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Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse... Have you considered that being critical, judgmental, or invalidating toward the other parent, no matter what she or he just did will only make matters worse? Someone has to be do something. This means finding the motivation to stop making things worse, learning how to interrupt your own negative responses, body language, facial expressions, voice tone, and learning how to inhibit your urges to do things that you later realize are contributing to the tensions.
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Author Topic: A question for anyone with young children  (Read 408 times)
Harrisps

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« on: May 22, 2020, 11:38:13 AM »

Hello,

Just wondering what others would if you find yourself in this situation...

My wife is triggered massively by parents and most of the rest of my family in some ways.

It’s now having a noticeable impact and our daughter who’s 2 and a half.

The other day she told me she didn’t want to see nan and grandad as mummy doesn’t like that and she doesn’t want to
make mummy cry.

Tomorrow is my sisters birthday and I will be visiting her to drop present and then going for a walk with my mother

I would obviously love to take at least one of our children (we have 2, youngest is 5months) but I am concerned about the reaction afterwards and the intact on our daughter.

Has anyone been in a similar position?

Is there a good way to approach one of my needs whilst not invalidating my wife’s feelings?

Unfortunately my wife is very depressed atm and we are having crisis’s on a very frequent basis.

Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks.

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WantToBeFree
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« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2020, 10:24:03 PM »

Hi Harrisps,

I'm sorry you're stuck between this impossible "rock and hard place".  I am assuming this means your wife will not be going with you to see your sister and mom, and you're trying to figure out if you should go alone or take your oldest daughter with you?

While it is commendable to not want to invalidate your wife's feelings, I think we should always try to do what is best for our children and in this case it is to build and/or maintain a good relationship between them and other family members.  If your wife doesn't want to interact with them that is her choice and her right, but she shouldn't dictate who your children can see so long as they are not toxic or dangerous toward your children. 

It sounds like she can become triggered even when she doesn't see them, so either way she may have an issue, so you might as well let your daughter spend time with them.  As for your daughter not wanting to see them and upset her mom, perhaps try explaining to your daughter that mommy being upset is a grown-up issue that she doesn't have to solve and it's ok to see her nan and granddad. 

Growing up my mom was very paranoid and just didn't like certain people...there seemed to be no rhyme or reason why.  She had an issue with a LOT of my dad's family members despite them not doing anything to her and even being nice and inclusive even though they knew she didn't like them.  As a result, my dad nor I got to see his side of the family often because my mom would have a huge fit over it.  Eventually, we just began going without her, so it helped build a relationship with them but I still didn't see them a ton and I was a very shy kid so it was kind of a lost cause due to how little I saw them.  I was never as close to my paternal grandparents as I was my maternal ones. 

Good luck, I know this is a very tough spot to be in!
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livednlearned
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« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2020, 09:38:19 AM »

My wife is triggered massively by parents and most of the rest of my family in some ways.

This was exactly how things were with my ex when our son was young.

My parents lived 3000 miles and had to stay in a hotel when they visited because there was always drama. Never failed.

The other day she told me she didn’t want to see nan and grandad as mummy doesn’t like that and she doesn’t want to
make mummy cry.

How did you respond?

I am concerned about the reaction afterwards and the intact on our daughter.

It sounds like the very beginning of an estrangement campaign. It's not uncommon on these boards for a BPD sufferer to drive wedges into significant relationships. In your case, it's your whole family.

Is there a good way to approach one of my needs whilst not invalidating my wife’s feelings?

She probably feels that if you love your family, you won't be able to love her. There isn't enough to go around. And if you love your family and choose her, then she gets a small hit of reassurance. It's how she measures her worth, creating small tests like this. Your oldest child is probably being co-opted into this measuring system now.

I tend to feel that solving short term crises tends to create worse longer term ones. The key then is to create manageable short term solutions so that you don't end up in a long term permanent hell scape where you can't see your family, or your kids can't get to see their grandparents.

With my current BPD loved one (I graduated from a BPD brother to BPD ex husband to BPD step daughter  Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)) she creates these tests often for her dad. Even H and I turning in for the night sent her into a texting spasm with all manner of crises that seemed to originate out of thin air. You would think we left a toddler alone to fend for herself, except she was in her early 20s.

What helped was to have better boundaries, not looser ones. The looser the boundaries, the more she wanted. But what we added to the boundaries was a lot of validation throughout the day and especially at night. In your case, that might be before you go. Lots of family time drawing pictures for mommy, doing her nails, her hair, hanging out together with the baby, being light as a fairy, reminding her that you'll be out for an hour with sister/mom, can you get her anything. Maybe your oldest daughter brings something back for mom to show she was thinking of her, etc.

What are your thoughts about how that might work?
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ForeverDad
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« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2020, 12:10:52 PM »

This is black or white thinking, seldom any gray in between as with normal perceptions.  It is quite commonly reported here.  My then-spouse had increasing conflict with friends, congregation and family, especially my family.  By the time we separated I only knew of three friends she had left, all either illegal or had difficulty with English, so I concluded she felt she had control with them too.

My observation is that if this isn't addressed it will get worse over time.  However, it may get worse no matter what you do.  That was what I faced and in time I realized my marriage was being sabotaged even though she couldn't admit it.  Finding fault, blaming and blame shifting.
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GaGrl
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« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2020, 02:58:25 PM »

Are you and your wife in marriage counseling or family therapy? This is exactly the kind of family dynamic being created that can be improved when addressed early. In fact, some play therapy for your daughter might provide some insight to the pressure she obviously is feeling.
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"...what's past is prologue; what to come,
In yours and my discharge."
Harrisps

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« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2020, 02:58:20 PM »

Hello everyone and thank you for you replies...

I wasn’t sure if I was going to be able to push for what I knew was reasonable but my wife angrily to told me to take both kids. I wasn’t happy with the way our daughter was being confused and managed to persuade my wife to sit down and explain a few things. I think it helped.

I received very little support with childcare for the rest of that day and was pushed and prodded but managed to come off relatively unscathed... she went to bed giving me the cold shoulder and then all is forgotten wanting to have sex half an hour later!

Sorry a llittle weird writing that on a message board but I’m sure everyone will have similar experience. The pendulum doesn’t half swing with BPD.

I feel i now need to continue setting boundaries and not expecting it to be easy or even comfortable but necessary if we’ve any chance of making it through.
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livednlearned
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« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2020, 08:11:36 AM »

I feel i now need to continue setting boundaries and not expecting it to be easy or even comfortable but necessary if we’ve any chance of making it through.

You did a great job. Honestly, that was master class level  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

I think deep down pwBPD want and need boundaries. And I mean very deep down, not necessarily something that she's likely to say to you, much less admit to herself. If she can roll over your boundaries, then she's in charge, and she knows that her emotions will run the show and probably create chaos not just for her but for everyone. Someone who can set reasonable limits helps to hem in her worst impulses, keeping others safe from her, even if she throws a fit (often to check how secure the limit is).

Marsha Linehan (diagnosed with BPD) and the founder of dialectical behavior therapy talks about the need for acceptance AND change for someone who has challenges with emotional regulation. A lot of the skills we try to apply are about communicating a blend of acceptance/change. Which is not easy! Many of the skills are not intuitive and must be learned.

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ForeverDad
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« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2020, 01:38:24 PM »

Reminds me of Dr Doolittle's pushme-pullyou.  BPD behaviors can alternate between two extremes.  Perhaps the reasons are a bit different between individuals, could be a combination of an assortment of issues.  A need to feel in control?  A need to keep you off balance and reactive rather than proactive?  Her way of dealing with her inner distress?

She wanted you to care for the kids all day.  Rather than hang around her, did you try taking the kids outside where they could be kids and let her reset?  Might help, but of course that is not a fix and may not always work.  Remember to think of the kids' welfare, your spouse is a concern but she's an adult after all, the kids aren't.
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Harrisps

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« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2020, 06:44:03 AM »

Thanks again really appreciating the support here. Giving her time to reset has worked and sometimes still does it’s just so out control atm that there’s never another crisis far away.

I positive I’m only a couple of good sleeps and a happier family day from feeling much better but they are so few and far between atm exhaustion and the emotional impact I can see happening to us all makes most days very difficult to deal with.


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Ser Jorah Mormon
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« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2020, 11:05:44 AM »

Hey Harrisps,

I've been divorced from my BPD ex for nine years now.  Just like you, I was steadfastly resolved to be gentlemanly and attempt the most just and equitable course of action that would appease everyone.

You stated that you're wife confused your daughter and you managed to get your wife too speak with your daughter. What did she say?

I truly understand the unenviable position your in.  Forgive me for being a bit curt and blunt.  Emotional blackmail of a toddler is so aggregiously hurtful and void of anything even remotely motherly, I don't have a superlative or phrase too aptly describe such a sinister course of action.  When I was still in the marriage, I desperately wanted to stay together with my wife even after being subjected too unspeakable abuse.

My Ex never used my son as leverage in any way.  When your wife made a decision to vilify nan, or any other member of your family that's her choice.  Unless your family wronged your wife in a very severe manner, that sort of behavior is unacceptable and a deal breaker.  One of the most profound things I learned about Cluster B's in general is how masterful they are at creating lose/lose situations.  I have no idea were you stand as far as preserving the marriage, or rather if like me not losing her became paramount over all things even though I knew that it was all wrong.

I couldn't fathom that I was subjected too a love bombing campaign.  I was certain that I could retrieve the woman from the beginning of the relationship.  She was masterful at serruptiosly extracting all my vunrebilities and equally masterful at exploiting them. You stated that another crisis is just around the corner, that's an absolute certainty.  It usually culminates in alleged suicide attempts, particularly if she senses you will leave the marriage.  This is the lowest form of manipulation. I nursed my Ex though five suicide attempts, they're usually cry for help or blatant manipulation.

I feel that she is attempting too cut out all your family and friends from your life, that's what abuser's do.  If your only reality is a world of her crafting after a while one just accepts it as reality.  Friends and family are a voice of reason, and an alternate too the abuse and mistreatment.

I'd like to say that if my Ex caused my toddler child that much consternation, that I would issue an ultimatum. It seems harsh, but I would tell her tormenting your daughter over visitation with your family is an absolute deal breaker. I would make it perfectly clear that your daughter will have a relationship with your family, and your wife needs to cease and dissist with any and all instilling guilt into your daughter.  I would calmly state that's something you will not abide. 

If you're in a place where the thought of ending the marriage is something you won't do, just think about your daughter. I would also humbly suggest that you create a journal of these behaviors.

If I'm coming across as crass and heartless, I sincerely apologize. I feel that you must draw a line in the sand. If you decide to confront her, I would refrain from civility. She needs to understand that you won't see your daughter crippled emotionally.

I rationalized a torrent of abuse, mainly by convincing myself that she was utilizing defense mechanisms.  Four years after my divorce, I read a book called Character Disturbance a Phenomenon of our age, by Dr. George K Simon.

Most folks with Borderline spouse's have never heard of this text, as it's not specific to Borderline.  I strongly recommend that you read it.  The synopsis is people with disturbed character all seem too have the same playbook of manipulation.  Dr. Simon has a different point of view from therapists steeped in traditional Freudian school of thought.  In my humble opinion Dr. Simon's conclusions are unassailable.  If you read this text, I all but guarantee that you will have a considerably more sound grasp on your situation and more importantly you'll be given a tool box too affectivity combat the crazy making, manipulative techniques that borderlines utilize.

If I were to give you one singular piece of advise, never let how your wife may react cloud your judgment.

I Hope that this narrative is received in the loving manner that it was intended.

If you would like to talk further, I'd be happy to chronicle everything my ex did.

You seem like an exceptionally good man, I explore you not to allow that goodness to be exploited.  Unfortunately some people will interpret those admirable qualities.

I wish you and your family every happiness. I sincerely hope that your entire family find's a true happiness.


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AND-01

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« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2020, 07:53:58 AM »

Hi Harrisps,

sorry to hear what you are going through and I thought that I would echo Ser Jorah Mormon's point as per below:


I truly understand the unenviable position your in.  Forgive me for being a bit curt and blunt.  Emotional blackmail of a toddler is so aggregiously hurtful and void of anything even remotely motherly, I don't have a superlative or phrase too aptly describe such a sinister course of action.  When I was still in the marriage, I desperately wanted to stay together with my wife even after being subjected too unspeakable abuse.

*

My children are a few years older and, working with counsellors and therapy, we are just starting to unwind all the damage caused by BPD behaviour. They believed they were the cause of their mother being sad but they kept it quiet until it started spilling out.

I had been isolated by my wife but I hadn't realised that she had done the same to them. My son stopped talking to his nanny and my wife's aunt because of this and they had been so close before.

The actions you face are controlling and could lead to stunted development of emotions as well as long term mental health issues - what happens when your daughter grows up and realises what she did to her grandparents? There are no winners in these situations.

* that book recommendation sounds good
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livednlearned
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« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2020, 08:39:35 AM »

In Sheep's Clothing: Understanding and Dealing with Manipulative People is another helpful book, also written by George Simon. He describes what he calls covert aggression as a trait of character-disordered individuals. Whether or not there are two types of people (his theory is that there are neurotic people and then there are character-disordered people), in the moment you are dealing with covert aggression it's mostly irrelevant because the goal is to avoid being manipulated.

I found the techniques in his books to be really effective in helping me neutralize the aggressions of a step daughter who has BPD traits. Combined with other skills I've picked up along the way, I no longer discover boot prints on the back of my head whenever she comes over.

His basic premise is that character-disordered people are hell-bent on win-lose (first preference) or lose-lose (second preference) interactions and are determined to avoid at all costs a lose-win situation where you or someone else has the advantage. Simon suggests that win-win situations are the best but in my experience those are not easy to create. More often I find myself using his techniques to defang a set up, or to figure out how to create a win-lose in my favor that is the least threatening to her. She seems to be perplexed that I can neutralize aggressive behavior and remind friendly in my demeanor.

For what it's worth, I don't think covert aggression is sophisticated. Once you recognize what it is and how it works and then develop the skills to counter, the types of manipulations we deal with begin to look childlike and primitive.
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« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2020, 09:47:57 AM »

Well done

I have lived these dynamics many times. It is a tricky balance to know when to press (at risk of a blowup) or acquiesce  to keep peace. 

You lived it and came out in a good place. But be assured you will get plenty more practice in the future

I like SET.   (It’s simple for me to remember)

Offer Support to her
Empathize with her emotions
State your truth

Once you go through this exercise a few times you will develop a better sense of what lines you want to draw for your own values.

Letting go of friends and family is a big one.  I let a lot go.  Maybe too much. Now that divorce is in process the kids are being slowly reintroduced to my family.  Friends will be next once lockdown is lifted.   For sure it would have been better not to have lost so much contact along the way.

Well done.
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yeeter
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« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2020, 12:24:17 PM »

Another theme I like with the kids.  That you dont get to 'pick and choose' your family.  They are just your family.

I am your father and I will always be your father and will always love you.

This is your nana and will always be your nana and will always love you.

And... that sometimes we can be angry and upset with our family.  Those things happen and will work out over time.  But that doesnt change the fact they are still your family.

I like these lines of thinking because it means the child doesnt have to choose.  There is no choice.  It is just a fact.
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