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Author Topic: Novel "Silent Treatment" for TWO Days Now Part 2  (Read 593 times)
WitzEndWife
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« on: June 08, 2020, 12:46:55 PM »

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=344819.0;all

My mother has slightly codependent tendencies. She was definitely the daughter of someone with a PD. However, I don't feel like she really projected that onto us - or, if she did, I strongly rejected it. As a kid, I was always fiercely independent, going my own way always. My traumas I think originated in school, when I was bullied, rejected, and ostracized by a group of horrible "mean girls" who ran everything. At least, that's how I got my framing for everything - I framed the whole world by what others thought of me and that never left me.

I'm FULLY aware of the fact that it is 100 percent me. Through therapy, I've discovered that I'm codependent. I never would have thought that because I thought codependents were needy and clingy and pathetic. I didn't see myself that way, but I guess, under all the independence and "strong woman" vibes I put out, it's all there.

I guess I probably feel partially responsible for him, since I have been taking care of him for five years. Maybe that's part of why I feel so paralyzed. But even knowing that, it's hard to know what to do about a feeling like that. How do you unfeel something? It's hard.

As for the purse strings, FF, they were getting steadily cut, cut, cut, until the whole pandemic thing happened and H came running back home. He couldn't work (who wanted to chauffeur people around in a closed car during a pandemic?), and at the same time all of his plans had come crashing down. Since then, he's been a mix of insanely anxious and manic and morbidly depressed. He kept saying he was going to "look for a job" but I haven't seen any movement there and we haven't talked for a week, so I have NO idea what he's up to right now. Anyway, as I told my T, I am not interested in making this work out, even if he does get a job. There's no guarantee he'd keep a job, for one, and it's not like a job is going to completely change how he treats me or some of his problematic views. So that's really the thing. I feel like I need to wholly focus on me and stop giving him my energy. And if that means paying for a little while longer while I get the strength to cut the strings - and everything - for good, then so be it.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2020, 05:35:28 PM by Cat Familiar » Logged

"Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood. All is riddle, and the key to a riddle is another riddle." - Ralph Waldo Emerson
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« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2020, 01:01:41 PM »

I don't know the divorce laws in your area- but if he's dependent on you, I assume you would be paying out some sort of alimony, at least for a while.

I don't think it's possible to "unfeel" for others. The turning point might be when you are able to feel the same kind of empathy and care for yourself.

It's good to be generous, caring and empathetic. I wonder where this value crossed over to not feeling this for ourselves as well?

I think it comes down to believing we have self worth. 

What makes you feel you are "less than" your H- that your purpose is to meet his needs but not yours?

I think it's a fallacy that co-dependents think they are so selfless and doing others a service. By supporting your H, you actually take away the incentive to look for work and take care of himself. How is this helping him?

If he is truly unable to hold a job due to his mental illness, then he could also be eligible for disability.

I think it would feel very cruel to leave a person with no means of basic support. I think the divorce laws probably address this. But if he is capable of supporting himself in some way, or can get disability, it can probably be arranged that some support is provided for a transition period or for as long as the laws decide.
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WitzEndWife
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« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2020, 01:16:09 PM »

What makes me feel "less than"? I don't know - I don't even think it's feeling "less than" so much as it is feeling like I don't deserve care. It's more of a shame thing than a "I'm not valuable" thing. I know that kind of sounds like the same thing, but I can believe all day long that I'm "worth" more than this. It's not that I think I deserve to be treated poorly, it's that I don't think I'm worthy of the same level of care somehow than others. I would always run away from guys who were too attentive to me, for example. Something about that didn't feel good. I guess that's where the root of all of this is. I'm caring out but not caring in. I guess that starts with me.
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« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2020, 01:30:04 PM »


As for the purse strings, FF, they were getting steadily cut, cut, cut, until the whole pandemic thing happened and H came running back home. 

I'm having a hard time visualizing this.

So..by cut cut cut does that mean he got 100 one week.  90 the next, 80 the next or something like that?

What exactly happen when he came back and asked for money?  Did you say no and then he kept pestering.

If you aren't interested in fixing it...why on earth open the purse at all? 

I'm not criticizing here...I get the feeling there is a thought or motivation or something that is being missed.


Best,

FF
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WitzEndWife
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« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2020, 01:39:39 PM »

I was transferring more and more of his own financial responsibility onto him is what I mean. So, first it was his credit cards, then his car and insurance, then when he moved it was going to be his entire life, basically.

I didn't intend for him to not be back on the purse, but what was I going to do during a pandemic? Now, it's less about not wanting to cut him off again and more about not wanting to argue with him about getting a job, giving him some sort of false hope that, "If you get a job, I'll be happy with our relationship" because obviously I won't.
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« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2020, 01:43:28 PM »

What is keeping you from straight up saying something like: You are an adult and need to be responsible for earning an income. How are you going to make that happen?
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« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2020, 02:04:29 PM »

Cat - I feel like that gives him hope that I'm invested somehow. I want to emotionally divest, not invest more in making sure he does something with his life. I get what you're saying, but I also don't want to get into a battle that I've gotten into before and that I don't want to engage in.
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« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2020, 02:35:44 PM »

I'm not sure this is much different than having an adult child who "fails to launch".  The general plan for this is to make a plan for the child to "move out" while not leaving them flat out with no support. It can involve something like "you will be moving out on this day" and paying 3-6 months rent on an apartment and saying " after that, it's up to you". Some kind of transition. Divorce rules are different but they generally arrange for some kind of support for the dependent spouse. 

But in general, talking about "you have to get a job" doesn't seem to work. They need to be in a situation where they have to get a job to be motivated. The transition idea is also because it's very hard as a parent to cut a child off without any cushion. This makes it more bearable.

I agree that talking about it might end up as a circular argument. I think it's something you would have to pursue- talk to a lawyer, decide what you can live with in terms of support and for how long.

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« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2020, 03:11:13 PM »

  but what was I going to do during a pandemic? 

Take care of yourself...let him solve his problems.

That seems to be the crux of it.  He has an issue and you are the easiest solution (from his point of view).  Why wouldn't he?

I wouldn't let him know that you are happy or unhappy or any of that.  Keep emotion out of it.

I would suggest that you realize you have made an error by solving his problems (perhaps even use the enabling word).  That is going to stop.  Then stop it.

I would keep this completely separate from the status of your marriage.

In fact, it is to your benefit that you hold off on dissolution until he supports himself for a while.

Do you want to talk about the technical details of how to "cut him off"?  Basically he should only have money from you when you say "yes" (no way for him to get it on his own).  And since you have decided not to say yes anymore...that's how it happens.

Best,

FF
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WitzEndWife
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« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2020, 03:55:51 PM »

FF, I know that's what I have to do. I'm really bummed out because I thought we were finally getting to that point. Unfortunately, I have to start all over again.
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« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2020, 06:44:11 PM »

  Unfortunately, I have to start all over again.

What does that mean.."start all over again."?

It might "feel" that way, but the last few years hasn't been erased in a matter of months.

Best,

FF

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WitzEndWife
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« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2020, 11:09:08 AM »

Well, I told him this morning in a text message that I was going to start cutting him off next month, so he'd better figure out something in terms of a job. He said he attended an interview last week but didn't get a call back.

Last night, we kind of got into it over politics again. I told him I didn't want to talk politics and wasn't interested in doing so. He insisted that it wasn't even that he was mad that I didn't agree with him, but he was angry that I didn't "respect" him and didn't acknowledge how much "research" he'd done to arrive at his conclusions. I said that I acknowledged that he'd done a lot of looking into this (all day and night, apparently), but that I didn't agree with him and I would never agree with him. This did not satisfy him. He seems to want me to concede to his POV more than anything else. His POV is that some big scary anarco-communist (an oxymoron IMO, but anyway) organization is trying to stage a coup and has infiltrated and radicalized the left wing in the process. Apparently anyone in the center or the left are all radical terrorists now. He says he's walking around the city with a target on his head because he is white and that he can no longer stand to live in an urban area (he used to be a columnist specializing in urban planning btw). He wants us to move out into the countryside and hunker down, awaiting this liberal commie apocalypse that is upon us.

I try just acknowledging his fear and saying, "Well, maybe if you get a job, you won't be so afraid. And you'll be able to move where you want to move without being reliant on me." He acknowledge that he'd feel safer and more secure if he had a job. I said, "A lot of the times when we feel out of control of our own lives, it can make us more afraid of everything else." He told me to stop "gaslighting" him. Oh well, I tried.

Anyway, I'm putting my foot down. He can go live with his "Mommy" if he doesn't like it.
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« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2020, 11:39:38 AM »

Excerpt
Last night, we kind of got into it over politics again. I told him I didn't want to talk politics and wasn't interested in doing so. He insisted that it wasn't even that he was mad that I didn't agree with him, but he was angry that I didn't "respect" him and didn't acknowledge how much "research" he'd done to arrive at his conclusions. I said that I acknowledged that he'd done a lot of looking into this (all day and night, apparently), but that I didn't agree with him and I would never agree with him.

But yet you talked to him about it...just pointing it out.  If your boundary is that you don't want to talk about politics with him then don't.

Husband: starts talking about politics
You: I don't want to talk about politics, lets talk about something else (suggest a topic)
Husband: Politics...Politics...Politics...
You: I don't want to talk about politics
Husband: Politics...Politics...Politics...
You: I don't want to talk about politics, if we can't talk about something else I'm going out for a walk (take a break)
Husband: FOG...you never want to talk politics with me, a good wife would listen...politics, politics, politics...
You: I'm going for a walk I'll be back in a half hour.

I frequently share this simple boundary analogy, I hope it helps.

Boundary...
Mom's value: I want to take good care of my child and that includes eating good healthy food.
Mom's boundary: Sweets are to be had at special occasions only
Mom's Action: Not buy sweets for her child while grocery shopping

We've all seen this at the grocery store...

A little kid asks mom for candy, mom says no so the kid pouts.  Little kid asks mom again for some candy, mom says no again so the kid whines.  Little kid asks mom again for some candy, mom says no for the third time, this time kid has a full on melt down screaming tantrum (what we call an Extinction Burst). What happens if mom gives in and gets the candy?  That little kid has just learned that having a screaming tantrum will get them what they want and if it gets them what they want once screaming in the grocery store will likely work again. What happens if mom doesn't give in? The kid learns that no means no and he gives up.

This does not mean however that the little kid won't ask again the next time mom and he go to the grocery store...the kid will test the boundary again and so will the person with BPD in your life.  The key here is to always be consistent with your boundary.

Panda39
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WitzEndWife
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« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2020, 12:15:34 PM »

I didn't see acknowledging his core feelings to be "talking politics," but I guess you could see it that way. I was trying another approach, as normally I just hold the boundary and walk off. I have, in the past, broken my boundary though, which is why he keeps trying. Being stuck in the house with someone who is constantly (and I mean constantly) sending articles, making comments, watching videos loudly (I finally got him to wear headphones around the house), and more, it's very hard not to be caught off guard, especially at the end of a long day. He might throw in a sneaky one-off comment as I'm doing something else, and before I stop myself, I have snarked back in some way. I know I should just learn to listen for certain trigger words or coded political language. He is VERY smart and VERY manipulative.

The thing is, every single time we "make up" after a big political battle, it's just both of us tucking things under the rug in order to get along, until H pulls it back out again. I don't see a way forward with him at all that doesn't involve just sticking my head in the sand and ignoring him. And I can't. I'm very outspoken about these things in my public life and being with him makes me feel like the most shameful hypocrite in the world. And there's this weird part of me that believes he's only doing all of this to directly oppose me, because he wasn't at all like this when we first met. In fact, his friends would all message me, shocked, at what he was saying. His mom is shocked as well. It's all so strange. I feel like I've been bait-and-switched, betrayed. And that just adds to everything else.
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« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2020, 12:57:33 PM »

Probably the most important boundary is to stick to your word about ending the finances. If we make a statement and then not follow up on them, they become meaningless.

I agree with the boundary on talking politics, but if you don't feel you can walk away, the other option is to let him talk and not say much or react. You can decide when you have had enough. It might be that he just wants to be heard, it might be he wants a reaction. But you don't have to agree with him to validate his feelings.

Rather than discuss your point of view, another option is to reply with something that validates his feelings. " so and so is a terrorist" you can say "that sounds really scary".  It might be that he calms down after a few minutes of a discussion like this.
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WitzEndWife
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« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2020, 01:46:25 PM »

I definitely plan on starting the pullback on finances next month. I'm over it. He has taken advantage of me time and time again and this is enough. As we speak, he is sitting in the guest room. He has barely come out all day, just moping around. Meanwhile, I've been working since 8 a.m. I hate this. The house is a mess because he pulls things out and doesn't put them back where they go. My dining table has a bunch of his stuff all over it. The downstairs bathroom is a mess and he has never ONCE lifted a finger to clean it. In the upstairs bathroom, he obsessively cuts his hair every day and leaves the hair on the floor or in the sink. It's infuriating. I'm like, "Your mom doesn't live here. Vacuum your hair, please." I shouldn't even HAVE to ask such things. It's disgusting.

Anyway, last night he kept trying to foist the blame onto me over all of this, that *I* was the one who just couldn't get along with him. That's always how he frames it. Well, if I would just concede that he's right, we wouldn't have a problem. It's absolutely absurd.

I'm absolutely fed up. If he doesn't get a job, he's going back home to his mom.
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« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2020, 06:45:05 PM »

Why not just cut off finances?  Don't "start to pull back".

Don't wait till next month.  Start now.

If he delivers a sparkling clean house, you will release some funds.

Best

FF
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WitzEndWife
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« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2020, 11:35:51 AM »

Well...it's not like I'm constantly giving him money or anything. I have paid his monthly bills, most of which have already been paid for the month, so I start not paying next month. He already knows that if he wants to buy anything for himself, I'm not paying for it.
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« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2020, 01:10:52 PM »


I understand that..the monthly are done, I certainly wouldn't try to "take it back".

I "alerted" on the language that "starting to " pull back on paying his bills.

So..2 month process...4...or...1 day process.  Very very different.

You get my vote.  No more.

I could be talked into adding money to what he makes.  So he makes 3 dollars and you contribute 1 to "encourage him".   

I would also encourage you to directly ask him to clean the house.

"Babe..I'm really stressed and short on time, I would appreciate it if you could clean the house today.  I'd love to share a meal with you tonight in an organized and clean house."

No mention of his habits...just lay it out there and move on with life.

Best,

FF

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WitzEndWife
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« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2020, 02:24:07 PM »

Thanks FF - he often bristles when I make a request of any kind, but I can certainly try framing it up that way.
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« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2020, 12:25:35 AM »

Thanks FF - he often bristles when I make a request of any kind, but I can certainly try framing it up that way.

Let him bristle.  Let him do whatever...

My big picture for you in the next few weeks.

You will be communicating succinctly and clearly.  Your actions will match words.  Boundaries will hold.

He will then have choices to make.

Best,

FF
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