How to reconcile "protective dishonesty"

[UBPDHelp]

This thread is continued from this discussion:https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=344343.30

Also, read the thread on values and boundaries. All true.

But, I want to be clear, he doesn’t go around saying these things all the time, or even often.  He gets frustrated (too many choices, someone not understanding his point) and then lashes out in a scandalous way.  Maybe scandalous isn’t the right word. He wants to make a memorable point so he says something you can’t forget.

And this all goes back to my search for what normal is. I know it’s not one thing, but more where does this fall in the range/parameters of normal. Am I being too sensitive?

Secondly, the lesson on values brings up another issue I struggle with slightly. I am pretty honest — large part of why H has an issue with my past. I tell friends if one of our kids did something kid-like. H tells big stories about how the kids are perfect, smarter, better, faster, more well-liked, etc. He doesn’t like me to be forthcoming about the truth. This is to family and close friends. Kids ARE pretty great, but they do some kid stuff, too. Learned not to tell anyone.

Anyway, over the years I’ve shielded H from things partially cuz he loses his temper but mostly because I didn’t want to deal with his reaction and could take care of myself. This has now made me dishonest. I know it wasn’t the right choice, but at the time(s) I didn’t want to deal with his reaction.

And, then of course, I start to question that I’m the one with bpd.  I’m certain I don’t but do question some behaviors I’ve acquired and know that I probably have a few traits.

I’m not sure if there’s a question but would love any thoughts on how to reconcile “protective dishonesty”.  Ugh.

[babyducks]

I am tired.

what did you do for self care today UBPDHelp?   How are you replenishing your batteries during this stressful time?   what nice thing did you do for yourself today?   

Like who talks like this? 

a person with a low amount of empathy.    a person with a high amount of grandiosity.    a person who has to agitate his environment to feel complete.  a person who has to put others down to feel good about himself.

How does it stop?  

why do you think it's going to stop?   what makes you believe there is the potential for it stopping?

she shouldn’t have tampons in her bag because it might be a turn on to the TSA agent. What?  Is this even appropriate to an 18 yo?

No.    that's not appropriate.   not even close.

 

But tell me, do most people talk about tits and asses to their wife and/or teen kids?  Am I off base?

not usually no.    the examples you are providing are pretty ugly.    You are not off base.

 

And this all goes back to my search for what normal is. I know it’s not one thing, but more where does this fall in the range/parameters of normal. Am I being too sensitive?

No.    You are not being too sensitive.    You are probably not being sensitive enough.   Sensitive to your feelings, wants and needs.    His behavior has been normalized at your expense.

 

And, then of course, I start to question that I’m the one with bpd.  I’m certain I don’t but do question some behaviors I’ve acquired and know that I probably have a few traits.

all of us have the same traits that a person with BPD have,  the difference is the degree of intensity,  and the harm they cause in our lives.   you do not have BPD.

 

I’m not sure if there’s a question but would love any thoughts on how to reconcile “protective dishonesty”.  Ugh.

false equivalency.     you are not the same as your husband.   your ~bad~ behaviors fall with in the range of normal ordinary responses.

my two cents.
'ducks

[formflier]

I’m not sure if there’s a question but would love any thoughts on how to reconcile “protective dishonesty”.  Ugh.

Time for blunt talk.  Also would like others to weigh in on how they dealt with this.

Many of us "nons" came her with great confusion about "honesty" and "openness" as compared to "privacy".

I figured my wife and I were supposed to be close so I had very little filter.  This worked well for a number of years, yet when things went off the rails I doubled down on "honesty" and it turned out to be "invalidating" and made things worse.

I really doubt you are being "dishonest".  I think we should examine this more.  I think that you are keeping things private and that is very uncomfortable to you, combined with his accusations/episodes...I think you "feel dishonest".

Maybe you could share some examples.

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

what did you do for self care today UBPDHelp?   How are you replenishing your batteries during this stressful time?   what nice thing did you do for yourself today?   

a person with a low amount of empathy.    a person with a high amount of grandiosity.    a person who has to agitate his environment to feel complete.  a person who has to put others down to feel good about himself.

why do you think it's going to stop?   what makes you believe there is the potential for it stopping?

No.    that's not appropriate.   not even close.

 
not usually no.    the examples you are providing are pretty ugly.    You are not off base.

 
No.    You are not being too sensitive.    You are probably not being sensitive enough.   Sensitive to your feelings, wants and needs.    His behavior has been normalized at your expense.

 
all of us have the same traits that a person with BPD have,  the difference is the degree of intensity,  and the harm they cause in our lives.   you do not have BPD.

 
false equivalency.     you are not the same as your husband.   your ~bad~ behaviors fall with in the range of normal ordinary responses.

my two cents.
'ducks

Thanks BabyDucks. I value your opinion so much. Honest and forthcoming. What I need. And you understand I can’t see clearly at all.

Thank you for letting me know where I’m on the right track and where I’m off base.

To answer why I think it could/would stop is simply because he CAN control it. So, can I identify the why, and within reason avoid that, to prevent this. Or, can I respond (leaving, etc.) that will assist in changing this behavior.

I suspect you’re leading me to recognize the magnitude of denial I’ve been in. Wondering if your simply waiting for me to realize the inevitable. I’ve seen it, maybe I just don’t want to face it?

Back to pondering. I’m working through splitting and stop caretaking.

Also, hope to be rescheduled this week with HC divorce attorney. Trying to figure out how much to share in an initial meeting or if to even bring up this aspect from the get go. This is some level of self care as even though not fun, provides a small sense of control, and I need to feel some of that.

Thanks again.

[formflier]

Boundaries:

Right now when your hubby talks about (fill in the blank) what do you do and say?

Now that you know some about tools and boundaries...what do you think you should do and say in the future?  (maybe just a first step)

I'm glad he doesn't do this often.  This should make it easier to have a victory here.  This will embolden you to use tools and take back your power.

Note:  My wife grew up in a much more conservative or threatening type of religious/sexual environment.  I see a lot of rebellion in her siblings and cousins because of it.  

She clearly got the sex outside of marriage bad and inside marriage good, although many of her reactions are not typical for most women.  She has been described by my P as "hypersexual" and arguments/things that would make most women withdraw seem to attract her to me.  

Anyway...I did some boundary work around sex and arguments and it helped  a bunch, although initially it was quite..."interesting".

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Time for blunt talk.  Also would like others to weigh in on how they dealt with this.

Many of us "nons" came her with great confusion about "honesty" and "openness" as compared to "privacy".

I figured my wife and I were supposed to be close so I had very little filter.  This worked well for a number of years, yet when things went off the rails I doubled down on "honesty" and it turned out to be "invalidating" and made things worse.

I really doubt you are being "dishonest".  I think we should examine this more.  I think that you are keeping things private and that is very uncomfortable to you, combined with his accusations/episodes...I think you "feel dishonest".

Maybe you could share some examples.

Examples

Fudging the amount of a bill and moving funds around to cover it. Nothing nefarious, just not up for a rant that the plumber is a scam artist.

Not telling him the extent of my father’s estate. It’s not a lot, but he had little amounts in several places. So not telling him all of these. Normally I would have but the near constant divorce threats and it seemed reasonable to keep some to myself. This feels dishonest.

Keeping “business” conversation going with my sister. Being more cordial with her. I’m not telling him this. He sees her as a threat. This has been framed around some of her less than sisterly previous conduct. Things I would get over but H has kept alive. I can’t go too far with her until I make a final decision. He would never allow us to have a relationship.  I don’t mean he could stop it, but if you think you’ve seen dysregulation, you’d have seen nothing. This unforgiving attitude I didn’t understand could continue. Anyway, this is dishonest.

I’m pretty sure he’s stalking his hs gf on Facebook. She’s come up a few times recently. He doesn’t share his Facebook, I don’t have one lest my hs bf finds me, so I can’t really see what he’s up to. That’s pretty f’ing dishonest on his part. BUT, thinking she might be who he turns to when he leaves and even though I feel bad dumping him on someone else, can’t help but want his attention elsewhere.

Anyway, those types of things are dishonest. Open to your thoughts. xoxo

[Notwendy]

Looks like I'm late to the thread here, but it seems that boundaries are a big issue here, and both of you are enmeshed to some extent.

I think it's important to distinguish between co-dependent traits and being dependent. Someone could be very independent, self sufficient, but if another person's thoughts, feelings, what they say are able to significantly impact their feelings, then think of it this way- co-dependency means someone's feelings, moods, self image, opinion make a large impact on them and influence their own sense of truth.

I'm not "labelling" you but putting this out there as people in relationships with someone with a disorder often show these traits. To make things complicated, so do people with BPD. If someone says something to them, it can set them into a bad mood or good mood. It's not the same- the response is different. But you can easily have your composure disrupted by something your H says or does, and he can disregulate when someone does the same.

The key here is for you- having good boundaries means being able to distinguish between what is you, and what is not you. So if your H says something lewd about a TV show, he said it, not you. That isn't your issue to fix. You can decide you don't want to watch the show with him and simply say " I need to take a moment" and go do something else. But reacting, responding, trying to explain yourself- that's working on him, not you.

It's hard with children to not clean up spilled food, but if he tosses his food ( this sounds more like a toddler than a grown man), then he gets to clean it up, or even if you clean it, it's his action, not yours.

As to the "dishonesty" question- your business is your business. I can see the conflict with a household bill- your H needs to know the cost of the plumber. If he wants to rant, that's his rant, you don't need to fix it.

You are allowed to talk to your sister. It's your sister.

You have a strong value system, and your ethics are up to you. If you value your relationship with your sister, then have one. It's not his business, and it isn't violating any mariage vow  to talk to your sister.

If he's talking to an old gf on Facebook, that's his decisions. If the two of them run off together, you aren't responsible for that. You don't need to protect her.

As to the children- people with PD's see their children as extensions of themselves, not separate individuals. So when the kids make a mistake, or you talk about one, he sees it at being about him. If he doesn't have a strong self image, it could set him off. He also sees you that way- with poor boundaries between you then you having a different opinion could feel very wrong to him. But it really isn't about him. Maybe he likes chocolate ice cream and you like vanilla. One has nothing to do with the other.

Your "private" "dishonesty" might be more about keeping a boundary than dishonesty. It doesn't feel comfortable to you because, in relationships between people with healthy boundaries- there would not be as much of a need to do this. But your reasons for keeping your father's finances private, or talking to your sister, are not really about him. They are your "gut" feelings telling you this isn't safe to share. As you develop healthier boundaries , you may not feel as much a need for self protection and gain the ability to be more authentic. That's a work in progress.

[UBPDHelp]

Boundaries:

Right now when your hubby talks about (fill in the blank) what do you do and say?

Now that you know some about tools and boundaries...what do you think you should do and say in the future?  (maybe just a first step)

Right now I either ask him to refrain from vulgar language or I simply ignore. His response depends on his mood and which way the wind is blowing. Total crap shoot.

I think going forward I’ll just leave if he turns to vulgar language. Tell him I’m not comfortable around that language and if it continues, I’ll find something else to do. Do that.

I'm glad he doesn't do this often.  This should make it easier to have a victory here.  This will embolden you to use tools and take back your power.

He doesn’t do comments to the kids often.  He gets annoyed with me far more often and just has his go tos depending on what trigger and available options. Being cooped up in the house and he’s watching raunchy movies a lot. The kind that appeal to 15 yo boys. I don’t mind occasionally, but I don’t need it over and over. 

Note:  My wife grew up in a much more conservative or threatening type of religious/sexual environment.  I see a lot of rebellion in her siblings and cousins because of it.  

She clearly got the sex outside of marriage bad and inside marriage good, although many of her reactions are not typical for most women.  She has been described by my P as "hypersexual" and arguments/things that would make most women withdraw seem to attract her to me.  

Anyway...I did some boundary work around sex and arguments and it helped  a bunch, although initially it was quite..."interesting".

For my H and his siblings it is definitely not practicing what you preach. His mother is pretty self righteous (she married as a teenager) and judgmental. She doesn’t know half the stories her children did. Perhaps typical teenage bs, but the expectation on me and my kids is very judgmental.

I’d be interested in anything you’re willing to share re: boundaries. I don’t need explicit details, but just how you managed to turn the tide, if you’re able to.


Thanks FF

[UBPDHelp]

Looks like I'm late to the thread here, but it seems that boundaries are a big issue here, and both of you are enmeshed to some extent.

I think it's important to distinguish between co-dependent traits and being dependent. Someone could be very independent, self sufficient, but if another person's thoughts, feelings, what they say are able to significantly impact their feelings, then think of it this way- co-dependency means someone's feelings, moods, self image, opinion make a large impact on them and influence their own sense of truth.

I'm not "labelling" you but putting this out there as people in relationships with someone with a disorder often show these traits. To make things complicated, so do people with BPD. If someone says something to them, it can set them into a bad mood or good mood. It's not the same- the response is different. But you can easily have your composure disrupted by something your H says or does, and he can disregulate when someone does the same.

I have not mastered all the terms or concepts and others will probably tell you, I need examples. Ha!

I didn’t come into the relationship needing to be dependent on someone. I was somewhat sheltered having grown up in a smaller town. But, I was pretty self sufficient and able to make decisions and take care of things for myself.

I lost my mom about 2 years into my now H and my relationship. I believe this is where my dependency changed. I believe I clung on to him because I was afraid of losing someone else. Looking back I believe he also saw this as an opportunity to start to take over some control. Those early years are hazy — long time ago, was grieving and honestly I had no idea what I was dealing with. And, even after we married, things weren’t bad the majority of the time.  Just over the more recent years. I can’t say exactly because the more I think back, the more things I start to remember.  Selective memory.

My point is, that we had gone a long time where his episodes were far between, months, maybe 6-7 months and were not total rages. At some point they began coming more often and more intense until going on a year where it has been near constant with only small windows of peace.

Now it’s 4 kids (1 75% self sufficient, 1 getting ready to graduate, 2 still totally dependent), he is the primary breadwinner (working to improve this, jokes on me pandemic) and uncertain of the path forward.

Sorry it took so long to get here. Probably codependent. My feelings are not his, but I do feel like sh!t after getting raged at. So, the distinction I’m making is that I don’t take on his feelings (the neighbor is a jerk) but I feel bad after getting yelled at because I don’t side with him on the neighbor.

Is that the definition of codependency? 

The key here is for you- having good boundaries means being able to distinguish between what is you, and what is not you. So if your H says something lewd about a TV show, he said it, not you. That isn't your issue to fix. You can decide you don't want to watch the show with him and simply say " I need to take a moment" and go do something else. But reacting, responding, trying to explain yourself- that's working on him, not you.

I have been working on boundaries. I honestly feel like I can’t have enough anymore. There are just so many issues. Obviously being cooped up doesn’t help, we’re getting on each other’s nerves. I’m trying to get and give space. It’s also not helping keep my head clear.

It's hard with children to not clean up spilled food, but if he tosses his food ( this sounds more like a toddler than a grown man), then he gets to clean it up, or even if you clean it, it's his action, not yours.

It is hard. And, he acts like the biggest child a lot of the time. It’s frustrating. I made him look at the coffee for a week.

As to the "dishonesty" question- your business is your business. I can see the conflict with a household bill- your H needs to know the cost of the plumber. If he wants to rant, that's his rant, you don't need to fix it.

Agree. If he wasn’t threatening divorce all the time I would have told him. Now, I don’t feel like I should but I still feel like I’m dishonest. It may be acceptable dishonesty, though.

You are allowed to talk to your sister. It's your sister.

This is a bit more complicated. Yes, I should be able to talk to my sister, but there is an issue around her that if we divorce, my H will attempt to use against me so I’m trying to be careful until I decide.

Sounds crazy, but it’s true. And his version is way worse than the original and yet this is what I’m dealing with. Happy to discuss this...but, I have been thinking this through so trying to get to a spot I’m comfortable. Getting close.

You have a strong value system, and your ethics are up to you. If you value your relationship with your sister, then have one. It's not his business, and it isn't violating any mariage vow  to talk to your sister.

Thank you. I conduct myself as ethically as possible.  But I really don’t care what anyone else does if they’re not hurting anyone. My morals are mine.  Someone else is entitled to theirs. If they don’t mix, then they don’t mix. I don’t think better or worse, just different.

But, as I mentioned, my sister is not as simple as talking to my sister. It should be but because H has an issue, I am careful here.

If he's talking to an old gf on Facebook, that's his decisions. If the two of them run off together, you aren't responsible for that. You don't need to protect her.

Sometimes I just wish he’d go win her back and leave me alone. He believes she still loves him. I believe she couldn’t care less. Maybe I’m wrong.

As to the children- people with PD's see their children as extensions of themselves, not separate individuals. So when the kids make a mistake, or you talk about one, he sees it at being about him. If he doesn't have a strong self image, it could set him off. He also sees you that way- with poor boundaries between you then you having a different opinion could feel very wrong to him. But it really isn't about him. Maybe he likes chocolate ice cream and you like vanilla. One has nothing to do with the other.

Your "private" "dishonesty" might be more about keeping a boundary than dishonesty. It doesn't feel comfortable to you because, in relationships between people with healthy boundaries- there would not be as much of a need to do this. But your reasons for keeping your father's finances private, or talking to your sister, are not really about him. They are your "gut" feelings telling you this isn't safe to share. As you develop healthier boundaries , you may not feel as much a need for self protection and gain the ability to be more authentic. That's a work in progress.

That is an interesting viewpoint. I need to think that through to make sure I see the distinction.

Thank you notwendy for your reply and insight. A lot to think about and understand.

[Notwendy]

It took me a while to understand the concept of co-dependency. Some of the most self sufficient and productive people I know have co-dependent traits. I didn't even recognize that these traits could cause issues in relationships. They were the norm in my own family growing up. My mother has severe BPD to the point where she is very impaired, needs constant attention and assistance, has not had a job outside the home, or in the home. My father had the roles of both parents, and a full time job.

Yet, it was my mother who controlled every penny he made, her feelings ruled the home, he had to ask her permission to do anything. We walked on eggshells for fear of "upsetting her". I was parentified at an early age.

I am so sorry that you lost your mother at a young age. That's a big trauma for a young person. You mentioned that you took care of things as your father was grieving. Could it be that you also were "parentified" in a way, due to the circumstances? ( not to blame - this is just how things were).

What about your own grief? Who helped with that? Your father may not have been able to. It was probably your bf - now your H.

Later on though, when issues started in my own marriage, an MC mentioned co-dependency to me. It didn't make sense at first. I didn't depend on people to do things for me. I had been taking care of other people's needs, emotions, feelings, --since I was a young teen-- and not paying attention to my own feelings or needs. I didn't have strong boundaries. I didn't know what "normal" was- what I grew up with wasn't normal.

What do you do to get help for you? Do you have a counselor to help you process your situation? The board here is great. In addition, I have 12 step co-dependency groups and also saw a counselor at times. My father died a while back. I am older than you are, but grief is tough, at any age.

I can relate to your bond with your H. As a teen, I was bonded to my friends. My mother didn't show affection to me, but my friends liked me. I also had a bf at the time and having someone who liked me for me made a big impression on me. It seemed the only way to get affection at home was to be what my parents wanted me to be. I look back at that relationship though and realize that I was co-dependent even then. I was a people pleaser. I also tried to be just like him. I wanted him to like me. We both went off to different colleges and that ended the relationship.

Yet, I repeated that pattern when dating. Afraid to be myself, afraid to disagree or make any demands on the other person. I think this kind of thing is behind "protective dishonesty", and to be honest, I know how to do that well- it was how I learned to get approval growing up as a child, and I didn't know anything different from that. And when we take this into relationships later- we tend to match with others who share some of our relationship traits.

It took a lot of personal work to feel I was acting like my authentic self. Not in an antagonistic way but simply as a different person from someone else. No two people are the same. But to do this, I had to figure out who I was - pay some attention to me. I know you are busy with kids, but is there anything you can do for you? Even if it's something small like take an online class, or join a friend group, get some counseling... or other ideas.

[Notwendy]

I also think your keeping your father's finances private is not dishonest. I think it's being protective in a situation where you need to consider the welfare of yourself and your children.

You may not be used to having this kind of a boundary, but a boundary is there to protect ourselves. A boundary  also isn't about the other person. It's about you, your values and your choices. Not telling your H isn't about him. It's about control. If you don't have some means of taking care of yourself, then he has total control of your wellbeing.

There is such a thing as "financial adultery" - the betrayal of marital trust that happens when one person breaks the marital trust - basically cheating - with money. I think that's a fine line to walk, but I think the situation is such that you may not feel entirely safe if your H holds all the financial power. But I think it is OK to have a safety net in the case that a marriage doesn't feel secure or safe.

I have no experience with divorce or the legal aspect of that, but I think in the case of divorce-assetts are on the table and considered. So should he follow through on his threats, the divorce could still be settled honestly. For now though, I think keeping your father's estate to yourself helps you to feel safe. You didn't take it or spend it- it's just private.

[babyducks]

Good Morning UBPDHelp,

I think NotWendy brought a lot of good stuff to the table and I wanted to add a couple of my thoughts to hers.

It took me a while to understand the concept of co-dependency.   

Me too.    at first it felt pejorative, like a put down or an insult.   I don't see it that way anymore.    the way I view it now is that co-dependency is a broad term that covers a lot of ground.     Like arthritis.   which can mean everything from the twinge in your shoulder to knees that can't support the body weight any longer.   it varies considerably from person to person and weather, stress, use and diet can make a huge impact.

for me co-dependency has a couple of significant components.    1) a willingness to put someone else first at our own expense.  2) a strong need to help, fix, cure, assist, take responsibility for  someone else's life. (also at our own expense.)

the classic example that you see in print a lot is the person married to an alcoholic.   the codependent might pour the bottle hidden in the cabinet down to the sink,... because it's going to "help" the alcoholic not drink.    because it's going to "fix" the problem of the alcoholic getting too drunk at this afternoon's barbeque.   the codependent is taking responsibility for someone else's behavior by trying to manage it.    pouring the bottle down the cabinet is actually not helping,... it's enabling.    it's protecting the alcoholic from the natural consequences of their own behavior.   
 
 

I have not mastered all the terms or concepts and others will probably tell you, I need examples. Ha!

okay.    you've mentioned the plumber's bill a couple of times now.     what I hear you saying is that you place a value on honesty around finances/money.    you value having free/honest exchanges with an equal partner.    what I hear you saying is that you want/need/would like to share the responsibility of finances.   and then the plumbers bill comes in different than was expected.   

rather than handle it in a way that matches/meets up with your values you end up :

fudging the amount of a bill and moving funds around to cover it. Nothing nefarious, just not up for a rant that the plumber is a scam artist.

His feelings "the rage and the rant" become first and foremost,... your wants/needs for an honest financial discussion take second place... behind taking responsibility for what might have been his reaction.   

Except,... this leaves you short changed in ways that are hard to articulate.   you feel uncomfortable about it.     your values are being stepped on.    your wants/needs ignored.    again.     it doesn't feel good.

I suspect you are going to ask if it was wrong to keep the plumbers bill from him.      and it's really not that simple.     a yes to sharing the bill might mean a rage.    a no to sharing the bill might mean you are left holding uncomfortable feelings.    which is the best trade off to make isn't simple.  its not black/white.   it can vary from day to day,... and example to example.

'ducks

[formflier]

I’d be interested in anything you’re willing to share re: boundaries. I don’t need explicit details, but just how you managed to turn the tide, if you’re able to.

 

So...I'm pretty much an open book.  I can go into as much or little detail as need.


That being said the physical stuff is pretty much the same way I approached finances.

And...I'll say that I sort of see it the same way.  For starters my wife has  a job (teacher) and I have little idea what she spends her money on, although a large portion is spent on kids (I don't know details).  Same thought with sexuality, my wife has access to vibrators and can climax that way if she really needs it.

So...I organized it in my head that I was not "denying" her anything by holding my boundary, rather I was honoring her choices.

If she approached me in a demanding and ungrateful way about money...my wallet stayed closed.  Same thing about physical stuff.

It actually played out on a spectrum.  Yes...there were times I got cussed out...you no good blah blah blah get over her and (insert something sexual).  That was rare but it happened a few times.

Most often it was "blah blah blah you banged that nurse and hid a child from me and want the neighbor and...   Then she would "forgive" me and "poof" be uber nice and give me a chance to "make it up to her".    That was actually pretty common for a while.

So...I didn't want to interpret the spectrum.  If I got a whiff of it...I did something else.  By the same token if she was neutral or nice I rarely...rarely turn her down.

Finances:  I've been threatened, cussed...judged and then expected to hand over $$.  Umpteen financial "agreements" (even in writing) have been abrogated by her.

From time to time she will still come to me for something financial.  Neutral or better I rarely say no.  If there is a hint of blame, entitlement or BPDish behavior...my wallet stays closed. 

Note:  Read through all this again.  None of this is "designed" to alter my wife's behavior (even though it eventually did).  Consistency is critical.  In fact inconsistency is WORSE than letting current patterns keep going.

Again..I'm an open book and I'm thankful my stories in the last few years are a lot less entertaining.  Yes...my wife really believes (ed) I have an out of wedlock child, although she hasn't mentioned the child in several years.

Potentially important difference:  I think the consensus is your hubby has very strong NPD traits.  My wife is most likely PPD rather than BPD. 

I'll leave it to others to highlight differences.  For me...invalidation set off paranoia and made it get much worse.  Removing that from the relationship fixed...maybe 75% of the stuff, certainly 50%.

Boundaries was close to half as well.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Regarding codependency and "dishonesty"

The only thing I have an issue with is the plumber bill. 

If you didn't want to tell him, I think honestly is the best policy.  "The plumbing issue has been handled."

"blah blah how much was it..what are you hiding?"

you (neutral)  "Babe (maybe almost a sigh)...there is nothing hidden.  I'm simply not comfortable discussing it with you.  If you want to know more, I'm open to discussing it during a walk this evening"

This evening comes...you go on a walk and invite him.  (don't remind him of the subject..just invite him) and then you go on the walk.

If he comes with you..great.  If he asks about the plumbing bill...tell him.  If he asks why you wouldn't tell him earlier...tell him his "intensity" sometimes comes between you guys."

If he dysregulates, walk away from him.

Lying (fudging) rarely turns out well.  Sadly I did this for  a while (in the early stages).  I got busted a time or two and even the stuff I didn't get caught on I really regret.

Plus...she is technically correct that she caught me lying (even though I had darn good reasons).

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

Lots of interesting stuff here.

UBPDHelp, I could be wrong, but I don’t think feeling awful when/after being raged at is a sign of co-dependency. It seems normal. And the lines between right and wrong can be blurred when in a situation like this.

I know the truth issue is one I still struggle with, too. I don’t share everything with my H, particularly when it comes to trigger areas.

What I’ve been trying to do is switch more to thinking rather than feeling. Step back and analyze why I’m not being honest. Is it to protect him or try to control the situation? Is it because, despite his insistence, it isn’t his business? Is it because the cost of lying is less than the rage it could trigger? Thinking through my own emotions and looking logically at the situation helps me a lot.

Others have said this better than I. Just wanted to offer my two cents’ worth and a little support.

[Notwendy]

Maybe it would help to clarify-

Feeling awful after being raged at isn't codependency. I think most people would feel something- either awful or angry, or upset.


Managing someone else's feelings so they don't get upset is crossing the line. Because it's our job to manage our own feelings. The ability to regulate our own emotions is another "match point" between partners in a couple. Your H has poor emotional regulation skills, so you manage his by doing things like not telling him about the plumber bill- so he doesn't get upset. Yet, on your part, you aren't able to manage how you feel when he gets upset- so you are in a way, managing your feelings too when you manage his.

So think about this. When your H is upset about the plumber bill, calling the plumber a con artist, whose feelings are upset? Your H. Who is he mad at? The plumber. They are two grown adults. You H can call the plumber and yell about the bill. The plumber then can decide how to handle that. What are you doing in the middle of this? Managing both your H and the unfortunate plumber who might get an earful. So---- get out of the way and let these two adults manage themselves.

We aren't talking right or wrong here, but showing you patterns ( that we are well familiar with having done this kind of thing too). My issue with the plumber bill is that, you are in a sense shielding your H from reality: this is what the plumber bill is and by doing so, you are managing his reaction, because, his reaction makes you uncomfortable. But your H is a grown man, this is what the plumber costs, and if he doesn't like it, he can call the plumber himself.

The key to allowing a person to manage their own feelings is to be able to manage ours. Nobody likes to be yelled at- so you don't have to listen to it. You can leave the room, or simply not respond. I wasn't sure this could be done. It takes practice, but once you are able to not manage his feelings and let him take care of them - while you take care of yours, you are beginning to realize the boundary between his feelings ( his) and yours.

[formflier]

There also is an option that is "healthy" to call the plumber..handle it and move along. 

I'm sure there are tons of things that you handle without telling your hubby.  This could be one of them.

The issue is when he asks directly...whatever you say needs to be truthful.

If he questions the charge, hand him the number and get out of the way.

All that being said...the primary point/question is...am I doing (blank) in hopes that my husband will or won't do or feel something.


Best,

FF

[empath]

UBPDHelp, as you imagine the scenario with the plumber and your h's potential rage, what are your thoughts, feelings, and emotions about yourself if your h were to rage about the "scam artist plumber"?

Personally, I like the term "enabling" more than "codependency". I think of enabling as allowing someone to avoid facing the consequences of life. It keeps them and the relationship stuck in an unhealthy and unrealistic place. There is also the thought in the dv world that it is healthy to protect oneself from harm by not sharing information.

Financial instability, abuse, and neglect is a huge area in my marriage. I have put several boundaries in place to protect myself and my kids from my h's issues in this area. Some of those are really uncomfortable for him, and he has found other people who enable him.

[UBPDHelp]

Hi Notwendy,

I wanted to go back to something you said earlier.

As to the children- people with PD's see their children as extensions of themselves, not separate individuals. So when the kids make a mistake, or you talk about one, he sees it at being about him. If he doesn't have a strong self image, it could set him off. He also sees you that way- with poor boundaries between you then you having a different opinion could feel very wrong to him. But it really isn't about him. Maybe he likes chocolate ice cream and you like vanilla. One has nothing to do with the other.

When I first read this, I didn’t quite see it. He finds weird faults in the kids sometimes so I never thought of him as seeing them as extensions of himself. This seems like a fine line to me, maybe you all can chime in on my thoughts here.

So I love my kids. They are smart, funny, kind, sweet, brave, and cute as could be. All of them have their own personalities and are amazing in their own ways and yet share a lot of similarities.  They bring me immense joy (and yet here I cry thinking how I’ve failed them).

H loves them too. I believe he sees the same qualities in them as I do, perhaps placing more value on some traits than others, idk.

The thin line, almost imperceptible (and not sure I could have articulated this “feeling” without this conversation), is that I love to brag about my kids, but recognize they’re kids/people and have flaws like anyone. My oldest is stubborn and can be bossy.  My second is reserved and not always motivated by traditional motivators. My third is spunkier than a person has a right to be. My youngest is still young and is basically perfect at this point. I’m just kidding, but just a good kid. They all are. They are loyal and kind. When chatting with friends I may share an accomplishment, but I’ve also shared some of the not as fun stuff that comes with kiddos. My kids don’t do “bad” stuff (thankful), but just kid stuff. They’ve also had some small failures and disappointments. These things I see as part of life.

Now my H cannot, will not tell anyone that kid 1 didn’t get into some college, it would be embarrassing, people would think less of him, etc.  He will embellish stories around their achievements. It is always slightly better, more interesting, bigger honor than it was. I have been caught in weird situations a couple of times because I wasn’t aware of the presentation and walked into a follow up not realizing the embellishments.  He does the same about himself, but when the kids were little, the fluff seemed harmless and was more slight so I mistook it that he was just confused about details. Anyway, as the kids have gotten older, he brags about them a lot but always stretching the truth. My oldest got into a good school. H has adopted this as if he did (we didn’t go to a good school) and went out to sports and events and still does even after graduation. My middle got into good schools, but because reserved chose to stick closer to home. I have heard for four years that it is embarrassing and a terrible school. I have disagreed (whoops, but it’s not, may not be quite the same caliber as kid 1, but still a great school, ugh) and pointed out that kid 2 chose it because it is what they wanted and is happy and flourishing there. It’s not good enough in his eyes. In fact he’s pressuring kid 2 to get a masters at kid 1’s school. I thought he was trying to encourage them in his own way, but can see that perhaps the pressure to be perfect comes as he sees them as part of him. Since he didn’t achieve the great school, it is his opportunity to “fix” this?  Idk. This is just one example. There are a lot of little things he does to present a “better” albeit not quite true picture.

On a very separate note, H has a brother that SIL has mentioned BIL has done a few things that looking at could be BPD traits (she knows nothing about BPD, I’m attributing). BIL has always been good to me so I never suspected anything amiss, BUT most people would think my H is charming, too. She has called him out several times as exaggerating stories. But, also he’s called her psycho over very small things and she’s come to me about some other upsetting behaviors. They’re younger and haven’t been together as long, but I’m starting to see this is where I was 10-15 years ago. I know the FOO could impact but they are 12 years apart and had very different upbringings. Is there a genetic component here?

Didn’t mean to take a u-turn, the embellishments reminded me that I’ve started to see a similarity. Thought about talking to SIL to maybe help her with tools as she’s not so far in and might be able to effect boundaries, etc. They have little kids and her family is close so she has other support.

Anyway, would love any feedback. Thanks!

[formflier]

This rings true to me as well.

I tell the story as a point of pride about my son "almost" getting into MIT (yes..that elite school).  It was a very involved process...lots of interviews and things.

When the acceptance rate is single digits, you should feel proud to have been invited that far.

My wife is reluctant to discuss that.

Update:  He went to major named school where he got his bachelors and then stayed for Masters.  He is now working out in industry as a computer engineer.   


UBPDhelp, what does "pressuring" to get a masters degree look like?

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

I also think your keeping your father's finances private is not dishonest. I think it's being protective in a situation where you need to consider the welfare of yourself and your children.

You may not be used to having this kind of a boundary, but a boundary is there to protect ourselves. A boundary  also isn't about the other person. It's about you, your values and your choices. Not telling your H isn't about him. It's about control. If you don't have some means of taking care of yourself, then he has total control of your wellbeing.

There is such a thing as "financial adultery" - the betrayal of marital trust that happens when one person breaks the marital trust - basically cheating - with money. I think that's a fine line to walk, but I think the situation is such that you may not feel entirely safe if your H holds all the financial power. But I think it is OK to have a safety net in the case that a marriage doesn't feel secure or safe.

I have no experience with divorce or the legal aspect of that, but I think in the case of divorce-assetts are on the table and considered. So should he follow through on his threats, the divorce could still be settled honestly. For now though, I think keeping your father's estate to yourself helps you to feel safe. You didn't take it or spend it- it's just private.

Thanks. This is interesting. 100% I would have provided full disclosure if he was not in near constant dysregulation threatening divorce. I don’t like having secrets. I sometimes wonder if it’s chicken or egg. His poor responses to “upsets” and I tried to smooth over OR my poor skills dealing with his “upsets” and I tried to smooth over?  Without question his inability to handle issues without flipping out is not right (and doesn’t always happen, but is MORE frequent over the years), but how much is because I made it worse because I didn’t respond well to the negative reaction?

I don’t hide money. I haven’t been dishonest about it (until this).There may be times I don’t give details IF he doesn’t ask for them. He doesn’t handle finances well. He took over paying bills for a few months several years ago and paid everything, even some way ahead. And then he had a period where he didn’t get a check for a few weeks and things got tough and he put it back on me. I thought he finally understood the challenges. He sometimes doesn’t have a check. I usually don’t ask for a week or two as sometimes it’s not exact and I don’t want to pressure. Then I hear stories how he forgot it in his desk, in his jacket, etc.  None true. It made me mad that he wouldn’t just tell me he wouldn’t have money for a couple of weeks so I could take care of most important. I would sometimes ask if I really needed to know now, it never went well. I understand now it was making him feel worse.  I was passing not judgment, just trying to hold up my responsibilities. He didn’t see it that way. And I feel like treating me like it doesn’t matter if I know when he will or will not get paid is close to financial abuse. It creates tremendous stress on me.

He comes home on a Friday with a check. I know what bills need to be paid and what’s left over for entertainment, etc.  Or,  he doesn’t come home with a check, says nothing. Don’t know if he forgot, won’t have, etc.  Now I have to rearrange bills, don’t know if we should go out, buy new sneakers this week. If I say we should hold off, WWIII starts. Now I mostly avoid the conversation. And, it’s not all his/our fault. We lost a lot in 2008-2009 financial collapse, including having to dip into college funds. His clients dried up for a couple of years and they were very lean years. New baby and two older nearing college, which we’ve spent the last five-six years paying mostly out of pocket. So financial stress has been around a long time as we didn’t have much time to regroup after last collapse before incurring huge expenses.

His not dealing with finances is everywhere. He makes his partner handle all of the business finances. I believe it’s an attempt to shield himself from responsibility when something goes wrong. It’s pretty unbelievable. And, I believe if we divorce he will try to point fingers at me that bills weren’t always paid well because I handled, not acknowledging his part in it (not bringing home money, telling me). And, in truth, I’ve gotten worse at it because part of me is always afraid catastrophe is around the corner after a few bad experiences. 

He’s so loud and aggressive, and yet, mostly likely he’s a shell of a man. It’s kind of sad in a way and I hate myself for not seeing this. Maybe I could have helped. Idk.

Sorry, went off the rails...just putting it all together.

[Ozzie101]

It’s natural for parents to be proud of their kids, as you know. Your H’s lying about them carries a whiff of narcissism to my eyes.

With my H, enmeshment takes a different form. He doesn’t live through SS by his accomplishments. He’s super-sensitive to anything negative. If he perceives anything as slighting SS or being unfair to him, he’ll go way over the top. Or he’ll project his own feelings onto SS. Or believe SS shares the same feelings he does — when there’s no actual sign of it.

As for your SIL, you would be in a better position to read that. I don’t know that I’d approach her (it can backfire or could overwhelm her before she’s ready). But when she comes to you, share tools, relate it as much as you’re comfortable to your experiences. If she’s receptive, you could introduce BPD when the time feels right.

But that’s how I’d handle it.

Genetic component? Maybe. I’m not as up in research as some here. There are tendencies toward traits in families but is it genetic or a byproduct of growing up with the same dysfunction? That can be difficult to unravel.

[Notwendy]

The extension part doesn't mean all "good" things. It can also involve projection of their own traits that they don't like.

It's also boundaries. Your kids' achievements are theirs not yours and their privacy also needs to be respected.

I say this from my own family background. My mother loves to "brag" and embellish things we did as kids and now, because for her, it's a part of her self image. See how great my kids are? I must be great.

Likewise, if we failed to be impressive at something- it was a bad reflection on her.

Her family members with NPD traits are always bragging about their kids and grandkids, and subtly putting my family down because of course, their grandkids are the greatest. They are also enmeshed with each other.

Their grandkids are nice, smart kids and they are also human beings- they have their strong points and not strong points.

We stepped out of that scene a long time ago. And also because of growing up with it- I don't brag about my kids or speak of any challenges. Their achievements are theirs- not mine.

This doesn't mean I don't inform friends and family about my kids " Kid is attending X college" or "kid's soccer team won". That's news. MY child got into every top college he applied to" could cross the line.

So now look at this: Now my H cannot, will not tell anyone that kid 1 didn’t get into some college, it would be embarrassing, people would think less of him, etc.  He will embellish stories around their achievements. It is always slightly better, more interesting, bigger honor than it was.

Why is it even necessary to tell anyone that your child didn't get into a college? Not because it's any shame to not get into every college, but because, rejection hurts no matter what, especially to a child. And if a child doesn't get into their dream school- that hurts. Not telling people isn't due to anything about the parent- it's not sharing your own child's feelings. Their feelings belong to them. If they want to share it- that's their decision. Likewise, if they want to talk about where they applied to, that is also their decision.

Can you see the difference? Because I didn't want to subject my kids to this sort of thing- I did not discuss the college applications with my mother or her family. I wanted my kids to have their own privacy with this.

Extensions of themselves means poor boundaries- what is them, and what is the child's information to share.

[UBPDHelp]

This rings true to me as well.

I tell the story as a point of pride about my son "almost" getting into MIT (yes..that elite school).  It was a very involved process...lots of interviews and things.

When the acceptance rate is single digits, you should feel proud to have been invited that far.

My wife is reluctant to discuss that.

Update:  He went to major named school where he got his bachelors and then stayed for Masters.  He is now working out in industry as a computer engineer.   


UBPDhelp, what does "pressuring" to get a masters degree look like?

It looks like constantly bringing it up in discussions about future, despite being explicitly told there is no interest, at least at this point. Times are tough so don’t know what graduating right now looks like anyway. But, I hear, kid two hears, constantly that kid one’s school offers this master or that master. Kid three and kid four are already being told he can’t wait until they go to kid one’s school. They are years from college. Some may be innocent, but it’s myopic and controlling.  Kid two is reserved but may be smarter than kid one. Kid one has different personality, is getting masters at elite (different) school. It is impressive (maybe I’m easy?). But that’s what works for them. Kid two hasn’t even graduated and is probably someone who would like to take a break.

But, I do worry also about kid two being too relaxed and not pursuing things for a better life and settling for okay. I did this without having tremendous career aspirations.  I was happy to have a career, but wasn’t driven for more, more, more. And I gave it up when we had kids, although I’ve worked at least pt virtually pretty much the whole time (except now, crying emoji).

So, pressuring every time future comes up, expressing how great kid one’s school is. He tells me all the time kid two’s school is terrible and embarrassing. Doesn’t say it to kid two, but kid two says they know dad feels this way. He wants something “better” about kid two so HE doesn’t have to be embarrassed when someone asks. He has spoken these words to me. I’m not guessing. I don’t get it.

Congrats, FF, on your son!  Amazing accomplishment all around...every right to be proud!

[UBPDHelp]

It’s natural for parents to be proud of their kids, as you know. Your H’s lying about them carries a whiff of narcissism to my eyes.

With my H, enmeshment takes a different form. He doesn’t live through SS by his accomplishments. He’s super-sensitive to anything negative. If he perceives anything as slighting SS or being unfair to him, he’ll go way over the top. Or he’ll project his own feelings onto SS. Or believe SS shares the same feelings he does — when there’s no actual sign of it.

As for your SIL, you would be in a better position to read that. I don’t know that I’d approach her (it can backfire or could overwhelm her before she’s ready). But when she comes to you, share tools, relate it as much as you’re comfortable to your experiences. If she’s receptive, you could introduce BPD when the time feels right.

But that’s how I’d handle it.

Genetic component? Maybe. I’m not as up in research as some here. There are tendencies toward traits in families but is it genetic or a byproduct of growing up with the same dysfunction? That can be difficult to unravel.

Hi Ozzie, thanks for your input.

I tend to agree on SIL. I didn’t think much about it until I started learning more about the charming side, which is what my H does and now I suspect my BIL.  She would be overwhelmed. So, I’ll try to share tools when she tells me something.

I am wondering if my H is more NPD than BPD (someone mentioned this above...sorry my head is scrambled).  But much BPD exists so can’t toss that out. But also exploring if this dictates any changes to approach and maybe why I fear not correcting his false representations (which tend to be taking credit for everything good) grows the NPD beast. But, I haven’t gotten into NPD tools yet.

As for the genetics, I only ponder this because they had very different childhoods and yet some bad behaviors/coping skills are the same. Just trying to putting this damn puzzle together.

Thanks Ozzie...hope things are going okay for you. I’ll pop around the board soon to see what’s going on.  

[Ozzie101]

There’s often comorbidity with BPD and NPD, something I, too, am trying to sort through. I was so focused on the B, I didn’t really think about the N until friends here pointed some things out to me.

I’m trying not to get too bogged down in labels. The bottom line is, he has these behaviors so, how do I handle it. This isn’t easy for me because I’m a big analyzer/over-thinker who loves to know “how” and “why.” At the same time, knowing the roots can make a difference in approach and what expectations should be.

Anyway, my H does have some narcissistic tendencies too. Correcting doesn’t usually go over well. Others probably have wiser, clearer advice, but is the false info about the kids a place to step back and let him handle the consequences himself? Be honest with people about the kids and, if he’s caught in a lie, it’s his to sort out or explain? You’d want to minimize any damage to the kids themselves, of course.

[formflier]

The bottom line is, he has these behaviors so, how do I handle it. This isn’t easy for me because I’m a big analyzer/over-thinker who loves to know “how” and “why.” 

This describes me.

I've had to be very deliberate about responding to a behavior and resisting the urge to spend lots of energy sorting out "how" and "why".

It does help me to understand that any amount of energy I dump into sorting out underlying stuff is likely wasted...because I'll never really know if I'm correct or not.

This is on ongoing struggle with me...

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

The extension part doesn't mean all "good" things. It can also involve projection of their own traits that they don't like.

It's also boundaries. Your kids' achievements are theirs not yours and their privacy also needs to be respected.

I agree. It’s not like I tell everyone. More extended family. Don’t see the need to embellish. Completely see the need to show restraint. Not entitled to know everything. 

But he’s a bragger.  I also immensely worry about the message that what they did do, which is wonderful, isn’t enough. Like that’s not right.

And this projection/extension permeates past school accomplishments. It’s our D’s virtue as well. I don’t even want to go into this in detail, but there is a cloud there as well. I feel like a complete fool. I have no idea what the show is about, but the title resonates — Little fires everywhere.  That’s what I feel like. All these little things and they don’t seem big at the time or by themself, but you try to address and then a new little fire pops up and you’re just scrambling around trying to stop all the little fires. Again, I have no idea what the show is about, but that name speaks to me!

I say this from my own family background. My mother loves to "brag" and embellish things we did as kids and now, because for her, it's a part of her self image. See how great my kids are? I must be great.

Likewise, if we failed to be impressive at something- it was a bad reflection on her.

All I got is — yep. That’s it. Some I understand. If you’re kid is getting into trouble or acting out, maybe you want to address for them and because it’s a reflection of you. But the magnitude with which it impacts you is different.

I have a friend whose son is the same age as my older two. He chose not to go to college (capable), got a job that he lost, lived in the woods behind their house because he wanted to. Her H funded this behavior for a while hoping he would find his way. But then tough love. Dad lost his job (for nearly a year) and told the kid he needed to either go to school or get another job. He couldn’t hold one. One day he went to his gf’s house after “borrowing” his mothers debit card to buy a bunch of stuff, got drunk and couldn’t get home. They had to go get him and his car and bring them both home.

She told me this story. No judgment. Gave her my thoughts...some tough love and some the kids perspective. Didn’t think she/her H were terrible parents. Just thought the kid was having a tough time finding his way and shared ideas of some approaches to take. Didn’t have to take my opinion (she asked).  Told her I hoped it worked out, give it time and lmk how it goes and if I can do anything.

This is what I think a “typical” friend relationship entails some of.

Relayed story to my H and he just said kid was a loser and they were terrible parents. His opinion. But, it’s stuff like this that drives him AND another reason why I don’t share these things with him anymore. So much judgment.

Her family members with NPD traits are always bragging about their kids and grandkids, and subtly putting my family down because of course, their grandkids are the greatest. They are also enmeshed with each other.

Their grandkids are nice, smart kids and they are also human beings- they have their strong points and not strong points.

We stepped out of that scene a long time ago. And also because of growing up with it- I don't brag about my kids or speak of any challenges. Their achievements are theirs- not mine.

This doesn't mean I don't inform friends and family about my kids " Kid is attending X college" or "kid's soccer team won". That's news. MY child got into every top college he applied to" could cross the line.

I agree. My kids performed in top 5-10% of their classes (like 600 kids) and got into really good schools, not the “best” but next to. I never told people details but ultimately where they ended up. I was keenly aware not to share. Some of my good friends kids “best” schools were my kids safety schools. I knew this and would never want to make anyone feel like what they accomplished wasn’t good enough. I don’t even believe that, past the ivies, there’s a tremendous difference in future performance.

But my oldest’s good friend got a really good SAT and they made a big production of doing an Ivy League tour. Told everyone all their stops, bought sweatshirts at their favorites. Was a big show.  That kid didn’t get into any and ended up at a mediocre state school. Couldn’t care less what school the kid went to, but the production they put on certainly made me question their character. Totally unnecessary.

But, again, my H doesn’t focus just on college.  That’s just an easy example of the kid-him extension. 

Why is it even necessary to tell anyone that your child didn't get into a college? Not because it's any shame to not get into every college, but because, rejection hurts no matter what, especially to a child. And if a child doesn't get into their dream school- that hurts. Not telling people isn't due to anything about the parent- it's not sharing your own child's feelings. Their feelings belong to them. If they want to share it- that's their decision. Likewise, if they want to talk about where they applied to, that is also their decision.

Agree, no need. I didn’t share where kids applied so I didn’t have to share they didn’t get in somewhere. H’s bragging started before applications sent.  A lot of backtracking.  Why wouldn’t you go to Brown if you got in?

[UBPDHelp]

There’s often comorbidity with BPD and NPD, something I, too, am trying to sort through. I was so focused on the B, I didn’t really think about the N until friends here pointed some things out to me.

I’m trying not to get too bogged down in labels. The bottom line is, he has these behaviors so, how do I handle it. This isn’t easy for me because I’m a big analyzer/over-thinker who loves to know “how” and “why.” At the same time, knowing the roots can make a difference in approach and what expectations should be.

Anyway, my H does have some narcissistic tendencies too. Correcting doesn’t usually go over well. Others probably have wiser, clearer advice, but is the false info about the kids a place to step back and let him handle the consequences himself? Be honest with people about the kids and, if he’s caught in a lie, it’s his to sort out or explain? You’d want to minimize any damage to the kids themselves, of course.

I hear you!  Yes, I do try to stay out of it. It impacts me some in that I mentioned I occasionally get surprised by the info. 

For instance, at the holidays I’m elsewhere and walk into find my H telling some embellished story about kid two. Someone asks me a question about an exaggerated facet. Call H out?  Continue the charade?

Years ago, bragging H told neighbors/friends a very pie in the sky story about a work thing. Would have been huge and public. It was a possibility, but to a lesser degree. But it never happened. Spent couple years being asked how it was going — I see them way more so I dealt with that. I’m sure they think he’s ridiculous.  I could share details privately that would make more sense.

Other than that, totally fine to let him deal with consequences.

[UBPDHelp]

This describes me.

I've had to be very deliberate about responding to a behavior and resisting the urge to spend lots of energy sorting out "how" and "why".

It does help me to understand that any amount of energy I dump into sorting out underlying stuff is likely wasted...because I'll never really know if I'm correct or not.

This is on ongoing struggle with me...

Exactly. I believe if I understand it, I can do something about it. And maybe feel a little less like I’m flailing about.

Really trying to hold boundaries and let him deal with his own sh!t.

I have some new topics to toss out but probably won’t get back until tonight.

Divorce attorney questions/information sharing. Feel like needs to know early, but from get go? Also since undiagnosed, can I say. Fun lunch conversation about this a few days ago.

And, a few weeks ago the site was giving me trouble and a whole story around breaking things disappeared. I didn’t realize it until I went looking. Not sure if I should raise since it’s been like 3-4 weeks...lmk what you think. Don’t need to rehash the same, but slight change to this.