Who is making who crazy here? Needing feedback on this text thread

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hello community,

Thanks for reading this. I really need your help. Would you mind reading the following text message thread I had with my partner and let me know what you see here? I apologize in advance for its length...I felt if I edited it in any way, it would not be accurate.

We have had therapy in the past which was helpful to a point, and it backfired in other ways. (That is a whole other thread.) We have talked about breaking up, many times, including a few days earlier. This time, I had said I would speak with a therapist to help me have the strength to have that conversation. We are currently separated, and have very little contact for a few years now, because it always ends in a fight of some kind. I feel worn down, depressed and stuck, and he often tells me he feels hopeless.

A little bg: my partner is from another English speaking country (he lives here now) and I had just sent him a video (with no commentary from me) of a particular doctor's views on the pandemic, that a nurse friend had shared with me.

The following themes are not new to us, as I am sure you can imagine. Thanks in advance for your help. 

Okay, (deeeeep breathhhhhh)... here it is:

Him: I believe I understand where you are coming from, but I think you're engaging in a very dangerous slippery slope. Right now this country is caught in the midst of an era of disinformation. I see waaaay too many red flags with [this doctor's] work to give it any attention. One of the reasons that this kind of thinking is very dangerous is because it intersects with a deep culturization in the US around individual freedom. As a result, I see huge amounts of confirmation bias that lead people to get very riled up, to the point of issuing aggressive threats to coop board members and staff.

[note to readers: he is referring to another incident (not related to the video) where our local co-op, which we both wholeheartedly support, was admonished publicly by someone for requiring shoppers to wear masks.]

Him: Please, please, please step back and consider that you are very susceptible to trusting people who should not be trusted right now bc their agenda (and therein their identity) is, my opinion, disconnecting from their wisdom.

Me: That's why I only send this info to you and don't post it on FB, for that very reason. I am not in the camp of the people who are threatening the co-op board members.

Please, if you want me to consider a different viewpoint know that I am open to it when it comes to issues around [video subject matter], or any other big topic for that matter. For example, in this conversation I would prefer that you just share your viewpoint about the Dr, w/out assuming confirmation bias on my part. For example, I AM interested to know why you feel I have confirmation bias. Maybe I do, but your assumption that I do w/o us exploring what my motivation was for sending the video to you in the first place, is problematic for me. Because I AM open to it. My reasons for sending things are for information only, in order to begin to tease out what's true and what's not. It is not because I am jumping on a bandwagon and starting a revolution and because I'm a typical idiot American.That said, I do also have legitimate concerns whenever big $ is involved. So, please, tell me your concerns. And, are you sure you don't have a confirmation bias? Anyway, I am open to a conversation but please assume the best in me first, and then if there are missing pieces of info I will pick them up because that is my whole quest in life anyway. When have you ever known me to be 100% sure of any issue regarding [video subject matter]? Or most large internationally debated subjects? Anyway, I am requesting that you ask me what is the reason that I am sharing that information in the first place, and assume that I am a wise person rather than a typical idiot American.

Me: Whoops, didn't have time to edit - got interrupted in that last msg so I see there are repeated thoughts. Ah well. Trying to be concise but speed sometimes is more practical for me.

Him: This is a trap. I don't have time for this.

Me: [sad face emoji] OMG, I get you feel trapped, and I wish I could know more about that. And, I feel hurt, and misunderstood, and blamed. I have better things to do with my life than to sit here and try to concoct ways to trap you. I am desperately trying to move my life forward into one of more love and understanding, with EVERYONE, especially you. And I really DID want to hear your information about that doctor because I know that you have an insight into that that most people don't. I am heartbroken, and I feel that "I don't have time for this" is cruel. But duly noted.  [broken heart emoji].

I will get back to you in a few days after I have spoken with a therapist. 

Him: This is making me furious.

Him: Correction. I feel furious. You are not making me feel furious. If you will listen, I will share what it is I think you are continuously  missing and why I believe this is a trap.

Me: Please don't write to me about it unless you are willing to be open that you are misunderstanding me. If so, I am willing to hear why you are furious and where I might be misunderstanding you.

Him: This is a disaster.

Him: I can't reach you and I keep falling into the trap of thinking I can. You are 100% sure of stuff and the reason I can't reach you is because you think you're actually open and that I'm the one who is 100% sure.

Me: As an exercise, try reversing the roles and read through the text msgs and pretend you're me and I'm you. All I have asked is that you be open to the possibility that I have legitimate reasons to feel hurt. I expressed as you have always asked me to, how I "feel". I also said I am willing to be curious about why you feel it's a trap. This is new for me to request this in this way. So I am asking for you to reassure me that you are open to the possibility that I have legitimate reasons to feel hurt by the things you have written. I am open to the possibility that I am overreacting or misunderstanding something. I feel that is reasonable to ask in any relationship.

Him: Agggghhhhh! This is the trap. That you keep presenting yourself as "the reasonable one".

Him: I cannot cope. The only thing I can offer is to call and share what is going on with me. That may not be advisable. If that doesn't work for you, I need to stop messaging.

[note: I did not see the above text before I sent this next one]

Me: I am going to bring all of this to a therapist. Please point out to me where you see me as 100% sure. And then I don't want to have this conversation any longer unless you are willing to, as the man in my life who is supposed to hold the places where I am in pain and fear around this, to please give some verbage that you are open to the possibility that you might be misunderstanding me. That's all I have asked. And I don't find it unreasonable at all to ask that, as a reassurance. I have also said I am curious to hear how it's a trap for you, and yet you won't tell me unless I say it again so I am saying it again: I will listen to that. 

Me: Did not see your last message before I sent that.

Him: I feel trapped by what you are asking for because it relates to what I feel trapped about.

Me: I understand how you can feel that way and also the conundrum that you then feel. 

Me: So in this interaction I hear myself making a request of you that you reassure me of something. I don't see that coming back. Instead what I see you say of me is this:
"I can't reach you and I keep falling in to the trap of thinking I can. You are 100% sure of stuff and the reason I can't reach you is because you think you're actually open and that I'm the one who is 100% sure."

No "I interpret" statements, no "I feel" statements just, "this is the way you are" statements. On the back of me saying I feel misunderstood.
 
"You are 100% sure of stuff". On the back of me saying several times I was interested to hear your perspective. 

and...

"You think you are actually open..."

Where is the "I interpret" in that?  How would you feel if I wrote these things to you? You are stating your opinions that you feel are statements of fact about me. There is nothing I can say to someone who is convinced that I'm not open. It's crazy for me that I keep trying. I have done everything you have asked. I have used I feel statements. I have written that I am willing to look to see what I am missing. I have tried use asset-based approach. I have done it all! And it is still not enough.

Until I speak with a counselor about how I can break the cycle that I am in I don't want to continue this conversation. If you are feeling a tremendous amount of pain around it and you would like to share things I ask that you request of me if I'm in a space to hear. Because I know what it f***** feels like to be told that you can't share anymore. In the meantime, please let's keep our communications to logistical things, or loving things, via email and I ask that we keep our conversations with each other soft.

I won't be looking at my texts for the rest of the day.

**************************************

The end. If you made it this far, consider yourself hugged by me for the generosity of your time. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

In gratitude,
Mountain Lake

[Mountain Lake]

Hello community,

Thanks for reading this. I really need your help. Would you mind reading the following text message thread I had with my partner and let me know what you see here? I apologize in advance for its length...I felt if I edited it in any way, it would not be accurate.

We have had therapy in the past which was helpful to a point, and it backfired in other ways. (That is a whole other thread.) We have talked about breaking up, many times, including a few days earlier. This time, I had said I would speak with a therapist to help me have the strength to have that conversation. We are currently separated, and have very little contact for a few years now, because it always ends in a fight of some kind. I feel worn down, depressed and stuck, and he often tells me he feels hopeless.

A little bg: my partner is from another English speaking country (he lives here now) and I had just sent him a video (with no commentary from me) of a particular doctor's views on the pandemic, that a nurse friend had shared with me.

The following themes are not new to us, as I am sure you can imagine. Thanks in advance for your help. 

Okay, (deeeeep breathhhhhh)... here it is:

Him: I believe I understand where you are coming from, but I think you're engaging in a very dangerous slippery slope. Right now this country is caught in the midst of an era of disinformation. I see waaaay too many red flags with [this doctor's] work to give it any attention. One of the reasons that this kind of thinking is very dangerous is because it intersects with a deep culturization in the US around individual freedom. As a result, I see huge amounts of confirmation bias that lead people to get very riled up, to the point of issuing aggressive threats to coop board members and staff.

[note to readers: he is referring to another incident (not related to the video) where our local co-op, which we both wholeheartedly support, was admonished publicly by someone for requiring shoppers to wear masks.]

Him: Please, please, please step back and consider that you are very susceptible to trusting people who should not be trusted right now bc their agenda (and therein their identity) is, my opinion, disconnecting from their wisdom.

Me: That's why I only send this info to you and don't post it on FB, for that very reason. I am not in the camp of the people who are threatening the co-op board members.

Please, if you want me to consider a different viewpoint know that I am open to it when it comes to issues around [video subject matter], or any other big topic for that matter. For example, in this conversation I would prefer that you just share your viewpoint about the Dr, w/out assuming confirmation bias on my part. For example, I AM interested to know why you feel I have confirmation bias. Maybe I do, but your assumption that I do w/o us exploring what my motivation was for sending the video to you in the first place, is problematic for me. Because I AM open to it. My reasons for sending things are for information only, in order to begin to tease out what's true and what's not. It is not because I am jumping on a bandwagon and starting a revolution and because I'm a typical idiot American.That said, I do also have legitimate concerns whenever big $ is involved. So, please, tell me your concerns. And, are you sure you don't have a confirmation bias? Anyway, I am open to a conversation but please assume the best in me first, and then if there are missing pieces of info I will pick them up because that is my whole quest in life anyway. When have you ever known me to be 100% sure of any issue regarding [video subject matter]? Or most large internationally debated subjects? Anyway, I am requesting that you ask me what is the reason that I am sharing that information in the first place, and assume that I am a wise person rather than a typical idiot American.

Me: Whoops, didn't have time to edit - got interrupted in that last msg so I see there are repeated thoughts. Ah well. Trying to be concise but speed sometimes is more practical for me.

Him: This is a trap. I don't have time for this.

Me: [sad face emoji] OMG, I get you feel trapped, and I wish I could know more about that. And, I feel hurt, and misunderstood, and blamed. I have better things to do with my life than to sit here and try to concoct ways to trap you. I am desperately trying to move my life forward into one of more love and understanding, with EVERYONE, especially you. And I really DID want to hear your information about that doctor because I know that you have an insight into that that most people don't. I am heartbroken, and I feel that "I don't have time for this" is cruel. But duly noted.  [broken heart emoji].

I will get back to you in a few days after I have spoken with a therapist. 

Him: This is making me furious.

Him: Correction. I feel furious. You are not making me feel furious. If you will listen, I will share what it is I think you are continuously  missing and why I believe this is a trap.

Me: Please don't write to me about it unless you are willing to be open that you are misunderstanding me. If so, I am willing to hear why you are furious and where I might be misunderstanding you.

Him: This is a disaster.

Him: I can't reach you and I keep falling into the trap of thinking I can. You are 100% sure of stuff and the reason I can't reach you is because you think you're actually open and that I'm the one who is 100% sure.

Me: As an exercise, try reversing the roles and read through the text msgs and pretend you're me and I'm you. All I have asked is that you be open to the possibility that I have legitimate reasons to feel hurt. I expressed as you have always asked me to, how I "feel". I also said I am willing to be curious about why you feel it's a trap. This is new for me to request this in this way. So I am asking for you to reassure me that you are open to the possibility that I have legitimate reasons to feel hurt by the things you have written. I am open to the possibility that I am overreacting or misunderstanding something. I feel that is reasonable to ask in any relationship.

Him: Agggghhhhh! This is the trap. That you keep presenting yourself as "the reasonable one".

Him: I cannot cope. The only thing I can offer is to call and share what is going on with me. That may not be advisable. If that doesn't work for you, I need to stop messaging.

[note: I did not see the above text before I sent this next one]

Me: I am going to bring all of this to a therapist. Please point out to me where you see me as 100% sure. And then I don't want to have this conversation any longer unless you are willing to, as the man in my life who is supposed to hold the places where I am in pain and fear around this, to please give some verbage that you are open to the possibility that you might be misunderstanding me. That's all I have asked. And I don't find it unreasonable at all to ask that, as a reassurance. I have also said I am curious to hear how it's a trap for you, and yet you won't tell me unless I say it again so I am saying it again: I will listen to that. 

Me: Did not see your last message before I sent that.

Him: I feel trapped by what you are asking for because it relates to what I feel trapped about.

Me: I understand how you can feel that way and also the conundrum that you then feel. 

Me: So in this interaction I hear myself making a request of you that you reassure me of something. I don't see that coming back. Instead what I see you say of me is this:
"I can't reach you and I keep falling in to the trap of thinking I can. You are 100% sure of stuff and the reason I can't reach you is because you think you're actually open and that I'm the one who is 100% sure."

No "I interpret" statements, no "I feel" statements just, "this is the way you are" statements. On the back of me saying I feel misunderstood.
 
"You are 100% sure of stuff". On the back of me saying several times I was interested to hear your perspective. 

and...

"You think you are actually open..."

Where is the "I interpret" in that?  How would you feel if I wrote these things to you? You are stating your opinions that you feel are statements of fact about me. There is nothing I can say to someone who is convinced that I'm not open. It's crazy for me that I keep trying. I have done everything you have asked. I have used I feel statements. I have written that I am willing to look to see what I am missing. I have tried use asset-based approach. I have done it all! And it is still not enough.

Until I speak with a counselor about how I can break the cycle that I am in I don't want to continue this conversation. If you are feeling a tremendous amount of pain around it and you would like to share things I ask that you request of me if I'm in a space to hear. Because I know what it f***** feels like to be told that you can't share anymore. In the meantime, please let's keep our communications to logistical things, or loving things, via email and I ask that we keep our conversations with each other soft.

I won't be looking at my texts for the rest of the day.

**************************************

The end. If you made it this far, consider yourself hugged by me for the generosity of your time. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

In gratitude,
Mountain Lake

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Gemsforeyes]

Ohhhh my friend...

Difficult conversation during difficult days.   I read through this exchange several times to be sure I read it correctly.  I hope I did... and IF I did, then you may not like my response (sorry).

From what I see, the most important part is in his very first response.  Reading this carefully, he does give you validation at first, yet cautions you.  That’s okay.  But you must see that he is NOT “accusing” YOU of confirmation bias.  That phrase is not directed at you.  Please look at that more carefully and hopefully you’ll see that.  

I believe that in your taking that “confirmation bias” accusation personally, and how tightly you latched onto that in your response, he really did feel like it was a “trap” so to speak.  And I can see that.., I can see how he would, because that was NOT his intent at all...NOT to accuse you.

And after that, it appeared that all he wanted to do was clarify that for you; but you were possibly stuck on him accusing you of having confirmation bias and perhaps being an “idiot American”... so things went off the rails from there.  All hope was lost.  You don’t need a therapist to work through this exchange.  I believe the two of you just need to sloow down in your conversations.  Texting stinks!

Your thoughts?

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[Mountain Lake]

Hi Gemsforeyes,

Thank you, you ARE a gem for sure. Thank you so much for reading such a loong text - and! - RE-reading it. (OMG!)That was a lot of thoughtfulness to lend to a "stranger", and I really appreciate you for this. Also, I would have responded earlier but I had a bit of trouble relocating this post at first since I am new here, and once I did, I started to reply and then ran out of time. I have been worried that you may have thought you offended me by your answer when I didn't respond right away. Just in case there was any of that, please know that I feel your courage and your care. :O)

Okay, so you asked for my thoughts. Yes, I can see how my initial response was certainly coming from a place of pain, which I am sure made him feel misunderstood, or invisible, which is often his biggest pain. (From childhood, which we both have, so it just gets worse when we each inadvertently poke at that pain point.)

I purposely didn't want to give a whole lot of bg to our history, so that I could hear how it would sound to someone who didn't know either of us. From what I have been reading on these boards, it is reminding me of how often we (people) invalidate someone else so quickly, especially someone who is in pain, and we don't realize we are doing it. The better response from me would have probably been in this case, "Okay, thanks for the warning. Just checking, are you concerned that I have confirmation bias? Because if so, I'd like to hear more." Or something like that.

Here is where I feel raw, and am glad for the support here to remember what I am dealing with. He has told me, point blank, many times, that he "knows" I have confirmation bias when it comes to issues that he feels passionate about. (social justice for example.) As I am a person who has a life mission to dig into places where I, or the world, holds pain, in an effort to heal it/transform, it, there have been many conversations in the past where I have been grateful for his perspective because it has opened my eyes, especially to some of our cultural blind spots. And I have thanked him for this. Also, the irony is, that my mission in life is very much like is, in that I am in total alignment with him on helping to bring healing and understanding into the world, wherever there has been a social or personal injustice.

The catch is, he doesn't always remember that about me, especially when he is triggered. And, he has also in the past, assumed a bias or ignorance, or even prejudice on my part as well, and gets triggered from things in is own past, and then in the middle of nowhere, starts scolding me, or really talking to me like someone he disdains. (Not that he was doing this in that text.) And, to his credit, because he also is committed to being an agent of healing wherever he or the world holds pain, has been able to, on several occasions, go back and feel what he was feeling, and admit that he was projecting something onto me that didn't belong, and admitted that he felt like I was an "Idiot American". This has happened many times. And when he snaps out of it, he apologizes, and remembers that he is with me because he admires my wisdom and courage, and that I, of all the people he knows, is actually the most non-judgmental person he has ever met. (His words.)

-One case in point, was he was about to travel to a middle Eastern country on business last year, right after they had just had an uprising in the streets, near the hotel where he normally stays. (and this part of town was not usually dangerous, so this was a bit alarming.) This was big news at the time, about the social and political uprising that was happening. It was not violent, but the status quo was definitely being shaken up a bit, so there were people on both sides of the issue obviously who were at odds with each other in a pretty big way. I know from history, that those types of situations attract other violent groups to 'get in on the action', no matter what country it is happening in, so out of concern for his safety, I asked him if he had checked the international travel advisory. And he started getting pissed off. Not, as you would think, because he felt controlled or criticized, but rather, because he thought I was being 'prejudiced'. He did not admit that at first however, he just kept looking at me with scorn, and talking in anger about "people in the US", which, in that moment, he meant me. I tried everything in my power to stay with the moment and remain calm, but he got more and more ired and insulting, until I finally told him not to treat me this way, this isn't about me, and please go figure out what it is you need. He apologized the next day for it, admitting that he had made up a story about me, that I had assumed that this other country was automatically like the US and that bc they were "lesser" in my eyes (his projection of me) that they would therefore erupt in gun violence, and that I couldn't even conceive of another culture's way of having a peaceful protest. And we have had maaaannnny of these conversations/arguments, that go between fascinating and enlightening discussions of different cultures and a real learning, and him projecting on me that I am an arrogant, rigid, intolerant, selfish American that doesn't care how my actions affect others. So in those moments, (when he is projecting) he is no longer engaging with me per se, who is someone who has love and deep respect for other cultures and people, and who is committed to learning more about how I can grow.

So when he says, "please take a step back and consider that you are very susceptible to trusting people who should not be trusted right now", I came from a raw wound in me, that I "knew" where he was headed in his own fear, and just couldn't go there again. So in the past, we have made an agreement that he would ask me if I was interested in hearing his viewpoint, because when he is triggered around social issues (and he was bc of what had happened here locally to our co-op) he forgets that I am an ally.

ALL THIS TO SAY, I realize that I should have handled it differently, because he was trying to communicate something to me that he was worried about, and I should have remembered that this is his fear and pain, and I should have tried to not take it personally.

I have a few more interesting comments but need to jump on a call -- didn't want to wait any longer to reply to you Gemsforeyes.  Thank you again!