Ex girlfriend considers me a cheater (maybe I am?), is there any way to recover?

[dumpedinlove]

Hi all, I'll jump right into it.

A preface: 2 years ago my (now ex) girlfriend dumped me for a period of 2 weeks while we were working abroad. During these 2 weeks, a girl kissed me. It was a girl that she thought I was having an affair with or something (which I wasn't), and the kiss happened during an incredibly emotional time. The girl was probably my closest and really only friend at the time, and when things were being patched up in the relationship, I denied that there was anything going on between us. It was a weird time, because there wasn't anything going on but the kiss obviously happened when we were apart. Despite that, I still recognise that it was a lie and I should have definitely been truthful. Honestly, I was acting selfishly and I knew she would not take it well. But she never let the idea that something had been happening go. For 2 years, she would constantly ask me about it, and if anything happened. She was obsessed with it I think. I lied every time and said nothing ever happened. Again, I fully recognise how awful that is. I felt shameful and guilty every time, I just felt no good would come of telling her that 2 years ago a kiss happened when we were apart and that I'd lied about it ever since. Despite how bad it was morally, I felt trapped.

Now, we've been broken up for 2 months for separate reasons but were still talking regularly. She's in the process of moving out and I've been trying to patch things up. I was going to see her yesterday when she rang as I was getting into the car. She had contacted this girl from 2 years ago to ask about it and this girl had said yes it happened, and even that more happened that is not true. She asked me to please tell her the truth, and so I did. And she exploded. Pure rage and fury, some of the worst stuff she has ever said to me. I tried to talk to her and apologise but she didn't want to hear anything. She deleted a load of pictures of me off her instagram, but for some reason didn't change anything about us following each other or being friends on all other social media. I thought I would let her cool off so didn't message for the rest of the day.

I sent her a message this morning apologising, thinking maybe cooler heads would prevail today. I was wrong. The tirade continued, and she claimed that she wants nothing to do with me. Our entire relationship is dead to her. That she wasted 2 humiliating years of her life because of it. That she's going to cut me off. I tried to both apologise for it all, and also try to rationally explain things a bit. She compared me to a friend who cheated on their girlfriend by sleeping with someone when together, but I feel like that's a different league altogether. Anyway she wasn't having any of it and I left things saying I'll just respect her and leave her be.

Is this the end of the road for our relationship? Is there at all any way to salvage this? I feel terrible for it all. Any advice would really be appreciated. Thanks

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[Min117]

I can only answer in what would be relatable to me. I hate lying. Every time I find out a lie that my wife told me, big or small, I can hardly handle it. Once that first lie happens, trust is broken. It seems like you are having a hard time regarding this, but you also had plenty of time to come clean and tell the truth. Even though as time passes it gets harder to do that. But the saying “the truth will set you free” is very true haha.
Maybe after some time passes you ex will be calmer about it. But I wouldn’t force to get forgiveness now. Space and patience is what you should give right now.
Good luck!

[dumpedinlove]

Thanks for the response. Wondering if its a case of leaving it until she reaches out to me (if that were to ever happen), or to reach back out myself after some time has passed?

[once removed]

Maybe after some time passes you ex will be calmer about it. But I wouldn’t force to get forgiveness now. Space and patience is what you should give right now.

i think this is solid advice.

i tend to support the fact that you didnt disclose what happened. you werent technically committed, and disclosing those sorts of things does tend to do a lot of harm, usually unnecessary.

your ex sees this as a huge betrayal, and as you having lied to her (the latter being technically true). people with BPD traits have enormous, inherent trust issues. i suspect thats all she can see right now. i suspect thats all she will be able to see for some time.

i think that theres a decent chance she will want to talk about it again, but on her own time. i dont think any good can come of you trying to make that happen. shes not ready, and even if she responds to you in the short term, it will likely be primarily to unload (if that happens, listen, listen, listen).

unfortunately, there isnt a lot of good you can do in terms of trying to resolve this. shes got to work it out and approach you on her terms, when shes ready to do so. theres a possibility that that may never happen. but it sounds like she hasnt 100% severed all ties yet; that could mean something.

[dumpedinlove]

i think that theres a decent chance she will want to talk about it again, but on her own time. i dont think any good can come of you trying to make that happen. shes not ready, and even if she responds to you in the short term, it will likely be primarily to unload (if that happens, listen, listen, listen).

Thank you so much for the response, super helpful. So the best course of action is sounds like is to just not message her and wait for her to come to me about it (if that ever happens). I'm still currently tied in a flat tenancy with her however so will very likely have to message her within the near future regarding that. Wondering if its worth ignoring the elephant in the room when having that conversation or is it better to ask if she would like to talk about things?

On the off chance she does want to talk in the short term, I'll do my best to listen. Our last conversation I tried to make her know I understood her pain, saying that I know this has hurt her and that I am remorseful for lying and she deserved better than that. I also tried to help de-escalate things by saying things like "Even though the kiss happened 2 years ago when we were apart, it wasn't right.". Is it stuff like this that is the right approach? Or am I doing the whole listening thing wrong still?

[once removed]

will very likely have to message her within the near future regarding that. Wondering if its worth ignoring the elephant in the room when having that conversation or is it better to ask if she would like to talk about things?

keep business as business, and do what you need to do. i wouldnt push on the subject of the two of you. if she wants to talk about things, i suspect youll know.

Our last conversation I tried to make her know I understood her pain, saying that I know this has hurt her and that I am remorseful for lying and she deserved better than that. I also tried to help de-escalate things by saying things like "Even though the kiss happened 2 years ago when we were apart, it wasn't right.". Is it stuff like this that is the right approach?

in general, i think thats the right approach. shes probably not in a place to hear your side, or "consider this", or look at another perspective. she, on some level, needs to lash out, get it all out, and while you dont want to be a begging door mat, the human nature in all of this is that shes going to want to have more of a give and take after shes gotten it out. i appreciate that thats kind of what happened, and nothing has happened since, but shes probably still, generally, in that mode, but also self soothing. let her do that.

the two of you are still friends on social media, do i have that right? ordinarily, after a breakup, if you were trying to attract her back, i would say "live your best life". in this case, i might advise laying low. any little thing may be too painful.

[dumpedinlove]

the human nature in all of this is that shes going to want to have more of a give and take after shes gotten it out.

So by this do you mean that now she's been able to lash out about it, she'll be more understanding and reasonable about the subject going forward?

I'll lay low and not message her for now, as hard as it feels to do that. I was reading another thread about rebuilding trust and I think it was you yourself that said it's important to be the one to rebuild it if I am not misremembering? I guess that means leave things for now and if she approaches me about it to try and reassure her as best I can. Does that sound right?

Also yes, correct about social media. Is it better to add stuff now and again so she can see me living normally after what has happened, or to lay completely low as to not flaunt?

[once removed]

So by this do you mean that now she's been able to lash out about it, she'll be more understanding and reasonable about the subject going forward?

i dont think, by her measure, she feels she has been able to lash out about it adequately, and will suddenly be cool.

i do think, in the short term, hopefully, and ideally, that is key to her blowing off steam, and the two of you being able to work to get on the same page.

i wouldnt be surprised if its a sticking point that repeats. youre not dealing with a person that easily lets go of things. im seeking to introduce you to the concept of seeing things her way, and its, inherently, a different way, perhaps a much more difficult way, of seeing things.

Is it better to add stuff now and again so she can see me living normally after what has happened, or to lay completely low as to not flaunt?

in this case, i would lay low. if you get dumped by somebody, and want to attract them, it tends to be good to put your best foot forward, show them what they might be missing, show some strength. in this case, and i think with some validity, thats just likely to anger her.

id lay low and not message her for now, as hard as it feels to do that.

[dumpedinlove]

im seeking to introduce you to concept of seeing things her way, and its, inherently, a different way, perhaps a much more difficult way, of seeing things.

Okay I think I understand. Basically allow her to blow off steam and try my best to be as understanding of that as possible, by being as considerate as I can to how she might feel in this situation. Sort of take ownership of what happened and try my best to agree with her (for now) about how she feels. Is that along the right lines?

[once removed]

Is that along the right lines?

yes. use this: https://bpdfamily.com/content/listen-with-empathy

the long and short of it is that empathy is probably the number one thing you need in these relationships, and that empathy is about not just understanding where shes coming from, but why. you will need to use what youve learned about BPD in order to do that. to really understand where another person is coming from is hard. to do so with a person whos experience is foreign to ours, even harder, but possible.

[dumpedinlove]

yes. use this: https://bpdfamily.com/content/listen-with-empathy

the long and short of it is that empathy is probably the number one thing you need in these relationships, and that empathy is about not just understanding where shes coming from, but why. you will need to use what youve learned about BPD in order to do that. to really understand where another person is coming from is hard. to do so with a person whos experience is foreign to ours, even harder, but possible.

Okay, makes a lot of sense. Thank you for your advice. I won't push her to talk but I'm going to be forced to text her and potentially see her in the near future to arrange moving out logistics, I may very lightly ask if she would like to talk when this happens but if she says no then I guess it will be best to leave it and just say ok?

[once removed]

sure. you dont wanta push.

[dumpedinlove]

So I had an interesting interaction with her today over text. She told me she wants no animosity, and definitely seems to have calmed from her anger. But she said she is very hurt and needs a lot of time. She also said that "we are never getting back together. ever". Which wasn't a great thing to hear to be honest. I'm glad that she isn't in rage mode anymore, but she seems to have entered a new phase of just not caring about anything related to me. I guess the 2 questions I have would be, is the whole we are never getting back together likely to stick forever, as in is this something that would only be said at a final discard? The second question would then be at what point would I start sharing more of living my best life on social media? I feel a bit stuck at the moment. Just hard to grasp if this really is it forever..

[once removed]

But she said she is very hurt and needs a lot of time. She also said that "we are never getting back together. ever". Which wasn't a great thing to hear to be honest.
...
Just hard to grasp if this really is it forever..

i dont mean to get your hopes up. i would just ask you to consider, how many times, in how many relationships, and in precisely that context, such a thing has been said.

it isnt time yet, necessarily, to take those words at face value.

neither would i dismiss them. more important than "we are never getting back together" is "i am very hurt and need a lot of time". take that to heart, at face value...thats the place she was speaking from. when someone utters those words, theres a fine line between "im going to protect myself from being vulnerable" and "ive begun to grieve this relationship and cant go back". time, and how the two of you interact, may have a great deal to do with how that plays out.

dont underestimate the challenge before you, if you do reconcile. this could come up for as long as your relationship could last.

The second question would then be at what point would I start sharing more of living my best life on social media?

there is no time limit. personally, i would continue to lie low.

[dumpedinlove]

more important than "we are never getting back together" is "i am very hurt and need a lot of time". take that to heart, at face value...thats the place she was speaking from. when someone utters those words, theres a fine line between "im going to protect myself from being vulnerable" and "ive begun to grieve this relationship and cant go back". time, and how the two of you interact, may have a great deal to do with how that plays out.

Yes that makes a lot of sense, I see now that the heart of it is that she has now admitted she is very hurt and that it won't be fixed quickly. I will be as patient as possible with this. I think my current plan is to be as empathetic in every interaction going forward, and not discuss our relationship until either she does so, or maybe if the time feels right in a month or two. The one thing I have uncertainty over is whether it is more appropriate to continue to show her moving forward that I am in this vulnerable place of still being totally in love with her (as in remind her of it every so often but not push the relationship), or if its better to act as if I have moved on, not mentioning those feelings whatsoever?

[once removed]

to show her moving forward that I am in this vulnerable place of still being totally in love with her (as in remind her of it every so often but not push the relationship), or if its better to act as if I have moved on, not mentioning those feelings whatsoever?

there might be a middle ground.

now is not the time to prove your ever lasting love, or your hard edged (im moving on) strength.

now is the time to play it cool. give her the time and space shes requested. reading between the lines, its more than likely that she will make the next move. if she doesnt, there might be a move to play.

[dumpedinlove]

there might be a middle ground.

now is not the time to prove your ever lasting love, or your hard edged (im moving on) strength.

now is the time to play it cool. give her the time and space shes requested. reading between the lines, its more than likely that she will make the next move. if she doesnt, there might be a move to play.

Thank you for all of your advice. I'll play it cool and focus on building my life up again for now, and see in a couple of months how things are I guess. I'm a bit worried that she may want friendship and not a relationship down the road, but I guess I will cross that bridge if I ever get to it. I do wonder though if you have any thoughts on what it is that brings them back if they ever do come back?

[once removed]

see in a couple of months how things are I guess.
...
I do wonder though if you have any thoughts on what it is that brings them back if they ever do come back?

around 60% of relationships go through a make up/break up cycle, and get back together.

that isnt unique to bpd, and neither is what it takes to re-attract someone, get them to come back.

what it takes entirely depends on the two people, the state of the relationship, how far it has broken down, how far either party has grieved, and perhaps most importantly, whether one or both parties understand what broke down the relationship and have a game plan for what is going to radically change to get it on a healthier, more sustainable trajectory.

what does it take to get her back? understanding...in terms of both actions, and words. it takes reading her, understanding where shes coming from, and how to respond to it, and assuming she comes back, it takes understanding how youre going to lead the relationship onto that healthier trajectory.

there are no guarantees or silver bullets. its all, right now, a matter of playing the best cards you have, with the hand youve been dealt.

[dumpedinlove]

what it takes entirely depends on the two people, the state of the relationship, how far it has broken down, how far either party has grieved, and perhaps most importantly, whether one or both parties understand what broke down the relationship and have a game plan for what is going to radically change to get it on a healthier, more sustainable trajectory.

what does it take to get her back? understanding...in terms of both actions, and words. it takes reading her, understanding where shes coming from, and how to respond to it

So in my personal opinion, I don't think it had broken down too far, and I think both of us understand what went wrong - I wasn't reading between the lines and her needs felt unmet at the heart of it. My worry is more related to when you say how far either party has grieved. She has moved out now, which is a big transition. I've learnt a lot here and hear you when you say it takes understanding. But there's a clash in my mind, that if she's moved out and currently wants time and space, being understanding means giving her that, which is also more time to grieve the relationship. It feels like I'm in a lose-lose scenario of sorts. I want to be as understanding as possible, I want to read between the lines, I want to appreciate her needs and try my best to help that, but is all of that giving her closure on the relationship too?

[once removed]

It feels like I'm in a lose-lose scenario of sorts.

i get this completely.

its a really anxiety inducing situation. anxiety tends to tell us we need to act.

i want to reiterate my point about there not being any silver bullets. playing your best cards doesnt guarantee you will reconcile. it gives you the best odds. if it doesnt work out, that doesnt mean, necessarily, you played the wrong cards, or played them badly.

its sort of like this: giving her space could give her the space to fully grieve the relationship, yes. but chasing her could really push her into overdrive toward doing so.

you spoke less than two days ago. she has feelings...a lot of them raw, and wounded. but that wouldnt be if she had no feelings at all. does that mean she wont ultimately determine that its best to walk away? no. but what she needs first and foremost is the space to work through them and determine that.

not discuss our relationship until either she does so, or maybe if the time feels right in a month or two

you dont want to give this that long. you dont want to go off of her radar entirely. you just want to stay on her radar in the right doses. i would primarily be letting her initiate any conversation. a week or two without any might be normal, but at that point, id be finding (good) excuses to be in touch, and gauge her reaction.

id be posting on social media, id just be doing it sparingly, and not posting about how great my life is going, but making it a bit more vague and agnostic.

[dumpedinlove]

you dont want to give this that long. you dont want to go off of her radar entirely. you just want to stay on her radar in the right doses. i would primarily be letting her initiate any conversation. a week or two without any might be normal, but at that point, id be finding (good) excuses to be in touch, and gauge her reaction.

Okay that makes sense. If a couple of weeks pass without contact and I get in touch, I assume that should be something unrelated to our relationship and just something more general?

id be posting on social media, id just be doing it sparingly, and not posting about how great my life is going, but making it a bit more vague and agnostic.

Okay, I'll start posting every so often something unrelated to me personally and just general I think.

I guess I get some anxiety about if I am trying to be more understanding, how she would know that if we don't really talk about us if that makes sense?

[once removed]

I assume that should be something unrelated to our relationship and just something more general?

this really depends on your relationship uniquely. feel it out. dont contact her out of impulse or anxiety. but if you have a solid idea that you think will connect that you would typically act on, id go with it. you can seek input here before you do. it doesnt have to take a week or two if its a solid idea.

I guess I get some anxiety about if I am trying to be more understanding, how she would know that if we don't really talk about us if that makes sense?

women can sense this sort of thing. we all (both sexes) tend to over analyze our partners after a breakup, and look for or notice (sometimes over attribute credit to) changes. if you start to make the changes, she will notice, even in a sort of abstract, vague way. if they are attractive changes, she will push further.

[dumpedinlove]

this really depends on your relationship uniquely. feel it out. dont contact her out of impulse or anxiety. but if you have a solid idea that you think will connect that you would typically act on, id go with it. you can seek input here before you do. it doesnt have to take a week or two if its a solid idea.

I think over the next several weeks there will be stuff to contact her over as we are ending our shared tenancy of our flat so there will be stuff around that. I wonder if it's worth feeling out those conversations with more general questions as well about how she's doing etc? My biggest worry I suppose is once the flat stuff is out of the way then I guess there's a fear of there will be nothing important enough to message about. But I suppose I can cross that bridge when I get to it and seek advice here as you say.

women can sense this sort of thing. we all (both sexes) tend to over analyze our partners after a breakup, and look for or notice (sometimes over attribute credit to) changes. if you start to make the changes, she will notice, even in a sort of abstract, vague way. if they are attractive changes, she will push further.

In that case I will try to make as much progress as I can in the short term while we are interacting more frequently in regards to our flat, and hope that some of those things I learn come out more naturally when I speak to her.

[dumpedinlove]

Just adding onto this some thoughts I've had over the past day or two. She hasn't brought up our relationship or what's happened really since around the time it happened. She needs space and I understand that. I'm wondering if its a good or bad idea to send a message at some point relatively soon that explains what I thought went wrong, how I'm working on that, but also that it's okay if she's saying she never wants to be together again because I'm working on it anyway. Is sending something like that and phrasing it in a way that doesn't necessarily warrant a reply a bad idea?

Also, I'll be near where she lives this weekend. I had a brief conversation last night with her letting her know I'll be going to our shared flat as she wanted some heads up when I do. The conversation was short, I kept it to the point but was pleasant, it felt like the most understanding I could be and I could read that she didn't want a full conversation. I'm wondering if it is worth at the weekend just mentioning that I recognise she needs space but if she would like to have a coffee or something that I'd be happy to. Or is the simple act of asking that indicative of me not understanding she needs space?

[once removed]

I'm wondering if its a good or bad idea to send a message at some point relatively soon that explains what I thought went wrong, how I'm working on that, but also that it's okay if she's saying she never wants to be together again because I'm working on it anyway. Is sending something like that and phrasing it in a way that doesn't necessarily warrant a reply a bad idea?

obviously it depends on what you would say, but in the best case, it sounds like a hail mary, and in the worst case, it doesnt sound like listening. it sounds like telling her your perspective.

more effective than that might be saying youd like to talk (listen) about this, and if she says okay, she says okay, if she shuts it down, you know its a no go.

I'm wondering if it is worth at the weekend just mentioning that I recognise she needs space but if she would like to have a coffee or something that I'd be happy to. Or is the simple act of asking that indicative of me not understanding she needs space?

this is a case where if you feel good about it, i wouldnt complicate things or preface with "i know you need space, but...", id just ask. similarly, if shes open to it, great, if not, no big harm done, just tells you the ice hasnt thawed.

id also try the latter before i tried the former.

[dumpedinlove]

obviously it depends on what you would say, but in the best case, it sounds like a hail mary, and in the worst case, it doesnt sound like listening. it sounds like telling her your perspective.

more effective than that might be saying youd like to talk (listen) about this, and if she says okay, she says okay, if she shuts it down, you know its a no go.

Yeah that makes sense. I'm wondering if its worth saying something which says I'll actually be listening and that I feel I was only hearing before, and so would like to talk with the mindset of truly listening to what is being said now?

this is a case where if you feel good about it, i wouldnt complicate things or preface with "i know you need space, but...", id just ask. similarly, if shes open to it, great, if not, no big harm done, just tells you the ice hasnt thawed.

id also try the latter before i tried the former.

Okay, I guess it's best to perhaps phrase it in a way that is respectful but not emphasizing that she needs space? Would something like this work? "Would you be open to a coffee this weekend to talk? Will completely understand if not, but wanted to ask as it's not often I'm around." Or is it best to simply ask just the first line of that?

Also agree with the latter before the former, I suppose if she rejects the latter I could direct things towards messaging instead.

[once removed]

Yeah that makes sense. I'm wondering if its worth saying something which says I'll actually be listening and that I feel I was only hearing before, and so would like to talk with the mindset of truly listening to what is being said now?

psychologically, its more attractive to subtly communicate that kind of thing.
 

Okay, I guess it's best to perhaps phrase it in a way that is respectful but not emphasizing that she needs space? Would something like this work? "Would you be open to a coffee this weekend to talk? Will completely understand if not, but wanted to ask as it's not often I'm around." Or is it best to simply ask just the first line of that?

i wouldnt beat around the bush. id put myself out there and just ask, once, and only once. that wont kill you or reinforce the idea that you dont "get it". it would also be more confident, and less walking on eggshells. she may reject it, and it may feel like you blew it, but thats highly unlikely.

and if she does reject it, be cool, dont over explain, just back off. worst case scenario, she says no, she yells at you, she says you dont get it. you back off, she sees that you do, and then she feels bad or unreasonable and some of the ice thaws. best case scenario, she says yes, but no telling how that will go.

[dumpedinlove]

psychologically, its more attractive to subtly communicate that kind of thing.

Okay got it, no need to emphasize I'm listening if I am actually listening I suppose.

i wouldnt beat around the bush. id put myself out there and just ask, once, and only once. that wont kill you or reinforce the idea that you dont "get it". it would also be more confident, and less walking on eggshells. she may reject it, and it may feel like you blew it, but thats highly unlikely.

and if she does reject it, be cool, dont over explain, just back off. worst case scenario, she says no, she yells at you, she says you dont get it. you back off, she sees that you do, and then she feels bad or unreasonable and some of the ice thaws. best case scenario, she says yes, but no telling how that will go.

Ok so maybe sending something tomorrow just like "Hey, any chance you would like to get a coffee tomorrow to talk?". And if she says no, just say "okay no worries" and back off. Does that sound better? I'm guessing if she is cold about the idea of meeting then she may likely not want to talk over text either thinking about it. So I suppose it may be best to back off entirely and broach the subject maybe a few days or a week later about talking through messages?

[Harri]

This thread reached the post limit and has been locked and split.  Part 2 is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=344768.msg13111828#msg13111828

Thank you.