Need advice, I don't know if this is an ethical thing to do...

[Depression = 72% of members]

Although my mom is uBPD, she has been diagnosed and in treatment for depression for a couple of decades. She sees a psychiatrist, as well as a therapist
While I was still living at home, in the same country as her, I saw a therapist to help with budding issues I had as a teenager. Around the same time as I started seeing her, my mum got an appointment with my therapist and began seeing her weekly.
I have since moved away from home and no longer see this therapist. Recently though, I've had a thought and I don't know if it is kind of a bad thing to do. I'm a little ashamed to admit it but I've been thinking of getting in touch with this therapist again and speaking of my suspicions that my mother might have BPD. I'm convinced my mother will never get a BPD diagnosis or the BPD-specific help that goes along with it, and I feel really tempted to speak to my ex-therapist/her current therapist about it.

Is this wrong? It feels a little shady of me, and if my mother were to find out, it would surely be bad, but sometimes I feel so desperate with her behaviour that I think I might try just about anything to get her the appropriate help.

[TeaWithMilk]

Although my mom is uBPD, she has been diagnosed and in treatment for depression for a couple of decades. She sees a psychiatrist, as well as a therapist
While I was still living at home, in the same country as her, I saw a therapist to help with budding issues I had as a teenager. Around the same time as I started seeing her, my mum got an appointment with my therapist and began seeing her weekly.
I have since moved away from home and no longer see this therapist. Recently though, I've had a thought and I don't know if it is kind of a bad thing to do. I'm a little ashamed to admit it but I've been thinking of getting in touch with this therapist again and speaking of my suspicions that my mother might have BPD. I'm convinced my mother will never get a BPD diagnosis or the BPD-specific help that goes along with it, and I feel really tempted to speak to my ex-therapist/her current therapist about it.

Is this wrong? It feels a little shady of me, and if my mother were to find out, it would surely be bad, but sometimes I feel so desperate with her behaviour that I think I might try just about anything to get her the appropriate help.

[Imatter33]

Hi Tea, 

 As validating as it could be to have a professional use an official label for your mother, I would dare to say that the diagnosis in and of itself is not altogether helpful. Here is why.
I believe the author of stop walking on eggshells, Randi Kreger defines people with BPD, or people that are suspected as having BPD are high conflict personalities. There is not much good a diagnosis will do for your mother if she is not the one seeking help for herself. If the label part is not handled delicately it can be weaponized.

My mother is undiagnosed, and a lot of us here on the board can relate to you wanting a definitive answer.

In any case though, you found this resource.  In your research that led you to the forum, you can attest to a pattern of behavior that makes your mom a high conflict personality. That makes you believe she is  undiagnosed BPD (uBPD.) And that is good enough for seeking support and resources.

I would not put yourself  or her counselor in an unethical dilemma but would suggest looking into a therapist for yourself? What do you think about that? The saftey that relationship would afford you to talk, hypothesize and vent could be where you are leaning?

Also there are a host of wise members here that will walk alongside you too. 

[Turkish]

This might give you validation if they both agree, but what then?

We see partners on the Bettering Board, not to mention those on the Parenting Board whose loved ones are diagnosed with BPD, yet they are still here. 

Years ago, my T told me that even with treatment, "personalities typically don't change."

A good focus here might be better to learn the tools and focus upon yourself,  while continuing to get peer support.

My mother was DX'd with depression, Anxiety and PTSD. She went through seven therapists after I moved out at 18. She was on meds. She admitted to me that one of her therapists gave a roundabout Dx of BPD and my mom admitted to me that she likely had BPD. She was still who she was, a decent,moral woman and a rescuer of waifs, but she was also a hoarder, living on the edge, struggling always, and easily triggered to anger. She was who she was. 

[Methuen]

I'm convinced my mother will never get a BPD diagnosis or the BPD-specific help that goes along with it, and I feel really tempted to speak to my ex-therapist/her current therapist about it.

Is this wrong? It feels a little shady of me, and if my mother were to find out, it would surely be bad, but sometimes I feel so desperate with her behaviour that I think I might try just about anything to get her the appropriate help.

I'm going to dissect this a little bit, as I'm trying to figure out what is behind your goal here. You're convinced your mother will never seek help to get a diagnosis, or agree to any counselling (I'm reading between the lines there so correct me if I'm wrong about that), but you would still like to know for yourself if she has BPD.  If you were able to get an answer, would it change anything?  What would it change?  Why is the diagnosis important to you?  
I'm going to speculate here that many or most of us who post, refer to our uBPD parent.  My mom is 84, has refused to entertain seeing a counsellor her whole life, and also refused joint counselling with her husband (my father), and (after my father died) she also refused counselling with me.  I consider my mom a high conflict personality.  It doesn't really matter that I don't have a "clinical" diagnosis for her, because I still use all the strategies I have learned here as well as from my T, and the books I have read.  It has all helped ME to cope with her.  I was the one who wanted the help, because I too was once desperate.  My mom never wanted help.

I blame the BPD for my mom's dysfunction.  I don't blame my mom.  The BPD is a result of severe trauma she suffered from her FOO in her childhood, and until she left home.  That trauma wasn't her fault.  She had a completely crazy dad who abused all his six of his daughters and one son.  They all had the same traits as my mom.  Mom has coped with life the best she can.  I have little doubt that she has BPD, but whether it is BPD or something else doesn't really matter, if the strategies I have learned help ME live MY life better.  I can't fix her BPD.  She once told me she liked herself the "way she was".  She never wanted help.  All I can do is learn how to better manage my reactions to her, because the time came where I wasn't coping with her.

Is this wrong? It feels a little shady of me, and if my mother were to find out, it would surely be bad, but sometimes I feel so desperate with her behaviour that I think I might try just about anything to get her the appropriate help.

Trying to understand and find answers isn't wrong or shady.  The counsellor would soon figure out that you were searching for a "diagnosis".  The counsellor can't actually diagnose.  It's not within their professional training.  A doctor has to do that.  A counsellor also can't breach client-patient confidentiality or they could lose their license.  

Nevertheless, it's not wrong to wish for a diagnosis.  You are probably just looking for explanation, and meaning in your mom's behavior.  BPD is a horrible disease.  But I'm still wondering why the "diagnosis" is so important to you.  Could it be because she has always blamed you, and you are searching for something concrete to know the conflict is not your fault?  

If any part of that guess is in the ball park, well, it's not your fault.  

It's the disease's fault.  

sometimes I feel so desperate with her behaviour that I think I might try just about anything to get her the appropriate help.

TeawithMilk, I really want to emphasize something:  this is all about you, and supporting you to figure out how to cope with her disease.  You can't fix her.  You're not responsible for her.  You can only control how you react to her.  Can you tell us more about her behavior that is making you feel so desperate?  

[zachira]

I think I might understand what you are trying to say. You would like your mother to get diagnosed with BPD and get the help she needs to become the mother you deserve. Having a mother who treats her children badly, is a lifelong heartbreak. There can be periods of time in which many of us with a mother with BPD want to do anything to help our mother get better, to wish she would treat us like a loving mother treats her children and genuinely apologize for how she has mistreated us. Accepting that a mother with BPD will never change, means sorting through lots of heartbreak and hurtful incidences while finding ways to not take so personally how our mother mistreats us. Many of us do get to a better place in which we mostly accept our mother will never give us the love and respect we deserve while recognizing that being mistreated by the mother who was supposed to give her children unconditional love will always hurt at some level. I think you may be trying to strike a balance between not giving up on your mother while trying to accept her for how she is.

[TeaWithMilk]

Hi everyone,
Thank you all for your thoughtful and elaborate responses.
While my mum has been in treatment for depression, I think it has often only helped to feed her BPD. From my understanding, in therapy, she portrays her rage outbursts and other cruel behaviours as perfectly called for reactions to my sister and I. I think my concern is that the support she receives from her therapist might be validating certain behaviours which in reality are very harmful to us, but when explained to her therapist, are perfectly rational reactions.
I think my ultimate goal of bringing BPD into her therapist's attention would be for her to receive better-tailored help that might help her cope with her anger, which I imagine must affect her quite a bit. It's perhaps a little naive but I wish she would have somebody who could genuinely hold her accountable. I'm not sure this would help her behaviour change, though, in the past when her and my dad went into marriage counselling, she exploded in rage at the suggestion that some of the issues might be her fault.

Nevertheless, it's not wrong to wish for a diagnosis.  You are probably just looking for explanation, and meaning in your mom's behavior.  BPD is a horrible disease.  But I'm still wondering why the "diagnosis" is so important to you.  Could it be because she has always blamed you, and you are searching for something concrete to know the conflict is not your fault?  

TeawithMilk, I really want to emphasize something:  this is all about you, and supporting you to figure out how to cope with her disease.  You can't fix her.  You're not responsible for her.  You can only control how you react to her.  Can you tell us more about her behavior that is making you feel so desperate?  

I think what I'm most looking for in a diagnosis is for her to receive support that is suited to her BPD. I'm concerned she is suffering a lot and the strategies for dealing with "traditional" depression might not be helping her. I often think she doesn't actually want help but prefers instead to use her diagnosed depression as a shield and excuse for her behaviour.

On a different, more selfish note, I think I'm just a little thirsty for some accountability. It feels like she will always get away with her behaviour while my sister and I are the ones who have to work to feel better. It feels unfair but I know the nature of this whole disorder is unfair!

Thanks for the support everyone, being on this website has been a huge help already.

[Panda39]

Sometimes too there are insurance issues around a BPD diagnosis or stigma related to BPD that the Therapist could be working around.  It may be the Therapist sees the BPD/BPD Traits but uses the Depression diagnosis - which could be argued is a more common and socially acceptable diagnosis - it could be a diagnosis that your mom can accept and that keeps her going to therapy (which is a good thing).  We don't really know what the Therapist thinks, but just wanted to throw out another possible perspective.

I think you should just let them work together, if the Therapist is good they will figure it out, particularly the longer they work together.  We often find that the BPD symptoms show themselves to the people we know best...it becomes harder to hide.  So the more comfortable she becomes with the Therapist walls can come down. 

When I arrived here there were two major things I was struggling with regarding my Partner's uBPDxw one was anger and the other was control. 

What I am hearing here is the desire to control.  I'm going to challenge you to let go of trying to control what your mom is doing or not doing in therapy and what the Therapist is or is not doing in therapy.  That is between them.  Radical acceptance may be something to look at...letting go of control and accepting what is.

More on Radical Acceptance... https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=89910.0

Panda39

[Notwendy]

I didn't have a "diagnosis" for my BPD mom until recently.  She has been in treatment off and on for decades, and none of it has been effective because she is in such denial that she doesn't think there is anything wrong with her. Did her T's know she has BPD? Did she get a diagnosis? I have no idea because the main theme in our home was that- nothing is wrong with her and we had better go along with that- or else.

I recall feeling like you do - wanting to know what was going on- so that she could get the "right" treatment- as if it was possible for someone with the right information to "fix" her. But I don't think it is possible to help someone who isn't going to be open and honest about themselves and willing or able to do the work to help themselves. I say "able" because some mental illnesses are so severe that it inhibits their ability to work on themselves. But even with a severe disorder- the willingness is important- go to therapy, be honest, take medicine if needed. Although she is cognitively intact, she's not willing and I sometimes wonder if she's even able to. No therapist or diagnosis can change that.

I actually did what you are suggesting- at least tried, but the T wouldn't speak to me. That's professional ethics. I tried out of naivety. But most T's won't discuss a patient with someone without permission. My mother did not give permission to speak to any of her doctors or T's.

I will join the rest and say it's more about you. You want some validation and to at least know you tried. I can understand that. I wanted validation too. I eventually figured out she had BPD from reading, but no diagnosis.

I did finally know the truth when, as an elderly widow, she did sign for her care team to speak to me. But she can't know about it. If she had any inkling , she'd dismiss them all. They do have legal consent- she had to list someone, and it's me, but doing that is different that finding out they spoke to me. She would feel betrayed. But we only speak when it has to do with her care. She holds it together well in public, but now she has help at home and in time, a professional will figure it out. She does have BPD. It was validating to hear it. However, it doesn't change the impact of her care- because her condition includes denial and projection.

So yes, it's OK to want the validation, but this may happen in its own time, or not.

In the meantime, you can learn about how to deal with a pwBPD. These are good tools to have with any disordered person.

[wmm]

My family therapist, who I also saw on my own, was the one who told me that my mother had BPD. I had never heard of it before. This did help me understand that it was an illness and to take it less personally. The thing is, she doesn't know she has BPD, or at least she's never told us she knows. My sister and I did talk to a psychiatrist who was treating my mother when she was in the hospital about how we thought our mother had BPD. She ended up doing DBT. It was a risk though because, as I already knew, the psychiatrist told us that they did not have to keep what I said secret and that if they felt it was helpful, they would tell my mother that my sister and I had spoken to them. If you tell her therapist, your mother could find out that you told them and this might create more conflict.

On the other hand, I know how much we all yearn for a "cure" or at least for things to get a bit better. From my experience, DBT wasn't a "cure". It may have helped her a bit but The Turn still happens and the relationship hasn't changed.

When it comes down to it, the best that can be done is to work on how to care for yourself and to know that what happened is not fair and you deserve better. Unfortunately, you might not be able to get anything better from your mother. We choose our friends, not our family. Are there other people in your life who you can turn to since you can't find solace or be treated fairly by your mother?

[Turkish]

On the other hand, I know how much we all yearn for a "cure" or at least for things to get a bit better. From my experience, DBT wasn't a "cure". It may have helped her a bit

This reinforces what my T said, "personalities typically don't change." So it's up to us to deal. 

[Notwendy]

When it comes down to it, the best that can be done is to work on how to care for yourself and to know that what happened is not fair and you deserve better. Unfortunately, you might not be able to get anything better from your mother.


Yes.
The person who probably wanted the "cure" for my mother was my father. I'm pretty sure he believed it was possible. Decades of therapy. He gave her the best he could. I was too young to understand when I was younger. Eventually she didn't go at times. It just didn't work.

Although I didn't know her diagnosis ( I would be willing to bet she had been diagnosed but this wasn't disclosed to me) I knew there was something going on. I had taken a couple of courses in psychology in school. I thought the topic was interesting in general but also, I was curious to figure out what was going on. My mother's behavior had a major influence on our family and we were not allowed to say anything about it.

So one day I asked my father " why isn't she seeing a psychiatrist?" and in a moment of honesty he said " it doesn't work".

To be fair to pwBPD- there are pwBPD who do improve and work on their condition. Some have read this board and sadly posted- "are you writing off pwBPD?" and I don't think that fair. But I do think that being open to asking for help and willing to work with a T is necessary for anyone to benefit from it. And not just BPD. Even people without disorders may benefit from seeing a T for different reasons.

I just know from multiple tries to get her help, that my mother isn't one of them. She's not willing and maybe not able to.

[JNChell]

I’d like to echo Turkish here. Technicalities aside, the personality is there. As he asked, what then? Knowing this or that won’t change the dynamic. I’m not trying to be harsh.

Once we immerse ourselves in this research and learning, it can become easy to lean heavily on BPD. Ok, we have that part of the puzzle. What then? Does that conclusion really help us to feel any better? Perhaps it grants us some perspective, but as with everything new, it will wear off. The true path to healing is accepting where you’ve come from, denouncing what has caused you pain and forging your own path forward.

I understand your wishes for her to get a clinical diagnosis so that she can receive proper treatment. Do you think a diagnosis would sway her? Typically, if an individual wants to change, they pursue that on their own. They are or have become self aware of themselves and realize that they need help. Would a BPD diagnosis do this for her?

[TeaWithMilk]

Thank you all again for your responses. I'm grateful for this community.
I have a lot of work to do on myself, especially since I will probably be home with my mother for the foreseeable future. I've been feeling my depression creep back in recently, and my usual strategy in dealing with it is establishing a good routine, which is difficult when my mum is around: whether she's exploding in rage or simply bored and creeping into my space, there's not a huge scope for independence at home.

She's been feeling very off recently, but to be fair, she has had "a bad slump" for many years now. I am not sure how she might react to a new diagnosis. On one hand, her awareness of her depression took her into therapy and onto medication. At the same time, she often uses her diagnosis not as fuel for change and growth, but as an excuse to behave as she pleases.
Yesterday we had a conversation where she admitted that she has plateaued in terms of mental health and that she'd like to see a new psychiatrist and therapist who can help her feel better.
This conversation gave me a little hope that she might be able to consider a different diagnosis and perhaps get better-suited help. It's hard to tell though. It seems to me that she is a little on the line between being open to help and being closed off to actual progress.
In short, a diagnosis could either help her or further complicate things.

All of you are really right in suggesting I turn the focus on myself and look for coping strategies, as well as more profound self-help.
I think that without a BPD diagnosis for her, I feel pretty certain that it is the issue she is facing, and even if she can't get help for it, it's kickstarted a journey of healing for me, and that is very powerful. Thank you all for taking the time to reply to my post. This forum is making a big difference in my life