How to reconcile "protective dishonesty" part 3

[UBPDHelp]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=344436.30

Here is a quick story, I partially don’t want to bring up, but it’s the story I tried to post (actually thought I had but can’t find it) a few weeks ago but had trouble with error messages.

Right after his big dysregulation re: the remote that set off 8-9 days of not speaking, etc., he came around. Within a day or two he was losing it again and got upset at something and threw the said remote at the tv and broke it (the tv) and stormed out knocking stuff in his (erratic) path. I was done at this point.

He came around much quicker this time with a tiny bit of remorse. He is gloom and doom with pandemic but also he can’t live like this and we may divorce. I sat quietly and listened. I told him I was feeling this too AND that I cannot allow/put up with breaking things. It is simply not something I can be around. That was it. No more conversation.

I let him live with broken screen for a week or so. Didn’t pick up the things he knocked over.

He’s been much calmer. I suspect because he is figuring out work stuff. Not sure.

BUT, he’s now repeating a story around throwing the remote. It allows him to shift blame (not to me), but it is simply not true.

I sound like a crazy person true/not true. It is NOT the moral high road.

I just don’t know if he’s protecting himself from guilt or trying to convince me, which I don’t believe because I know what happened. This is gaslighting I feel like, except I’ve always thought of gaslighting as being done to my actions...this is trying to manipulate my thoughts.

Besides the absolute intolerableness of breaking things (given!), what do you think is going on here?

Why is he trying to convince me something different than I know happened. This is not foggy memory. This is a month ago.

The retelling has been last couple of weeks. It’s a good story, but untrue.

It will become fact (probably already has). I have not validated or corrected this. I say nothing.

This is a hard story to tell, but I would love some feedback.

And, another observation that somewhat aligns with this is, I’m seeing him forget things.

I’ve always had the worse memory (may have been gaslighted to believe this), but he is seriously watching tv series on repeat. All different from cooking and travel to movies and sit coms. It is all he does is watch tv when he is awake. I spend some time doing this with him and I have had on several occasions lately stated that we have seen this episode, let’s watch another and him insist he hasn’t seen it. It could have literally been an hour before. It’s not just me, my kids have noticed it and are a bit bothered by it.

Just slightly concerned that he’s really struggling and yet, in many other ways he seems in a much better place. He’s expressed interest in reopening things and sees some hope in that so I’ve seen some lift in mood. Which, makes his not remembering things seem more strange.

Circle back to his stating the reason he threw the remote at the tv. Is it possible that he believes what he’s saying because he doesn’t remember?  It felt like he was trying to plant the story to me because it was so definitely not what happened.

Should I be concerned about this on some greater level?

Sorry...I don’t mean to focus on what he’s doing...I am just trying to understand, even if the understanding is that I never can.

Bless you if you’ve actually stuck it out this far. Feel like I’m going in circles.

And, finally, today I really stopped and thought a lot about how being stuck inside for 2.5 months hasn’t been good for me emotionally either. Maybe pandemic is getting the best of me. Taking a step back. xoxo

[PeteWitsend]

Hi Pete,

Thank you for your input. The plumber is a small one and based on everyone’s input, I see a consensus that H is a big boy and needs to deal with big boy problems. The thing is, on small stuff, I don’t know if adding to his rant playlist is something I can deal with. Maybe it’s unfair to him.

It's not unfair to him; his behavior is unfair to you. 

But I agree with what notwendy said, and it's something I didn't think about when I posted earlier: consider whether you're lying to protect his feelings (and therefore enabling him), or lying to protect yourself. 

I wouldn't feel guilty lying to someone who was intentionally trying to bait me into a fight.  Why should I owe them a candid response? 

But at the same time, I would consider that in some aspects of a relationship, you have to take a stand, and you should consider whether a lie hurts you more in the long run.   

But, you mention money as being a big issue. The broader “protective dishonesty” conversation revolves around money I have that the full amount hasn’t been disclosed to H.

A little background since I know you’ve just joined this “party” (woohoo, isn’t it fun?). Been married 25+ years, four kids (two older/launching, two dependent), H has been dysregulated for 9-10 months near constantly. Prior it was increasing, but still way less. He has been threatening divorce (occasionally veiled affair threats), possesses a lot of double standards,etc.

So I have saved a little money and have a little money from my dad who passed last year. H knows it’s there, but not really how much. He hasn’t asked and I haven’t told him amount. He will try to spend it on vacations, stuff. I would prefer save it, and with divorce threats, as a way to provide temporary support for me and kiddos if we divorce. This feels dishonest and not something I would have ever done EXCEPT with looming divorce threats, I have been weighing whether this was acceptable dishonesty. Very nutshell.

Since you mentioned money, would love your input on situation.

Thanks so much.

I'd go see an attorney to learn what the law would hold here. 

I went to see an attorney for an hour consultation (paid, not free) to get a roadmap of how things would play out in a divorce, and it was money well spent.

If I were you, I'd want to know: 1) the legal ramifications of keeping money in a separate account; 2) whether the inherited money is, or could become "marital property" in your state, & therefore subject to being divided in divorce; and 3) what steps you can take to pass that money to your kids, should you pre-decease your husband, to keep him from squandering it. 

My attorney advised me that keeping property separate - even marital property - wasn't necessarily a problem, unless it was being done in bad faith, or an attempt to actually steal what share would rightfully be the other spouse's, or hide it during a divorce proceeding.  Keeping a reasonable amount from your spouse, in order to preserve it, or in order to have an emergency fund in case of a divorce wasn't a problem according to my atty, in this state.  At a preliminary hearing, each spouse is asked to disclose all their assets, and they'll be divided at a final property settlement later on.  If you have hidden marital property... but disclose it to the court, and later divvy it up in a property settlement, no harm, no foul. 

Your spouse may not have a right to any of the inherited property, regardless, but that kind of thing is established in state law, and varies around the country.  So... only your attorney can answer that.

If I were you, I'd consider myself lucky my BPD-spouse hadn't yet grilled me on how much money was there, demanded access to it, and picked fights over it.  You should prepare yourself for that, and how you will respond. 

[Notwendy]

For whatever reasons your H continues to bring up your old BF, it's not appropriate. It was years ago. You weren't married to your H at the time and it's over. What he's doing is playing out his own uncomfortable feelings, maybe insecurities or something else by harrasing you. When you reassure him, it temporarily appeases him. But not for long, because the feelings aren't about you or the here and now. It's all going on in his own mind. So when he feels them, he does it again for the feeling fix.

Each time you reassure him that you aren't with this guy, you like your H better, or delete the picture, you are giving him his "fix"- reinforcing it- and then he will come back for more.

In your mind, you are thinking "once I reassure him enough he will stop"

That's not how it works. The more you do this, the more you appease his feelings, the more the behavior will happen. That's your part in this. You give him temporary relief when you do this, he looks to you to take care of his feelings.

I have read that "feelings feel like facts" to someone with BPD. Surely, imagining your spouse in bed with anyone else would be uncomfortable but cognitively, an adult can manage knowing that the relationship is in the past. Think of all the people out there who are in second marriages. Do you think they are all sending pictures of their ex to the current spouse asking about their sex life?

Your H was not a part of that relationship. It was between you and your old BF, and whatever went on between you is none of his business. I doubt that what he is doing has much to do with you and your old BF anyway. He's making whatever feelings he is having - about that, himself.

How to stop it? You are the one who needs to stop your part in this because, he's getting something out of it. You are too, in the moment, - you are buying a bit of peace by appeasing it and avoiding a bigger blow out, but it's not stopping it.

This kind of behavior is abusive. With divorce threats, I would copy and paste and save them on a document. My own reply to such a text is " I don't want to discuss this further. I am married to you now and our relationship is my only focus". Then ignore the rest.

He's asking the impossible. Change your past. Nobody can do that. He's also casting a dark shadow on your memories. Those are yours, not his. You don't need to be ashamed of them.

[UBPDHelp]

It's not unfair to him; his behavior is unfair to you. 

But I agree with what notwendy said, and it's something I didn't think about when I posted earlier: consider whether you're lying to protect his feelings (and therefore enabling him), or lying to protect yourself. 

I wouldn't feel guilty lying to someone who was intentionally trying to bait me into a fight.  Why should I owe them a candid response? 

But at the same time, I would consider that in some aspects of a relationship, you have to take a stand, and you should consider whether a lie hurts you more in the long run.   
I'd go see an attorney to learn what the law would hold here. 

I went to see an attorney for an hour consultation (paid, not free) to get a roadmap of how things would play out in a divorce, and it was money well spent.

If I were you, I'd want to know: 1) the legal ramifications of keeping money in a separate account; 2) whether the inherited money is, or could become "marital property" in your state, & therefore subject to being divided in divorce; and 3) what steps you can take to pass that money to your kids, should you pre-decease your husband, to keep him from squandering it. 

My attorney advised me that keeping property separate - even marital property - wasn't necessarily a problem, unless it was being done in bad faith, or an attempt to actually steal what share would rightfully be the other spouse's, or hide it during a divorce proceeding.  Keeping a reasonable amount from your spouse, in order to preserve it, or in order to have an emergency fund in case of a divorce wasn't a problem according to my atty, in this state.  At a preliminary hearing, each spouse is asked to disclose all their assets, and they'll be divided at a final property settlement later on.  If you have hidden marital property... but disclose it to the court, and later divvy it up in a property settlement, no harm, no foul. 

Your spouse may not have a right to any of the inherited property, regardless, but that kind of thing is established in state law, and varies around the country.  So... only your attorney can answer that.

If I were you, I'd consider myself lucky my BPD-spouse hadn't yet grilled me on how much money was there, demanded access to it, and picked fights over it.  You should prepare yourself for that, and how you will respond. 

Hi Pete, thank you for the reply. I have only been shielding the money for less than a year. Prior, everything was on the table. He knows it exists and has a general idea (it’s not a ton) but as different amounts came, I haven’t been updating him because he has threatened no less than 10 times to divorce in as many months.

I have been documenting how much I’ve put in to our general operating account. He stopped working in March and has only just now brought in about a week and a half’s pay (leaving approx 8-9 weeks behind). Yes, I’m only paying what I have to, but that still entails putting extra in. And, doesn’t make sense to keep putting off and have a huge lump in a month or two. He is already saying if he goes back to work, he needs a vacation.

I will definitely discuss with an attorney. I will split if I have to but would then especially not like to deplete it now. I am frustrated because he has been irresponsible in the past (lots of vacations, extra stuff). We’ve managed because he CAN make enough money. But, constant weekly shifting things around to adjust for extra expenditures. It has always frustrated me, but because we could pay for it, I just dealt with it. I digress. This is where I am. But I wish I had done a better job of documenting the ripple effect of this in the past. Hard to recreate.

Thank you again for offering assistance.

[babyducks]

hello UBPDHelp,

it's hard to have invested 25 plus years into a marriage to suddenly have to cope with the stress and strain of a serious illness.

take a couple of deep breaths.   try to relax your tense muscles.   serious question for you.     what would help you accept that he has an illness that causes abnormal behavior?     I understand wanting him to be different than he is.   I understand wanting him to be he who used to be.    that's not reality.   that's not the current reality.

 

I don’t disagree with this.  I would add, however, that I would like him to be who he used to be or who he pretended and made me believe he was. Doesn’t seem fair he promised to be this person and it was a facade. I’m just saying.

No.    it's not fair.   it's not fair at all.  absolutely totally stinks.   it's painful.    we understand.   It is, what it is.     it cheats us out of having what we want.     it's horrible.

can you accept that he has a mental illness?    Personality disorders are divided up into three clusters.  Cluster A is the odd and eccentric behaviors,  this is where FF identifies his wife to be.   Cluster B is the dramatic emotional behaviors.   This is where your husband is.    Cluster C is the anxious and fearful cluster.    If I am anywhere it would be here.       These are illnesses.   They are not moral failures.    They are not defects of character.    Like cancer, or diabetes certain stimulus cause certain responses.   they are not choices, or switches, or beasts.   

This has been suggested before and I have considered it. I do think there is some projection BUT he seems to really feel this.

can you accept he has a mental illness?    and that thoughts and feelings that appear unlikely or unrealistic are very very very real to him?    Yes he really feels this.   STOP and really think about this UBPDHelp.    really think about what is going on with you.    it sucks to have to accept the person we share our lives with has something going on that renders them less than a fully fit and capable partner.    

Circle back to his stating the reason he threw the remote at the tv. Is it possible that he believes what he’s saying because he doesn’t remember?  It felt like he was trying to plant the story to me because it was so definitely not what happened.

He believes what he is saying.    He remembers it differently than you.    I think I mentioned that my Ex was Bipolar.  She had psychotic episodes.   In one episode, she believed the wind was telling her where to go.   where the car should go.   so she took her hands off the steering wheel so the wind could drive the car.    She truly believed that.    She truly felt that.   After the episode she had trouble processing which reality was accurate.   both felt accurate to her.  
 

And, finally, today I really stopped and thought a lot about how being stuck inside for 2.5 months hasn’t been good for me emotionally either. Maybe pandemic is getting the best of me. Taking a step back. xoxo

good idea to take the step back.     what are you doing for self care today?    there is a reason we all suggests walks all the time.    walking outside is a natural stress buster.   as a group we all tend to care for others more than we care for ourselves.   and burn ourselves out in the process.    what are you doing for self care today?    serious question.     for yourself.   not for the family.   not to fix a problem.    what would bring you joy and satisfaction today?

'ducks

[UBPDHelp]

For whatever reasons your H continues to bring up your old BF, it's not appropriate. It was years ago. You weren't married to your H at the time and it's over. What he's doing is playing out his own uncomfortable feelings, maybe insecurities or something else by harrasing you. When you reassure him, it temporarily appeases him. But not for long, because the feelings aren't about you or the here and now. It's all going on in his own mind. So when he feels them, he does it again for the feeling fix.

Each time you reassure him that you aren't with this guy, you like your H better, or delete the picture, you are giving him his "fix"- reinforcing it- and then he will come back for more.

In your mind, you are thinking "once I reassure him enough he will stop"

That's not how it works. The more you do this, the more you appease his feelings, the more the behavior will happen. That's your part in this. You give him temporary relief when you do this, he looks to you to take care of his feelings.

Yes. I have handled this poorly for years. Truthfully, in the beginning years, it rarely came up. In more recent years, it has come up a ton. And, yes, I did believe that if we discussed, it would resolve. Little did I know I was giving him that high.

Stepping back, he has said many of the times that he is struggling with how his life turned out. He blames me. If he hadn’t married a slut and compromised his beliefs, he wouldn’t be being punished now. His life is/was a thriving business (that he doesn’t love), wife who supports him/household, four amazing kids, nice house, nice car, healthy...but now not what he wanted.

And, he also puts weird untrue details to it. He believes them, no idea why.

Anyway, when I landed here, this rage texting about my past was the most obvious issue AND the issue I was absolutely done dealing with. I definitely intermittently reinforced (ugh, did not realize). It is the first boundary and I will not waver on it. He has mostly stopped, but I do believe being stuck in has somehow made him stop. I fully expect it to resume. He has made a few small comments — he has my first time set during a certain time of year. He’s wrong, but I don’t even try to correct him. He has said here and there that when it’s that time again, it’s going to be bad for us. It sounds totally nuts to me. But, my boundary is I will no longer listen or discuss.

Idk if these erroneous “facts” are more his past and he’s confusing them, purposely or not. I just don’t know. He’s brought up his first gf he slept with a few times recently.  She must have told him she would always love him, I think he believes she still does. Maybe she does and he would be happier with her. I don’t want to deny him happiness.

I have read that "feelings feel like facts" to someone with BPD. Surely, imagining your spouse in bed with anyone else would be uncomfortable but cognitively, an adult can manage knowing that the relationship is in the past. Think of all the people out there who are in second marriages. Do you think they are all sending pictures of their ex to the current spouse asking about their sex life?

I agree. It makes no sense to me. He tells me I’m married to that bf because I gave him everything. The flip side should be he’s married to his first gf (I guess she’s only married to him?). But what about anyone else he slept with who was a virgin (idk, I don’t ask and he has changed his stories); perhaps he’s a polygamist by “his standard”? I am not trying to insult anyone’s choices, but I was honest with him from the beginning. I feel like if this was a problem for him, he should have said so. Not married me, had four kids with me and after 25 years decided it’s a deal breaker.

But, it is now a firm boundary.

Your H was not a part of that relationship. It was between you and your old BF, and whatever went on between you is none of his business. I doubt that what he is doing has much to do with you and your old BF anyway. He's making whatever feelings he is having - about that, himself.

This is true. All before I even knew him. But, as I’ve mentioned a few times, buried deep in these threads, they knew OF each other. Not friends themselves, but like a twice removed mutual friend. So, for him, I think this made it worse because he could put a face to it I suppose.  That said, not everyone would not be able to handle it. He should have known well before all of this — we dated for five years before we got married. Surely, that could have been enough. I knew a couple of his gfs, don’t care in the least.

How to stop it? You are the one who needs to stop your part in this because, he's getting something out of it. You are too, in the moment, - you are buying a bit of peace by appeasing it and avoiding a bigger blow out, but it's not stopping it.

True. I had zero knowledge, zero tools. I did think discussing would put it to rest. I was told on this site (FF and/or BabyDucks, I think) — this has been discussed, no new info to include (it was over 30 years ago!), nothing has changed so no longer discussing.  My end of conversation is over AND I will not subject myself to in-person or text rages. Over.

This kind of behavior is abusive. With divorce threats, I would copy and paste and save them on a document. My own reply to such a text is " I don't want to discuss this further. I am married to you now and our relationship is my only focus". Then ignore the rest.

He's asking the impossible. Change your past. Nobody can do that. He's also casting a dark shadow on your memories. Those are yours, not his. You don't need to be ashamed of them.

I agree.  Absolute abuse. I have been saving them and documenting other irrational behaviors. I wish I had done this sooner, but am very good about it for the last year or so. Before I got here and knew something was wrong, but didn’t know what it was yet.

I am trying to improve right now while there are no other options. I don’t know if boundaries, validation, etc., will be enough. I believe the sheer volume, near constant complaints to me may be the proverbial straw that breaks this camel’s back.

Thank you notwendy.

[UBPDHelp]

hello UBPDHelp,

it's hard to have invested 25 plus years into a marriage to suddenly have to cope with the stress and strain of a serious illness.

take a couple of deep breaths.   try to relax your tense muscles.   serious question for you.     what would help you accept that he has an illness that causes abnormal behavior?     I understand wanting him to be different than he is.   I understand wanting him to be he who used to be.    that's not reality.   that's not the current reality.

True
 

No.    it's not fair.   it's not fair at all.  absolutely totally stinks.   it's painful.    we understand.   It is, what it is.     it cheats us out of having what we want.     it's horrible.

can you accept that he has a mental illness?    Personality disorders are divided up into three clusters.  Cluster A is the odd and eccentric behaviors,  this is where FF identifies his wife to be.   Cluster B is the dramatic emotional behaviors.   This is where your husband is.    Cluster C is the anxious and fearful cluster.    If I am anywhere it would be here.       These are illnesses.   They are not moral failures.    They are not defects of character.    Like cancer, or diabetes certain stimulus cause certain responses.   they are not choices, or switches, or beasts.

Yes, I can accept this. I am angry because I feel I’ve been duped.

I would say he is cluster b and c. He has a lot of anxiety right now.  

And then he has periods where he functions totally normally.

Right now, he’s less anxious/more normal (I know I shouldn’t use this label, but I know you understand what I’m saying). But he’s also charming the kids. It is confusing to them and I don’t exactly know how to handle because I know full well, it will change. The older two I can just gently caution. They are very aware of the behavior and have now witnessed some large dysregulations. My third is young, but often despises him. Some may be teenage angst, but much is witnessing how he treats me.  Wants us to leave. Think there is more sense in that kid than I’ve ever possessed. Youngest is sweet and unaware, for now.

But, if he has a mental illness, am I now responsible for getting him help (he doesn’t want)?  If we divorce, is he likely to come completely undone?  Just questions I’m considering.  

can you accept he has a mental illness?    and that thoughts and feelings that appear unlikely or unrealistic are very very very real to him?    Yes he really feels this.   STOP and really think about this UBPDHelp.    really think about what is going on with you.    it sucks to have to accept the person we share our lives with has something going on that renders them less than a fully fit and capable partner.    

He believes what he is saying.    He remembers it differently than you.    I think I mentioned that my Ex was Bipolar.  She had psychotic episodes.   In one episode, she believed the wind was telling her where to go.   where the car should go.   so she took her hands off the steering wheel so the wind could drive the car.    She truly believed that.    She truly felt that.   After the episode she had trouble processing which reality was accurate.   both felt accurate to her.

I can accept the possibility.  He threw the remote because he was upset by an answer I gave him. It was validating but brief. He got annoyed and threw it. Then stormed out knocking things over as he went. He looked at a busted screen for 10 days. But now he says he got mad at commercials about pandemic and that’s why it was the tv. As if that makes it okay. The story doesn’t help his responsibility, so not sure why the diversion.  Maybe he does believe that, but it feels more like he’s trying to assuage responsibility (doesn’t work, but he thinks it does).
 

good idea to take the step back.     what are you doing for self care today?    there is a reason we all suggests walks all the time.    walking outside is a natural stress buster.   as a group we all tend to care for others more than we care for ourselves.   and burn ourselves out in the process.    what are you doing for self care today?    serious question.     for yourself.   not for the family.   not to fix a problem.    what would bring you joy and satisfaction today?

I’ve cleared many personal administrative tasks, which feels good. I’m looking to improve my work situation, which also feels good.

Would love a walk, but just a new source of issue with H. He fears running into others, including if I go alone. Then I have to listen to that I’ve exposed everyone. But, will go for some quiet sunshine in the back yard.

Thanks BabyDucks...taking me a long time to get my sh!t together.

[Notwendy]

Would love a walk, but just a new source of issue with H. He fears running into others, including if I go alone. Then I have to listen to that I’ve exposed everyone. But, will go for some quiet sunshine in the back yard.

There's a continuous supply of "new issues" because he is seeking a solution for his own feelings and it's not the issue but his feelings. Trying to dampen these is like playing "Whak a Mole"


HE fears. Not you. Plenty of people are walking outside and keeping a distance. When I walk down the street, and someone is walking towards me, we don't "run into each other". One of us crosses the street. I don't know where you live, but if you have areas you can walk on, people are respecting the social distance. Not going for a walk if you have these safety guards in place just eases his insecurities and keeps you inside and not doing something you want to do.

Then I have to... No, you don't have to listen to it. You don't have to engage in this conversation. He can stay inside the house all day. You don't have to if there's safe space to walk around and keep a distance.

Stop letting "HIS" feelings control you.

[Notwendy]

No, it's not because he knows who your old BF is. It's his twisted thinking. Keep this boundary.

You were honest with him before you got married. If he wanted a virgin, then it was his responsibility to choose to marry one.

Even if he did marry a virgin, he'd find some other reason for projecting his feelings. " if only I married an experienced woman, we'd be doing hotter things in the bedroom".

Don't make excuses for this. It's unreasonable behavior.  It's himself he's unhappy with and that has nothing to do with who he married.

[PeteWitsend]

... He is already saying if he goes back to work, he needs a vacation.

Ugh, I feel you on this. 

When I met my XW, she had finished grad school, but hadn't passed any of the exams and licensing for her profession.  I eventually had to pay for her to take the exams twice (she failed them three times, the last two of which I paid for), a trip for her to another state to receive her professional license (long story), etc. This cost me thousands of dollars, on top of all the other expenses a young married couple has (buying a house, renovating house, buying furniture, etc. etc.) 

And for her first (temp) job, had to take our under-1-year-old son to daycare & pick him up every day.  Which I did without complaining, but also without any gratitude or understanding from her.

After her first temp job ended, her first thought was to take the money she made (around $1500 after taxes), and blow it all on a trip with our son, to see her friend in another state! 

I was totally caught off guard by that... I agreed, but was really surprised how presumptuous and selfish that action was on her part.  But looking back, I recall being relieved I'd have a week of peace without her (and things weren't even that bad yet).  It was self-absorbed behavior like this, in addition to all the fights and nasty comments, that really eroded my ability to trust her. 

In retrospect, I should've put my foot down firmly on all this; I thought I was making reasonable concessions to my partner, but really she acted just like another child.  And it  she never reciprocated kind gestures or appreciated the things I'd agree to do, or trips we went on.  On the contrary she seemed to resent it. 

I will definitely discuss with an attorney. I will split if I have to but would then especially not like to deplete it now. I am frustrated because he has been irresponsible in the past (lots of vacations, extra stuff). We’ve managed because he CAN make enough money. But, constant weekly shifting things around to adjust for extra expenditures. It has always frustrated me, but because we could pay for it, I just dealt with it. I digress. This is where I am. But I wish I had done a better job of documenting the ripple effect of this in the past. Hard to recreate.

Thank you again for offering assistance.

If you can, try to document this all going forward.  It may never come up, but if there are any questions around finances, it's helpful (when presenting the facts for 3rd parties) to be able to show how one partner spends.  This can only help you as well, with planning purposes.

Your H will likely be livid that you kept track of things, but... pwBPD can find anything to get livid about, so protecting yourself in my opinion is the first order of business.  Take care of yours, and let them stew.  They wouldn't be happy anyway. 

[UBPDHelp]

Would love a walk, but just a new source of issue with H. He fears running into others, including if I go alone. Then I have to listen to that I’ve exposed everyone. But, will go for some quiet sunshine in the back yard.

There's a continuous supply of "new issues" because he is seeking a solution for his own feelings and it's not the issue but his feelings. Trying to dampen these is like playing "Whak a Mole"


HE fears. Not you. Plenty of people are walking outside and keeping a distance. When I walk down the street, and someone is walking towards me, we don't "run into each other". One of us crosses the street. I don't know where you live, but if you have areas you can walk on, people are respecting the social distance. Not going for a walk if you have these safety guards in place just eases his insecurities and keeps you inside and not doing something you want to do.

Then I have to... No, you don't have to listen to it. You don't have to engage in this conversation. He can stay inside the house all day. You don't have to if there's safe space to walk around and keep a distance.

Stop letting "HIS" feelings control you.

You’re right of course. I know this but I guess I’ve decided I don’t want to give him ammunition.

After the first two weeks of being stay at home orders, he came running in the family room and excitedly announced that someone he knows was in the hospital with covid. He said just the first name and I ran through all the people we know by that name. Came up with two...it was the third, who happened to be a long ago work colleague that I had also met like 15 years ago and they haven’t been at the same building for about that long. Anyway, I thought he meant our neighbor (yep the one who is not social distancing to his satisfaction). This aggravated him, because why shouldn’t it?  After getting settled on WHO we were talking about I tried to understand why he was so excited about it. He will NOT to this day discuss pandemic for more than 30 seconds and only to say he is freaked out about it. No one else can say anything or he loses it. So I was torn that his excitement was the desire to be interesting because he knew someone vs terrified he knew someone. I guessed he was worried. I validated that his fear was understandable but that he hadn’t seen her so she wasn’t an actual threat. He tells me that he did see her a few weeks earlier because she was working on a project with his colleague at the building he is at now.  So, I tried to calm him that time had passed and blah, blah. All he heard was that he had potentially exposed us all now.

A few days later we did a last run to the store. I did it because I do most shopping so would be faster. When I got back he said now I was the last one who exposed everyone and it would be my fault if we got sick.

So, yea, I can do my own thing, but if walking down the street is going to create this discord, I’d rather not.

He’s so on edge, he keeps saying I just want him to go back to work even though it puts him at risk. Despite him not working for two and a half months, I have not one time said I wanted him to go back. Nothing even close to about no money. He can’t handle it. But I still get blamed for doing it.

So when the world returns to more normal, I definitely am instituting these boundaries. I realize not discussing bf works much broader as won’t discuss when being screamed at. It’s a lot.

He does really struggle with so much. No idea how to help.

[UBPDHelp]

No, it's not because he knows who your old BF is. It's his twisted thinking. Keep this boundary.

You were honest with him before you got married. If he wanted a virgin, then it was his responsibility to choose to marry one.

Even if he did marry a virgin, he'd find some other reason for projecting his feelings. " if only I married an experienced woman, we'd be doing hotter things in the bedroom".

Don't make excuses for this. It's unreasonable behavior.  It's himself he's unhappy with and that has nothing to do with who he married.

  Thank you.

The funny thing is exactly what you said. He broke up with the gf right before me because she wanted to wait for marriage and he didn’t want to. If I hadn’t slept with him, he would have moved on and quickly. So classic lose-lose. He NEVER said any of this before we got married or for the first 10-15 years. It has grown into an unmanageable beast.

This was my suspicion that he would just find something else. Sad and pathetic choosing just not to be happy.

I hear BabyDucks reminding me it’s not a choice, but an illness. But he won’t accept medicine or treatment.

[Notwendy]

I don’t want to give him ammunition.


You aren't giving him ammunition. You are allowing your thinking to buy into his disordered thinking that you are making him upset. He has a continuous supply of emotional ammunition coming from himself. He might be making you the blame for it but that's not true.

Your part in this is that you are making yourself responsible for his uncomfortable feelings. The key to stopping this is to realize and believe that you are not.

His behavior is what it is and you are not causing this. Surely it is distressing to be cooped up with his behaviors but you have to start believing that you have any responsibility for his "ammunition".

You could be a nun before you met him, lock yourself in your house and not see anyone, cook magnificent gourmet meals. Likely he'd find something else to be upset with.

This pattern of "new problem" "new solution" oops next new problem, next new solution" doesn't lead to solving the problem. Your taking on his emotions is enabling it.

[UBPDHelp]

Ugh, I feel you on this. 

When I met my XW, she had finished grad school, but hadn't passed any of the exams and licensing for her profession.  I eventually had to pay for her to take the exams twice (she failed them three times, the last two of which I paid for), a trip for her to another state to receive her professional license (long story), etc. This cost me thousands of dollars, on top of all the other expenses a young married couple has (buying a house, renovating house, buying furniture, etc. etc.) 

And for her first (temp) job, had to take our under-1-year-old son to daycare & pick him up every day.  Which I did without complaining, but also without any gratitude or understanding from her.

After her first temp job ended, her first thought was to take the money she made (around $1500 after taxes), and blow it all on a trip with our son, to see her friend in another state! 

I was totally caught off guard by that... I agreed, but was really surprised how presumptuous and selfish that action was on her part.  But looking back, I recall being relieved I'd have a week of peace without her (and things weren't even that bad yet).  It was self-absorbed behavior like this, in addition to all the fights and nasty comments, that really eroded my ability to trust her. 

In retrospect, I should've put my foot down firmly on all this; I thought I was making reasonable concessions to my partner, but really she acted just like another child.  And it  she never reciprocated kind gestures or appreciated the things I'd agree to do, or trips we went on.  On the contrary she seemed to resent it. 
If you can, try to document this all going forward.  It may never come up, but if there are any questions around finances, it's helpful (when presenting the facts for 3rd parties) to be able to show how one partner spends.  This can only help you as well, with planning purposes.

Your H will likely be livid that you kept track of things, but... pwBPD can find anything to get livid about, so protecting yourself in my opinion is the first order of business.  Take care of yours, and let them stew.  They wouldn't be happy anyway. 

I completely understand the surprise at what they feel entitled to and wrestling with allowing marital concessions. Much like finding something new to be angry about, I feel like whatever entertainment he needs never is enough, just what’s next, what’s more. He says he deserves better. Yes, after you pay your bills. He even has me set up, because I do the physical paying bills which is near impossible with his needs and refusal to provide info.

I know it should be better and I should demand more, but just not sure I have the energy. Solely expending energy on protecting me and my kiddos at this point.

Thank you for sharing. As much as this all sux, there is some peace knowing I’m not alone — would never wish this on anyone.

[UBPDHelp]

I don’t want to give him ammunition.


You aren't giving him ammunition. You are allowing your thinking to buy into his disordered thinking that you are making him upset. He has a continuous supply of emotional ammunition coming from himself. He might be making you the blame for it but that's not true.

Your part in this is that you are making yourself responsible for his uncomfortable feelings. The key to stopping this is to realize and believe that you are not.

His behavior is what it is and you are not causing this. Surely it is distressing to be cooped up with his behaviors but you have to start believing that you have any responsibility for his "ammunition".

You could be a nun before you met him, lock yourself in your house and not see anyone, cook magnificent gourmet meals. Likely he'd find something else to be upset with.

This pattern of "new problem" "new solution" oops next new problem, next new solution" doesn't lead to solving the problem. Your taking on his emotions is enabling it.

Agree.  Balancing being trapped at the moment but I love what you’re saying and will definitely try to be (safely) mindful of this.

Despite a lot of inaction, I am doing a lot behind the scenes and planning.

Thank you for telling it like it is. 

[Notwendy]

My bet is that he didn't leave the old GF because she was saving herself for marriage. I would guess he left her because she had boundaries. ( whatever they are, it doesn't have to be sex) .

People with healthy boundaries don't usually stay long in a relationship with someone who has disordered ones. It's not an emotional match.

If you slept with your H because you wanted to, then that's different from " if I didn't sleep with him he'd leave me". The first one is a choice. The second one could be out of fear of losing the relationship.

Don't be hard on yourself if you had poor boundaries when you met your H. I did too- growing up the way I did, I didn't know how to have healthy boundaries. And I was an "emotional match" for someone whose boundaries matched mine. And they did- but the key to any change was for me to work on mine. One person can not change another, but if one person's boundaries change, it can change the dynamics between them.

What happens when one person improves their boundaries? It's not an emotional comfort match anymore. The other person feels uncomfortable. Things might get worse initually- more anger as things don't feel the same. Eventually they have a choice to make- stay and deal with the new boundaries- or leave and find another match.

That's the scary part, there's risk in this. Staying and doing the same thing is likely to result in more of the same. Changing is an unknown.

[empath]

UBPDHelp,

I wanted to circle back around to the mental illness piece. My h struggles with depression and anxiety - they are related, and underneath those issues, he has a long standing pattern of "instability". There have been at least 3 churches that have given him feedback about it, and it has gone on for most of the 30 years that we've been married. There have also been therapists that have talked about it with him.

The thing about personality disorders is that there aren't really medications that will "fix" the disorder. My h is a little more stable when he takes antidepressants from what I have seen. They help him to manage a bit longer than he might otherwise. He has also had some therapy which again helped some but there is still the instability.

He has "made up" stories in his mind about lots of things to explain his feelings; his feelings must be right and must have an explanation. It is part of his illness. In my case, some of those stories have caused my h to take some drastic steps because instead of checking on the validity of what he thinks happened, he reacts.

I think most of the folks who have been on the boards for a while have found that our loved ones with bpd traits seem to be attracted to drama and chaos and that will energize them. Sometimes, people talk about being a "grey rock" - being really, really boring to them emotionally to avoid feeding into the drama.

Like I said earlier, my h has had therapy and meds. Part of the reason that he decided to do that is I started holding some pretty firm boundaries that made him very uncomfortable. I stopped managing his emotions and let him feel what he was going to feel. He wasn't going to be able to deny some of the things that he had done, and he feels ashamed of those things (for good reason) - at least with me. His actions had consequences that I wasn't going to sweep under the rug any more.

All that being said, crises can bring out the drama and chaos in a way that is overwhelming. I've lived through that and made some choices at the time that were understandable given the situation but would have been different at another time. I became stronger through that period. I had a lot of processing and learning to do and learning how to have good boundaries to protect myself emotionally and physically.

The current situation is that you are "trapped" in the house with your h. The things he says are most likely coming from his feelings and the stories that he makes up to explain his feelings. He is reacting to the circumstances that keep you all trapped and probably wants to escape and is trying to do that (divorce, vacation, tv watching, weird not remembering...).

You are only responsible for yourself and your own health and interactions with your family. I'm glad you are working on your part and keeping yourself healthy.

[UBPDHelp]

My bet is that he didn't leave the old GF because she was saving herself for marriage. I would guess he left her because she had boundaries. ( whatever they are, it doesn't have to be sex) .

People with healthy boundaries don't usually stay long in a relationship with someone who has disordered ones. It's not an emotional match.

This is depressing to me. I suspect there have always been things I should have recognized as problematic, but during the early years they were momentary issues and infrequent, so I viewed them as manageable quirks. He’s had some stress (and disappointments) over the last 10 or so years that I can see coincide with the increasing frequency, intensity, etc. While in it, I was very much (using ALL of the wrong tools) just managing the episode. I had two busy kids and two little kids requiring the majority of my attention, which I’m sure contributed to his feelings in addition to me taking my eye off the ball. So perfect storm.

I know it doesn’t change anything. Perhaps one of my faults, but I really need to understand how I let this happen.

Anyway, he tells a lot of conflicting stories, I believe depending on the point he wants to make at that time — he was a player so he sounds cool. He was moral and premarital sex is wrong (for me). He didn’t smoke pot. He was getting high with his friends. He does tell a good story, which isn’t a problem and can be a lot of fun. Problem is I believed him. It wasn’t until he started telling big stories and then conflicting them that I realized I couldn’t trust what he was saying. Long way for me to get to that yes, I have no idea the real reason they broke up. I just know what he told me.

It’s not that I’m so naive (at least anymore) that I just believe anything anyone tells me. I wouldn’t lie to my SO, so I assumed I could trust the same in return.

If you slept with your H because you wanted to, then that's different from " if I didn't sleep with him he'd leave me". The first one is a choice. The second one could be out of fear of losing the relationship.

Definitely a choice and one willingly made at the time. There was no thought that he would leave me at the time if I didn’t. None.  Natural progression of the relationship.  My thoughts about him leaving only came years later when he started raging about my past. If I hadn’t slept with my bf of three years, I would not have gotten to that place with H as quickly and in hindsight I believe he wouldn’t have stayed if I didn’t. Definitely did not feel that at the time (he may have, didn’t say it).

Don't be hard on yourself if you had poor boundaries when you met your H. I did too- growing up the way I did, I didn't know how to have healthy boundaries. And I was an "emotional match" for someone whose boundaries matched mine. And they did- but the key to any change was for me to work on mine. One person can not change another, but if one person's boundaries change, it can change the dynamics between them.

I obviously did. I didn’t have a poor childhood. I had a nice, normal one. My parents loved each other and showed it. They were caring and compassionate and understanding. I wonder if I didn’t have boundaries because they had never been needed (or were so perfectly executed I couldn’t see them?). I don’t know.

My mother passed away when I was in college. My H says I don’t actually know if my parents were happy because I didn’t know them when I was an adult. Says my mother would have divorced my dad. He didn’t like my dad. No basis for this. But his parents divorced when he was an adult so probably projection.  

What happens when one person improves their boundaries? It's not an emotional comfort match anymore. The other person feels uncomfortable. Things might get worse initually- more anger as things don't feel the same. Eventually they have a choice to make- stay and deal with the new boundaries- or leave and find another match.

That's the scary part, there's risk in this. Staying and doing the same thing is likely to result in more of the same. Changing is an unknown.

I am trying to maintain boundaries. I have one very clear one. Others are broader and more around just not engaging in conversations that are going in circles and letting him deal with his feelings. These are new.

I’m not sure he’s identified that something is different or what it is. I get flickers that he senses it but nothing big. I fear getting sucked in to his good phase and just repeating. I’m just too tired to do that.

So, I’m scared of my future. I don’t currently have a job, trying, but it’s obviously hard right now, too. FYI, he’s started complaining that I haven’t had a real job out of the house in years. This was a joint decision, mostly his, but he’s now changing the story. But it feels like a big ticket item because I lack a way to support myself and whether we stay or go, that sense gives me a freedom to stand my ground.

Thanks notwendy. Your input is helpful. I appreciate your candor while still leaving me with hope that I’m not a total failure.

[UBPDHelp]

UBPDHelp,

I wanted to circle back around to the mental illness piece. My h struggles with depression and anxiety - they are related, and underneath those issues, he has a long standing pattern of "instability". There have been at least 3 churches that have given him feedback about it, and it has gone on for most of the 30 years that we've been married. There have also been therapists that have talked about it with him.

The thing about personality disorders is that there aren't really medications that will "fix" the disorder. My h is a little more stable when he takes antidepressants from what I have seen. They help him to manage a bit longer than he might otherwise. He has also had some therapy which again helped some but there is still the instability.

No, I do not think there is a pill to fix this. It’s sad. He’s smart and funny and charming. But he’s also mean and angry and punitive. He feels threatened. He brags incessantly. He takes credit for any and everything. Literally our daughter said she did something little for the family and he corrected her mid-sentence and said he did it. He didn’t. She did. I can’t even. She’s done with it and doesn’t want the battle that ensues either. She just leaves the conversation.

I can’t understand why when he is capable of so much, he doesn’t use his abilities for good and happy. But, that’s the point, it’s not truly understandable even for him.

Boils down to whether I can continue on like this if he doesn’t see he has a problem.

He has "made up" stories in his mind about lots of things to explain his feelings; his feelings must be right and must have an explanation. It is part of his illness. In my case, some of those stories have caused my h to take some drastic steps because instead of checking on the validity of what he thinks happened, he reacts.

I think most of the folks who have been on the boards for a while have found that our loved ones with bpd traits seem to be attracted to drama and chaos and that will energize them. Sometimes, people talk about being a "grey rock" - being really, really boring to them emotionally to avoid feeding into the drama.

I really am trying to be non reactive. Things he does to try to annoy or bait me and I just let them roll off. Ignore the verbal insults. No reaction. Occasionally I trip up, but I am getting better. The flip side of this tactic is I’m caring less and less about him. I have more peaceful time to think about why the he! I am being treated/spoken to this way. I’m not perfect but I don’t deserve this. No one does. No one.

Like I said earlier, my h has had therapy and meds. Part of the reason that he decided to do that is I started holding some pretty firm boundaries that made him very uncomfortable. I stopped managing his emotions and let him feel what he was going to feel. He wasn't going to be able to deny some of the things that he had done, and he feels ashamed of those things (for good reason) - at least with me. His actions had consequences that I wasn't going to sweep under the rug any more.

All that being said, crises can bring out the drama and chaos in a way that is overwhelming. I've lived through that and made some choices at the time that were understandable given the situation but would have been different at another time. I became stronger through that period. I had a lot of processing and learning to do and learning how to have good boundaries to protect myself emotionally and physically.

The current situation is that you are "trapped" in the house with your h. The things he says are most likely coming from his feelings and the stories that he makes up to explain his feelings. He is reacting to the circumstances that keep you all trapped and probably wants to escape and is trying to do that (divorce, vacation, tv watching, weird not remembering...).

You are only responsible for yourself and your own health and interactions with your family. I'm glad you are working on your part and keeping yourself healthy.

Thanks Empath. All true. Looking at him and all of you circling me to look at myself has been hard and yet so rewarding. I have to know why I’ve allowed this. Not controlling him. Why have I allowed myself to be treated this way. Fear. Belief it could be fixed. Fear of future. Fear of how devious he will get if we divorce. The accusations he will fling. Just plain old fear.

But dreams of waking up knowing I’ll have a day without a battle or without being degraded. Problems, sure. But normal life problems.

While stuck, boundaries, boundaries, boundaries.

[UBPDHelp]

Current issue of the day.

H is an entertainment buff, movies, tv, books. He has definite favorites. We watch movies as it something we both enjoy. Me not as much, but occasionally...a lot right now.

Anyway. As I’ve mentioned, he has chosen to not work last few months. He could but won’t. If he did he wouldn’t be making as much as usual but something. Business got financing, we (mine) put in a little bit while waiting for financing to come through. Told me how much he would be able to use as income. Slight relief for short term. The actual amount was about a third of what he told me. No real explanation. Adjust, adjust plans. Okay. Then he starts with buying kids an expensive toy. Fun, but not needed. And then the middle of the night message (I’m sleeping). He wants to buy a memorabilia piece. Acknowledges it’s irresponsible but he doesn’t care. It’s a few hundred dollars. I paid two months of a couple bills so we could keep services on. Relied on him saying he had finances coming, made arrangements to pay later, which then became two months. There are still bills to pay.

I could tell him all of this. Show him the tracking of lack of income, how much we have to spend. He knows but refuses to acknowledge. Won’t discuss finances right now. Refuses. So I know piling this financial pressure on him will cause huge dysregulation. Do I do it?

I don’t even plan to reply to the message. I believe it’s a trap. Okay it so I’m responsible. Don’t agree, and then he can tell me how he makes all the money so he can buy a useless piece despite not being able to pay all of our bills. I live this frequently, just enhanced right now.

I saw this possibility coming based on a conversation we had the other day. I assumed at some point in the future he might want to. Like when he was working and we were caught up on bills. I actually told myself if he did this during no income pandemic, it would be indicative that it was time for me to go.

Am I overreacting?  I can discuss finances next week. Was determining that he needs to tell me when he’ll have more money (they are taking it a certain way, just don’t know what that is), so I can plan forward (with him?). I don’t want to do it now. Our daughter is graduating this weekend and Mother’s Day.  Would rather have a peaceful(ish) weekend.

Welcome, welcome advice. Bless you all!

[formflier]

"piling financial pressure" and asking him for his thoughts are completely different things, although I can see him trying to suggest that any question is too much.

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

"piling financial pressure" and asking him for his thoughts are completely different things, although I can see him trying to suggest that any question is too much.

It is. I try to manage and even during regular times he’s difficult. Of course I handled wrong for a long time and now my knee jerk is just to take care of financial hiccups and avoid having to listen to him. I know I can leave but I still know it’s happening, still needs to be resolved. Right now he just tells me to make sure I’m taking advantage of programs. I have done what I can and have one big one he has to deal with. He refuses to talk about or look at.

So, buying something totally unnecessary that could pay a couple necessities is just beyond my understanding. He says it’s irresponsible but doesn’t care. I’m just tired of dealing with this kind of thing. It’s a repeat.  Most of the time it amounts to an annoyance but it’s just so important to spend wisely right now.

Anyway, I’m pretty beat up over it. I’ll wait until next week and ask for his thoughts/input on one or two things.

Thanks FF.

[UBPDHelp]

Morning everyone. Hope everyone had a nice Mother’s Day. I feel blessed with my kiddos but always miss my mom, so I know it can be a mixed bag for many.   to all.

I’m trying desperately to get more rest and take time to think and step back. More energy and clearer thoughts.

I am not in a good place. Not exactly bad in my head, but still just wrestling with if it is worth it anymore.

The level of BPD/NPD traits he’s exhibiting is just beyond comprehension.  I know stress of pandemic and his own created stress (that caused the previous 6-9 months) has intensified this. And seeing him all day, everyday (not all day, but a lot) has just let it play out without a break. Maybe it makes it seem worse, but maybe it gives me the opportunity to see what’s really going on without a break artificially diminishing the magnitude. Anyone have thoughts on this?

On some level I feel like I shouldn’t base a final decision on this unusual time and part of me is afraid I’m finding just another excuse to look the other way.

I am really holding boundaries. I’ve seen him turn some BPD focus on our oldest, who he is closest with. Kid one is moving out as soon as pandemic takes a break. Some I think he’s doing it to avoid the feeling of abandonment when kid one goes.

Mostly had a nice day yesterday. He still does weird things. They are irritating and he thinks I don’t see it, I do. I just don’t acknowledge or feed it.

But wanted to share a quick story and what I took from it.  I have been told not to focus on what he does, but part of my journey right now IS understanding the dynamic, which includes what he’s doing. I promise it is not meant to point fingers, place blame or absolve me of responsibility. Truthfully, it feels like all he is is triggered right now and without understanding, we are in a constant state.

We had a favorite meal last night. I made it for kid two, who graduated on Saturday. There was some “voting” but ultimately did kid two’s choice won for celebratory weekend. H wouldn’t weigh in and just said let kids pick or I pick for Mother’s Day.

We all sat and it was good and enjoyable. Towards the end, the conversation turned to the cupcakes we got were almost gone and then kids saying they didn’t get one. They were not being upset and just sort of teasing each other. I said I only had one and kid three had one. Ultimately it boiled down to the fact that H had eaten all the others, except one or two. No one cared and no one even called him out to tease him and don’t even think the younger ones did the math. Anyway, kid one said they didn’t have one and H turns and says maybe not but you ate all the cereal (not true) and goes on to argue this point for two minutes, turns to the rest of us and says “well this meal sucked” and walks out.

No reaction from me. Wasn’t even upset.

So, I’m assuming that his poor reaction was because he felt shamed for eating all the cupcakes and then had to redirect blame on cereal thief and make me feel bad dinner was bad. Zero reaction.

Zero.  This is my goal. I just don’t take his dysregulation personally.

This was not a huge deal. Didn’t result in long rant. But it is this small incident that plays out over and over all day, every day and is exhausting. Throw in the full on rage dysregulations, which have been less the last few weeks, but know with certainty will return and it’s daunting at best.

Love thoughts on my assessment and if you have any recommendations of a better way to handle, although I feel okay with it.

Thanks all!

[formflier]

A bit of a random thought here...

Finances are triggering (fair to say?)


So that's likely not a good item to "lead with". 

How do you guys do on parenting stuff?  With kiddos couped up inside the house I would think there is a lot more time on everyone's hands (especially with graduations and school getting over).

I'm wondering if it's wise for you and hubby to discuss how your kids "spend" their time now and show some unity there.  If that works out, then come together on another important topic...then another.

At some point..raise the money issue.

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

A bit of a random thought here...

Finances are triggering (fair to say?)

Yes, first with him and now I think I am more triggered, but in a more handle and don’t make waves unless absolutely necessary kind of way. But a whole lot of internal turmoil, which is NOT good.

So that's likely not a good item to "lead with".

Agree  

How do you guys do on parenting stuff?  With kiddos couped up inside the house I would think there is a lot more time on everyone's hands (especially with graduations and school getting over).

Overall okay. The small stuff can be problematic. And I see unrealistic from him, but I may not see my unrealistic, idk. I’m sure he would.

For instance, big picture we agree on religion, health, extracurriculars (that there are, not necessarily what), etc.

Kids like to stay up late. I don’t and I enforce in bed by say 9. Kid three is 13, so I say in bed at 9, can do quiet stuff til 10. Kid four is 10, I say bed is at 9, so go to sleep. H thinks they can stay up late (more now with virtual school) and doesn’t always support bedtime now that they’re a bit older. I remind him he doesn’t deal with getting them out of bed in the morning.

But, yesterday he got upset that kids weren’t up early.  He had gotten up super early (had an issue addressing), which he NEVER does so I think it stood out that they weren’t up. They were getting up same time as always but now that he was early, he thought they should be.

Then to top it off, he got upset that kid three was taking too long to get ready (brush teeth, hair). He was banging on doors to wake them up and get out of bathroom. The thing is, if they are not cleaned up, he gets upset, but kid three was taking about 5 minutes to do so and he was getting upset. So stuff like that is difficult cuz it becomes lose-lose.

That said, on a global stance with the kids, we mostly agree.

I'm wondering if it's wise for you and hubby to discuss how your kids "spend" their time now and show some unity there.  If that works out, then come together on another important topic...then another.

At some point..raise the money issue.

Thoughts?

That may work. Not a ton of kid issues right now. Kid two looking for job now that graduating is a big one. Kid two is more mild mannered, stay away from dad a lot because he’s too intense, and dad is directing. Some is good and helpful but he could potentially bull doze his agenda. Kid two isn’t good at speaking up and I try to help navigate the conversation, but don’t always do great. But good place to try.

Thanks FF.

[babyducks]

Hello UBPDHelp,

The level of BPD/NPD traits he’s exhibiting is just beyond comprehension.  I know stress of pandemic and his own created stress (that caused the previous 6-9 months) has intensified this. And seeing him all day, everyday (not all day, but a lot) has just let it play out without a break. Maybe it makes it seem worse, but maybe it gives me the opportunity to see what’s really going on without a break artificially diminishing the magnitude. Anyone have thoughts on this?

My thought is that he probably always exhibited this level of traits and they were spread amongst the other people he typically interacted with.    He was probably off loading his negative emotions on/at people at his office,   the clerk at the store, etc etc.    You weren't the only recipient of them.   He has also become worse in the last year or so.    And you have become more able to recognize what is happening so you begin to see it more.    the pandemic has triggered his fears.    the financial stress has increased.     I would say a combination of all of the above.

But wanted to share a quick story and what I took from it.  I have been told not to focus on what he does, but part of my journey right now IS understanding the dynamic, which includes what he’s doing. I promise it is not meant to point fingers, place blame or absolve me of responsibility.

let me jump in here and maybe redirect.

I do not think you are pointing fingers.    I do not think you are placing blame.   I do not think you are trying to avoid responsibility.

I have been in your shoes.    I have been where you are now.   I know from experience that people who have been in close proximity to mental illness have focused on the illness so much and so long, they can't identify what they want any longer.   or who they are any longer.     I didn't know what I thought about anything towards the end of my relationship.   I didn't know how to treat myself well.    It was always all about the illness eating a hole in my personal life.   Never about me.    Never about what I thought.   Never about what I needed.    Never about what was good for me.     towards the end getting off the sofa was so exhausting it took everything I had.     I was so emotionally spent I was numb.   I had stuffed so many emotions for so long,  I couldn't feel anything.     I was depressed.    My self esteem was in tatters.    I looked for reasons to take more than my fair share of responsibility and blame.   I couldn't figure out what had happened and why it got to me so badly.

when I tell you to focus on yourself... I am trying to suggest you identify things that make your life better and more authentically yours.    Things that you enjoy.   If you hate the movies he watches on repeat... what do you enjoy?    Binge watching Downton Abbey?    Watching the Great British Baking show?   Identify that and find a way to enjoy that.     I know right now it's hard to focus on you.    You've been pushed aside for a long time.    I tell you to focus on you because you have value.   because you are an important and vital person.    because you are interesting and talented and bring a lot to the table.     I think it's time to bring that to the surface.

We all sat and it was good and enjoyable. Towards the end, the conversation turned to the cupcakes we got were almost gone and then kids saying they didn’t get one. They were not being upset and just sort of teasing each other. I said I only had one and kid three had one. Ultimately it boiled down to the fact that H had eaten all the others, except one or two. No one cared and no one even called him out to tease him and don’t even think the younger ones did the math. Anyway, kid one said they didn’t have one and H turns and says maybe not but you ate all the cereal (not true) and goes on to argue this point for two minutes, turns to the rest of us and says “well this meal sucked” and walks out.

No reaction from me. Wasn’t even upset.

So, I’m assuming that his poor reaction was because he felt shamed for eating all the cupcakes and then had to redirect blame on cereal thief and make me feel bad dinner was bad. Zero reaction.

Zero.  This is my goal. I just don’t take his dysregulation personally.

He doesn't have the emotional maturity and skills to handle this conversation.  He felt ~something~... blame, shame, entitlement, anger and redirected back at you and the kids.   That's what he does.     It is a good understanding to not take this outburst personally.   that's progress.    that's important.

the kids at the table are another part of this and I will leave it to those who have children to address.     I would suggest however that your attention and efforts might be directed towards them... who had another dinner interrupted with an outburst.     they are going to need support and validation to understand that what they did or said wasn't wrong... and that the feelings that they have at the outburst aren't wrong...

'ducks

[formflier]

I think you should consider what you want to chat with him about (and take action on) with kids and try to talk to him tomorrow or the next day.

"join with him" to get the ball rolling.

"You know...I also thought it was frustrating the way the kids were so slow getting going the other morning." (make sure you identify it and you and he are together...you can modify the words to do this.)

Then offer up some ideas for how kids "spend" their time  that they would have done at school.  Ask for his input as well. 

Ask him about how to "pay" kids after they have accomplished their task (maybe stay up late with him). 

Perhaps he can do stuff with them in day and the "celebrate" some with them in the evening.

The keys I would insist on from your side is accountability and natural consequences.  Kids do work well...fun stuff happens.  Kids' don't do work well...they don't get TV, games or other fun stuff.

After all..that's how life works..right?

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Hello UBPDHelp,

My thought is that he probably always exhibited this level of traits and they were spread amongst the other people he typically interacted with.    He was probably off loading his negative emotions on/at people at his office,   the clerk at the store, etc etc.    You weren't the only recipient of them.   He has also become worse in the last year or so.    And you have become more able to recognize what is happening so you begin to see it more.    the pandemic has triggered his fears.    the financial stress has increased.     I would say a combination of all of the above.

I agree. I know he has raged at his partner. He has told me the things he’s said, showed me emails he sent and I’ve heard him on the phone. Even some of those are based on what appears to be anxiety driven falsehoods. At some level he seems to even know it is irrational but can’t stop himself. I’ve had to talk him down a few times.

I feel bad for his partner, but it often means the heat is off me. He is fairly polite to service workers, but if they rub him the wrong way or he feels they are trying to take advantage of him, he will definitely put them in their place. All said, I am still his favorite target.

let me jump in here and maybe redirect.

I do not think you are pointing fingers.    I do not think you are placing blame.   I do not think you are trying to avoid responsibility.

I have been in your shoes.    I have been where you are now.   I know from experience that people who have been in close proximity to mental illness have focused on the illness so much and so long, they can't identify what they want any longer.   or who they are any longer.     I didn't know what I thought about anything towards the end of my relationship.   I didn't know how to treat myself well.    It was always all about the illness eating a hole in my personal life.   Never about me.    Never about what I thought.   Never about what I needed.    Never about what was good for me.     towards the end getting off the sofa was so exhausting it took everything I had.     I was so emotionally spent I was numb.   I had stuffed so many emotions for so long,  I couldn't feel anything.     I was depressed.    My self esteem was in tatters.    I looked for reasons to take more than my fair share of responsibility and blame.   I couldn't figure out what had happened and why it got to me so badly.

Exactly...that’s all.  Just exactly.

when I tell you to focus on yourself... I am trying to suggest you identify things that make your life better and more authentically yours.    Things that you enjoy.   If you hate the movies he watches on repeat... what do you enjoy?    Binge watching Downton Abbey?    Watching the Great British Baking show?   Identify that and find a way to enjoy that.     I know right now it's hard to focus on you.    You've been pushed aside for a long time.    I tell you to focus on you because you have value.   because you are an important and vital person.    because you are interesting and talented and bring a lot to the table.     I think it's time to bring that to the surface.

I am trying to do this. Doing more of what I want and not just bending to his wants. I’m trying to not be motherly to him. I think that helps.

He doesn't have the emotional maturity and skills to handle this conversation.  He felt ~something~... blame, shame, entitlement, anger and redirected back at you and the kids.   That's what he does.     It is a good understanding to not take this outburst personally.   that's progress.    that's important.

He does not have the emotional maturity at all.  He take all credit and none of the responsibility. I honestly see him as a shell of a man and feel sorry for him, until I recall all the vile, disgusting, hurtful things he’s said and done. Then I’m just mad.

the kids at the table are another part of this and I will leave it to those who have children to address.     I would suggest however that your attention and efforts might be directed towards them... who had another dinner interrupted with an outburst.     they are going to need support and validation to understand that what they did or said wasn't wrong... and that the feelings that they have at the outburst aren't wrong...

Thank you BabyDucks.  The kids have him more figured out than I do. My youngest is unaware for the most part.

I hate being trapped here for months on end. And yet, I think I may have just kept explaining it away if I wasn’t living it 24/7.

He does have good and thoughtful moments. He’s not all bad, but it’s so pronounced when he doesn’t get his way or he’s upset, he won’t even consider he needs help and he can be the absolute meanest person.

Thanks BabyDucks!

[UBPDHelp]

I think you should consider what you want to chat with him about (and take action on) with kids and try to talk to him tomorrow or the next day.

"join with him" to get the ball rolling.

"You know...I also thought it was frustrating the way the kids were so slow getting going the other morning." (make sure you identify it and you and he are together...you can modify the words to do this.)

Then offer up some ideas for how kids "spend" their time  that they would have done at school.  Ask for his input as well. 

Ask him about how to "pay" kids after they have accomplished their task (maybe stay up late with him). 

Perhaps he can do stuff with them in day and the "celebrate" some with them in the evening.

The keys I would insist on from your side is accountability and natural consequences.  Kids do work well...fun stuff happens.  Kids' don't do work well...they don't get TV, games or other fun stuff.

After all..that's how life works..right?

This all sounds good, but I’m noticing that it takes days for me to get ready AND for him to be in a place to participate. It’s taking so much effort to just discuss anything.

Today we were discussing doing some work on the house. Before pandemic we had gotten quotes to have the work professionally done. No income and that’s off the table. So he was thinking how he could do it and I said I’d help if there was something I could do. This pi$$ed him off. I couldn’t figure out how offering to pitch in on something that benefits us all could make someone angry. I’m guessing now that it made him feel like I thought he couldn’t do it himself. I was just trying to be nice and I believe most people would have seen it that way.

It’s those things that I walk into and can’t see until I’m in there.

We had to have a service professional come fix something. This set him into panic even though we could do it without contact. He still was on edge knowing it was happening. He came down this morning and I told him what time they were coming. His response?  He can’t wait until we divorce and they do an assessment on the work done and find out the electrician scammed us.

I provided no response and just walked out.

Tell me if there was something loaded in telling him what time the electrician was coming?

Bonus divorce and pandemic and scammed.

Anyway, I will try to have a minor kid conversation soon but I don’t know if he’ll be there. He spent today back on tv and knees bouncing despite not anything new happening.

[babyducks]

Tell me if there was something loaded in telling him what time the electrician was coming?

Do you think there was something loaded in telling him what time the electrician was coming?

Do you think you provoked him?     Do you think you are supposed to provide information so that he never gets upset?