Having to choose between lying, or telling the truth and risking conflict

[Depression = 72% of members]

Someone posted about this in the recent past, but I was unsuccessful in finding the thread to add to that conversation, so I've started a new one.

I have a values problem.  I believe in honesty, integrity and truth.  I also believe in safety.  But I'm entering a situation where uBPD mom is going to ask me for some information.  If I tell her the truth, there's an extremely high likelihood it will result in negative and nasty words from her and escalate into a whole drama.  She's already under stress because her long-term bf is moving 1000 miles away, and a best friend has just been told she has 3 months to live.  Just thinking about it all makes me feel anxious and scared.  But I can tell her a simple little lie, which is 100% believable and fits with the situation, and absolutely nobody gets hurt.  Do I tell the truth and risk her completely dysregulating, or do I tell a little lie, and save us all the trouble, and keep myself feeling safe.  This is my values problem.

Truth, or lie?  Anybody?

[Methuen]

Someone posted about this in the recent past, but I was unsuccessful in finding the thread to add to that conversation, so I've started a new one.

I have a values problem.  I believe in honesty, integrity and truth.  I also believe in safety.  But I'm entering a situation where uBPD mom is going to ask me for some information.  If I tell her the truth, there's an extremely high likelihood it will result in negative and nasty words from her and escalate into a whole drama.  She's already under stress because her long-term bf is moving 1000 miles away, and a best friend has just been told she has 3 months to live.  Just thinking about it all makes me feel anxious and scared.  But I can tell her a simple little lie, which is 100% believable and fits with the situation, and absolutely nobody gets hurt.  Do I tell the truth and risk her completely dysregulating, or do I tell a little lie, and save us all the trouble, and keep myself feeling safe.  This is my values problem.

Truth, or lie?  Anybody?

[GaGrl]

Choose your battles, methuen.

In the long term, how critical and important is this to your life? To your mother's life?

Is this a problem one-and-done? Or the beginning of a slippery slope?

[Harri]

Hi there.  It is hard to respond here without more detail but I won't let that stop me.

I gave up a lot in the name of picking my battles.  I lost a huge parts of me by doing things in the name of peace.  I gave away pieces of myself, tiny piece after tiny piece, until I was barely there.  Then I swung the other way and said what I had to say because it was "my truth" and I was tired of being beaten down... and I lost even more little bits of me.

Can you share more with us?

[Notwendy]

It can feel like a losing battle either way.

I prefer relaying as little personal information as possible. I think we feel a sense of obligation to let our mothers into our personal lives, but we don't have to if we choose not to.

I understand the decision to tell a small lie, but that usually results in me feeling badly about myself as it compromises my values. Yet, I have done it when I don't feel up to dealing with her having a rage over something.

Other times, I just tell her and let the situation be what it is. She's had a big fit, made threats- and then, a few weeks later, when she's over it, acts as if nothing happened.

Many of her reactions are in the moment, albeit they are not easy to deal with in the moment.

For large things- I do tell her. Things like if we were moving, or someone started a new job, or a child graduating. I think these are important to share. Also, she would find them out eventually and feel really hurt that she wasn't told about it- I don't wish to do something hurtful.

Other things like personal decisions, taking a trip for the weekend, or all the things my children do. These are personal things. When I do share them, she then constantly questions me about them, calls up all her friends to "share" personal information. She doesn't keep confidences. I just don't wish to get into these discussions with her.

[Choosinghope]

This is hard for me too. I've adopted the habit of lying to my mom years ago to avoid conflict. In my mind, it's not so much blatant lying but shifting facts around to make her happy. If I'm telling a story, I might leave out or substitute key details to avoid problems. When talking to her, I gauge her reaction and adjust the conversation accordingly, even if I have to change or shift what I was going to say.

 I also have a very strong value system and hate lying to anyone else. With her though, it has always just been a coping strategy. Then when she recently accused me of being deceitful and not being trustworthy, it hit hard, because with her I am in some ways. I don't know what the right answer is. With my pwBPD, I'm tending to lean more towards safety, but I think that you're a little further down your healing path than I am. I guess just weigh the consequences of either path: your conscience or the fallout. Which would you rather deal with in a year?

[madeline7]

This no win situation is at the core of why I believe my "relationship" with my uBPD is not authentic. And I am less tolerant at this point in my life to spend time (feels like a waste of time) in being disingenuous. I find myself sharing less information to avoid a rage or silent treatment. It is the lesser of the 2 evils for me. But it is never easy.

[Notwendy]

my "relationship" with my uBPD is not authentic

It's a challenge to be authentic. I try to the best I can ( and don't always achieve it) because it helps my self esteem to know I am being authentic.

However, my BPD mother is not authentic. She is a habitual liar. She lies to me frequently- to the point where I don't know if she's telling the truth or not. She lies so to "keep me in the dark" and this helps her maintain a sense of control. If I am vulnerable or open up to her, I feel exploited.

But my wishing to try to be authentic is about me, not her. Still, a close relationship with her isn't possible in our situation. When I do share something with her, it's similar to something I would share with an aquaintance. Basically news. "Child's soccer team won their game today" types of conversations.

[zachira]

There is no right or wrong answer here. It just plain hurts and feels terrible to have to hide who we are from our mother who is the person that is supposed to love us unconditionally. I think we can be authentic with those who want to see us, and sometimes we can just throw caution to the wind with those who will respond badly to the truth, because we are tired of the cover up.
Methuen,
I am wondering if you can find a way to tell your mother the truth if you decide to do so, in a way that you will not be all that affected by how she reacts and still feel safe. I think you are getting to the point where what your mother does no longer surprises you, it just still hurts to be badly treated by her. If you decide not to tell her, can you remind yourself that your mother created and maintains the inauthentic relationship you have with her? Whatever you decide, you do not have to adopt your mother's feelings of being inauthentic as you have become an honest authentic person in your own right, part of which is keeping yourself safe when you need to.

[GaGrl]

As I child and teen, I learned that my privacy and private thoughts were not safe with my mother. She had no boundaries around going into my room and items. Sharing private thoughts often resulted in being invalidated. She herself had been given no privacy or validation by her PD step-mother. I had to establish my own boundaries, and she had to learn to respect them. Even so, the consequence of all these years of holding to boundaries is that my mom and I do not have the emotionally close relationship that I would have preferred. She lives with me now, and I still maintain a lower level of intimacy that protects me.

I try not to lie to my mother. I definitely do not tell her a great deal of personal info.

[Notwendy]

I had no privacy either. My mom snooped through my things and she still does. We have to lock things up when she's at my house- like bank statements or tax info- she will go through them.

We know when we have visited, she looks through our suitcases.

It doesn't feel natural to not be able to talk to my mother frankly, but it is what it is.

[Harri]

I think a lot of us never learned the difference between telling the truth, sharing what is appropriate and safe and keeping things that are private private.  I know I never did and it was only reading on this site that I learned there are differences.  Our retired Mod Livednlearned is the one who taught me that.  Well, not me specifically but from reading her posts. 

We share with people who are safe.  We share private things with people who are safe.  My mother, hell my brother and father were not safe along with others who would report back to my mom.  Is it lying to not share private and personal info with people who can't be trusted?

I am not sure how all of this fits with Methuens situation in this thread but I do think there is room to no answer something with 100% honesty and still uphold our values and keep us safe. 

As for not having privacy, my mom used to follow me in the bathroom,.  She searched through my garbage.  I get it.  She called the places I worked and talked with my bosses about me, warning them about me.   I get not being able to be authentic with our parent.  Like Notwendy said, it is what it is. 

Feel the pain and do what is within your values while keeping yourself safe.  Remember, we may have a distorted idea of what being honest vs lying is.

[Mata]

Methuen - I've been in a similar situation several times with my mom.  I don't have a good answer for you.  I do think that sometimes keeping ourselves safe requires a compromise of other values (like telling the truth).  It's uncomfortable but necessary.  The tricky part for me is figuring out if I'm keeping something from my mom in order to protect myself, or if I'm really doing it to protect her feelings.  

I know I'm still emotionally enmeshed with my mom in many ways, so my instinctive reaction is to shelter her from bad news, so that she won't have to feel upset/sad/whatever.  I lean towards this especially when she has other 'bad' stuff going on.  In some ways, sheltering her from bad news does also protect me,  but I think there is a distinction between telling a lie for my safety and lying to keep her happy.  Not sure if that makes sense, or resonates with your issue.  

I've also come to accept recently that my values may not always line up with my relationship with my mom.  Due to the boundaries I need to have with her, there are some things I cannot do for her, that otherwise my values would lead me to do for a different person.  (i.e., I would let my best friend live with me, but never my mom.)  I think honesty and truth are the same.  Where I would never lie in a different situation, I may need to be less than honest with my mom, and that's okay.  

[Methuen]

Everyone:  thank-you for your thoughtful and caring responses.  I found a gold nugget in each of your replies, and I am taking some time to process all this and work out a plan.  I'm so appreciative to hear from you.  You've given me lots to think about.  Thanks for being so helpful.

[IvyB]

For my uBPD mom, I've definitely told her less over the years and have done a lot of "I don't remember" or "I don't know" or "I need to think about it", usually she forgets and it doesn't come up again. Our conversations are mostly her talking and me carefully interjecting and replying a lot with little lies when I don't want to share. It's not ideal, but saves my sanity.

[formflier]

Isn't there an option where you can tell the truth and keep the information private to yourself?

Said another way, why not decline to answer when asked.  (certainly there can be a number of ways to do this).

I too find it hard to answer without details.  On the face of it...don't lie.   (of course "it depends" on if it is a white lie, lie of omission, etc etc

I like to say "be authentic".  Stop worrying about details of a technical lie (or not) and give an authentic answer.

"Gosh Mom..that's a touchy subject.  I'm going to take some time to think about my answer."

pause

"Now...would you like tea or coffee ..."  (and don't go back)

Best,

FF

[Methuen]

FF:  so I confronted my demon today, bit the bullet, and as I was standing by the front door of mom's house (exit strategy) after dropping off her groceries (and helping her with a few other tasks), I used your suggestion (made a general statement without giving detail).  She of course responded exactly as I predicted she would.  I actually hate how well I know her.  It is disruptive and enables my anxiety.  Anyways, I used general language to skirt around her question, changed the subject, chatted a bit longer, and made my exit from the front door.  So I told the truth (without the info I know she would want - but which isn't her business), and I avoided lying. She thinks my business is her business right?  Then she has the info she needs to criticize or rail on me.  Anyways, then I got home, alerted my adult children before she could accost them with the info she wants, and I also still have to alert another family member whom I KNOW she is going to question.  Thankfully they are familiar with her issues and will be OK with keeping the details private.  I hate having to put out fires before they even start.  It takes so much energy, and time.  But I am holding my boundary, and finding a way to do so without sacrificing my values.  I am so happy for all the people in this world who don't have a pwBPD and who don't have to deal with this stuff.  

[Notwendy]

Good for you!

It is emotionally tiring to deal with a person like that. I hope you feel a sense of accomplishment by holding on to your truth- no matter how she reacts.

You did great! Remember it takes some practice to change how we relate and react, but it gets better!

[zachira]

I love how you responded to your mother while maintaining your integrity and healthy emotional boundaries.

[yeeter]

 

Well done. 

A very tricky situation.  And the great news is you have learned something that worked well, at least this time.

You will get better at it, because you know you will get lots of practice in the future.  But having success even once trains you to believe it is possible, which hopefully reduces some of the anxiety of it next time.  Which makes it go better.  Which reduces anxiety for the time after.  Which makes it go better...

Anxiety is somewhat a learned response.  You have to unlearn it.  The best way is to have experiences that are not negative.

 

[formflier]

FF is standing and clapping for you.

How do you "feel" about this incident/conversation...?

How does this compare to things like this in the past?

Is there anything you wish you would have done differently this time?

Very proud of you!

Best,

FF

[mstnghu]

This is definitely a topic that interests me. I've always been the type of person who's an open book. I'm much more likely to give out too much information about myself and regret it later. Being with my wife all these years has caused me to be very hesitant to be truthful or open with her. Every single time I've opened up to her or been vulnerable, she's used it against me.
I hate feeling like I'm living a lie a lot of the time, but when I am truthful with her it just causes fights between us. Our loved ones should be the people we are most comfortable to be ourselves around. I can't be myself at all around my wife. I often times don't even like to tell her about my day at work because somehow and some way she will find something I supposedly did wrong that I need to rectify or apologize for! It's seriously unreal. Sometimes the most insignificant or mundane part of my day that has absolutely no impact on her life can be turned into some huge ordeal that causes a major fight between us. I'm getting better about not actually lying, but withholding information from her and setting healthy boundaries. It's mentally and emotionally draining to be with somebody like that.

Here are some random things my wife will get mad about, which is why I feel I can almost never feel comfortable around her:

-getting a haircut
-running errands on my lunch break
-needing to buy groceries for the house, so buying lunch while at work every once in awhile
-calling/texting any of my friends, family members or even coworkers when I'm not around her
-going to the gym on my lunch break
-meeting anybody new, guy or girl
-commenting on anybody's social media page, guy or girl

The list is endless. I could continue. She finds a way to be set off by almost anything.

[Harri]

She finds a way to be set off by almost anything.

So change things up, like methuen did, and do what is within your value system.   Though it is not about winning, that is the best option when in a lose lose situation.   

[zachira]

Harri,
"So change things up, like methuen did, and do what is within your value system.   Though it is not about winning, that is the best option when in a lose lose situation."  
This piece of advice is a gem. Thanks Harri. We have to give up trying to win with the disordered people in our lives, and doing what works the best, even though it is far from ideal, and still hurts to be in a relationship in which the giving is so one sided.

[Methuen]

my "relationship" with my uBPD is not authentic
She is a habitual liar. She lies to me frequently- to the point where I don't know if she's telling the truth or not.

This describes my mom perfectly.  Sadly, H and I just can't take anything she says anymore at face value.  She just tells us what she wants us to hear.  And then that becomes a fact for her.

It just plain hurts and feels terrible to have to hide who we are from our mother...

 Oh yes.

Isn't there an option where you can tell the truth and keep the information private to yourself?...I too find it hard to answer without details.  On the face of it...don't lie...

This gave me pause for thought, and combined with everyone else's comments, really pointed me in the direction I needed.  So simple, and so effective.  Why couldn't I think of that?

Anxiety is somewhat a learned response.  You have to unlearn it.  

I felt heartened by your post yeeter.  And thanks for the reminder that success breeds more success.  How long did it take you to "unlearn anxiety"?  I am curious about your experience with this.  I think a lot of us would like to believe we can overcome the anxiety our pwBPD brings to our life.  My goodness that would be amazing.

FF is standing and clapping for you.

Thanks FF!

How does this compare to things like this in the past? Well I handled this a lot better than I've handled similar situations before I knew about BPD and before I began learning coping strategies.  Altogether, I felt good afterwards about how I handled it, but what she said still really irritated me afterwards.  But I didn't engage, and it didn't escalate, so I sidestepped the drama.  It's not over yet though, there's another encounter coming when family comes to visit with her here at our house, so I have to "be on point" yet again.  What I'm lacking is confidence that I can do this, which was part of the point yeeter was making.  If I can keep this success up, the confidence will come.

Is there anything you wish you would have done differently this time?  She said something that she had "no business" saying because it's "not her business".  It really irritated me afterwards, but I didn't respond to it at the time, because I was afraid it could escalate.  I chose to ignore, so I didn't set a boundary, and maybe I should have, but I was afraid it was too risky.

I'm nervous for the part that still lies ahead of me before this is all over (out of town family arrives in 10 days, and that is when uBPD mom could really bring a dark cloud over an otherwise joyful occasion), but somewhat more confident and perhaps slightly less anxious (a nod to mstngu) than I would have been a year ago. I really want to be able to do this.