Tips on how to say No

[Medic1]

I got married a couple of years after school and have been married for 13 years now - this has been my one and only relationship. This is the first time I've reached out or asked for help. To be honest all I'm looking for is support and regular discussion with people going through a similar situation..

I'm actually a doc and have worked with patients with BPD but never quite noticed the same traits in my wife. I'm a kind a caring person and so when there is a crisis I step in and help (it's my personality and pretty much why I became a doc). Recently I've realised I do this in my relationship and it has been eating away at my self confidence and friendship circle for a long time. I prioritise my family and help with the crisis there at the expense of friendships/work/career/family. There's a 4yr old in the picture as well - and the last thing I ever want is for her to pick up the same behaviour patterns. I've seen the damage and potential this can cause in adults.

My wife has no formal diagnosis - in fact she functions well, is beyond intelligent but finds social interactions difficult. But unpredictable mood swings of anger, an inability to cope with change and an always pessimistic outlook have made me look closer. I can never fully predict how she will react to something. I thought to begin with it was a monthly cycle of stress, but it follows no pattern I can find. For example I might put a clothes wash on - but if it is not exactly the right kind of wash (on the right day/the right amount/the clothes she was expecting to get washed) it can kick off an anger explosion rather than a "thank-you". Also, because of my nature I tend to do a lot of things for her. If she has had a tough day at work (when I have also had a tough day at work) I will always take up the slack. I'll do the nursery pick up, cook dinner, ensure the 4yr old doesn't stress her out by playing with them lots and keeping them away from her.

I see exactly the same pattern in a lot of the posts on here: - Loving spouse identifies anger/dependency issues, tries to cope (in general it looks like those who live with DPD partners are un-endingly tolerant people who always want to please, and so cope with these situations really well to begin with). They use up all their mental and physical resources and then become run down from coping all the time. Then they think "it's probably me that's the problem" and eventually come here for help.

Anyway, if there are men in a similar situation I'd love to hear from you. I know it's a long road ahead and partly I have a lot of work to do, but it would be nice to keep in touch with someone going through a similar situation.

And lastly a question if anyone has read this far and feels like answering: how did you begin saying no to your BPD partner?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Arizona]

Hello Medic1

From one doc to another I can tell you that we are living very similar experiences. We come into helping fields to HELP. This blinds us to what might be more obvious to others. WE CANNOT FIX OUR PARTNER. I'm saying it in capital letters because thats how I have to say it to myself over and over again. 

Your description of "unpredictable mood swings of anger, an inability to cope with change and an always pessimistic outlook" ...  describes my partner to the T. I can't tell you how many times I overcompensate by being the "strong" "happy" "optimistic" etc person in the family...especially to compensate and make life lighter for the kids.

"I can never fully predict how she will react to something." - Reality is that yes we can. They are predictably unpredictable, we just have to come to accept this. Its one of the hardest things I've had to come to terms with.

"For example I might put a clothes wash on - but if it is not exactly the right kind of wash (on the right day/the right amount/the clothes she was expecting to get washed) it can kick off an anger explosion..." - same over here... So many conditions, hoops, etc. I call them his "decision trees" for what he finds important.

How do you say no as a caring person with a professional degree in caring/caretaking? By saying no through your actions. Learn to see "no" (in words and actions) as an expression of true and balanced caring for her, you, and your child. By saying no we stop the enabling...and more importantly stop any messages our enabling might give our kids that the BPD's bx is okay. 

I have recently posted that I have identified myself as a "compulsive communicator" because I want to talk it out, arrive at insights and solutions...yada yada yada. I'm practicing to sit with my discomfort of not talking and recently of saying no as well. It was soo uncomfortable but I kept reminding myself that there is growth in discomfort.

Keep coming back to this forum for support. Its been helpful for me to keep hearing words of encouragement and validation. You can also be transparent with your partner to ease your discomfort and maybe say - EXAMPLE "this is difficult for me but I have to say no, you can certainly do it this way for yourself but I'm going to approach it differently for myself." Don't expect for her to agree or be ok with it. She doesn't have to be happy about it and you don't need her permission.

This book has helped me a lot: Stop care taking the borderline / narcissist by Margalis Fjelstad.

You can do this! 

[Medic1]

Thanks arizona,

I certainly didn't expect to hear from someone in an almost identical position - but then I guess that's why this forum is here!

Learning to say no does look like a long road, and I'm sure there will be some discomfort along the way - but as you say that brings growth.

I guess there must be more than a few members on here whose tendency is to try and "fix things" and that's probably what drew them to their partner in the first place. Someone who needs lots of validation and support + someone who loves giving validation and support = perfect match. It just takes some realisation on both sides to acknowledge this and make sure it doesn't take the relationship in a downward spiral.

Overcompensators unite!

[slick707]

Hi Medic1,

Also a doctor and looking to improve on how to say no. As doctors, we not only have it in our disposition to help, but are trained to help and deal with conflict head on. And ontop of that (!), when we want to help, we explain the background (diagnosis, disease process, treatments and consequences of each treatment or no treatment). So, if we explain ourselves enough, the results, and still try to help amidst the personal conflict, it must work, right? Not necessarily because then we wouldn't be reaching out in the forum.

I'm new to this forum and processing journey, but figured I'd share two things that have helped me:
1. Saying no is NOT a discussion, but rather actions. *insert cliche about "talk is cheap", actions speak louder than words...blah blah blah* But physical evidence of "no" is hard to argue with literally because you can't argue with an action. Someone can only react (verbal, physical, etc), and in turn cause another action.

2. Family guide to BPD/Stop walking on eggshells workbook. As natural "Do-er's" and liking evidence of progress, I picked up this PDF workbook up online for FREE (because our student debt amount is laughably horrendous). This has helped me process in digestible pieces how I tend to react, elucidating subtypes of BPD, and methods of coping and maintaining boundaries.

Anyway, looking forward to sharing the journey with you and other users! Is there any specific goal of saying "no" that you would like to have (ie maintain boundaries, feel less guilty, etc)?

[Arizona]

Hello Medic1 and Slick707

Yes we’re definitely hardwired to be on it and fix it. It’s good to feel understood and not-alone. My brain struggles a lot  to comprehend that I’m ineffective in fixing this. It goes against years of training and practice.

This forum is very helpful to keep us out of Dr mode.

Medic1 - you’re not alone, keep coming back!

Slick707 - thank you for the PDF recommendation, you’re not alone on the ridiculous student loan situation!

[TRB]

Hi Medic1,

Your description sounds very much like my own.  I am a man in a long term (nearly 25 year) relationship with a woman who I strongly believe has undiagnosed BPD.  We are both lawyers.  We met while still in law school and she was my first serious relationship (a few short-term girlfriends before her, but nothing very serious).  She is extremely intelligent and competent.  From speaking with professionals I suspect she might not qualify for a diagnosis of BPD, mostly because she can hold her career together, but when I first read about BPD I checked off 9 of the 10 boxes for her!

Your description of your own traits resonates strongly with me.  I am a "helper," which I thought of as a positive for most of my life.  When my partner needs something, I jump in.  It's how my dad is with my mom.

But there is an extreme version of "helper," which I have heard called "people pleasing," among other things.  Taken to an extreme it is a very unhealthy way of being.  It definitely applies to me.

There are a lot of great books about this, but since you are a man and asked about the male experience, I strongly suggest "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Robert Glover.  He is a therapist and also a "recovering nice guy."  He had a personal crisis in which he confronted why his relationships with women hadn't worked, and he came up with the "nice guy syndrome" to explain it.  His writing style can be very blunt and it rubs some people the wrong way, but I found it extremely useful.  Be prepared to confront some very unpleasant truths about yourself when reading the book.  He does not pull any punches about how being "nice" is not so nice, and is not healthy for the "nice guy" or the people he is in relationships with.

You asked about how to start saying "no."  Glover talks a lot about that.  I won't try to repeat it here, but he describes how hard it is for nice guys to say "no," especially to the women in their lives.  He also prepares you for the blowback you will face when you start to say "no."  He is also very blunt about the fact that once you start on this path with someone--say your wife--you need to be prepared for the relationship to either transform in a positive direction or to end completely.  Saying "no" is just one example of setting boundaries, which is covered extensively on these message boards because it is a recurring challenge when you are in a relationship with someone with BPD.

In my own case, I only started saying "no" and setting other boundaries with my partner about 5 years ago--after we had been together for about 20 years.  It is hard for me to believe that when I say it, but my "people pleasing" and "nice guy" tendencies were very strong.  It is not surprising that people like us end up in the "service" professions and that being in those professions can reinforce our people-pleasing tendencies. 

When I started saying "no" to my partner, at first I started with things that I thought were extremely minor, and I was not prepared for the explosive, rageful reactions I received, and the intense judgments she leveled at me--"selfish," "spoiled," "lazy," etc.  I was very inconsistent about saying "no," which is not helpful, but over time, and with the support of many people in my life (and lots of therapy), I got much better at it.

Unfortunately for our relationship, my "no" was generally not accepted, with rare exceptions.  Right now we are in the process of separating, and I am the one who pulled the trigger on that decision.  I suspect that BPD had a lot to do with my partner's inability to accept my growing boundaries, so I say all of this to prepare you for what you might face.  The point is that when you say "no" you are doing it for yourself and your own dignity and values, NOT to "save" the relationship.  The relationship may or may not work out.  With some people it does, in my case it hasn't.  You really won't know until you try.  I encourage you to let go of any attachment to whether the relationship continues, or to whether she accepts your "no," and focus instead on being true to yourself and your own values.  Then let the relationship develop as it may, or die.  I know, much easier said than done!  If the relationship flourishes, it will be in the context of you being true to yourself.

There are also some good books out there on "people pleasing"--just search for that on Amazon or Audible and you will find lots of good resources on how to start saying "no" and on exactly why saying "yes" isn't always a healthy thing to do.

[Medic1]

TRB, Arizona and Slick707

It's refreshing to know we're all similar characters and so have ended up in similar relationships. Thanks for your replies, they're really helping me think through how I react rather than how I can fix things. I've never discussed my relationship with anyone (apart from wife) because I feel like it breeches trust. But this means I just bottle it up and try and cope with it myself - so time for change!

As for the nice guy thing - TRB you're on the right track. I guess we tend to end up in service provision type careers because that's what we're good at. Nothing wrong with being good at being nice - but it shouldn't mean people take advantage of you.

The reading recommendations look good - I've also had some insight from looking at my own character. A while back through work I did the myers briggs personality assessment. It does need interpreted carefully and can sometimes feel like you're reading an astrological star sign ("you're type X and so you will act in this way").

I figured I'm an ISTP - calm/practical, loves fixing things, great in a crisis. But the downside is that I probably come across as insensitive/unemotional when the conversation is about concepts and feelings rather than practical solutions. It's possible that when partner is upset about something I don't provide a greatly visible emotional response even though I deeply care about the situation.

Working on saying no is certainly one aspect for me - but has anyone got experience of emotional validation? My own situation is not severe and has never resulted in hospitalisation. So I wonder if it's worth working on getting the right balance of being emotionally validating of issues but also saying no?

[TRB]

Yes I have worked a lot on validating my partner’s emotions. It has been a mixed bag. I know it is one of the key things that people recommend if you are in a relationship with someone with BPD. In my experience, sometimes it has “worked”
In the sense of helping to soothe her and to de-escalate. Other times she insists that I am being condescending or she demands that she wants more than validation—she wants me to take some action to stop her from feeling how she feels. This is very challenging, because she is lacking the self-awareness that her feelings—especially her feelings in reaction to her own feelings—are caused by her and her own biology and upbringing. She still blames me for her feelings.

What I have heard from other people who have been able to successfully navigate a relationship with someone with BPD (at least if you are trying to achieve a mutually supportive and intimate relationship, and not a caregiving relationship like with a child or elderly parent) is that it requires the person with BPD to take responsibility for their own wiring and to do some hard and sustained work to adjust the ways in which their own feelings spiral out of control. If that doesn’t happen, I don’t think that any amount of validation by the other person is going to achieve a good outcome.

So I would suggest looking for signs that your wife is willing and able to acknowledge the aspects of herself that cause problems in the relationship, and that she is willing to take concrete actions over time to address those problems.

Of course the same is true for you. I have learned the hard way that I have my own serious problems, most what would be called codependency, enabling, caretaking, or the “nice guy syndrome.”  They are all versions of me subordinating my own needs to those of my partner, and also then blaming her and feeling resentful when my needs are not met. It has been a hard lesson to learn to take personal responsibility for my own needs not being met.

If you have not spoken to anyone else, you may wish to find a competent therapist who is familiar with BPD in marriages. Be prepared to try a few people and to switch until you find a good fit.

I would say to also speak to family and friends, but unfortunately in my experience people do not have experience with BPD issues, and can look at you like you are crazy if you tell them the truth. What has worked for me is to mention some of the problems I am experiencing at a high level with a friend or family member and see if they respond with compassion and without judgment. If so, I go further. It is a way to find out who is emotionally safe to be vulnerable with.

Otherwise, this board is a great way to share with and learn from people who have been in your shoes. 

[Arizona]

Look up the LEAP foundation. Dr. Xavier Amador shares good tips on how to validate and communicate effectively with loved ones that suffer from mental health issues. His talks have helped me come to terms with the disorder.