HELP - I’ve unleashed the beast, so to speak part 6

[UBPDHelp]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=344066.0

And here is the next thing, mostly just for venting/informational purposes.

I’ve mentioned that H like me to feel financially unstable. He knows I’m more pay my bills,  don’t live on the edge kind of person. He likes stuff and vacations and going out. Who doesn’t?  But I prefer peace of mind over any of it. If I can have both (or a fair amount of stability), then I’m up for fun.

So he’s trying in very unknown ways to keep his business alive. This is surprising to me, but I think some of his BS is showing. I suspect he has used his not caring/wanting to quit to keep me off balance. I know he hates his job but he’s sort of stuck (especially since he does nothing to change (was going to get certified in corresponding field (about 1 1/2-2 years while still working) or look for any other job).  He knows this but still wants to quit. I support him changing responsibly. I don’t support maxing out our lifestyle and then just quitting with no plan.

Anyway, he tells me he is giving his partner a hard time about signing the financing agreement. I asked him why.  He had no reason. Later I find out that the financing hasn’t come through yet, probably next week sometime — he originally said it was this past week. Not a huge deal imo.  Question is whether he is somehow embarrassed that it didn’t happen (don’t know why he would be, but since much of what he does doesn’t make sense to me, who knows?) OR did he just seize an opportunity to appear to be in control of his partner and try to make me feel uncertain too?

While I know it isn’t always helpful, or possible, to understand the why they do things, sometimes that matters in our response, doesn’t it?

Like if he’s trying to make me uneasy I may respond by not being uneasy (or at least not showing it).  But if he’s embarrassed and feeling worried and trying to cover that, I may respond with reassurance.  

Or, is there a response that is the same for both?

[formflier]

No, he behaves as if nothing happened UNLESS he is making a point. I’m just supposed to get over whatever he does.
 

Can you flesh this out for us a bit more with exactly what you said and he said?

Here is the thing.  Most of the time it's best to completely ignore and not give fuel to whatever BPDish stuff is happening.  There at times when it should be addressed or understood and it would seem that when they are bringing it up or trying to make amends..that would be an appropriate time.

It's important to not "participate" in turning something into something it isn't (don't enable a lie or validate the invalid).  Repeat that a few times.

You don't need to convince him that he is wrong or he did a thing, but it's likely important to explicitly leave things with questions/open ends based on your pwBPDs non-answers or lack of insight.

Then let them struggle with that..don't fix it for them..don't enable..don't soothe.  

The situation you are setting up is that there is soothing through an apology...through "correct behavior".  Maybe..just maybe your pwBPD will gravitate to that kind of behavior, vice dysfunctional.

Flip it around.  If there is no incentive to do "correct behavior", why would they ever do it?  Especially if they get needs met through their dysfunctional ways.

Best,

FF

 

[formflier]

  Maybe not a huge deal, but in the light of his constantly taking credit for things it drives me nuts that he does not give credit where credit is due. 

OK..I get the bizarre.

Look for simple solutions. 

Ask direct questions..

He takes credit for sons efforts.  So you ask "Hey babe...what do you think about Johnny's efforts to get into school"

Redirect back to the question if he tries to avoid.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Like if he’s trying to make me uneasy

Do you really think that he sat down in his room..alone and decided to call his partner and do ab and c for the sole purpose of making you feel uneasy?

Seriously...

Not trying to be mean here but I think a different perspective on this could open up a big toolbox to you!  Hmmmm...I wonder what that is about?

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Can you flesh this out for us a bit more with exactly what you said and he said?

Here is the thing.  Most of the time it's best to completely ignore and not give fuel to whatever BPDish stuff is happening.  There at times when it should be addressed or understood and it would seem that when they are bringing it up or trying to make amends..that would be an appropriate time.

It's important to not "participate" in turning something into something it isn't (don't enable a lie or validate the invalid).  Repeat that a few times.

You don't need to convince him that he is wrong or he did a thing, but it's likely important to explicitly leave things with questions/open ends based on your pwBPDs non-answers or lack of insight.

Then let them struggle with that..don't fix it for them..don't enable..don't soothe.  

The situation you are setting up is that there is soothing through an apology...through "correct behavior".  Maybe..just maybe your pwBPD will gravitate to that kind of behavior, vice dysfunctional.

Flip it around.  If there is no incentive to do "correct behavior", why would they ever do it?  Especially if they get needs met through their dysfunctional ways.

Well, this is probably tough for me. The mini apology wasn’t about the original insult. It was coming back for 2 days and then freaking out again. At that point he said he didn’t want to fight with me. I told him I didn’t either but that I would not tolerate him breaking things and raging. Just not acceptable and not doing it. We did not go back to the brush off then. Later as I’m falling asleep, he made a comment about sex. I was not up for the conversation (I stay up fairly late, not my choice but he stays up really, really late).  He sleeps late, too. He only thinks I should change to his schedule.  No adult who doesn’t work 2nd or 3rd shift, sleeps like this. It’s like a teenager. He’s not willing to go to bed a little earlier to have alone time but then complains about me. I’ve told him this before. Not to mention right now, I’m not really interested as I’m not over his behavior.

I would like him to soothe through an apology. Interesting, apologies are a one way street here. I apologize. He tells you to lump it or leave it. And our oldest son isn’t great at apologizing. I’ve mentioned that an apology can go a long way. I’ve given clue after clue, but I believe for H it’s a mix of shame and not giving me any power. But, perhaps getting a taste of no BS, and he may start to see it.

Will keep working on this. Thanks FF.

[UBPDHelp]

Do you really think that he sat down in his room..alone and decided to call his partner and do ab and c for the sole purpose of making you feel uneasy?

Seriously...

Not trying to be mean here but I think a different perspective on this could open up a big toolbox to you!  Hmmmm...I wonder what that is about?

No, I don’t think it’s the sole purpose, but definitely believe it’s an added perk to him.

I believe he hates his job. He wants to walk out. He doesn’t quite do it b/c he knows it would be catastrophic, but he doesn’t entirely care so he still goes to work, but doesn’t do anything (aka not billing/not making money).  Pandemic hits and now he panics b/c he’s afraid of germs and now he can’t work (he can, but says he can’t). No more games, he’s now given away too much that clients are few and far between. Realizes he’s going to lose it all. Partner does all the legwork finding financing and H mood lifts slightly. Expects to have financing last week. The week progresses and nothing. H lies that he won’t sign. Truth is the paperwork is not even there to sign.

Why say it?  He’s embarrassed that the financing hasn’t come trough yet? Again, I don’t know why this would be embarrassing.

Is he planning to not sign it?  Idk, but it’s a lie at this point b/c there’s nothing to sign yet.

So, if he’s worried it will fall through and told me that, I could talk about it with him and offer support.

If he wants to make me feel uneasy, then congratulations.

Maybe I’m so mired in the unsteady history this is not so clear to me. What do you see?

[formflier]

  but definitely believe it’s an added perk to him.
 

Let me think about it.

It's more important (IMO) to understand what you see that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt this is an added perk to him.

I'm all ears...   

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Let me think about it.

It's more important (IMO) to understand what you see that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt this is an added perk to him.

I'm all ears...   

Alright, alright, I have no proof. Just a whole lot of history making me feel this way and statements that he likes me to feel unstable financially. He told a story two days ago that I’m more conservative and like steady.  Yep, I am not a thrill seeker.

And, maybe I resent him not living up to his promises, when he is capable of it and at the very least could reduce our expenses so he didn’t have to work so hard. When I get a job, he starts with it being too much time, etc. something’s gotta give.

[formflier]

And, maybe I resent him not living up to his promises, when he is capable of it and at the very least could reduce our expenses so he didn’t have to work so hard. When I get a job, he starts with it being too much time, etc. something’s gotta give.

This...focus here.  These are your feelings...not his.  Yes...I resent (fill in the blank).

Can I be so bold as to ask you to list several things you resent?

I think that will clarify your values...from there I think you can find lots of productive outlets for things.

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

This...focus here.  These are your feelings...not his.  Yes...I resent (fill in the blank).

Can I be so bold as to ask you to list several things you resent?

I think that will clarify your values...from there I think you can find lots of productive outlets for things.

Thanks FF. I seem unable to step far enough away to gain any true perspective. I’m just in the middle and reacting...but trying to shift more to me acting as you have suggested. This is good advice because when I reflect, a tremendous amount of the crappy situation I’m in is due to me constantly reacting to his poor behavior.  He’s responsible for the bad behavior, I’m responsible for reacting poorly to it.

And let me start my list of what I resent with that I am mad at myself. I know better, deserve better and I stupidly have run around putting out little fires trying to keep the peace. Maybe if I’d had better boundaries and tools I could have helped him from getting here as well.  But I didn’t know and now that I do, can I change it or is it too far gone (including simply no longer having the stamina to do so)?

The biggest thing I resent is allowing him to set up our life so that the partnership was so distinctly separate. He is the breadwinner and I would manage the house and most of the kids stuff (80-90%, 100% of non-fun kid stuff). So I resent him for CHOOSING to max us out and then deciding he doesn’t want to be so much the breadwinner anymore.  I resent myself for not putting my foot down. I questioned the bigger house, the second car and believed him when he said he had it covered.

So, I resent he made these promises and is CHOOSING to not uphold them. But, I have blame here, too.  I didn’t have to believe him, I could have refused the house/car and I could have insisted on continuing my career and sharing responsibilities.

I resent the magnitude with which my past (which I don’t believe is all too scandalous) is brought into every issue. For 25 years, albeit the last 10 or so with much more regularity.

I resent that he talks somewhat disgusting about his past — feel sorry for those girls. He believes slutty girls are fun to play with but not to marry. Ugh...I wish I’d heard any of this before we married or during the first 10 years.

I resent how he will watch every movie about the first time, over and over these days. There are more than I ever thought existed. I resent the double standard that he can talk about his first, found out the other day a memento he has from years ago is from her and is prominently displayed. Had no idea. Resent the double standard and it being brought up.  He is aware of the double standard and just says it was important to him to marry a virgin (which he would have never stuck around for someone who waited) but it wasn’t important to me so that’s why it’s different. He knew about my previous bf within at most a couple of weeks of our dating.

And, or course, there are little things. His controlling the tv or vacation plans. He’ll ask what you want, but will keep at it until you land where he wants. I have a story for another day around this.

Alienation from my family. But, I feel this is just as much my fault and I will do what I can to repair here.

So, boiled down:

1. Resent pushing our finances to the extreme, never being satisfied with it, and now wanting to abandon the responsibilities around these things. These things impact me, but I’m shielded from most credit wise.

2. Hearing one more thing in relation to my past. Attaching my disinterest in him b/c of it. Not true. His dysregulations are a huge turn off, sorry. Especially b/c they circle me being a slut.  And this is temporary...when I feel better, I try to have a complete r/s with him.

I’m sure I’ll think of other minor things/examples, but these are definitely the biggest two.  Thanks for any insights!

[formflier]

  He’s responsible for the bad behavior, I’m responsible for reacting poorly to it.

Yes...and there is also more to this...this statement is true and also incomplete.

Work on adding in "when I knew better" and perhaps "and I had practiced the skills to do better."

It's not just "knowing" bettering it's also "doing" better.  

I hope it's obvious that the knowing comes first and then practice.  How do you expect the first couple practices to go?  (right...that's not a "failure"..it's completely normal)

Don't in any way experience this post as "letting you off the hook".  Please do experience this post as "don't be so hard on yourself."

How does all of this sit with you?

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Yes...and there is also more to this...this statement is true and also incomplete.

Work on adding in "when I knew better" and perhaps "and I had practiced the skills to do better."

It's not just "knowing" bettering it's also "doing" better.  

I hope it's obvious that the knowing comes first and then practice.  How do you expect the first couple practices to go?  (right...that's not a "failure"..it's completely normal)

Don't in any way experience this post as "letting you off the hook".  Please do experience this post as "don't be so hard on yourself."

How does all of this sit with you?

I’m okay with this. I can take responsibility and I know I can’t blame myself for what I didn’t know. I just have to change going forward, but I don’t know if that’s just for me or if for the r/s.

And, things are getting ready to blow. H announced he is refusing to proceed with financing of office (and then it would be some income for him, too) and is planning to just let it die. No plan from there. No looking for another job or anything. Just tv watching is all.

He said he wanted access to all accounts. He has it but just never uses it so doesn’t remember how to login. There’s nothing in them except what I have funded the last two months to pay bills and food. I’m sure he wants my account info which I don’t plan to give him, but I’m sure that will p!ss him off. I will tell him what’s there, but just no access.

I think this has the potential to turn very bad, very quick.

Appreciate any suggestions on how to approach.  I’m not bringing up unless he does at least until I can map it out easily for him. I was hoping he would have some income and I could take care of rest of bills needed and then discuss.  Now just a mess. 

Thanks for any help.

[formflier]

I can't imagine helping him gain access..in any way, would be good for the situation.

He has a computer, phone and I assume access to a bank.   You are not his employee.

Now if here was a compromise that said

him:  I'm bringing in x amount of dollars from  y

you:  Ok, I'll help you get access to see the deposit and bill flow

That would limit the amount of (whatever) if he welches.

Said another way...what about the things you "want".

How did it get to be your job to map it out for him?  Seriously.  How will he learn to "map" if others do it for him?

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

And, things are getting ready to blow. H announced he is refusing to proceed with financing of office (and then it would be some income for him, too) and is planning to just let it die. No plan from there. No looking for another job or anything. Just tv watching is all.

He said he wanted access to all accounts. He has it but just never uses it so doesn’t remember how to login. There’s nothing in them except what I have funded the last two months to pay bills and food. I’m sure he wants my account info which I don’t plan to give him, but I’m sure that will p!ss him off. I will tell him what’s there, but just no access.

Hi UBPDHelp,

I am sure this came as quite the shock.    I am sure this was a blow.    Did you take a few minutes to do some self care?    Did you do some deep breathing to help settle you?    That's my first suggestion.    because it's always my first suggestion.   self care. self care. self care.     babyducks being repetitive.   in the plane they always tell you to put on your oxygen mask first.    I hope you put on your oxygen mask.

H announced he is refusing to proceed with financing of office (and then it would be some income for him, too) and is planning to just let it die.

He may or may not do this.    He has not been accurately reporting information for at least 7 months now (from what you have posted.)     He may be becoming this self destructive.    The last you said were the papers hadn't arrived.   Have they turned up?     Take a couple of deep calming breaths.    I know that is hard to do.   I would suggest that not everything he says is the 100% gospel truth.    this is another form of abuse.    threatening behavior around money and finances is economic abuse.     he may or may not do this.    he may threaten a new form of abuse since his old standard is not working as well for him.

I remember you were looking for a lawyer.     How is that going?    I know there is a lot for you to handle now but I would push this to the top of your list.    A safety plan includes a financial safety plan.    right?   deliberately destroying the family financially requires legal advice.    detailed specific to your location and situation legal counsel.   that is suggestion two.

I’m sure he wants my account info which I don’t plan to give him, but I’m sure that will p!ss him off. I will tell him what’s there, but just no access.

Don't read in.     Don't use disaster vision to predict things that may or may not happen.    People (all people) who live in abusive households become hyper vigilant.    they over function.    over do.    trying to avoid and evade the rage and the anger.    the technical name for it is "Catastrophizing".    Yes this is a bad threat.    Work like the dickens to try and keep it right sized.  Try like mad to stay in the moment.    Has he mentioned your account?    At this point how much does it matter if he gets pissed off about access?    Does he really need to know how much is there?    Is it more responsible or less responsible to share this information with him?

One of the senior members on the legal board often says "beware of being too much the nice guy".    It's a valid comment.      You do not have to be reasonable and accommodating to some one who is threatening you.

hope this helps
'ducks

[UBPDHelp]

I can't imagine helping him gain access..in any way, would be good for the situation.

He has a computer, phone and I assume access to a bank.   You are not his employee.

Now if here was a compromise that said

him:  I'm bringing in x amount of dollars from  y

you:  Ok, I'll help you get access to see the deposit and bill flow

That would limit the amount of (whatever) if he welches.

Said another way...what about the things you "want".

How did it get to be your job to map it out for him?  Seriously.  How will he learn to "map" if others do it for him?

Hi FF, thanks for the feedback. I want to let you know from the get go that I don’t have proof of any of my further concern, just a lot of bad experiences.

We have a few accounts — one for everyday life expenses, one for bigger expenses (taxes, etc) and one we don’t really use regularly except for say vacation money or other fun things.  None of these have any money in them right now except for the everyday where I put money from my own account in to pay some monthly bills. It looks a bit higher because I haven’t paid some yet.

He has access to all of these, but doesn’t do it. We also have running tallies on display for both of us where we track the comings and goings of the other accounts (everyday is mostly understood). He can see them everyday, in fact, it would be hard for him to not see them. This is babying, but we started this several years ago to avoid misunderstandings about where money was going. I think he avoids looking at them at all anymore. But, he also has a habit of spending money on say plumbing repairs or some event and then forgets he spent $500.  We can absorb that here and there, but he tends to repeat and then wonder why some actual bill is late. I got tired of him forgetting or realizing how fast they add up.

So, I can help him with access to the accounts if he really wants it. I can tell him how much I have, but not give access OR let him decide how we’re, or even if we’re, going to use that money. Prior to the constant dysregulation I would have treated it like our money and made joint decisions, but I believe on some level he wants to squander it so I have nothing. It won’t happen.

I’m hoping we can have a reasonable conversation about how he plans to pay bills if he’s not working. Some kind of plan.

Although there is nothing dubious about the accounts, he has proven unreasonable in the past on so many levels, that it just leaves me knowing it’s going to get ugly. That said, when he’s not in this state, he can be more reasonable and able to problem solve. He doesn’t live there much anymore.

He didn’t bring it up again, so idk if it was a threat or he really wants to. I will be ready to leave if it turns.

[UBPDHelp]

Hi BabyDucks, let me start by saying, you’re advice always helps. Thank you.

Hi UBPDHelp,

I am sure this came as quite the shock.    I am sure this was a blow.    Did you take a few minutes to do some self care?    Did you do some deep breathing to help settle you?    That's my first suggestion.    because it's always my first suggestion.   self care. self care. self care.     babyducks being repetitive.   in the plane they always tell you to put on your oxygen mask first.    I hope you put on your oxygen mask.

He may or may not do this.    He has not been accurately reporting information for at least 7 months now (from what you have posted.)     He may be becoming this self destructive.    The last you said were the papers hadn't arrived.   Have they turned up?     Take a couple of deep calming breaths.    I know that is hard to do.   I would suggest that not everything he says is the 100% gospel truth.    this is another form of abuse.    threatening behavior around money and finances is economic abuse.     he may or may not do this.    he may threaten a new form of abuse since his old standard is not working as well for him.

Yep, he’s been fairly abusive around money before. Mostly the last couple of years. I don’t like financial uncertainty, especially preventable uncertainty. He knows that. Another area I shared my feelings because I trusted him and he uses it against me. So I do believe that he does this sometimes to make me unsettled. Honestly, one of my biggest regrets is allowing myself to be financially dependent on him because I’m stuck. If my new job pans out, which remains to be seen, I will have more independence, although not fully self supporting. I almost want this more than anything b/c less bs to be had.

And, I hear ya. It is possible that he’s trying this new tactic b/c I refuse to listen to the old stuff. But, it’s also very real that he’s had no money for two months with no end in sight.

He told me that he’s refusing to sign them. But, he accidentally cc:d me on an email (my email is similar to his accountants) where you can see in the thread that the papers aren’t expected until next week (I don’t think he realizes it yet, I deleted). H doesn’t reply anything in the exchange. It is all one-sided from his partner. They do speak on the phone so I am somewhat basing it on that. I’ve heard him on those calls too.  He can be quite vicious that direction as well. All sounds completely nuts.

I remember you were looking for a lawyer.     How is that going?    I know there is a lot for you to handle now but I would push this to the top of your list.    A safety plan includes a financial safety plan.    right?   deliberately destroying the family financially requires legal advice.    detailed specific to your location and situation legal counsel.   that is suggestion two.

I have some names. H has been around all week, so I haven’t been able to get an hour to make a private call.

Agree on the deliberately destroying. Pandemic is outside his control, his refusal to work (at all) remotely or if he wants to change, start looking is really the kicker. And, then to rant and rage at me and break things. Leaves virtually zero compassion.

I need to think how to make this happen.

Don't read in.     Don't use disaster vision to predict things that may or may not happen.    People (all people) who live in abusive households become hyper vigilant.    they over function.    over do.    trying to avoid and evade the rage and the anger.    the technical name for it is "Catastrophizing".    Yes this is a bad threat.    Work like the dickens to try and keep it right sized.  Try like mad to stay in the moment.    Has he mentioned your account?    At this point how much does it matter if he gets pissed off about access?    Does he really need to know how much is there?    Is it more responsible or less responsible to share this information with him?

One hundred percent. Hyper vigilant and erratic and crazed. Those are all my constant states of being. Having plan b and c does help. Where the line is to implement is hazy at best, but I’m still working on it. As the chance of returning to more normal gets closer, I feel slight hope.

He needs to know what I have because he wants to use that to live while he sorts his life out. I’m going to tell him what I’m willing to do and what I’m not. And if I don’t tell him, he will be set off. No doubt. It would be out of custom for last 25 years. But, he did not specifically ask and didn’t bring up accounts again. Years of experience and I know he will twist it and it will be bad if he pursues it.

All in all, I know he’s lied to me a few times recently. No idea what will happen. Stay tuned.

One of the senior members on the legal board often says "beware of being too much the nice guy".    It's a valid comment.      You do not have to be reasonable and accommodating to some one who is threatening you.

Agree.  I can’t jump too far, but I am trying to not react and hold my ground on a few boundaries. Agree on threatening. I would do anything for my family, including him, if it was a two way street. I am not willing to blindly support his demands and be treated this way. Nope.

Thanks again.  I’m praying for a peaceful day today. See what happens.

[UBPDHelp]

No real update. Yesterday was fairly quiet and H behaved fairly okay. He’s on auto play with movies/tv shows and rewatching favorites.  Was open to something else when I expressed I was going elsewhere as I could not keep watching the same thing. But this will be short lived. The controlling is so apparent when there is no break.

I am nervous about this week. It is as BabyDucks says — catastrophizing.  I know I’m on edge expecting problems, but also believe it inevitable and want to be prepared.

And speaking of control, here is an example of a type of little thing I could use help with. Don’t even know if the little stuff matters when there’s big stuff, or if getting rid of this kind of thing is a lesson for both of us and allows the focus to stay on more important. Thoughts?

So I make a lot of daily lists for myself. I have a small electronic list device that fits in my pocket. Sometimes I don’t have a pocket and I’ll toss the device inside my top (no judgements please  ). I don’t leave it there but if I’m doing stuff, will just tuck it in. So I did this yesterday. It makes H annoyed, he thinks it’s autistic behavior (I don’t even know where to start with this).  So as I walk in, he just gives me a look. Not imagined. He will stare and then catch my eye and then look down at my device and a nod. He won’t say anything (anymore), just really stare.

I used to say, oh, sorry, forgot.  Wasn’t really sorry, but more like haha, silly me. I absolutely don’t see this as a big deal (tucking the device) and think it’s nonsense that he cares. He is “concerned” about me losing it. History of dementia in my family, which is a concern of mine, so he’s feigning concern. He just doesn’t like it.

So yesterday he did the stare and nod and I just ignored it. He wouldn’t let up staring (I almost laughed as he contorted his head in an exaggerated way) and then he just said something like, what’s going on with the device?  I told him I put it there when my hands are full. He’s like that’s stupid or something. And then I tell him I can’t take him seriously when  he’s sitting there with his shirt half unbuttoned and his fly down.

He unbuttoned the rest of his shirt and his pants and sat there the rest of the night like that. Sadly, this gave me a small bit of happiness, and a small reprieve from the actual stress.

So, what would be a better way to handle and are these kinds of things even worth it when there are bigger fish to fry?

[babyducks]

One hundred percent. Hyper vigilant and erratic and crazed. Those are all my constant states of being. Having plan b and c does help.

Oh my.     This doesn't sound at all good.   I mentioned a book upstream.   Stop Caretaking by Margalis Fjelstad Phd.   She said this in the book:  (she uses the term Caretaker to describe us)

It doesn't take long for Caretakers to develop a strong reaction of hypervigilance when in a relationship with a BP/NP.    This means you are always on the alert, watching the BP/NP for any nuance of change in mood or feeling because these can be so quick and volatile from one extreme to another.   As a Caretaker you may think that your job  to soothe and calm the BP/NP will be easier if you anticipate and head off negative and explosive reactions...Hypervigilance can be exhausting and can lead to an increase in feelings of trepidation, anxiety and even a sense of doom.    It is essentially being on high danger alert all the time.  It takes a toll.

oh she put that so well didn't she?    there is a real nuance here to be pulled apart and looked at.   I didn't mean to imply that there won't be serious negative consequences from his not working and if he decides to let the business go.   there will be.   of course there will be.     and we can talk about that of course.

still, let's look at the other parts of this.     you have been locked in a cycle of conflict with him for quite a while now.   your story of the electronic list device illustrates that.  there is a lot of high negative emotion in that exchange.   there are threads here on how to break the cycle of conflict.    but for simplicity sakes I am going to boil them down into; find a way to get to a balanced place in your mind.   get to that balanced place in your mind and be broadly aware of your real long term goals and not just your painful emotion of the moment. (It is important to practice now, so you can get there in situations of duress.)   act from the balanced place in your mind.    

So I make a lot of daily lists for myself. I have a small electronic list device that fits in my pocket. Sometimes I don’t have a pocket and I’ll toss the device inside my top (no judgements please  ). I don’t leave it there but if I’m doing stuff, will just tuck it in. So I did this yesterday. It makes H annoyed, he thinks it’s autistic behavior (I don’t even know where to start with this).

let's stop here and look at this.    here comes the cycle of conflict.   this looks more like two kids fighting than an adult mature normal conflict.   always a big clue that dysfunction is afoot.    this looks like a trigger for you because you are willing to pick up the argument.   or as FF would say ... you are already accepting the bait in your head.   90 percent of all arguments with a BP/NP are about who is the better person, who is the worse person,   who is more deserving, who is less deserving.   if you go read any thread here that describes an argument, at the core, it will be  about who is better,  who is more deserving.

  what if you moved into your balanced calm mind... not the hyper crazed and erratic emotions and instead of "I don't know where to start with this"... told yourself "I recognize this...it's the I am Better Than You game... and I don't want to play"  

So as I walk in, he just gives me a look. Not imagined. He will stare and then catch my eye and then look down at my device and a nod. He won’t say anything (anymore), just really stare.

I don't think you are imagining this at all.    you are clearly not given to hyperbole.   I am sure the look is intense and aggressive.    

I used to say, oh, sorry, forgot.  Wasn’t really sorry, but more like haha, silly me. I absolutely don’t see this as a big deal (tucking the device) and think it’s nonsense that he cares. He is “concerned” about me losing it. History of dementia in my family, which is a concern of mine, so he’s feigning concern. He just doesn’t like it.

oopppffff.    look at the conflict in this.  look at the emotion in this.   both sides of the argument are generating negativity.

So yesterday he did the stare and nod and I just ignored it. He wouldn’t let up staring (I almost laughed as he contorted his head in an exaggerated way) and then he just said something like, what’s going on with the device?  I told him I put it there when my hands are full.

you might have not verbally responded but you didn't ignore the stare.    you knew he contorted his head in an exaggerated way.    it's hyper vigilance to his negative emotions generating negative emotions in you.  it takes practice to detach from this type of negativity.  

He’s like that’s stupid or something. And then I tell him I can’t take him seriously when  he’s sitting there with his shirt half unbuttoned and his fly down.

and boom.   full blown, out in the open conflict.  

He unbuttoned the rest of his shirt and his pants and sat there the rest of the night like that. Sadly, this gave me a small bit of happiness, and a small reprieve from the actual stress.

Yes.   It provided a small bit of happiness and a small reprieve because you won the Better Than You game.   at least temporarily.   the only real way to win is to not play the game.

So, what would be a better way to handle and are these kinds of things even worth it when there are bigger fish to fry?

• become aware of what triggers you and when you are triggered
• practice moving from an emotional reactive state to what we call a wise mind or balanced state.

• identify when you are reacting in an emotional way that adds to the anxiety and tension.
• identify ways to express your emotions in a safe way in a safe and supportive environment

well that's a lot a digest.      hope it helps.

'ducks

[UBPDHelp]

Oh my.     This doesn't sound at all good.   I mentioned a book upstream.   Stop Caretaking by Margalis Fjelstad Phd.   She said this in the book:  (she uses the term Caretaker to describe us)

oh she put that so well didn't she?    there is a real nuance here to be pulled apart and looked at.   I didn't mean to imply that there won't be serious negative consequences from his not working and if he decides to let the business go.   there will be.   of course there will be.     and we can talk about that of course.

Yes, this is good. I’m trying to get the book safely on a device. Occasionally he uses my tablet, pretty rarely and not extended but I’m trying to figure out how to hide it so he doesn’t stumble on it. Leaning towards a book app and deleting app everyday. Any ideas?

still, let's look at the other parts of this.     you have been locked in a cycle of conflict with him for quite a while now.   your story of the electronic list device illustrates that.  there is a lot of high negative emotion in that exchange.   there are threads here on how to break the cycle of conflict.    but for simplicity sakes I am going to boil them down into; find a way to get to a balanced place in your mind.   get to that balanced place in your mind and be broadly aware of your real long term goals and not just your painful emotion of the moment. (It is important to practice now, so you can get there in situations of duress.)   act from the balanced place in your mind.    

let's stop here and look at this.    here comes the cycle of conflict.   this looks more like two kids fighting than an adult mature normal conflict.   always a big clue that dysfunction is afoot.    this looks like a trigger for you because you are willing to pick up the argument.   or as FF would say ... you are already accepting the bait in your head.   90 percent of all arguments with a BP/NP are about who is the better person, who is the worse person,   who is more deserving, who is less deserving.   if you go read any thread here that describes an argument, at the core, it will be  about who is better,  who is more deserving.

Yes, cycle of conflict. It sux and I don’t enjoy this at all. First little things that I let slide, then got to be too much and I didn’t know tools and now it is all-encompassing and especially now being stuck together for 5-6 weeks with virtually no break (even week of no speaking was intense on edge).

I honestly consider us equals and both have deserving, albeit different, needs. But, he does not respect, believe I have needs about 95% of the time. So, it’s asserting my needs that is the crux, I suppose, of these little mini dramas.

 what if you moved into your balanced calm mind... not the hyper crazed and erratic emotions and instead of "I don't know where to start with this"... told yourself "I recognize this...it's the I am Better Than You game... and I don't want to play"

I try to do this everyday. But, when I know he’s coming, I definitely jump into high gear. But, even now I’m making a concerted effort to not jump.

He’s back to demanding control of tv. He seems to need this right now so I’m just relinquishing. But, it also feels like I either accept these types of things or it’s over. Not his demand, but my willingness, or lack there of, to live like this. Pandemic is making these more difficult, but I certainly failed for years before.  

I don't think you are imagining this at all.    you are clearly not given to hyperbole.   I am sure the look is intense and aggressive.  

Definitely not imagining. So intense and exaggerated.  

  look at the conflict in this.  look at the emotion in this.   both sides of the argument are generating negativity.

you might have not verbally responded but you didn't ignore the stare.    you knew he contorted his head in an exaggerated way.    it's hyper vigilance to his negative emotions generating negative emotions in you.  it takes practice to detach from this type of negativity.  

and boom.   full blown, out in the open conflict.

Yes, I have been ignoring (or as FF says, not taking the bait).  I have genuinely ignored snide comments, weird actions, etc., just to not give them fuel.  But, the hypocrisy got the best of me and truthfully, he would not have let it go if I didn’t respond. His aggressive looks and gestures would have been verbalized and then I guess I could have just left. But, I’m getting tired of trying to teach him to behave as an adult. He doesn’t. Definitely a two year old.

Yes.   It provided a small bit of happiness and a small reprieve because you won the Better Than You game.   at least temporarily.   the only real way to win is to not play the game.

I can see what you mean. In reality it wasn’t happiness that he sat there with his shirt unbuttoned and his pants undone, but just at the opportunity to point out the hypocrisy.

There are no winners in this game. And I’m starting to see that it’s basically every aspect of my life that’s a game, so means there is no win.

• become aware of what triggers you and when you are triggered
• practice moving from an emotional reactive state to what we call a wise mind or balanced state.

• identify when you are reacting in an emotional way that adds to the anxiety and tension.
• identify ways to express your emotions in a safe way in a safe and supportive environment

well that's a lot a digest.      hope it helps.

It does help. And I have been working on being balanced and not reacting.  He definitely is throwing out all the stops trying to get a reaction.

I just want this pandemic over and some space to think clearly. I don’t feel like long-term planning is overly helpful b/c so much uncertainty right now. Will he have a job?  Will he be less stressed if he does?  Will he continue to recognize he has a problem?  Will he seek help (guess is big no)?  

I’ll keep the list handy and work at it everyday.  Thanks BabyDucks.

[babyducks]

hmmmmm,   how do you feel about taking a step back and looking at some of this again?   

lets look on the focus on him.      what he is or isn't going to do?    has making your life dependent on his behavior proven helpful?   has predicting his actions, emotions brought stability to you?   

He does not respect, believe I have needs about 95% of the time.

He’s back to demanding control

He seems to need this right now

But, I’m getting tired of trying to teach him to behave as an adult. He doesn’t. Definitely a two year old.

He definitely is throwing out all the stops trying to get a reaction.

Will he have a job?  

Will he be less stressed if he does?

 Will he continue to recognize he has a problem?  

Will he seek help (guess is big no)?  

can we shift the focus to be slightly more about you?

How can I work to get my needs better met?   

How can I change things so there is more balance about who is control of .. things ... the relationship...?

How can I not enable bad behavior?

How can I be the emotional family leader, caring of my husband but not for him?

How can I address my feelings so I am not reacting to him throwing out all the stops?

How can I move to protect my and the kids financially?   Lawyer?    When will it be reasonable to do so?

If I learn to not react emotionally to his threats will that reduce the relationship stress level and help us both to function more effectively?

Can I help create an atmosphere were it is more safe/comfortable for him to seek help?

Is it important for me to lessen the volatility in our communications as a long term goal?    Regardless of the relationship future can I lessen negativity to make problem solving even slightly better?     Am I beyond making this effort?

'ducks

[formflier]

 90 percent of all arguments with a BP/NP are about who is the better person, who is the worse person,   who is more deserving, who is less deserving.   if you go read any thread here that describes an argument, at the core, it will be  about who is better,  who is more deserving.

So...for me it has been helpful to suggestion or "wonder aloud" about objective solutions rather than debating the merits (which is a close cousin to who is better).

When suggesting those..try to keep them equal.  If there is a suggestion of unequal from him, be perplexed but don't debate it.  (like you can't imagine why either of you would set themselves apart)


"Are you suggesting we give each other control of our clothing choices?"  Most likely he will "just want to control this one thing".

your response.."Oh.."

That's it.

Or something like that.

Note:  Just consider this for now.  The temperature seems to be down in your house.  Take all our ideas and sit with them for a while and let others have input.

The biggest thing is that when you do make a change...that YOU believe in it and understand the underlying reasons/goals.

Different thought.

I'd sure feel better if you would find a way to call that lawyer...   Maybe you could hide your phone in your...

Bad FF...Bad..

Best,

FF
 

[Cat Familiar]

Totally awesome suggestions from ‘ducks. Between her and FF, you’re getting some great coaching.

I will add just one key element that I notice and understand, having been in a relationship with my former husband, who was an abusive pwBPD/NPD.

Your self esteem is easily triggered by this man. His comments are meant to diminish you and you fall into the trap. Even saying something like “silly me” is an example of how you feel less than after one of these encounters with him.

I want to give you an image that I saw many years ago that has stuck with me. I was at the beach and saw a Japanese mother playing in the surf with her son, who was about three. Mother and son were running back and forth as the waves reached the shore. It was joyful watching them. She had stuck his toy truck in her bikini top, so her hands were free. There was not an iota of self consciousness about her.

[UBPDHelp]

Totally awesome suggestions from ‘ducks. Between her and FF, you’re getting some great coaching.

I will add just one key element that I notice and understand, having been in a relationship with my former husband, who was an abusive pwBPD/NPD.

Your self esteem is easily triggered by this man. His comments are meant to diminish you and you fall into the trap. Even saying something like “silly me” is an example of how you feel less than after one of these encounters with him.

I want to give you an image that I saw many years ago that has stuck with me. I was at the beach and saw a Japanese mother playing in the surf with her son, who was about three. Mother and son were running back and forth as the waves reached the shore. It was joyful watching them. She had stuck his toy truck in her bikini top, so her hands were free. There was not an iota of self consciousness about her.

Thanks Cat.  I do understand this and long for the days I could go about my day without commentary. And, being stuck with so much time together, all the dysfunction, mine included, is so apparent. In my defense, I am reacting to and predicting his behavior. We all are. I honestly don’t know how he has the energy to be in a constant state of giving a sh!t what I’m wearing or what I’m watching on tv or what I’m reading or what I’m eating. Just knowing that whatever it is, I’m doing it wrong.

Right now I’m just trying to get through. He’s panicked that things will never be the same. He got some “good” news today that they are opening his industry up partly over the next few weeks (wasn’t really closed, just in person, but he’s been behaving like he couldn’t work). Not fully and it will be different than before. He’s convinced he can’t do it that way and that life is over because even if we come out of this, there will be a new pandemic and then another one. End of times. Idk, maybe?

I try to reassure him. He doesn’t want to hear it. Doesn’t think I know anything he doesn’t and that I wouldn’t understand it if I did. I watched the news and I saw this coming...only reason we still have toilet paper from being inside for over 5 weeks. It’s not an I told you so, or that I’m better, it’s not. Just that I’m not a complete idiot like he sometimes tries to paint me out to be.

He brought up paying bills basically just pay only what we have to. Yes, okay, where have you been?  He was gloom and doom, world ending stuff, so it wasn’t the time to go into detail with him.

Tomorrow or the next day I plan to streamline what decisions need to be made and ask him to help me figure it out. Hopefully it will gently make him realize the financial bind he’s putting us in.

I know I’ve had suggestions to limit it to one thing, but at this rate, it will be months before we can get to it all.  So, just a couple of big ones and acknowledgment that the path I’ve chosen on lesser ones makes sense.

Know that may be opening up issues, so I’ll work on the best wording to present — AND I’m open to wordsmithing suggestions .  Ultimately, while not ideal, still believe it is best to get as much done in one sitting as possible.

Thanks for all the patient help. I drive myself nutty sometimes, so I’m certain I’ve challenged you all.  I hope with less chaos, there is a clearer head. I really feel like I can’t think straight at all.

Small win — lots of stinky bait thrown my way.  Ignored it all and just enjoyed my evening. He seemed to settle a bit.  Tomorrow is a new day!

[formflier]

I try to reassure him. He doesn’t want to hear it. 

This is likely an "invalidating" and strategic mistake.

Him:  "The moon is blue and the alien horde is about to pop out."

You:  "Aliens are make believe and the moon reflects the suns light, there really isn't a color."

(you do see how reassuring him is "opposite" of his internal feelings.)

I'm not saying "match his intensity" or agree with him.  I am saying you should be on the same "side of neutral" as him.

So..if he is a negative 6 you can be a negative 2.

you: "I can't believe it either.  Very troubling. (pause)  What can be done?"

Notice you don't demand a solution or suggest one either.  The "door is cracked" for him to think of a solution.

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

I honestly don’t know how he has the energy to be in a constant state of giving a sh!t what I’m wearing or what I’m watching on tv or what I’m reading or what I’m eating. 

Because pathologically narcissistic people operate from self-protection all the time.    All the time.    How can we better help you come to terms with this?    What would be an approach to understanding that works for you?

Know that may be opening up issues, so I’ll work on the best wording to present — AND I’m open to wordsmithing suggestions .  Ultimately, while not ideal, still believe it is best to get as much done in one sitting as possible.

create as much emotional detachment as you can with the words you pick.    neutral descriptions.    non judgmental reciting of the facts.     keep things in the moment,  describe the now... not what might happen.    avoid blame.     Brief.  Informative.  Firm.    Friendly.

'ducks

[formflier]

Mix all those things Ducks was talking about with a healthy dose of "kicking the can down the road".  Especially if you really do need to think through something.

For me I had some luck with a conversation where I verified I had the issues right (without judgment) and revisiting the conversation later.

There were some complaints about "why can't you just tell me" to which I would say something like "Well...it seems important you to so I believe it deserves my best efforts, wouldn't you agree?"

"Oh just tell me quick." to which I would switch to "If you have to make a decision now I'm sure you will make a good one."

Consistently "presenting" the help I am able to provide has somewhat "trained" my wife to know what to expect.

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Hi BabyDucks,

Can’t explain it, but I did not see this reply yesterday...and it’s a good and helpful one.

hmmmmm,   how do you feel about taking a step back and looking at some of this again?

Yes, open to it. I just want to mention a couple things — first, I state what he says (or some what I know he’s thinking b/c it’s been voiced many times before) and secondly, I know most is not correct and my snide reply is not helpful. I should have been more clear that for the most part I am sharing my feelings here but have not actually said these things to him. I know it’s not the right time for him on most of this and I know I’m feeling uneasy (his threats, real or imagined, and just cooped up pandemic wise myself) so I know I would not be delivering the message well.  So, yes, I am in a negative headspace with him, but for the most part he’s not aware of it.

lets look on the focus on him.      what he is or isn't going to do?    has making your life dependent on his behavior proven helpful?   has predicting his actions, emotions brought stability to you?

Terribly.  And the 100s of times I’ve said, okay, I’ll do this one thing and it will be better and then there’s always the next thing. A loong time ago he accused me of never being happy.  I was so confused and now all these years ago realize that may have been his first projection. Truth is, I wake up everyday HOPEFUL and happy and feeling blessed for my family and my life. And granted it’s somewhat normal to get on each other’s nerves spending this much time together, it’s really opened my eyes to what I’ve accepted.

I don’t solely blame him. I so much blame myself for not respecting myself enough to expect better.

can we shift the focus to be slightly more about you?

How can I work to get my needs better met?  

How can I change things so there is more balance about who is control of .. things ... the relationship...?

How can I not enable bad behavior?

How can I be the emotional family leader, caring of my husband but not for him?

How can I address my feelings so I am not reacting to him throwing out all the stops?

How can I move to protect my and the kids financially?   Lawyer?    When will it be reasonable to do so?

If I learn to not react emotionally to his threats will that reduce the relationship stress level and help us both to function more effectively?

Can I help create an atmosphere were it is more safe/comfortable for him to seek help?

Is it important for me to lessen the volatility in our communications as a long term goal?    Regardless of the relationship future can I lessen negativity to make problem solving even slightly better?     Am I beyond making this effort?

All good, all agreeable, all amazing goals.

I am not reacting to his sh!t (negative, yes, all encompassing, yes — forgive me).  I’ve been called a rube, an idiot and told he’s going to no mans land and may never return — just this morning. And that’s a good day. It’s just quick reactions to slight irritations on his part. Most not really having anything to do with me.

Yes, I’ll try to call the lawyer this week.  It will be hard but I’ll see if I can make it happen.

And yes, I am starting to believe I am too far beyond making an effort. I have to get by while we’re stuck in the house. But, I would have at least appreciated a partner right now. And, I do not believe he will ever stop the control or name calling. But, I am not reacting.

I do wish there was a response that was more “active” than just ignoring. Any thoughts?

Thank you...have to run. More to say...more to think about. Thanks again!

[UBPDHelp]

Hi FF,

I missed this one, too. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

This is likely an "invalidating" and strategic mistake.

Him:  "The moon is blue and the alien horde is about to pop out."

You:  "Aliens are make believe and the moon reflects the suns light, there really isn't a color."

(you do see how reassuring him is "opposite" of his internal feelings.)

I'm not saying "match his intensity" or agree with him.  I am saying you should be on the same "side of neutral" as him.

So..if he is a negative 6 you can be a negative 2.

you: "I can't believe it either.  Very troubling. (pause)  What can be done?"

Notice you don't demand a solution or suggest one either.  The "door is cracked" for him to think of a solution.

I do try to not invalidate but do have a hard time not trying to make him feel better. Some of what he is saying is outlandish, imo. I am NOT trying to be judgmental, I just need to understand how to reel end of world stuff to more reasonable. And, I feel better knowing there are actions being taken to thwart Coronavirus being end of world.

But, I do hear you that he sees this as invalidating. Only him.  It’s the same conversation I’ve had with 10 other people and no one else reacts this way and half of them are saying it to me, so I know it’s not faulty perspective on my part. It is hard to switch gears to “his” type of conversation.  I’m NOT perfect, I can stick my foot in my mouth even with the most understanding of souls, but I’m not certain I can live trying this hard.  

But, as BabyDucks said, I have to focus on me and what I AM going to do. And, as you’ve told me how many times?  A million?  Act rather than react. Agree.  Focus and keep working on it. Find a place I CAN live.

Short on time...going to catch up on anything else I’ve missed soon.

Thanks, as always, for your help and support!

[formflier]

but I’m not certain I can live trying this hard.  
 

I'm going to keep on you here for a bit! 

"Trying this hard" is likely coming from a place of trying to figure out what TO say.  I'm really hoping that you can make a shift where your default is "conserving energy" (how does that affect trying to hard?) and saying very little.

Embrace your own silence and enjoy "keeping the energy in"..

Plus...for the times you do say something, that extra silence and time will help you "respond" vice "react".

Make sense?

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

I'm going to keep on you here for a bit! 

"Trying this hard" is likely coming from a place of trying to figure out what TO say.  I'm really hoping that you can make a shift where your default is "conserving energy" (how does that affect trying to hard?) and saying very little.

Embrace your own silence and enjoy "keeping the energy in"..

Plus...for the times you do say something, that extra silence and time will help you "respond" vice "react".

Make sense?

It all makes sense.  And I enjoy not reacting, but need work on the response. And, I struggle with making sense when I’m in the middle of an episode. I have a harder time when it’s happening. Sometimes I can just not react to his swirling about, other times this will incite him more.

And, he hasn’t done much this past week, so I know I’m truly dealing with a lot of pent up resentment, frustration that we’re in this limbo state at the moment and financial concerns (that he is just ignoring).  It’s not that he hasn’t said mean, rude things, but you know it’s bad when you’re just “back to normal” because he may be ranting but he hasn’t broken anything.

For the most part he has not directly attacked my past in the last few weeks.  I think he’s just as much off his “game” because he can blame the pandemic for his feelings right now. I’d like to think he learned that boundary, but believe that is wishful thinking.

I do get some relief when I just don’t spin with him and there may be a hint he’s starting to not get anything out of my lack of reaction. Sometimes it’s hard, but I am getting there.

Some examples I would love constructive criticism...

Tonight we had plans to watch a movie with our oldest. Son requested a specific snack, which I made.  It was slightly fragrant.  Not stinky, but distinct. H is upset that I’m making this snack (I didn’t really want to either, but son rarely asks, so I obliged) and starts dramatically (and loudly) saying it smells up the house and then proceeds to open a couple of doors and all the windows on one side of the house. All very dramatically banging things. Absolute overkill. And it’s cold outside. I just ignored his drama and finished up snack making and sat on the couch happy as a clam to watch the movie. No reaction, which is different from what I would have done before. He sat for a bit and then started closing stuff up. Before I would have told him it wasn’t necessary to open everything, etc., and he would have later told me to close up since I am the one who made it smell.  So, maybe I got lucky or maybe no reaction worked. Thoughts?

In conversation with the family (us and older teo), I made a comment about a tv character that H didn’t agree with. He starts that it’s his show and I don’t know what I’m talking about. Having stupid conversation of no consequence to our life, just entertainment. Then he says “why are you here?”  I ignored it and he went along. But, this is where I don’t know that not reacting is the right approach?  I feel that he may just see it as reinforcement that it’s okay to speak to me that way. Thoughts?

Although it has been calmer for a couple of days, it’s the above example that repeats throughout the day that just has begun to feel too oppressive. Is it we’re just getting on each other’s nerves more as we’ve never spent 6 weeks with zero break from each other before now? Doesn’t explain the magnitude of his pre-pandemic behaviors, but I’m questioning my clarity right now, especially because I feel like I’m reaching my limit.

And yet I admit that right now I’m upset with his lack of concern over the financial peril he is putting us in and feeling that stress. But again, the financial push-pull has been ongoing to different degrees for a long time.