HELP - I’ve unleashed the beast, so to speak part 9

[UBPDHelp]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=344287.30

No, not if you want to be free of his chaos. It’s enough that you know you’re entitled to your opinion. You don’t need him to agree.

Having lived with an abusive ex husband who was BPD/NPD and likely ASPD, I understand how your self esteem has taken a beating. But you know you’re capable and determined to make the best of the current situation for your children and yourself.

YOU DO NOT NEED THE APPROVAL OF A DISORDERED PERSON!

This last sentence resonates. Yep, you’re right. I don’t need it.

Obviously you want to live in as harmonious a situation with him as possible. One way to accomplish that is to let go of your needs to be seen, approved of, and validated by him.

That need keeps you in a submissive position with him. Why give away your power to someone who is undeserving and unreliable?

While I agree with this, I don’t quite understand how to implement it.

If I have my opinion, he doesn’t acknowledge, but I continue on my path based upon my opinion, and he starts dysregulating (yelling, insulting, storming about — or combo of), this is not harmonious.

Is it the beginning/interim of learned behavior and after X times not relinquishing my opinion, he’ll stop this behavior?

So, with lunch yesterday.  I’m up for 6-7 hours and I’m hungry. I like to eat a bigger lunch and with my family (we’re not always together so want to enjoy this while we can, b/c it’s going to change when the world opens up). He’s only been up for an hour or two and isn’t ready to eat. I agree to wait an hour, but then he keeps pushing it back. It feels like he is just simply trying to manipulate to get what he wants. I don’t bite and just say ok, I’m hungry now so I’ll just eat with anyone who’s hungry now. You can eat when you’re ready. This seems completely reasonable to me. But, he’s annoyed. Wants to know what food is available to eat. Picks something I set aside for another meal; I just let him have it.  Not going to tell him what he can eat, he knows it’s a separate meal so guaranteed he is doing it to rile me. He doesn’t.  I go about making/eating my lunch. He comes in the kitchen a few times and dramatically dumps his coffee — it was literally all over sink (easy) and up the walls.  No reaction from me. He made a huge mess in the kitchen. I left it for him to clean up.

This is not harmonious. Is this something after 5 times, he’ll stop?  I know you don’t know for sure, but trying to understand if this is the premise.

Thanks Cat.



[/quote]

[babyducks]

Okay, I see it. I don’t NEED his validation or agreement with my opinion BUT I am stuck on needing him to accept that I am entitled to my opinion.

Can I have that?

No, you can't have that.   People who are organized at the BP or NP level engage in emotional merging.      we do too but for different reasons. 

This is from my favorite book.       I'll keep quoting it to save you the effort of hiding it.

You are expected to think like the BP/NP, feel like him or her, and share the same opinions and behaviors as he or she has.   Differences cannot be tolerated and are attacked by the BP/NP because to disagree means to the BP/NP that he or she is wrong, bad, or shameful.   Merging into an amoeba like oneness is the only tolerable state for the BP/NP and the one must be them.

I know you are going to tell me that's nuts... it makes no sense... it does.    if you have a serious mental illness.

Stop Caretaking by Margalis Fjelstad PhD.

[babyducks]

Is it the beginning/interim of learned behavior and after X times not relinquishing my opinion, he’ll stop this behavior?

This is not harmonious. Is this something after 5 times, he’ll stop?  I know you don’t know for sure, but trying to understand if this is the premise.

the only person we can change is ourselves.     it's not about changing his behavior.     it about changing our behavior and feelings so we have more harmony.   

if your behavior becomes healthier... like Butane illustrated in her post... his behavior might improve... it will not 'cure' anything.

[formflier]

  and he starts dysregulating (yelling, insulting, storming about — or combo of), this is not harmonious.

 

There seems to be an underlying assumption that you have to be aware of or participate in the dysfunction of a dysregulation.  

I'm not suggesting there is or will be a way for you to be completely free of any effect of a dysregulation.  I am suggesting you can reduce the impact of his "issues" by 80..perhaps 90%."


https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=344330.0

Real life example from my life...happening this morning...literally as I type.  My wife is dancing and singing around the kitchen.  She just got through with some song about how good God is and now is singing along with Twisted Sister "We're not going to take it".

How in the world you can bounce between a religious song and Twisted Sister...well...I don't want to spend to much time on that.

Now song is off the stereo and it's a cappella "We're not going to take it.."

I've got some errands to run...

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

. He was really mad but I didn’t let him control me. Bummed about the coffee, glad he didn’t break anything and hope he is learning he can’t dictate what I can do.

and we hope you are learning that his moods don't dictate what you do.    

[formflier]

 
UBPDHelp,

Your thread and situation has been on my mind for a while.  I've been celebrating right there with you when you have done things differently.

So...when I see something in a different thread that is a bit funny yet also makes a big point that could help you see things differently...I had to grab it.

My dad likes to say you can't win a pissing match with a skunk. We have to learn how skunks behave and get a few pro tips from professionals so we don't get sprayed.  

Here is the FF challenge.  Next time your hubbby does his "stuff"...think about him as a skunk (pick any you like...even Pepé Le Pew).

I hope it brings a smile to your face...lightens things a bit and helps you make a choice to avoid the "spray"!

Best,

FF

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear UBPDH-

Hi there-

I just want to say that I honor you for really holding things together, everything, for your family during incredibly hard times.  You and your kids know this.  And so does your H.  He cannot admit this; and he certainly will NEVER be able to admit his failings as a husband and a father during this time of crisis.   That’s his weakness.  Not yours.  I wish you would understand the depth of his weakness.  And the fact that he will not effectively address it.  That’s the problem with pw narcissistic behaviors.

As you watch his behavior, and we’re talking about a fully grown man here, is your respect for him so high that you actually NEED his approval of your opinions?  For anything anymore?  Especially when he’s contributing nothing to the calm functioning of your family or the household?  I don’t believe you do.  Would it be nice?  Sure... but you do NOT “need” it.  Nope.  Catch and release, my friend.

And what he’s not seeing is that the less he gives, the less you will need or want from him.  At all.  Because he’s not a reliable source for ANYTHING good or kind.  You may actually be Detaching in place.

I have a few suggestions...

1.  When he enters the TV room in the morning, you hand him the remote with a smile and a kiss (if he’s receptive to physical touch) and lightly say “here you go!” And you leave the room.  Then you go do something else.  Go sit in fresh air and read; watch a Dr. Ramani you tube video on your phone; lie on a towel in your yard and do stretches and breathing; try to bake a new thing;  Something for YOU.  We don’t get this time back.. let him watch mindless TV.  Leave the room WITHOUT *attitude*.

2.  When he calls you a name and you feel you cannot leave.  Maybe you can say “Ouch!”  And move on with what you’re doing.  Don’t look at him, and say nothing more.  He gets one word.  If it’s at the dinner table and he persists, you DO have a choice to offer.  You can say, “I’d like to enjoy this meal with our family, so please try to do the same.”  If he continues, ask him to leave the table.  Let HIM embarrass himself.

3.  Your eye glasses.  I stick my glasses in my top, so I know what you’re talking about!  But here’s the thing... if this is truly something that for whatever odd reason drives him batty, then don’t do it.  My exBPDbf started shuffling his feet when he walked and I went NUTS.  It was funny nuts and I was laughing but I wasn’t kidding; we both laughed but he didn’t do it again.   I told him there was NO ROOM in this house for an “old” man.  We were both 60 at the time.

4.  I think I mentioned previously the “taking credit for everything” issue, and how my thoughts and ideas magically morphed into becoming his.  I really believe this is a NARC trait.  I recognized he was doing this very early on and it was baffling.  It just became so much more apparent toward the end of our rs around more complex issues.  With real gaslighting and minimizing of me involved.  That was damaging.  And I saw that our real core values did NOT align at all.  You have to determine what the true impact is on you.  Is this issue “worth” standing up to?

Pointing out his taking credit for your ideas and solutions will NOT change things.  All you’ll be doing in effect is telling him he’s “stupid” (in his mind), rather than trying to point out that YOU have some value.  Relationships with NPD traited individuals are not supposed to make you feel worthwhile and valued.  That’s by design.  If you feel good, the NPD doesn’t.

I’m sorry.  I hope you can find some quiet time to watch Dr. Ramani’s narcissism videos.  They cleared so much confusion up for me.  They lifted my depression.

I think you are remarkable.  Xo

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[Gemsforeyes]

Oh and ff - The thing this morning about your w singing praises to GOD and then moving on to Twisted Sister, I was like “yea, so?”  But (please don’t judge me kids!)... I discovered about six months into reading here that I carry some BPD traits, so I really *get* some of these behaviors.

Gems

[Cat Familiar]

I was going to go to the wild animal metaphor, but FF got there before me!  

What I see throughout your threads is an expectation that your husband will be reasonable and fair, if somehow you can successfully quid pro quo him. That may work with nons, but it’s unlikely that you can make him feel obligated to behave better, just by changing your own behavior.

Undoubtedly there have been times in your relationship when the normal rules of human behavior actually worked—when he was on a stable track and functioning from a more emotionally healthy place. Unfortunately when someone has a personality disorder, you cannot count on them to be amenable to behaving like a normal person would in similar circumstances.

Let’s imagine as FF suggests that he is a skunk living in your house. If you haven’t had much experience with skunks, I’ll share what I know. They, like many animals, just want to get along. They’re not particularly aggressive and can actually be quite sweet, but when threatened, they have powerful ammunition that cannot be ignored. And being a small critter, they’re easily frightened.

(I know this from years of experience living in a rural area, having had skunks in my house who found the kitty door, and even having skunks brush by me while I was sleeping outdoors on a deck. I now keep the cat door shut at night.)

So how does this relate to your husband? Skunks are highly attuned to predictor/prey and I suspect your husband is as well. He has managed to keep you fearful (of his “spraying”) and off balance for many years, trying to avoid his anger outbursts.

There’s no way that you can ask a skunk to behave the way you want them to—such as wanting your husband to accept that you’re entitled to your opinion. Perhaps if it was surgically “deskunked” you might have a chance of training it, but I digress...

Instead, when confronted by a skunk, the only control you have is over your own behavior. You neither want to signal fear nor aggression, as the skunk is very good at reading emotion. (You’ve been sending fear vibes to your husband, worrying that he might verbally attack you or do some household damage.)

So what do you do when you encounter a skunk (your husband when he is either dysregulating or on the verge)?

You acknowledge the skunk, so he knows he’s seen. Then you go about your business, preferably moving away slowly but purposefully. And the skunk doesn’t feel threatened and can continue with his skunkbusiness.

So you’re probably wondering how on earth this metaphor relates to you being stuck in the house with your husband during this quarantine.

Yes, there are times that you are stuck in the same room with him, such as when he deigns to eat dinner with the family and you cannot exit gracefully.  But you can exit conversations with grace. In previous threads, you’ve been concerned about letting him “win” by not contesting something.

Imagine as the emotional heat is rising, the skunk’s body becoming rigid, the tail rising, and you begin seeing the back side of the skunk. Continuing the conversation at that point certainly won’t be a win for you.

The best win for you is to be able to go about your business without frightening or enraging the skunk, and to do that by whatever means will keep things on an even keel.

I suspect that there’s a lot of insecurity and fear within your husband and that he has adopted aggressive postures, both with you and with his work, so that he’s able to protect himself.

As I’ve said, most times skunks are live and let live creatures, other than hunting their prey. But I did recently observe a skunk displaying aggressive behavior toward a much larger animal.

I had a high powered flashlight and I noticed that my horse was  very intently watching something in her field, where the forest begins. It was a skunk, chasing a fox. The fox kept turning around and looking back at the skunk, as in disbelief that this critter would be running after him/her. Perhaps the fox got too near the skunk’s nesting area. Maybe the skunk was protecting her babies. The skunk could be rabid.

I made a mental note to give any skunk I encountered a lot of extra space.

[UBPDHelp]

No, you can't have that.   People who are organized at the BP or NP level engage in emotional merging.      we do too but for different reasons. 

This is from my favorite book.       I'll keep quoting it to save you the effort of hiding it.

I know you are going to tell me that's nuts... it makes no sense... it does.    if you have a serious mental illness.

Stop Caretaking by Margalis Fjelstad PhD.

Hi BabyDucks...it is nuts but I have seen it play a hundred times. Told I feel how he feels. Not understanding I could feel differently. It was/is confusing to me but when reflecting I can see this permeate emotional and physical. Makes sense in a not making sense kind of way.

Tell me more about the emotional merging please...an example of a BPD vs non-BPD. I need examples...I don’t know why I have such a hard time with these abstract concepts. You all speak so eloquently and I feel I can barely string two words together anymore. Thanks!

[formflier]

  You all speak so eloquently and I feel I can barely string two words together anymore. 

I've been there many times.  I suspect others would nod and agree to this as well.  Like your brain doesn't function anymore.

Later in my "journey" I started calling this the "brain scrambler".   BPDs seem to take the most simple things and scramble it in "our" brains.

Then they seem to walk away satisfied and we are...well...can't put two words together.

Boundaries!  Beware of the scrambler...the skunk...the (fill in the blank).

Self care with boundaries.  You will be a new person.  It will take time.

We see massive changes...I hope you see them as well.  I get it you don't yet "feel" them. 

Be kind to yourself..very kind.  Those nerves and feelings of yours have been rubbed raw for many years.  Let them heal. 

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

Tell me more about the emotional merging please...an example of a BPD vs non-BPD. I need examples...

emotional merging is enmeshment.   and a lack of boundaries.    

one of the results of merging or enmeshment is the right the BP/NP and you take on yourselves to correct, fix, and demand the other change to meet your wants and expectations.

I'm going get UBPDHelp to change where she puts her glasses because it works better that way for me.

I'm going to teach Husband not to demand control of the TV because it works better for me that way.

Neither side takes responsibility for their own emotions.   Or actions.   some one else has to change.

Enmeshment or merging... I know he does this to bother me, to goad me to get to me... I know she does this because she is a hillbilly...   I know what the others true motivation is...

Merging is actually emotionally safe... because no one steps outside the preconceived roles.


hmmm... that's the best I can do with this one right now...     This might need to be cleaned up by others...

[formflier]

Merging is actually emotionally safe... because no one steps outside the preconceived roles.

Babyducks,

I've not read the book and really don't claim to have a deep understanding of enmeshment.

Would it be accurate to say that a reason a pwBPD might initially act up more when roles are changed/"nons" start doing healthy things is because their "safety" has been compromised?

Or at least their perception of safety.

Best,

FF

[I Am Redeemed]

Just throwing in my two cents here, but I believe that the "safety" thing is probably accurate, FF.
 
Enmeshment occurs when there is a lack of self-differentiation. BPD's lack a sense of self. They cannot conceive that two people can disagree and still be intimately close.

When my ex was in the idealization phase, I remember that he went on and on about how we were meant to be because we were "just alike". We weren't, but there were enough similarities that he thought we were divinely made for each other. Compatible to him equaled identical.

They want you to think, feel, and react like they do because they do not have enough self-differentiation to be able to have separate feelings, thoughts, or opinions. They do not respect your rights to be different. Differences in opinion, thought, or feeling are threatening to them.

We as nons who end up in BPD relationships generally tend to have low levels of self differentiation, too. We spend lots of time trying to change the way the BPD person thinks or feels about us because it is uncomfortable to us to have to accept that we may have different thoughts, feelings, and actions and it is okay to do so. We spend lots of time trying to fix the feelings or behavior of the other person, and we have trouble being content if the BPD does not think or feel about us in the way we want them to do.

[UBPDHelp]

the only person we can change is ourselves.     it's not about changing his behavior.     it about changing our behavior and feelings so we have more harmony.   

if your behavior becomes healthier... like Butane illustrated in her post... his behavior might improve... it will not 'cure' anything.

I understand this mostly. I don’t really like it, though. It’s not that I have to make him my way, but I guess decide if I change my approach but he’s still the same, what is the point. Yes, I have more harmony.  I’ve changed how I operate, but still don’t get what I need in return.

I just don’t get how he can function so well in so many scenarios and then absolutely miserably in others.  

I suspect a whole lot of denial on my part. When he wasn’t constantly dysregulating I accepted less than I deserved. But, he kept me enough on my toes, I felt slightly like I should be thankful that someone would put up with my faults.

For a long time I believed his stories. But, I’ve come to realize many are just covers for his failures. He tells story after story of how he’s saved his partners butt at work but the few times (some lessor before all this) there have been work crisis, his partner is the one who does the fixing. Seems very similar to personal.  So all the stories come into question.

Anyway, I believe all these paths lead me to the same place. Do better myself — self care, not engaging in circular arguments, not taking bait or things personally, letting things go, maintaining boundaries. But as thankful as I am to improve myself, I have to decide and likely accept that it may not be enough with him. I’m happy to be a better person, happy to do the work, but the thought of getting dragged back down with him is daunting.

Finally, please tell me if there are relationships that opinions are more readily accepted.  My parents had that, but I was late teens when my mother died so maybe I was unaware. I do not know what a more typical relationship looks like. Maybe I don’t even want one ever.  Just curious.

Thanks, as always, BabyDucks.

[UBPDHelp]

There seems to be an underlying assumption that you have to be aware of or participate in the dysfunction of a dysregulation.  

I'm not suggesting there is or will be a way for you to be completely free of any effect of a dysregulation.  I am suggesting you can reduce the impact of his "issues" by 80..perhaps 90%."


https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=344330.0

Real life example from my life...happening this morning...literally as I type.  My wife is dancing and singing around the kitchen.  She just got through with some song about how good God is and now is singing along with Twisted Sister "We're not going to take it".

How in the world you can bounce between a religious song and Twisted Sister...well...I don't want to spend to much time on that.

Now song is off the stereo and it's a cappella "We're not going to take it.."

I've got some errands to run...

Thanks FF,

I do understand that I don’t have to be a part of it. I can’t help but feel like it’s just one more thing I change because of him. And, I understand I have a choice. I think I’m really getting close to understanding so much of the dynamic. What to do with it all...not even close yet.

I am not trying to be stubborn. I just feel like I’ve already given up so much that I have to hold somewhere. Maybe it’s just been the wrong stuff.

I know I’ve said this before, but sometimes there are signs out in the universe — much like BPD, I see them, just don’t know what they mean. 
In the auto replay on our  tv today was a Goldbergs episode and twisted sister was playing “we’re not going to take it”.  Seems like a sign to me that I’m heeding the correct advice.  FYI, I don’t buy into superstition, etc., but I have had a handful of signs that spoke to me.

Hope things have settled and your W has found something more soothing to listen to. Good mantra, though.

[UBPDHelp]

UBPDHelp,

Your thread and situation has been on my mind for a while.  I've been celebrating right there with you when you have done things differently.

So...when I see something in a different thread that is a bit funny yet also makes a big point that could help you see things differently...I had to grab it.

Here is the FF challenge.  Next time your hubbby does his "stuff"...think about him as a skunk (pick any you like...even Pepé Le Pew).

I hope it brings a smile to your face...lightens things a bit and helps you make a choice to avoid the "spray"!

Very fitting. Love Pepé.  This does help.

I am doing more the stuff I want to do. He seems to be getting kind of annoyed but isn’t verbalizing it as much. I think he may just be waiting to get back to normal and then will say we should divorce. I don’t think I’ll fight it if he does. On the other hand he keeps talking to the kids about the future and mentions me. It’s just so confusing, but ultimately it will probably be my decision.

Thanks FF.

[UBPDHelp]

Dear UBPDH-

Hi there-

I just want to say that I honor you for really holding things together, everything, for your family during incredibly hard times.  You and your kids know this.  And so does your H.  He cannot admit this; and he certainly will NEVER be able to admit his failings as a husband and a father during this time of crisis.   That’s his weakness.  Not yours.  I wish you would understand the depth of his weakness.  And the fact that he will not effectively address it.  That’s the problem with pw narcissistic behaviors.

Thank you for saying this. I can see the weakness. It’s devastating. Understanding is coming.

As you watch his behavior, and we’re talking about a fully grown man here, is your respect for him so high that you actually NEED his approval of your opinions?  For anything anymore?  Especially when he’s contributing nothing to the calm functioning of your family or the household?  I don’t believe you do.  Would it be nice?  Sure... but you do NOT “need” it.  Nope.  Catch and release, my friend.

No respect. I respect him as a human, but not as a husband and very little as a father. He lied and represented someone other that who he is. I was duped. And now it’s a mess. I’m to blame, too. I get that. And, it’s not just a lame I let him do horrible things. I was responsible to know better and not let so many things slide. I helped grow the beast.

And what he’s not seeing is that the less he gives, the less you will need or want from him.  At all.  Because he’s not a reliable source for ANYTHING good or kind.  You may actually be Detaching in place.

Yep, less and less.  Can you explain what you mean by detaching in place? 

I’m understanding it as coming to terms with the relationship being over, but probably only due to pandemic, doing it while together. It’s scary but I can see this.

I have a few suggestions...

1.  When he enters the TV room in the morning, you hand him the remote with a smile and a kiss (if he’s receptive to physical touch) and lightly say “here you go!” And you leave the room.  Then you go do something else.  Go sit in fresh air and read; watch a Dr. Ramani you tube video on your phone; lie on a towel in your yard and do stretches and breathing; try to bake a new thing;  Something for YOU.  We don’t get this time back.. let him watch mindless TV.  Leave the room WITHOUT *attitude*.

Love this. I’ve done this mostly except the leaving. I’ve just changed watching tv to reading. But, I’ll start this.

2.  When he calls you a name and you feel you cannot leave.  Maybe you can say “Ouch!”  And move on with what you’re doing.  Don’t look at him, and say nothing more.  He gets one word.  If it’s at the dinner table and he persists, you DO have a choice to offer.  You can say, “I’d like to enjoy this meal with our family, so please try to do the same.”  If he continues, ask him to leave the table.  Let HIM embarrass himself.

Yes, thank you.

3.  Your eye glasses.  I stick my glasses in my top, so I know what you’re talking about!  But here’s the thing... if this is truly something that for whatever odd reason drives him batty, then don’t do it.  My exBPDbf started shuffling his feet when he walked and I went NUTS.  It was funny nuts and I was laughing but I wasn’t kidding; we both laughed but he didn’t do it again.   I told him there was NO ROOM in this house for an “old” man.  We were both 60 at the time.

I joke about being old. Doesn’t help him. He’s terrified of getting older and losing looks, mine included. Think that’s NPD at play, idk. And I understand what you’re saying but I already do so many things because what I was doing drove him batty. I take them on and off 50x a day, so not sure it’s reasonable.

4.  I think I mentioned previously the “taking credit for everything” issue, and how my thoughts and ideas magically morphed into becoming his.  I really believe this is a NARC trait.  I recognized he was doing this very early on and it was baffling.  It just became so much more apparent toward the end of our rs around more complex issues.  With real gaslighting and minimizing of me involved.  That was damaging.  And I saw that our real core values did NOT align at all.  You have to determine what the true impact is on you.  Is this issue “worth” standing up to?

Pointing out his taking credit for your ideas and solutions will NOT change things.  All you’ll be doing in effect is telling him he’s “stupid” (in his mind), rather than trying to point out that YOU have some value.  Relationships with NPD traited individuals are not supposed to make you feel worthwhile and valued.  That’s by design.  If you feel good, the NPD doesn’t.

I’m sorry.  I hope you can find some quiet time to watch Dr. Ramani’s narcissism videos.  They cleared so much confusion up for me.  They lifted my depression.

Thank you. It is so obvious that he does this now. He can take credit. Too tired to fight this. And I don’t even care about having it, but it’s just so weird. Sorry, it is. Ugh.

I listened to some Dr. Ramani. Eye opening. I definitely want to find time for more.

I think you are remarkable.  Xo

Of course I leave this in...I needed it and you knew it. Thank you. xo

[UBPDHelp]

I was going to go to the wild animal metaphor, but FF got there before me!  

What I see throughout your threads is an expectation that your husband will be reasonable and fair, if somehow you can successfully quid pro quo him. That may work with nons, but it’s unlikely that you can make him feel obligated to behave better, just by changing your own behavior.

Undoubtedly there have been times in your relationship when the normal rules of human behavior actually worked—when he was on a stable track and functioning from a more emotionally healthy place. Unfortunately when someone has a personality disorder, you cannot count on them to be amenable to behaving like a normal person would in similar circumstances.

Yes, there have been times, a lot of times. But that doesn’t exist anymore. Am I going to get stuck holding the bag or do I get out and try to build a new life?

Let’s imagine as FF suggests that he is a skunk living in your house. If you haven’t had much experience with skunks, I’ll share what I know. They, like many animals, just want to get along. They’re not particularly aggressive and can actually be quite sweet, but when threatened, they have powerful ammunition that cannot be ignored. And being a small critter, they’re easily frightened.

(I know this from years of experience living in a rural area, having had skunks in my house who found the kitty door, and even having skunks brush by me while I was sleeping outdoors on a deck. I now keep the cat door shut at night.)

So how does this relate to your husband? Skunks are highly attuned to predictor/prey and I suspect your husband is as well. He has managed to keep you fearful (of his “spraying”) and off balance for many years, trying to avoid his anger outbursts.

There’s no way that you can ask a skunk to behave the way you want them to—such as wanting your husband to accept that you’re entitled to your opinion. Perhaps if it was surgically “deskunked” you might have a chance of training it, but I digress...

Instead, when confronted by a skunk, the only control you have is over your own behavior. You neither want to signal fear nor aggression, as the skunk is very good at reading emotion. (You’ve been sending fear vibes to your husband, worrying that he might verbally attack you or do some household damage.)

So what do you do when you encounter a skunk (your husband when he is either dysregulating or on the verge)?

You acknowledge the skunk, so he knows he’s seen. Then you go about your business, preferably moving away slowly but purposefully. And the skunk doesn’t feel threatened and can continue with his skunkbusiness.

So you’re probably wondering how on earth this metaphor relates to you being stuck in the house with your husband during this quarantine.

Nope, this made total sense to me.  Total sense. And got a whole new catchphrase — skunk business. This skunk analogy from you and FF really helps. Who knew I needed wild animals to make sense of it?

Yes, there are times that you are stuck in the same room with him, such as when he deigns to eat dinner with the family and you cannot exit gracefully.  But you can exit conversations with grace. In previous threads, you’ve been concerned about letting him “win” by not contesting something.

Imagine as the emotional heat is rising, the skunk’s body becoming rigid, the tail rising, and you begin seeing the back side of the skunk. Continuing the conversation at that point certainly won’t be a win for you.

The best win for you is to be able to go about your business without frightening or enraging the skunk, and to do that by whatever means will keep things on an even keel.

I suspect that there’s a lot of insecurity and fear within your husband and that he has adopted aggressive postures, both with you and with his work, so that he’s able to protect himself.

As I’ve said, most times skunks are live and let live creatures, other than hunting their prey. But I did recently observe a skunk displaying aggressive behavior toward a much larger animal.

I think this is spot on. And, I’m not a competitive person so it’s not being right that has driven my need to not be quiet. Just simply fearing that that “normal” line in the sand would just keep moving. I don’t have to engage and will entirely let it roll off my back. Give him nothing to hold onto to rile me up.

And, there’s the drivers seat FF keeps telling me about.

I had a high powered flashlight and I noticed that my horse was  very intently watching something in her field, where the forest begins. It was a skunk, chasing a fox. The fox kept turning around and looking back at the skunk, as in disbelief that this critter would be running after him/her. Perhaps the fox got too near the skunk’s nesting area. Maybe the skunk was protecting her babies. The skunk could be rabid.

I made a mental note to give any skunk I encountered a lot of extra space.

Definitely!  Thank you so much for explaining in a way I can understand. Very appreciated.

[UBPDHelp]

I've been there many times.  I suspect others would nod and agree to this as well.  Like your brain doesn't function anymore.

Later in my "journey" I started calling this the "brain scrambler".   BPDs seem to take the most simple things and scramble it in "our" brains.

Then they seem to walk away satisfied and we are...well...can't put two words together.

Boundaries!  Beware of the scrambler...the skunk...the (fill in the blank).

Self care with boundaries.  You will be a new person.  It will take time.

We see massive changes...I hope you see them as well.  I get it you don't yet "feel" them.  

Be kind to yourself..very kind.  Those nerves and feelings of yours have been rubbed raw for many years.  Let them heal.  

Thanks FF.

I do feel scrambled. I wonder if I could function if I wasn’t constantly reinventing.  If the tv couldn’t be heard in every corner of the house and by the neighbors. I wonder if I wasn’t getting harassed about my glasses or a pen or when I want to eat lunch, if I couldn’t do the important things that need to get done.

If I’d sleep better and eat better and exercise more. I have only the energy to get through and take care of the kids. And, failing them emotionally because I am so depleted.

I will keep at all of the tools and boundaries.  Don’t know where this ends. He may just be holding on long enough to go.

I am trying, but yes, I do feel a lot like I’m spinning in circles. Some may be inflated by feeling trapped by pandemic.

Thank you, my friend!

[UBPDHelp]

emotional merging is enmeshment.   and a lack of boundaries.    

one of the results of merging or enmeshment is the right the BP/NP and you take on yourselves to correct, fix, and demand the other change to meet your wants and expectations.

I'm going get UBPDHelp to change where she puts her glasses because it works better that way for me.

I'm going to teach Husband not to demand control of the TV because it works better for me that way.

Neither side takes responsibility for their own emotions.   Or actions.   some one else has to change.

Enmeshment or merging... I know he does this to bother me, to goad me to get to me... I know she does this because she is a hillbilly...   I know what the others true motivation is...

Merging is actually emotionally safe... because no one steps outside the preconceived roles.


hmmm... that's the best I can do with this one right now...     This might need to be cleaned up by others...

Interesting. Not sure I totally understand, or where acceptable vs unacceptable is.  Is it only enmeshment/merging when the other is demanding for the sole purpose of diminishing their discomfort?

So, tucking glasses is annoying. Stop doing it.

Tucking glasses is dangerous.  Could break the glass and get hurt or break them and it costs money we don’t have to replace them. These may be valid reasons.

Just trying to understand the distinction from acceptable requests...if that makes sense.

Thanks for the lesson!

[UBPDHelp]

Just throwing in my two cents here, but I believe that the "safety" thing is probably accurate, FF.
 
Enmeshment occurs when there is a lack of self-differentiation. BPD's lack a sense of self. They cannot conceive that two people can disagree and still be intimately close.

When my ex was in the idealization phase, I remember that he went on and on about how we were meant to be because we were "just alike". We weren't, but there were enough similarities that he thought we were divinely made for each other. Compatible to him equaled identical.

They want you to think, feel, and react like they do because they do not have enough self-differentiation to be able to have separate feelings, thoughts, or opinions. They do not respect your rights to be different. Differences in opinion, thought, or feeling are threatening to them.

We as nons who end up in BPD relationships generally tend to have low levels of self differentiation, too. We spend lots of time trying to change the way the BPD person thinks or feels about us because it is uncomfortable to us to have to accept that we may have different thoughts, feelings, and actions and it is okay to do so. We spend lots of time trying to fix the feelings or behavior of the other person, and we have trouble being content if the BPD does not think or feel about us in the way we want them to do.

Thanks I Am Redeemed,

This is interesting. Maybe I’m not good with the terms, but expecting me to feel the same, like the same is very true. It even seems more enhanced now. But, he also has a whole issue about “copying” him. So it gets hard to walk the line.

I know I have my own issues. Personally, I don’t know that I have to make him believe what I believe but I do get stuck wanting him to understand that I have my own opinions. Similar, I suppose.

I suspect because my H came into my life shortly before my mother died. My father was good, but he went through a long period of mourning and I held most of my family together even though I was so young. My reflections now are that I probably had a fear of abandonment after my mother died and my H was there (was bf at that time) and I suspect I put up with so much just to hold onto a constant. Does that make sense?  It’s created this bond that I was afraid to break. But I’ve lost so much because of it.

Thoughts on that?

Thanks for your guidance.  

[I Am Redeemed]

I suspect because my H came into my life shortly before my mother died. My father was good, but he went through a long period of mourning and I held most of my family together even though I was so young. My reflections now are that I probably had a fear of abandonment after my mother died and my H was there (was bf at that time) and I suspect I put up with so much just to hold onto a constant. Does that make sense?  It’s created this bond that I was afraid to break. But I’ve lost so much because of it.

Thoughts on that?

Thanks for your guidance.  

I think this is very insightful. It makes sense. Your FOO (family of origin) was "broken", changed forever, so you held on to this relationship because you found it in a time of deep loss and perhaps facing the loss of another relationship and the prospect of going it alone triggered the abandonment and grief feelings of losing your mom. You may also not have been able to process the grief, due to having to be the responsible one and keep the family together. Incidentally, you are doing the same thing now- you don't have much time to process your own feelings surrounding the events and circumstances of your r/s with your H because you are busy stepping up and holding the family together.

We tend to repeat patterns like this. It can be a tedious process unraveling how all the events of our lives weave together to produce the mechanisms of our own thoughts/feelings/reactions/behaviors. You may have hit on the root of your own patterns.

[UBPDHelp]

I think this is very insightful. It makes sense. Your FOO (family of origin) was "broken", changed forever, so you held on to this relationship because you found it in a time of deep loss and perhaps facing the loss of another relationship and the prospect of going it alone triggered the abandonment and grief feelings of losing your mom. You may also not have been able to process the grief, due to having to be the responsible one and keep the family together. Incidentally, you are doing the same thing now- you don't have much time to process your own feelings surrounding the events and circumstances of your r/s with your H because you are busy stepping up and holding the family together.

This is exactly how I feel.  My dad really suffered when my mom died. He was supportive initially and then he was able to resume work and normal life. But as time passed, he functioned but he did start behaving much like the loss was primarily his. My sister was always a bit rebellious and she kind of washed her hands of him for a while. I tried to hold things together and yes, I probably didn’t grieve at the time like I should have. Her behavior at that time started the discord my H felt towards her. It’s something I long got over knowing she was probably doing the best she could. But my H didn’t. And then little family nuisances became huge insults to him. I stupidly bought into his take as I thought I was naive to the family dynamic and I believed he had my best interest at heart. Boy was I wrong. He was just removing my support system. It was willful on his part and I was oblivious.  I always thought the little ruffles would smooth over, but he kept them alive.

But ultimately I take responsibility because I should have never let it happen. I can’t control him, but I could have done something different. The sad thing is, in hindsight, the 100s of things I did/put up with to keep the peace have exponentially created more discord and resentment. Lesson learned. Course correction, work in progress.

And, yes.  I entirely feel like I can’t think clearly because I’m managing his behavior (not what he does, what I am around/not around), household duties, figuring out how to pay bills with no income and without creating bigger problems down the road, home schooling the kids, etc., etc.

We tend to repeat patterns like this. It can be a tedious process unraveling how all the events of our lives weave together to produce the mechanisms of our own thoughts/feelings/reactions/behaviors. You may have hit on the root of your own patterns.

Thanks I Am Redeemed.  I’m not sure if I even need to know why — and I do think my mom’s death did set me down this path. Interestingly, H has told me that he only stayed with me because she died and he felt sorry for me.  I know that’s not (entirely) true, but now he’s looking to deflect how he ended up here and it has to be my fault.

He is the only relationship I’ve had since her death so hard to say if a pattern or horrendously bad judgment on my part. But, knowing this dynamic, I will certainly be on high alert. If we end in divorce, I plan to go pandemic style and social distance. I’m not sure I could even have a “normal” relationship (I cringe saying this as I know BabyDucks is going to correct me  , but you know what I mean). What expectations are okay?  And will I be so sensitive to slight BPDish behaviors that I would destroy any relationship that exhibits this? Idk. And, right now I relish the idea of just doing what I want. No approval needed.

I have my own bs to deal with for sure. But, it’s different because I have no need to bring anyone down to feel better. In fact, I try to extend compliments and support where I can. Anyway, simple life is my goal and peace in my head.

Thanks for your help!

[formflier]

Very fitting. Love Pepé.  This does help.

Listen...on these boards we get deep into each other's stories.  Physical intimacy is a big part of relationships and it can also be a very private thing (understandably).

I've heard you mention it a time or two. 

I would encourage you to use the Pepe thing to put a spring in your step and perhaps..you know...smooth out things for your hubby.

In fact...I dare you to use a line from Pepe in there.  I dare you!   Or ask him to use some Pepe line...

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Listen...on these boards we get deep into each other's stories.  Physical intimacy is a big part of relationships and it can also be a very private thing (understandably).

I've heard you mention it a time or two. 

I would encourage you to use the Pepe thing to put a spring in your step and perhaps..you know...smooth out things for your hubby.

In fact...I dare you to use a line from Pepe in there.  I dare you!   Or ask him to use some Pepe line...

Haha!  Okay, got it.

It’s true, I don’t like to discuss. Partially private and partially because he’s made me feel so horrible about it. All very confusing. Maybe I just need earplugs so I don’t have to listen to all of his bs...thoughts?

I seriously used to love Pepé, so suave despite the smell.

[formflier]

I'm certainly not saying you should forget about the horrible things he has said. 

I am saying perhaps putting "dealing with them" on hold for now is best.

When the temperature in the relationship goes down more, I think there will be opportunities to work on this area.

My wife still says horrid stuff from time to time.  It's very in the moment and almost always when she is feeling some sense of rejection or I've somehow sexually let her down.

I don't engage on it and it blows over soon.

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

He’s bouncing around a bunch.  It’s a little like he’s “discussing” with an invisible person. One minute he seems reasonable, the next he’s acting terrible.

Day started out okay with him. He’s annoyed at the neighbors and everyone out and about. Certain we’re undoing the last couple of months, which I understand a bit, but people were keeping distance. This is from our windows. It becomes more than a comment or observation. This takes over for a good 30-40 minutes. I initially acknowledged and then left him to it until he wound back down.

Then we all had lunch and it was pleasant enough. He responds very poorly when he asks a question and gets an unenthusiastic response. So my middle son was kind of just doing lazy Saturday and didn’t quickly pick up that dad was getting riled at his ho hum reply. Figured it out pretty quickly but we were off to the races at this point. I usually stay out of it because I tend to make things worse.  My older two I have explained about not JADEing and a few tools to get him to settle down. He doesn’t really spiral with the kids but he is meaner than he needs to be.

Then he and I went to watch a show he wanted me to see. He has to give a lecture on everything and he says scandalous things. He likes to make BIG points. To one of them, I apparently made a face. I denied it, but truthfully I did before I could stop myself.

Then we discussed a commercial where I commented that I thought I could kind of see both sides. He accused me of taking a side and drew erroneous conclusions. So exacerbating.  These are pretty unimportant things, like small talk, but he still finds a way to turn it into a big deal.

Then he tells me we shouldn’t talk for the next month until this is over and then he’ll be on his way. A half hour later he’s telling me a new story and wants to watch a movie. I’m not getting worked up anywhere, but I am tired.

So, here’s something I wonder if anyone else deals with.

As I mentioned, he likes to make BIG points, so he says scandalous things. I have asked him not to (now know that was a mistake).  I have mentioned that others may misunderstand so he should think before he says these things. He says he doesn’t care. People would think he is crazy...I don’t know why I pawned it off as a quirk.

H wants to convey that a situation might be unsafe to one of our kids.

      — You’ll come home and get smacked over the head and raped by the drug dealer on the corner.

     — They’ll rip you’re clothes off, tie you up and leave you for dead.

Me uncertain what type of movie to watch.

    — Do you want to watch one with girls with big tits or a documentary?

Like who talks like this?  It’s not all of the time, but if he gets frustrated. And to get a reaction. How does it stop?  It’s one thing to me, but to say this to your kids, who are technically adults, is just wrong.

Anyone else deal with this?  He doesn’t think it’s a big deal, just words.

[formflier]

    — Do you want to watch one with girls with big tits or a documentary?

As we get to know each other on this forum, I have an observation about you UBPDHelp.

Privacy, decorum, respectfulness about bodies and sexuality seems very important to you.  (If you want to adjust my words..please do so).

So...if you are that way in an anonymous forum (which is completely OK...no judgment...just observation), I think I'm safe to assume that you are that way with your husband (or would prefer to be that way).

Add to that the obvious "cringe" (or worse..again feel free to adjust me words) when your husband disrespectfully talks about your body, your virtues and also those of other women.

Therefore...

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61684.0msg1099228

I really encourage you to think about YOUR values as they relate to this topic.

Furthermore...after a week or so of thought and discussion...I hope you clearly defend your new found boundary (whatever you deem this to look like) around these values.

What would life be like if the instant your hubby used inappropriate language (as defined by YOU)...that you went and did something else.

What would life be like for you if you took a several week long break from watching TV..or at least the "TV lectures"?

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

As we get to know each other on this forum, I have an observation about you UBPDHelp.

Privacy, decorum, respectfulness about bodies and sexuality seems very important to you.  (If you want to adjust my words..please do so).

So...if you are that way in an anonymous forum (which is completely OK...no judgment...just observation), I think I'm safe to assume that you are that way with your husband (or would prefer to be that way).

I’ll think about this some more, but my initial reaction is this:

I grew up in a fairly traditional family. Morals but not prudish. My mother could tell a dirty joke on occasion. Mostly innuendo. She didn’t encourage us to have sex and established morals around respect, etc., but she was also a realist. Knew it could happen and so discussed protection, without judgment.

My H grew up in a fairly strict catholic home. Premarital sex was a huge sin.  Wouldn’t know it because everyone of the kids was having sex by 15-16. STD and pregnancy scares to go along with it.

When we met, I was forthcoming about my history — slept with my previous bf of 3 years (at about 2.5 years in).

So, I don’t think I started being uptight. I also believe a lot is his bad reactions to me about sex that make me uncomfortable. BUT, I have not been around anyone else who says these things this way.

He’s told our D who inquired what she could have in her carry on (traveling alone for the first time) that she shouldn’t have tampons in her bag because it might be a turn on to the TSA agent. What?  Is this even appropriate to an 18 yo?

Or telling our older kids that their contemporaries are drunken idiots with their tits an asses out. He has no evidence of this, is just trying to be inflammatory to make a point. And some of the response I feel is coming from the negativity he’s projecting. He’s angry.

So, I’m not particularly uptight but have become sensitive to these episodes from him. Coupled with his diabolical hang up on my past and I do have a hard time with HIM in these exchanges.

But tell me, do most people talk about tits and asses to their wife and/or teen kids?  Am I off base?

Add to that the obvious "cringe" (or worse..again feel free to adjust me words) when your husband disrespectfully talks about your body, your virtues and also those of other women.

Therefore...

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61684.0msg1099228

I really encourage you to think about YOUR values as they relate to this topic.

First, you won’t offend me. But, yes, I don’t think you should objectify anyone. Don’t feel you should make someone feel less than.  And I do believe shouting tits and asses is inappropriate. 

Furthermore...after a week or so of thought and discussion...I hope you clearly defend your new found boundary (whatever you deem this to look like) around these values.

What would life be like if the instant your hubby used inappropriate language (as defined by YOU)...that you went and did something else.

What would life be like for you if you took a several week long break from watching TV..or at least the "TV lectures"?

Yes, this is where I am. I’m ready to leave when this happens. I’ve come to terms that retreating to the bedroom, although not ideal, is better.

I do think this will make him act worse but this isn’t better anyway.

Last night we were going to watch a movie. So many choices he couldn’t decide. Asked my thoughts and I gave two options that I was interested in. He immediately got upset and (forgive me now if I offend), he started talking really loud as if he were deaf and doing fake sign language at me. . He worked for a deaf man years ago and occasionally imitates that experience. I don’t even know. He was overwhelmed by all the choices, I gave two options to make it easier for him. But he was still upset.

Constant. Honestly, sheltering in place is just making this all worse and I feel trapped in so many ways. Brain reset today. Restate my goals and work, work, work on them. Hold boundaries.

Thanks FF. I promise I don’t offend easily.