Kickoff Call with L — input and advice please

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Hi all,

I’m rescheduling calls with two Ls this week and next week.  H still hasn’t gone back to work, but is “trying” to in a couple of weeks. It’s hard to get privacy for the calls, but I don’t feel I can wait as H is suggesting things that may impact.

I’m just going to list questions I have, in no particular order.  Can you all let me know what I’ve missed, if any aren’t relevant or should wait?

1. Married 26 years, H primary breadwinner (past 5 years, he’s made 7-10x what I have) — is alimony a foregone conclusion?
2. How close are the calculators? (I know they may be overstated)
3. Two minor children — assume child support is in order — is this a guarantee?
4. I have stayed home (always worked from home) with all 4 kids and done every doctor, dentist, eye doctor, school, extracurricular. H has been to 6 doctor appts (first check up and 2 specialists (1 time), quarter of extracurriculars and a generously given (my #) half of school. How likely is it that I will get majority custody?  
5. What rights could I lose if I leave the home?
6. Can I take the minor kids if I do?
7. Do I have to do anything legally in advance to do so (or should I)?
8. Debts are mostly typical — house and cars.
9. I have a new job —pays more than I’ve ever made, so now require less help. I’m okay with that. Can I/should I deposit this in my own account or our joint account (this would be more typical)?  Both legal right and not rousing suspicion.
10. H has increased his income the past 5-6 years mostly for college and other large bills.  The L asked for last 5 years, I think H will argue that the numbers are inflated. Thoughts on this?  True to an extent, but also shows what he can make, too, but he chooses not to.  Also, decimated from covid and starting to work a little (mostly watches movies and is on Facebook). Worried this won’t help, but also worried if I wait I get further away from what he is capable of. Thoughts?
11. H has grad school loans that he has mismanaged to say the least. Quit a job years ago when I was pregnant with kid two, defaulted on them with no income. Rehabbed them and he put them in 6 years of forbearance (max available). Interest compounded. Made sporadic payments, refinanced and currently in covid deferment (wasn’t a choice, this was automatic).  He has me handle admin on bills (I see what a fool I’ve been) and I have concern that he’s going to blame me for making virtually no headway on these. I thought we were a team and I warned him every extravagant vacation he “needed” (3-4x/year), new car, kid in college that we had bills to pay. But it was always...okay, after x, we’ll get caught up. I have no way to prove this.  Any thoughts?  
12. I have small inheritance, kept in personal account, but have been using to keep us afloat right now (he hasn’t worked in 3 months) and a couple unexpected larger household expenses. Can he get half of what’s left?
13. If so, can I assign to his future inheritance?  His mother has told him she has cash and house he will share with one sibling. It would be a close exchange. Thoughts?

More about lawyer...

1. How many HC divorces have you dealt with?
2. Can you tell me about one?
3. What approach did you take?
4. Resolution took how long?
5. Was it what you expected?
6. Was client happy?
7. Familiar with assertive vs. doormat vs. aggressive?
8. Gaslighting?
9. PD experience.  Can I say? Can I show the rage text messages?
10. H is a super aggressive litigator.  Concerned I won’t find a L that isn’t conflicted OR that will take me because he likely has a reputation that proceeds him in legal community.  Then what?
11. How much should I expect this will cost?  If he unnecessarily makes it take longer and get more expensive than reasonably necessary, can I make him pay legal fees?
12. Think want time to make logistical plans before proceeding, thoughts?  
13. Next steps?
14. What should I be doing right now to prepare?
15. Can I remove belongings, money right now?  Certain things I’d like — nothing big but kid stuff he might use/destroy.


I don’t know if this is too much, not enough or how to organize most effectively. Welcome all input. Thank you!

I will also share my partially planned logistics in a separate thread.  

[UBPDHelp]

Hi all,

I’m rescheduling calls with two Ls this week and next week.  H still hasn’t gone back to work, but is “trying” to in a couple of weeks. It’s hard to get privacy for the calls, but I don’t feel I can wait as H is suggesting things that may impact.

I’m just going to list questions I have, in no particular order.  Can you all let me know what I’ve missed, if any aren’t relevant or should wait?

1. Married 26 years, H primary breadwinner (past 5 years, he’s made 7-10x what I have) — is alimony a foregone conclusion?
2. How close are the calculators? (I know they may be overstated)
3. Two minor children — assume child support is in order — is this a guarantee?
4. I have stayed home (always worked from home) with all 4 kids and done every doctor, dentist, eye doctor, school, extracurricular. H has been to 6 doctor appts (first check up and 2 specialists (1 time), quarter of extracurriculars and a generously given (my #) half of school. How likely is it that I will get majority custody?  
5. What rights could I lose if I leave the home?
6. Can I take the minor kids if I do?
7. Do I have to do anything legally in advance to do so (or should I)?
8. Debts are mostly typical — house and cars.
9. I have a new job —pays more than I’ve ever made, so now require less help. I’m okay with that. Can I/should I deposit this in my own account or our joint account (this would be more typical)?  Both legal right and not rousing suspicion.
10. H has increased his income the past 5-6 years mostly for college and other large bills.  The L asked for last 5 years, I think H will argue that the numbers are inflated. Thoughts on this?  True to an extent, but also shows what he can make, too, but he chooses not to.  Also, decimated from covid and starting to work a little (mostly watches movies and is on Facebook). Worried this won’t help, but also worried if I wait I get further away from what he is capable of. Thoughts?
11. H has grad school loans that he has mismanaged to say the least. Quit a job years ago when I was pregnant with kid two, defaulted on them with no income. Rehabbed them and he put them in 6 years of forbearance (max available). Interest compounded. Made sporadic payments, refinanced and currently in covid deferment (wasn’t a choice, this was automatic).  He has me handle admin on bills (I see what a fool I’ve been) and I have concern that he’s going to blame me for making virtually no headway on these. I thought we were a team and I warned him every extravagant vacation he “needed” (3-4x/year), new car, kid in college that we had bills to pay. But it was always...okay, after x, we’ll get caught up. I have no way to prove this.  Any thoughts?  
12. I have small inheritance, kept in personal account, but have been using to keep us afloat right now (he hasn’t worked in 3 months) and a couple unexpected larger household expenses. Can he get half of what’s left?
13. If so, can I assign to his future inheritance?  His mother has told him she has cash and house he will share with one sibling. It would be a close exchange. Thoughts?

More about lawyer...

1. How many HC divorces have you dealt with?
2. Can you tell me about one?
3. What approach did you take?
4. Resolution took how long?
5. Was it what you expected?
6. Was client happy?
7. Familiar with assertive vs. doormat vs. aggressive?
8. Gaslighting?
9. PD experience.  Can I say? Can I show the rage text messages?
10. H is a super aggressive litigator.  Concerned I won’t find a L that isn’t conflicted OR that will take me because he likely has a reputation that proceeds him in legal community.  Then what?
11. How much should I expect this will cost?  If he unnecessarily makes it take longer and get more expensive than reasonably necessary, can I make him pay legal fees?
12. Think want time to make logistical plans before proceeding, thoughts?  
13. Next steps?
14. What should I be doing right now to prepare?
15. Can I remove belongings, money right now?  Certain things I’d like — nothing big but kid stuff he might use/destroy.


I don’t know if this is too much, not enough or how to organize most effectively. Welcome all input. Thank you!

I will also share my partially planned logistics in a separate thread.  

[GaGrl]

This looks comprehensive.

What do you need for the current college student. What do you need for future college costs?

[PeteWitsend]

I also think this looks very comprehensive.  Remember to give yourself some time to ask follow up questions, if the discussion leads to them, but be sure to keep track of your list, so you don't forget to ask something, or skip something important.

I have a couple additional comments:

1) Don't let fear control you; assuming you and your kids are physically safe, don't make decisions in favor of your husband out of fear of what he might do or say about it.  You need to have courage in your convictions here, and stand by them.  

It's better to have something and make them ask for it, than it is to give it to them.  Apply that rationale to everything: housing, money, possession, personal property, etc.  But, of course, don't do anything malicious to this end, like intentionally hide assets from the court.  

2) Don't take all the BPDers threats so seriously.  The techniques BPDers use to get their way in real life (gaslighting, lying, exaggerating, screaming, wild threats, etc. etc.) DO NOT fly in court, and in front of a judge.  While a judge may not throw your soon-to-be-ex out for a few transgressions, he's not going to sit there and let him spin and bully you.

Remember, in real life, anyone can say anything they want, but in court, it has to be backed up by admissible evidence.  And not only that, but getting admissible evidence costs money, often serious money, especially if we're talking about authenticating and reviewing hundred or thousands of electronic communications like emails and texts (it is really wild how many texts we send on a daily basis, and all have to be reviewed by attorneys before they get admitted).  

At trial, my XW kept trying to bring up her sob stories about how bad of a husband I was, and how disloyal I was, etc.  My attorney would object to everything, b/c none of it was relevant to the testimony at hand.  All his objections were sustained.  The judge finally turned and said to my XW: "If he *pointing to my attorney* starts to stand up, just stop talking."

All the judge cares about is the objective record laid out before him or her, and fitting that into state family law guidelines and prior case law.  

He or she doesn't care who was mean to who, who rolled their eyes, who "always" did this and "never" did that, etc. etc. … the things that are so important to BPDers.

[ForeverDad]

Make sure you've kept all the inheritance in separate personal account(s), your name only or at least not joint with your spouse.  The amounts you've withdrawn and used for the family are likely now considered merged with the marital finances.  The remainder is still yours alone as long as the accounts don't list him as joint with your husband.  Of course, verify this with your attorney or legal professional.

There is no legal requirement for you to put your paycheck into a joint account.  Financially it instead just postpones a piece of the financial connection that will need to be done upon separation and divorce.  I recall when I my ex sabotaged me getting a loan from my work's retirement account (she refused to sign a spousal acknowledgement) I then had to rush and get financing from my bank.  It told me I had to deposit my paycheck there as a condition of the loan and have automatic loan payments withdrawn.  My then-spouse got enraged but I presented it was a done deal and the only way to get a car loan once I couldn't get it out of my 401(k).

As for housing, are you by default thinking you have to leave?  If that is the time when you will be filing for divorce, then you can file for possession of the marital home for the duration of the divorce whereupon the other spouse would have to move out.  (Some states, NY is one I think, may require most divorcing spouses, barring abuse, live together for a year in hopes they later reconcile.)  Of course, if you can't afford the expense of the home mortgage and utilities long term, then it may have to be sold eventually but that might be an issue addressed later in the divorce.

15. Can I remove belongings, money right now?  Certain things I’d like — nothing big but kid stuff he might use/destroy.

Overall, probably yes but of course as much as possible do it with things he may not notice once gone and without creating scenes.  As spouse you have equal but generally as yet undefined rights, no courts orders yet.  He may claim you're hiding things, your position is that you're preserving things.  It's all perspective and I doubt a court would take a position against you.

We do encourage you to get as many legal documents and information copied or secured as possible in advance.  Saves a ton of effort and stonewalling later.  Original passports for you and children, copies of birth certificates, SSN numbers, up to 5-7 years of tax filings, property deeds, vehicles titles, mortgage and loan documents, all credit and debit account numbers and statements, etc.

Of course, such copies and items stored must be somewhere else where he can't access or where he is less likely to intimidate you to return.

[MeandThee29]

Looks like you have it covered. A few thoughts.

In my state, inheritances that are kept separate from joint accounts are only yours. I wish I had grasped that because I gave my ex money from an inherited IRA multiple times in separation and then was going to the food bank a few months later because moving and getting the house wiped out my savings. Dumb. I should have refused. I was too nice.

Future inheritances don't go into the agreement. If a friend tells you that they'll give you their couch when they buy a new one in the next year or so, does that go into the divorce agreement? No. You can't commit to giving or sharing something you don't already own. Again, a judge would never order that.

Some attorneys aren't going to grasp the high conflict or personality disorder labels but will be excellent on these types of cases because of the breadth of experience they've had. If they are calm but flexible and relentless, they probably will be fine. They don't have to know the particulars if they can adjust and propose without getting wrapped up in the drama. If you have to go to court on anything, having an attorney that the judges like will help a lot too. Mine founded a firm with a specialty in high conflict, so I was encouraged by that. But more than anything, he was calm and persistent. My ex's attorney clearly respected him too, which helped. When they talked, things moved forward.

It was also very important to me to get an attorney with a pleasant personality. I interviewed some that I didn't like in the first five minutes. Mine was positive and polite with a good sense of humor. There was one appointment when we laughed so hard we cried. He is retired now, but he was just such a lovely person and an outstanding lawyer. I picked well. He had a strong reputation as a gifted litigator (in court), but I didn't need that.

One of the interesting questions I asked was about the underlying principles that under-gird their work. Mine said politeness, ethics, and good communication.

[UBPDHelp]

I apologize for not having the bandwidth to reply to each.

H is dysregulating again about household stuff and it’s so difficult.

I don’t care about money from his mom, I just wanted to know if I can get him to back off mine in exchange for not going after his. It’s fine.

It is in a separate account in my name only. I’ve dipped into it for stuff, so I hope that doesn’t trip sharing it.

He hasn’t worked in 3.5 months but did get some PPP so has about 1/3 of his pay. He refused to speak to me for 8-9 days at beginning of pandemic, broke dishes, threw coffee and broke a tv.

Told me to “make sure I was taking advantage of any programs” for bills. I told him I was but the mortgage is in his name and I can’t do anything with it including pay for it. I tried to talk to him about it and he refuses to discuss. They put us in a 3 month forbearance (via email inquiry about options, not requested, they just did it).  I have phoned every couple of days but after an hour, give up. The three months is up. I have almost two months put aside and was going to take the third month from my inheritance if I had to.

Today he demanded bank account info (again). He’s always had it but can’t be bothered with it so now doesn’t remember it. There’s no money, which I told him, except the money aside for the mortgage. I am now having to tell him when he’s refused to discuss this entire time. I know he will dysregulate further.

He sent me an email stating a financial disclosure on this date and time I told him there was no money. 

I am going to give him all the login, tell him about the mortgage, let him know the bills that are outstanding and give him the breakdown of how far we are behind in pay.

It’s his problem now.

I’m so defeated. This is the hundredth time he’s made something my problem to figure out and refuses to provide input and then comes in and flips out.

I can’t and I’m terrified. Thoughts?

[ct21218]

I would not give him the login without speaking to an attorney.  I would imagine he would spend the money and blow off the mortgage.

[GaGrl]

I would not give him the login without speaking to an attorney.  I would imagine he would spend the money and blow off the mortgage.

My bank has a separate login for each person on the account. Don't give him your login. If he forgot his login, he can get that info himself.

Don't enable.

Can you give him a list of bills due with amounts, including mortgage, and the current balance in the joint account. Just on paper -- then let him deal with what comes up for him.

[ForeverDad]

I would, if at all possible, stop Gifting your inheritance into the marital finances.  You don't have to explain or defend — nor should you knowing how well he can manipulate you — just stop enabling him to mooch off your emergency stash (inheritance).  Mortgage is in his name, then his problem.  You've said he can work at a great income but is essentially loafing and bumping work down the road.  After all, why should he work if he knows you'll feel obligated and plug the financial gaps?

Make sure your inheritance account is not accessible through any login he can get either from you or from the bank staff.  If you have it linked to a joint marital account, then sever that electronic link.  Better to have to manually transfer funds in an emergency than expose it to any risk he might claim it is part of marital funds after all.  Some here would suggest not even to hold the inheritance in the same bank so you feel safer about the matter.

This is a time to learn about TMI — gifting too much information.  This is a time to hold some of your information and strategies close to your selves and support.  Yes, court would have you share necessary information about parenting and major custody issues but little else, mostly the marital expenses, etc.  Avoid TMI, it could give him ammunition to intimidate, guilt or manipulate you.  It might even be used to sabotage your time-tested strategies we recommend to you.

Ponder all the myriad ways you can be more assertive and proactive about all these various concerns.  Have you noticed how quick we are to notice risks and better strategies?  That's because we've collectively "seen it all" in the many cases we've mentored here.  We were gullible novices when we arrived here years ago, but now we're able to perceive most of the traps before we stumble into them.

[UBPDHelp]

I would not give him the login without speaking to an attorney.  I would imagine he would spend the money and blow off the mortgage.

Hi ct21218,

Thanks. I didn’t want to respond until after I spoke to the attorney in a few days, but that is a lifetime in NPD/BPD.

And, whether he can figure out the login or not, he has the debit card attached to it, so technically he could spend it all anyway.

Thank you for sharing your concerns...it’s helpful to know others can see my perspective.

[UBPDHelp]

My bank has a separate login for each person on the account. Don't give him your login. If he forgot his login, he can get that info himself.

Don't enable.

Can you give him a list of bills due with amounts, including mortgage, and the current balance in the joint account. Just on paper -- then let him deal with what comes up for him.

Good points. He can get his own login, that’s true.

I can’t speak to attorney for a few days. H is an attorney so the message he sent me was a legal notice that he was putting me on record as saying something. I suppose it’s my word vs his, and likely a bunch of hot air, but honestly that’s almost worse.

He’s refused to discuss details, which he now denies. Absolute bs. I journaled whenever he refused, contemporaneously to the times of his refusal.  

He just bought a one way ticket back to managing his bills. I won’t be responsible to implement joint agreements re: finances when he is setting me up.  He wants separate accounts, he’s got it.

Anyway, after I finished working, I told him that of the three joint accounts, two had nothing (one will need funded for an upcoming recurring bill) and the third had the (almost) two mortgage payments.

I then told him the issue with the mortgage (he’s not concerned), the other bills that were coming due, etc.  He handled it a smidge better than so-so, but I feel better that I’m not managing alone because he refuses. He gets to figure it out now.

Doesn’t really change the big picture, but provides some breathing room.

Re: the stance that he never said he wouldn’t discuss — it’s a total lie — how can I protect myself from this going forward?  I documented for myself, but not sure that proves anything.

Also, he’s rewriting that he hasn’t been available for any adult responsibility the entire 3.5 months we’ve been home. I don’t let him off on these things because then it becomes truth. It’s not. Absolutely not.

Thanks for your input.

[ForeverDad]

If you haven't filed the divorce yet, be aware that filing sets a line in the sand and things are different post-filing.  Generally child support and the possible spousal or household support is retroactive back to that filing date, once you get to the temp hearing.  But an enforceable temp hearing and order can be a month or more later.  Back in 2006 I didn't have my divorce temp hearing until 8 weeks later.  Until then it was mostly Wild West (virtually no rules).  Who knows how long it can take these days while the lockdown is ending.

[UBPDHelp]

I would, if at all possible, stop Gifting your inheritance into the marital finances.  You don't have to explain or defend — nor should you knowing how well he can manipulate you — just stop enabling him to mooch off your emergency stash (inheritance).  Mortgage is in his name, then his problem.  You've said he can work at a great income but is essentially loafing and bumping work down the road.  After all, why should he work if he knows you'll feel obligated and plug the financial gaps?

Agree. At beginning of pandemic he was a complete basket case. He broke things, didn’t speak to me for days (8-9). Stopped working entirely and he’d already been sloughing off. Very narcissistic entitled to things.

Anyway, I fretted over bills and trying to keep things going he was unavailable and incapable. I had to make tough calls on my own. I have four kids home so was careful. Just me, I would have left.

I ended up passing the mortgage back to him, told him what other bills he needed to address including a big bill coming in a few months. I’m not going to lose sleep over it.

Make sure your inheritance account is not accessible through any login he can get either from you or from the bank staff.  If you have it linked to a joint marital account, then sever that electronic link.  Better to have to manually transfer funds in an emergency than expose it to any risk he might claim it is part of marital funds after all.  Some here would suggest not even to hold the inheritance in the same bank so you feel safer about the matter.

It’s a different bank, only my name and he could never figure out the login. I made sure of it. It’s not in a saved password anywhere. He doesn’t have debit card or checks. I’ve written checks to use and clearly noted what they were for. But, he’s going back to work (not holding breath) and knows what he’s got to cover. Up to him now. I’ve finished.

This is a time to learn about TMI — gifting too much information.  This is a time to hold some of your information and strategies close to your selves and support.  Yes, court would have you share necessary information about parenting and major custody issues but little else, mostly the marital expenses, etc.  Avoid TMI, it could give him ammunition to intimidate, guilt or manipulate you.  It might even be used to sabotage your time-tested strategies we recommend to you.

Can you clarify — share or don’t share marital expenses?

Ponder all the myriad ways you can be more assertive and proactive about all these various concerns.  Have you noticed how quick we are to notice risks and better strategies?  That's because we've collectively "seen it all" in the many cases we've mentored here.  We were gullible novices when we arrived here years ago, but now we're able to perceive most of the traps before we stumble into them.

Ugh, that’s both depressing and inspiring!

I’m working on paying off debt, improving my credit and doing a good job. My job is my lifeline. I’m still concerned because, while it’s a start and a decent income, I will have 4 people to support. That changes the value some. I will need some financial support and that is my next biggest concern.

Thanks ForeverDad for the wise advice.

Feel free to share any other tricks you foresee...appreciate it!

[UBPDHelp]

If you haven't filed the divorce yet, be aware that filing sets a line in the sand and things are different post-filing.  Generally child support and the possible spousal or household support is retroactive back to that filing date, once you get to the temp hearing.  But an enforceable temp hearing and order can be a month or more later.  Back in 2006 I didn't have my divorce temp hearing until 8 weeks later.  Until then it was mostly Wild West (virtually no rules).  Who knows how long it can take these days while the lockdown is ending.

Good point.

I want to talk to L to know my rights and what to expect. But, I’d like to wait a bit before proceeding to:

Have more time on new job (=stability)
Get my credit score where getting an apartment/buying a house are non-issues
Let him return to work to get back some of the money I put into joint expenses — I believe I can do that where I documented. Idk, does that sound right?  Should I set up an account separate from inheritance for payback?

[livednlearned]

That's a really well thought out list. Maybe the most comprehensive I've seen on these boards!

Two things to add.

Be clear about your goals. For example: "I want primary physically custody and sole legal custody, and a visitation schedule that is _________% with me, and ________% with him. Given the information I've shared, what strategy and tactics would you propose.

Strategies offered by different Ls will vary depending on what your specific circumstances are. But it will press a potential lawyer to be specific so you can compare how two different lawyers might approach your case. It will hopefully help you assess whether they intend to be aggressive, assertive, or generally push papers around.

Tactics can include: custody evaluation with MMPI-3 instrument, depositions (lawyers use this to size up whether opposing parties are credible witnesses -- if so, they may push to settle rather than go to trial); involving third-party professionals like parenting coordinators, coparenting counselors, child psychologists, etc. to build a document trail.

Also, you might want to ask: How long can I expect to hear back from you when I send a message? Do you have suggestions for things I can do to save myself money? Do you have less expensive associates I can communicate with when I have procedural questions?

I don't know how to word this exact question, but my L regularly turned down work because she wanted to be able to give the clients she had enough time. So you don't want to retain someone who is regularly overloaded.

Plus maybe: What advice to you have for me in the weeks leading up to having him served? Is there anything I should know about the different ways to do this?

I believe it's in Eddy's book Splitting where he describes how the financial side of things is more like ending a business and it's relatively straight forward. I know how important it is to us, but for lawyers, it's more about what's standard. And then there's a bit of  negotiation that in our cases tends to be more dramatic than what we'd like, but it still has a fairly straightforward outcome. (What I found shocking is how casually lawyers toss around numbers like $10K as though it was nothing).

Where things get complicated and emotional and honestly heart-breaking is the custody stuff. Your ex is likely to fight for more than he actually wants -- his intention is to win at all costs, even if it's for something he doesn't want, or doesn't know what to do with if he had it, like lots of time with the kids.

I know, he says he loves the kids. He's also not showing up for them consistently and (in my opinion) that matters more than declarations of love. Hopefully this means that the Ls you talk to will be swift in addressing the financial stuff and take more time explaining how best to handle custody issues.

I would also group your questions together and if there's a way to do it, record the conversation. It surprised me how emotional I became when talking to Ls, and how flooded my brain became. It can be hard to remember things and the conversation may move very quickly and get jumbled in your memory. I would recommend someone taking notes but with covid I know that's harder to make happen.

[ForeverDad]

Can you clarify — share or don’t share marital expenses?

Of course you do have to share appropriate marital information.  After the divorce is final it is usually limited to parenting issues such as exchange details ("Stuck in traffic, will be a little late", "Can we agree to trade parenting time such as XX dates for YY dates?", etc).  Life happens and throws obstacles in front of even the best (or "least bad") parenting schedules.

How the expenses will be handled is appropriate before, during and after.  What will help resolve the differences?  Conversely, what might aggravate them?

Here's an example what not to do.  "Please pay the XX expenses, otherwise I will have to use the YY money I've set aside if you don't pay."  Sure, you can have emergency money set aside but you don't share all your strategies since TMI can be used against you.  It could be brief, just the first half of the above text.  Or you could instead finish with how doing that would be a benefit for the children.  In time you will get used to phrasing your communications carefully and in ways that are less likely to trigger an overreaction.

[UBPDHelp]

That's a really well thought out list. Maybe the most comprehensive I've seen on these boards!

Two things to add.

Be clear about your goals. For example: "I want primary physically custody and sole legal custody, and a visitation schedule that is _________% with me, and ________% with him. Given the information I've shared, what strategy and tactics would you propose.

This is good. Thank you.

Strategies offered by different Ls will vary depending on what your specific circumstances are. But it will press a potential lawyer to be specific so you can compare how two different lawyers might approach your case. It will hopefully help you assess whether they intend to be aggressive, assertive, or generally push papers around.

Good point. I may need help assessing the responses...I’ll be back with details when I have them.

Tactics can include: custody evaluation with MMPI-3 instrument, depositions (lawyers use this to size up whether opposing parties are credible witnesses -- if so, they may push to settle rather than go to trial); involving third-party professionals like parenting coordinators, coparenting counselors, child psychologists, etc. to build a document trail.

No idea what MMPI-3 is.

The deposition concerns me. H is aggressive and I imagine his L will be as well. He’s had me (and I thought I was holding up my familial responsibility so didn’t question) manage bill payment, which has been ugly. Mostly because he likes vacations/buying extras. Every time I balked he shamed me or intimidated me and I’d try to shuffle bills around. They often snowballed and I’d have to make adjustments. Nothing nefarious, but the constant flux was exhausting and keeping the records clear just wasn’t possible. I fear it’s going to appear I’ve wholly mismanaged.

Example, he’s a lawyer. He gets paid when his clients pay. Generally he would have a weekly check. Occasionally (sometimes more often), he’d go a week or two with no check and make it up at some point in the future. When this first started, I would ask about weekly check so I knew what bills I could pay. After a while (not happening every week, but periods of late and then weeks not), he started getting angry when I did and because previously he would make it up, I just backed off assuming it would come in the next couple of weeks as it had previously. I talked to him about letting me know if he wouldn’t have a check so I could pay most important things and hold off on others. He said he didn’t know when he wouldn’t. As time passed he would just go weeks with no check, wouldn’t say anything and I didn’t want to get my head bit off. We had kids in college paying out of pocket and so there was a lot of money moving and not pretty. I don’t think I could even recreate how or why on anything but the big stuff. More recently he’s also had a check but not given it to me for a week or two.

I really worry that this is going to make me look bad and he’s going to be like see what she did.  Any suggestions?  Should I start trying to note the past two years?

Also, you might want to ask: How long can I expect to hear back from you when I send a message? Do you have suggestions for things I can do to save myself money? Do you have less expensive associates I can communicate with when I have procedural questions?

I don't know how to word this exact question, but my L regularly turned down work because she wanted to be able to give the clients she had enough time. So you don't want to retain someone who is regularly overloaded.

Plus maybe: What advice to you have for me in the weeks leading up to having him served? Is there anything I should know about the different ways to do this?

These are all good.  

I believe it's in Eddy's book Splitting where he describes how the financial side of things is more like ending a business and it's relatively straight forward. I know how important it is to us, but for lawyers, it's more about what's standard. And then there's a bit of  negotiation that in our cases tends to be more dramatic than what we'd like, but it still has a fairly straightforward outcome. (What I found shocking is how casually lawyers toss around numbers like $10K as though it was nothing).

I hope. I don’t know that my H, who has massive denial that he is ever wrong (dare you to read my threads on the Bettering board — don’t, no one has that much time or energy!), is capable of doing anything easy.

Based on the online calculators, it shows him having to do permanent alimony — married 25 years, I’m about 15-16 years from full retirement.

He’s upped his income the past 5-6 years for college money, so I backed his income down anticipating this (will suggest L argue he’s capable of making higher amount (5 year proof), so maybe we can settle at the backed down amount, instead of negotiating down from that).

2 minor kids and CS is a calculation of income of both parents and # of days with each. I’m assuming this is pretty set once time split is set.

Of note, my 5 year average is about half what my new job pays. I assume that will be used rather than an average. Feels like I could get it from both sides...does that make sense?

Okay, so if I have those calculations, where do most people end up?  80%, 50%?  Any thoughts?

Made up #s

Alimony - 2500
CS - 1500 (based on every other weekend, 2 weeks in summer and alternating holidays, like 75 days/260 days)

What do you think final numbers might look like?

Where things get complicated and emotional and honestly heart-breaking is the custody stuff. Your ex is likely to fight for more than he actually wants -- his intention is to win at all costs, even if it's for something he doesn't want, or doesn't know what to do with if he had it, like lots of time with the kids.

I know, he says he loves the kids. He's also not showing up for them consistently and (in my opinion) that matters more than declarations of love. Hopefully this means that the Ls you talk to will be swift in addressing the financial stuff and take more time explaining how best to handle custody issues.

He does love them somewhere. He’s also used them to look better himself (oldest went to a really good college, he told everyone, wore their logo everyday/everywhere, bought no less than 30 tshirts and 10 hats — he’s even trying to get in for ANOTHER advanced degree — this was beyond proud, it was somehow an extension of him and his accomplishment).  

Our oldest is close with him but also tormented by some of his behaviors.  Middle two really despise him. It’s been tough because they’ve received some intense things from him but he’s also upped his behavior to me in front of them. This leads me trying to console them and let them know dad’s issue is with me and that he does love them. I believe he does, in the way he can.

I could actually use some advice how to handle this better...I’m worried trying to support them and reassure them it’s not them that’s the cause could be construed as trying to estrange them...idk.

Our youngest also loves dad and is mostly unaware of dynamic. But getting old enough. They rough house a lot, but occasionally youngest gets dad good and you can see him flash anger and tell youngest to go. Youngest seems a bit confused but runs along. I keep asking H not to rough house so much especially when it goes wrong.

BUT, I don’t want the kids between all of this. I know the oldest three would be truthful that dad behaves BADLY and that in that regard would help me. But I’d really rather not put them through this, especially as H will see this as a betrayal (rather than an honest retelling) and will likely discard them (middle two say they never want to see him, but not good idea). What can I do to lessen this for them?

I would also group your questions together and if there's a way to do it, record the conversation. It surprised me how emotional I became when talking to Ls, and how flooded my brain became. It can be hard to remember things and the conversation may move very quickly and get jumbled in your memory. I would recommend someone taking notes but with covid I know that's harder to make happen.

Good ideas. I’m going to pare down my topics for this initial call, I’ll share for comment a little later (sorry, probably bored with it!).

Thanks LNL!

[UBPDHelp]

Of course you do have to share appropriate marital information.  After the divorce is final it is usually limited to parenting issues such as exchange details ("Stuck in traffic, will be a little late", "Can we agree to trade parenting time such as XX dates for YY dates?", etc).  Life happens and throws obstacles in front of even the best (or "least bad") parenting schedules.

How the expenses will be handled is appropriate before, during and after.  What will help resolve the differences?  Conversely, what might aggravate them?

Here's an example what not to do.  "Please pay the XX expenses, otherwise I will have to use the YY money I've set aside if you don't pay."  Sure, you can have emergency money set aside but you don't share all your strategies since TMI can be used against you.  It could be brief, just the first half of the above text.  Or you could instead finish with how doing that would be a benefit for the children.  In time you will get used to phrasing your communications carefully and in ways that are less likely to trigger an overreaction.

Thanks ForeverDad.  Per my above reply to LNL, do you have any suggestions about time and effort trying to explain the flow of money for bills?  I couldn’t do it all, but is it worth doing what I can?  Again nothing nefarious, just terrible management.

Thanks for the distinction what to share and what not to share.

[GaGrl]

As to the money flow, you can print bank statements (which will be required during discovery anyway), and then highlight/notate when deposits were made that were his paychecks, Where The major expenses were paid, and where you deposited from your own funds. Provide a synopsis -- it tells a story.

[ForeverDad]

The MMPI-2 has been often mentioned here over the years, it is a mental health assessment test.  The MMPI-3 ... Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory-3 is the updated version but I don't know how many professionals are using it yet.  Here's one of my recent posts discussing them.

For me a psych evaluation was a couple hours interview and testing — by a grad student at the county mental health facility.  So wow, I had anxiety, I already knew that.   So view the psych eval as a quickie indicator, an overview that may help and not the final word.

What your stbEx is less likely to fool is an in-depth custody evaluation which can take up to a few months by a (hopefully) professional psychologist or similarly qualified.  There will be multiple interviews with the parents separately and also with the children.  There are also mental health questionnaires such as the MMPI-2 or the newer MMPI-3 which are designed to outwit even the master manipulators.  My CE was a child psychologist who also taught at the local university.  My lawyer said he was so respected that the court had never gone against his recommendations, in lawyer's words, treated him like god.

Again, not just any custody evaluator can handle a high conflict matter.  The CE can make — or break — a case.

[ForeverDad]

Depositions are a two-way street — this is where you and your stbEx have equal rights.  Yes, at some point your ex's lawyer may want to depose you seeking information that would be advantageous to his/her client.  However, you too can have your lawyer depose your stbEx seeking information that would be advantageous to you.

Many lawyers can choose to do much of this information gathering in writing with questionnaires known as interrogatories.  I would add a caution.  Our natural inclination is to be super cooperative, that's who we are as Nice Guys and Nice Gals.  But we all know that these acting-out Personality Disorders (PDs) transform our ex-spouses into the opposite.  How to address that gulf of perceptions and behaviors?

...she doesn't respond to anything.  For example, we sent financial statements two months ago and she hasn't even acknowledged receipt.  All we've heard is that she's changed lawyers, which I expect will happen a few times.

I faced that dilemma twice.  Once when we were both ordered to take Psych Evals.  I did and shared it.  (I had anxiety.)  She never did, or at least I never found out.  Second was when her lawyer sent divorce interrogatories but we were already divorced and back in court for custody issues.  Due to her lawyer never responding, my lawyer got frustrated and sent them our focused list of interrogatories.  My due date came first of course and my lawyer sent some 600 pages I had gathered.  Her due date came and we got "crickets".  That's right, nothing!

From those experiences I told my lawyer we can't expect cooperation and if something like that came up again I instructed him to hold our information and simply communicate, "Our paperwork is ready.  When your paperwork is ready, we can EXCHANGE them."

Oh, do keep a journal but your stbEx does not have a right to browse it.  (Courts will allow you to review it to refresh your memory on details while on the stand but her lawyer can't rifle through it.)  One time I left behind my page-a-day at the dental office and they let her walk out with it.  When I found out, I had to ask her for its return.  Of course she had added snarky comments in it.

[ForeverDad]

The deposition concerns me. H is aggressive and I imagine his L will be as well. He’s had me (and I thought I was holding up my familial responsibility so didn’t question) manage bill payment, which has been ugly...

I really worry that this is going to make me look bad and he’s going to be like see what she did.  Any suggestions?  Should I start trying to note the past two years?

Relax!  You imagine that you'll look bad to the court?  Well, if you were his accountant, maybe.  As his spouse, court almost surely has no basis to frown at you.  He would be Blaming and Blame Shifting.  Court literally doesn't care, well, unless you were doing something really nefarious.  You fear the expected vague allegations "He always..." or "She always..." but the reality is that court may hear the basket of vague claims and then ignore it as ineffectual hearsay.

Sadly, court doesn't care about the mental health status of either parent.  Actionable items are are limited usually to DV, threat of DV and substantive child abuse, neglect or endangerment.  Court usually concerns itself with the remaining issues as documented by presented evidence and then applys the laws, case law, policies and procedures.

Odds are the court process will be horrendous of course but not nearly as bad as you fear.  I recall the time post-divorce when I had Shared Custody and was seeking full custody due to ex's entitlement and disparagement.  At one point the magistrate actually folded his arms and rested his head on his desk.  Maybe it was so we wouldn't see him rolling his eyes or smiling.  That might have been the point where my ex confused the candles of Kwanzaa with Hanukkah and was trying to describe why she wanted to block my end of year vacation by claiming Kwanzaa even though she wasn't of Jewish descent.

[PeteWitsend]

...

The deposition concerns me. H is aggressive and I imagine his L will be as well. He’s had me (and I thought I was holding up my familial responsibility so didn’t question) manage bill payment, which has been ugly. Mostly because he likes vacations/buying extras. Every time I balked he shamed me or intimidated me and I’d try to shuffle bills around. They often snowballed and I’d have to make adjustments. Nothing nefarious, but the constant flux was exhausting and keeping the records clear just wasn’t possible. I fear it’s going to appear I’ve wholly mismanaged.

...

Look... relax! 

I think TV courtroom dramas have created this myth that in every case there will be these "gotcha" moments where a brilliant lawyer tricks the opposing witness or party into admitting something that sinks their whole case... and that just doesn't happen... especially in family law courts.

Every state has divorce regulations and guidelines, and established case law to apply those guidelines to outliers and unique cases.  Your case doesn't sound particularly unique (few are by definition).

There are guidelines for property dissolution, custody, spousal maintenance/alimony, and child support.  These are all based on easily obtainable facts that are tough to dispute: length of marriage, assets on hand, children born & their ages, etc. 

In order to "win" more than the guidelines allow, one party needs to provide admissible evidence of why they should, and the evidence needs to be substantial... think physical or mental abuse (which would likely need 3rd parties - psychologists, police reports & testimony, etc. - in order to prevail), infidelity, financial fraud /intentionally concealing assets, etc.

You paying a couple bills late is not going to matter here; and it begs the question of why your husband - an experienced attorney - would rely on you to pay bills - for years - if he suspected you were doing something untoward here.  It's just not going to be an issue. 

[UBPDHelp]

The MMPI-2 has been often mentioned here over the years, it is a mental health assessment test.  The MMPI-3 ... Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory-3 is the updated version but I don't know how many professionals are using it yet.  Here's one of my recent posts discussing them.

Thank you. I’m in shambles and have responded to his behavior (abuse) poorly. I probably can no longer pass this.

And he’s so charming and has done high conflict divorces, worked with GALs (one he stated in open court couldn’t be relied on and was biased against the  father because she had been abused/raped by her stepfather — something she had confided as professionals working together).  He knows all the tricks.

[UBPDHelp]

Depositions are a two-way street — this is where you and your stbEx have equal rights.  Yes, at some point your ex's lawyer may want to depose you seeking information that would be advantageous to his/her client.  However, you too can have your lawyer depose your stbEx seeking information that would be advantageous to you.

Many lawyers can choose to do much of this information gathering in writing with questionnaires known as interrogatories.  I would add a caution.  Our natural inclination is to be super cooperative, that's who we are as Nice Guys and Nice Gals.  But we all know that these acting-out Personality Disorders (PDs) transform our ex-spouses into the opposite.  How to address that gulf of perceptions and behaviors?

I faced that dilemma twice.  Once when we were both ordered to take Psych Evals.  I did and shared it.  (I had anxiety.)  She never did, or at least I never found out.  Second was when her lawyer sent divorce interrogatories but we were already divorced and back in court for custody issues.  Due to her lawyer never responding, my lawyer got frustrated and sent them our focused list of interrogatories.  My due date came first of course and my lawyer sent some 600 pages I had gathered.  Her due date came and we got "crickets".  That's right, nothing!

From those experiences I told my lawyer we can't expect cooperation and if something like that came up again I instructed him to hold our information and simply communicate, "Our paperwork is ready.  When your paperwork is ready, we can EXCHANGE them."

Oh, do keep a journal but your stbEx does not have a right to browse it.  (Courts will allow you to review it to refresh your memory on details while on the stand but her lawyer can't rifle through it.)  One time I left behind my page-a-day at the dental office and they let her walk out with it.  When I found out, I had to ask her for its return.  Of course she had added snarky comments in it.

Thanks. There is zero nefarious. It’s just I can’t reconstruct that this bill was paid late 3 years ago because on the Tuesday before H decided we needed to take a trip so the bill waited. And then because he missed work, he missed the next check and then snowball of bills being late.

I can’t prove we had discussions about him not paying his grad school loans regularly and about what happens every time he put them in forbearance or refinanced them...they added in the interest and late fees. The balance grew. I can’t prove I told him.

The mortgage has been late for a long time. Took a financial hit just as older two entered college. There was never extra cash to get caught up...but he always got a vacation. This stressed me out. I have no proof we discussed.

The mortgage and student loans (his) are in his name. The house deed is in mine (just not the loan).

Financially a mess. He has told me 1) it makes him feel alive and 2) he doesn’t like me to feel financially stable.

It is what it is.

The only thing maybe a bit nefarious is that I haven’t shared the amount of my inheritance. He has a general idea, does not recognize we’ve used any, but he’s been threatening divorce regularly for nearly a year, I just didn’t offer details and he didn’t ask. I did a post called protective dishonesty about this and general agreement to not give details. Is that a problem?

[kells76]

Just chiming in with a couple of things I've heard.

1: MMPI tests.

AFAIK, these are designed to show if someone is trying to "fool the test" or "look like a great person". There isn't a way to "pass" or "fail" the tests... it's not like "well, you are probably a great person because you picked the right answers". The very structure of the test is less about what someone picks but more how they pick stuff -- I think. Those who have more hands on experience, please chime in. There's a fail safe built in so you can't "trick" the test. OK, sure, it might "show" you have a tendency to anxiety, or stress, or depression. So what if that comes up in a legal setting? "Your honor, I learned from my MMPI that I have a tendency towards depression. I'm proactively working on skills with a counselor so that my children are minimally impacted if at all."

2: depositions.

If someone asks you "do you know what time it is", is your tendency to say "Of course! Here, let me see... um, can't find my phone... OK, here it is, it's 11:00 -- that's a.m., not p.m."

In a deposition -- which could be written from what I recall -- you want to REALLY read/listen to the question. "Do you know what time it is" in a deposition setting is a Yes or No question. This is really different from the "real world" setting where you understand the subtext is "please tell me what time it is".

"Do you know what time it is?" In a deposition: "Yes." that's the full answer.

We never had to go through either oral or written deposition, but knowing that "hack" ahead of time brought me some peace... especially because I was pretty sure the kids' mom and stepdad were NOT going to be able to muzzle themselves, and would "give themselves a LOT of rope".

Overall:

It'll be OK. Lots of new weird situations, tests, legal stuff is getting talked about. Remember livednlearned's ex was a lawyer, too. That isn't a "lock" or a "win". In fact, your H's treating "I'm a lawyer" like some amazing weapon may be his downfall. Deep breaths... learn some new facts, learn some new insights, it'll be OK.

[livednlearned]

The deposition concerns me.

It concerned me too! My ex said he had done thousands of depositions (that's what he told my lawyer at the start of our deposition) and I was beside myself with worry. I didn't sleep the night before. Although I did put together the mother of all binders organizing email documentation (we had months and months of emails at that point) and that helped me prepare for the opposing L's questions.

The thing is, in a deposition you just answer simply. Yes, no. I don't remember. Like ForeverDad said. Less is more.

Opposing L: "Did you spend all your husband's money?"
You: No.
Opposing L: "You had access to all of the bank accounts."
You: Yes.
Opposing L: "Did you prevent your H from having access to bill pay?"
You: No.
Opposing L: "He did not have account information. Why didn't you give him access?"
You: He had the account number. I never understood why he refused to create an account and log in to see the information."

I'm just building off your example -- the Opposing L would probably only focus on management of money if your H said to focus on mismanagement of money. Because honestly, it makes your H look worse than it does you. If your H was concerned about mismanagement of money, it was his job (in the marriage, not in court) to figure out how to manage it better.

The opposing L is trying to figure out how you will come across when/if he/she cross-examined you on a witness stand. It's kind of an opportunity to see if the opposing party is anything like what his client says.

I went first, and my L asked for a bathroom break and she gave me some feedback and I calmed down. My ex, a former trial attorney, was a complete disaster! He contradicted himself, became aggressive toward my L, was not remotely prepared, denied that he wrote emails with foul language toward me, then saw proof of them when my L showed him, which is when he said that I probably had it coming, etc. I could see that his L was disgusted with him, and with the behavior.

I really worry that this is going to make me look bad and he’s going to be like see what she did.  Any suggestions?  Should I start trying to note the past two years?

Your worry that it's going to make you look bad is likely because you're extra conscientious. Court is not likely to care about this stuff as much as you do (or we did). That's why I mentioned earlier that the financial aspect is pretty cut and dry. We tend to negotiate with ourselves when we don't have all the facts -- but you'll start to see a pattern where the psychological concerns begin to split apart from what is actually under the court's purview.

Having said that, by all means document anything that you feel will help build your confidence. I had binders of documentation and created a Google calendar chronology that helped me have facts and memories top of mind. It made me very credible to be able to say, "X happened day/date, and the thing you're discussing occurred after that."

My guess is that your H will prey on what he senses is your fear of his legal advantage. You may end up paying an L a bit more in the beginning asking if you need to be worried about x or y. For me, it took not too long after leaving the marriage that I began to see how ex used his legal background to threaten and intimidate me. It was a lot of hot smoke.

I drafted $35K out of our home equity the day I left. I used half to pay off a loan to my dad, and the other I used as an advance on the financial settlement. And nothing, and I mean nothing, happened in terms of punitive words, much less action. It is not uncommon in divorces for a spouse to empty the house (one member here came home to a house missing the plug protectors on his walls, even the toilet roll holders missing). Nothing was done. No punishment, nothing. It's just money that gets worked out in the settlement, and is a form of leverage if you worry that he won't cover your costs between the day you divorce and the day you get an order entered with the terms worked out.

Courts care more about solutions and getting people off the docket or out of the court room so more serious cases can be heard.

What happened with money in the past, who managed it, how your relationship worked with money, won't matter in court. The question, often unspoken but more important than any other is, "Ok so now what. Where do we go from here?" Who has a solution that is reasonable that the judge can get behind.

[ForeverDad]

At the first hearings the court won't know either of you, so for all it knows you both could be endlessly bickering spouses.  Over time your judge or magistrate ought to notice that you're the reasonable spouse, the one proposing practical solutions as problems arise and not simply complaining or arguing.

Some unpaid bill from 3 years ago?  Judge will shut that down quick.  Most of us learned rather quickly that unless you're trying to demonstrate a pattern of poor behavior, court typically doesn't want to hear anything about issues older than 6 months before the divorce filing date.

Yes, it may matter that your spouse hasn't managed to pay off his college bills but that's on him, not you.  Totally.  He's an adult, or maybe a big kid.  Whatever.  That's going to end up as his debt.

Most of his allegations will be Blaming and Blame Shifting.  As stbEx blathers on, just think of the big bad wolf huffing and puffing yet failing to blow down your sturdy home.  Virtually meaningless in divorce court.  He's spent his entire life honing his manipulation and guilting skills.  As time goes by he will be able to shake your confidence less and less.

So very good that you have clear title to the home's deed.  Life could be a little more complicated if you had to get the court to order him to sign for a sale or do whatever.  Don't feel guilty that the mortgage is in his name only.  As the primary wage earner in the family he has the fiduciary responsibility to keep payments up to date, at least until the divorce is final.  You know you can be responsible as the situation plays out.

[MeandThee29]

At the first hearings the court won't know either of you, so for all it knows you both could be endlessly bickering spouses.  Over time your judge or magistrate ought to notice that you're the reasonable spouse, the one proposing practical solutions as problems arise and not simply complaining or arguing.

Most of his allegations will be Blaming and Blame Shifting.  As stbEx blathers on, just think of the big bad wolf huffing and puffing yet failing to blow down your sturdy home.  Virtually meaningless in divorce court.  He's spent his entire life honing his manipulation and guilting skills.  As time goes by he will be able to shake your confidence less and less.

Also, the attorneys may grasp where the problem is in time as well, and that will change the dynamic if they are communicating. If both attorneys understand and work together as they did in my case, it will go much better. Mine actually settled out of court for that reason with a negotiated agreement, which is rare for these types of cases.

Yes, it was horrible in both the process and closeout, but it was also predictable. I can't count how many times I told the legal professionals "little empathy and little regard for the law." It just was that way. Near the end of closeout, I told my attorney that I was just so frustrated, what else could we do to end it? A contempt motion wasn't a useful option with the court situation. Thankfully his attorney proposed what should have been done all along with the last issue, we did an amendment, and it was done. I don't know what he paid for closeout, but he certainly didn't get his moneys worth out of it. I guess he got the satisfaction of trying to micromanage and delay, which doesn't make sense to me at all.