem fixing.

I also realise and I have taken on board that beyond locking them up the fighting fire with more fire just becomes a tete for tete. I learned this with my ex, there is not such a thing as "I learned something today from Cromwell", it gets instead converted into something else, it creates grudges and it fuels and plays into their hands to create more conflict. My ex I view differently I dont view what she did as exploitative in the same sense, hers was deep rooted in abandonment fears, I learned compassion for that, it healed me too and diluted the anger of feeling prior exploitated in the malicious sense I believed it was.

I have done better at recognising this JNChell, (trying to help) I just wish I didnt have to be involved at all. It can turn an awesome day on top of itself in an instant. Have you ever been in an environment where everyone is getting a long, then "that" person walks in and the whole atmosphere drops through the floor? It is that that gets to me.

Youve made me feel more optimistic though, I have somehow a bit of confidence and less anxiety. I need to learn more for sure but I think its helped to get an idea of the framework and the idea that it is not pointless, that there is a way to see it as win/win which is a new one for me JNChell, thanks once again.

[Turkish]

That example isn't projection. Projective Identification would be if you took emotional responsibility for the projection, such as "you're fat and have let yourself go and I'm no longer attracted to you." And you believed it. 

[gotbushels]

JNChell   

I’ve been thinking about it differently and not from a standpoint of being harmful towards someone else because I can’t handle my feelings.

OK.

[...] maybe it can be helpful to project good feelings onto them.

It seems that you're trying to help someone else feel good; in this case by using a tool.

I guess that validation plays a big part in that. I’m talking about doing good by projecting. Projecting with empathy.

A. “I really screwed up at work today.”

B. “I’m sorry to hear that. I’ve done the same at times.”

I agree that there's a validation statement inside here—so you're right. And I do agree with Turkish and Methuen, this isn't projection.

"I’m sorry to hear that." ← not part of the common site tools.

"I’ve done the same at times." ← this is a Empathy statement under SET, because you're demonstrating a common understanding of the other person's experience. It also qualifies as a validation statement ("me too"-styled statements).

From what I can see—you're empathising in this example with SET and validation, and not with projection.

A. “I’m such an idiot.”

B. “If you’re an idiot, so am I. Mistakes happen.”

"If you’re an idiot, so am I." ← not part of the common site tools. I'd discourage this type of rapport-building because with most normal people they don't invest so much into statements. But with a BP—we have to be careful about providing support for those cognitive distortions. Calling oneself an idiot for making a mistake is a Labelling distortion. Also, you may not even agree with you being an idiot yourself    and if you truly don't agree that you're an "idiot" in whatever mistake they made—then you're using something not true to build rapport. I'd move away from taking any kind of responsibility for other people's mistakes—we already make enough of them on our own! So I don't think this kind of thing is necessary.

"Mistakes happen." ← I think this qualifies as a Truth statement under SET.

I’m on the downslide of my experiences, and I have to admit that I’m very intrigued by the human condition. I can’t learn enough about it. Know what I mean?

Mm I think I know what you mean. I found I had a lot of time freed because I didn't have to caregive the BP in my life anymore. If exploration is how you're using that surplus creative energy—go for it.   

[JNChell]

Ok. I can see that I’m wrong here. There is no one that I’m currently communicating with that brought my thoughts about. Just thinking is all. So, projecting positive feelings can result in lying. Yes, I guess so. I won’t argue that.

The majority rules here. I’ve mistaken the tools. I just want to do good while coming out of a bad thing. I’m not the sharpest guy in the world, but I’m trying to learn.

I appreciate the straight forward advice. Many people read this stuff, and they should be given appropriate information, including me. It helps. Thank you all.

[Cromwell]

From wikipedia on the page 'psychological projection'.

Projection of hope: Also, in a more positive light, a patient may sometimes project his or her feelings of hope onto the therapist.[28]

[28] links to a book called

Further Learning From the Patient. The Analytic Space and Process by Patrick Casement. 1990, p 122

Maybe this sounds like it could be an example of positive projection? I dont know, I have not and will not read the book but thought it was revelant.

[JNChell]

I appreciate that, Cromwell. Thank you. I believe that it’s possible, I just don’t posses the way to describe it, so I’ll lay it down until I can figure it out. Projection is obviously the wrong word.

[Cromwell]

in a results orientated way as opposed to process orientated, I found great benefit from the idea of "trying to help" that you put forward. for me that is my valuable take home message. If along the lines we have went "off-base" (where is 'base' btw?) I enjoyed the opportunity to do so, it yielded to the surface something for me to deeply reflect on, thank you, my perhaps selfish hope is that you continue in this trend of breaking outwith the boxes, so to speak.  

[gotbushels]

JNChell   

So, projecting positive feelings can result in lying.

Well, if you think or thought it was true then it wasn't lying to you. If you have new information that shows that you don't need to join in with the other person's self-labeling for the purpose of relating to that person—then I think that's learning. I also do think it's all part of the process all of us are going through together.

To share with you that I'm here to learn too—I'll share this with you. I thought SET at one time could be used to resolve an issue that a member presented. I learned that exiting or avoiding the setup in the long term is a more effective option—instead of using SET.

I’m not the sharpest guy in the world, but I’m trying to learn.

That's true—I'm not the sharpest guy in the world too     and yes, most of us are here to learn.

[JNChell]

gotbushels. 

I learned that exiting or avoiding the setup in the long term is a more effective option

If I’m hearing you correctly, you’re saying just let it be. To stop looking for this stuff at every turn? It’s easy to do when immersed in it, but I guess we eventually have to come out of it and not define our everyday lives by it.