big picture for kells76

[kells76]

Some "big picture" stuff that's been on my mind... not all directly stepparenting related, but I guess everything is sort of orbiting around that.

Work has been crazy for 3 months now with no end in sight. For (debatable) "safety" reasons we're on separated shifts, so I have to start at 5 a.m. Being tired most the time is definitely a factor in the big picture. Just low energy, low motivation to "go above and beyond" in my relationship with DH and with the kids. I feel like I'm underwater and just surviving, doing the basics, not "doing anything meaningful" or stretching myself -- just wake up, eat, work, go home, do dishes, shower, eat, go to bed. Not reading much these days.

SD14 is in a place of wanting to "talk about all of it" -- the divorce, why we made decisions we did, how she feels, etc. Lots of multiple hour conversations with DH, DH and me, just me, basically almost whenever we're together. It's ultimately good, but exhausting.

SD12 not pulling any direct "I don't want to come over" lately, though we do have a big trip planned for March, and she's asking "how long will it be". I know I should follow up with "anything you're thinking about for the trip, anything you want me to know", but I didn't think of that when she asked, and I just struggle with the long-ingrained fear of "don't ask a question you don't want the answer to", if that makes sense. Like, don't open any doors for the kids to tell you "I don't want to go" -- because I know Mom and Stepdad aren't going to support the kids' time with us.

Even before all that, I've been dealing with strongly mixed feelings about DH and I having a kid of our own (we don't, it's just SD14 & SD12 right now). I knew before we got married that it wouldn't be an easy option (DH was open about him not being able to have more... sometimes you decide after 2 kids to make it permanent), but I was so wrapped up for so many years in the energy it took to stepparent the kids, just the overwhelming stress of it, really needing to be working full time to support our family, and that mid-20s sense of "I'm cool with no kids of our own now, so I will probably always be in this spot, and it doesn't feel like a big deal, so, done!" I could even intellectually get that "well, you don't get everything you want in life, and I can see that you don't need to be a parent in order to have a meaningful life".

It has hit really hard over the last year or so that I do, despite all the craziness in the world and our lives, often really want a kid of our own -- me and DH. Some days I don't (the world is crazy, it would be a lot of work, DH is in his 40s). Other days it hits really hard. I get that at least part of it is biological and out of my direct control, I think (I'm 33). I've talked about it with DH a couple of times. Parenting for him has been incredibly painful and full of grief and loss. So, that part of him isn't super into going through that again, plus it would be expensive to get him "up and running" again, plus not guaranteed to work.

It's getting to feel like "it's now or never" if we were to try for a kid of our own. (For moral and personal reasons, a donor is not an option for us). When I was younger I had no idea I'd feel like this, but here I am now. Sometimes it feels like I'm grieving a lost child, if that makes sense. Our counselor has pointed out that we have given up a lot to parent/stepparent the kids.

It's hard because it's not like "completely impossible" for us to have a kid. It'd be expensive, but it's like "well, if we could at least genuinely try, I'd be ok if it didn't work for us". It's harder when it's a choice, you know -- "we could try to get DH up and running, but we're not going to do that". I almost wish it were actually impossible; then it seems like it'd be easier to grieve and be done. It's also hard because my sister, best friend, sister in law, her 2 sisters in law, a work friend, 2 other friends, a cousin, and probably more people in my life are either pregnant or just had a kid in the last 4 months. Kind of "in my face" right now.

DH & I have talked adoption/fostering, when the kids are older. I go back and forth... I worry that I'd have the same feelings -- that underlying sense of "I love you, I do... but I still feel a loss". Other times I feel like it would be really special to raise a kid with DH, however that happens.

Not every day is painful; there are definitely times when I'm kind of glad we don't have a kid of our own. Other days it feels like our child has died before even being born. There is a deeply emotional part of my mind that is telling me, as a way to manage, that "hey, maybe after you die and "go to heaven" [or whatever], the kids you could never have will be there too". I am both embarrassed at how irrational and not grounded in reality that is, and at the same time that drive is so deep and strong that part of my mind is saying "yes, that's how it works, so you don't have to grieve, just have some hope and wait". I don't think I consciously created that "coping story" and it has no coherence with my actual worldview... but there it is.

I also still struggle with sometimes feeling guilty when we don't have the kids, or dreading when we do. I get that part of it is tiredness, and I suspect another part is years and years of there always being some stressful issue (indirectly from Mom/Stepdad, via the kids) around our parenting time. It's like a reaction now right before our weekends: "What am I going to find when I get home from work on Friday". Getting better in a lot of ways -- I remember a couple of times I would go home and sleep when DH had the kids -- but still there, and complicated by the feeling of "would I feel this way if it were MY kid".

I don't know if anyone else has been here... but this is what I'm struggling with.

[worriedStepmom]

Kells, I'm sorry that you have so much on your plate right now.  I am sending you hugs.   

I absolutely understand your feelings about having a baby.  I've been there twice, and I made two different decisions.

My H and I made a conscious decision not to have a child together, since we came to our marriage with 3 kids between us and I had a lot of health reasons not to have another.  It was a VERY hard decision for me - my goodness, I wanted his baby, wanted to have that experience with him.

I have definitely grieved that loss - and it IS a loss.  The loss of a dream, of a way to connect with and bond to my husband, of a little piece of me.  It's been 7 years, and even though I'm confident it was the right decision for us, sometimes I still get sad for the baby we might have made together. 

On the other hand, in my first marriage we had originally said we'd have kids, and then my H changed his mind.  My biological clock went absolutely fricking haywire when I was 27.  I wanted a baby so badly that after months of fighting I gave him an ultimatum - child or divorce.  He gave in and adores our kids but never fully forgave me for that.

When we actually divorced years later, I planned to stay single and eventually adopt a child.  I got a bonus kid instead, and I consider her mine just as much as the others.  I've actually had a moment where I held crying SD and my heart growled "MINE".  Note that in our family, she turns away from her uBPDmom and I fill that role for her; I know your girls feel more torn.

I put all this out there to tell you that you are not alone.  Any decision you make can be the right one, and any decision can bring complicated emotions you'll have to process.

[CoherentMoose]

Hello Kells.  It is an interesting time for sure.  Wow, quite the place you find yourself at.  Some data points for you.  I had a friend "reverse" his and they now have two children.  I've seen research that indicates children born to "older" parents do very well.  Surprisingly well in fact.  Whatever you two decide, good luck...and I'm hoping you decide to try... jdc

[GaGrl]

These are indeed "big picture" -- really big life -- questions and views. Hugs 

I never thought I needed children...til the biological clock alarm not me at about age 28. Then three years after, my marriage dissolved, and I made a decision with a subsequent partner not to have any more children-- I was high-risk after going into labor at 29 weeks and spending the rest of the pregnancy in hospital and bed rest. Otherwise, I would have tried for another, and I do regret that my son is an only child -- mostly because I think he regretted it.

It is a difficult decision. I hear you saying that a try could be worth it!

Where is your husband on this right now?

[mpacific]

I always gravitate towards your posts because they are full of insight and I find myself able to relate (whether good or bad!)

I had no idea I would feel this strongly to have another child with DH either! My girls are 21, 18 and his is 5. I'm 7 years older and if there's any tick left; it's minimal. I'm okay with my age and I love family, love being a mom. I feel an insane urge of having an "ours" and I could not put my finger on it but you are so right, it's a grieving process if we don't.  I've poured my heart out to DH with minimal response. I know he'd be on board if I truly want that but I want to hear it from him that it's what he wants - otherwise that's a recipe for disaster.  His first experience was so awful and he made a comment that we have so much financial stuff (no we have your legal bills from your insane ex otherwise we are debt free) so I feel more anger towards her that again she has control in my life or if he's using it as an excuse. I wish he'd communicate a true why and maybe I'll never get that but I'm struggling being at peace with us never having that experience of our own family. Raising a kiddo together, being a team. 

I only share because I am there with you, walking similar shoes. But I want to commend you, you are amazing with your SD's and I admire your strength. If you're tired, take time for you because everyone wins then.

[Baglady]

Hi Kells,

Not really sure what to add.  I have one child and I thought long and hard about having him because on some subconscious level I knew there was something off about my exBPDh.  I didn't want to stress him out anymore than he was by life with one. 

Throughout my horrific divorce, it was my son that absolutely kept me going during the darkest of days.  I really wish he had a sibling now (he's fine not having one) but I know that my marriage would likely have hit the wall a lot sooner and my son wouldn't have the same quality of life that he now has (financially it would be so much more difficult for me with two).

I do want to say though that you are an absolutely terrific stepmother!  Your SD's are so lucky to have you in their lives and I think you will immeasurably improve the trajectory of their lives just by your presence.   You definitely have what it takes to nurture and care for a child.

Warmly,
B.

[mama-wolf]

Hi kells...I just had to drop in.  You have been so supportive here, and I recognize that there is so much going on in your life...it makes me that much more grateful for the time you have taken to offer encouraging words to me.

It's hard because it's not like "completely impossible" for us to have a kid. It'd be expensive, but it's like "well, if we could at least genuinely try, I'd be ok if it didn't work for us". It's harder when it's a choice, you know -- "we could try to get DH up and running, but we're not going to do that". I almost wish it were actually impossible; then it seems like it'd be easier to grieve and be done. It's also hard because my sister, best friend, sister in law, her 2 sisters in law, a work friend, 2 other friends, a cousin, and probably more people in my life are either pregnant or just had a kid in the last 4 months. Kind of "in my face" right now.

Sending you big, big hugs!  I can imagine how difficult it is especially to see so many around you having kids around the eame time, especially given what you have said about your journey.  I know it's a very tough decision to make as a couple to move forward--or not--and I really hope things turn out for you.

Based on what you have shared, I have a sense of how complicated, draining, and uncertain the whole parenting topic is for you.  I just wanted to offer some additional support from me, too...

mw

[ForeverDad]

You know part of my story, I had a dysfunctional spouse, I foolishly thought if we had a child (after a decade of marriage) that she'd be less distressed and enjoy watching a child discover life.  Oops, doesn't happen when there are serious problems with the marriage and an acting out PD is starting to show itself.

Anyway... when pregnancy didn't happen we were referred to a reproductive clinic.  Both of us were tested.  Hers was a Hysterosalpingogram (HSG) where gas was pumped in to verify the Fallopian tubes were open.  Very painful for her.

A month passed.  Mere hours after we picked up the next step, drugs to inject to increase fertility, she did a home test and we found out she was pregnant.  With the drugs already issued from the pharmacy, non-returnable, we donated them to the reproductive clinic.

After all this time, how did she get pregnant then?  The nurse smiled and said about 1/3 of their patients seeking pregnancy get pregnant after the HSG procedure.  Evidently the procedure opens up the pathway for the eggs to travel better.  The nurse said one patient returned for the procedure every time she was ready to have another baby.  They just didn't want to get our hopes up if nothing happened.

Disclaimer:  I don't know everything about everything nor everything about something.  However, I do try to know something about everything.

[Notwendy]

Hi Kells,

You have been so insightful and supportive on other threads and in the relationship board.

We talk a lot on that board about being authentic, and true to ourselves. As you know, many partners on that board have given up parts of themselves to maintain the peace in the relationship and so are dealing with loss and resentment.

I'm not going to tell you what to do (try to have a child or not), but encourage you to think deeply about what you want, based on you, not others for the moment- not the kids, not your H. What do you want?

Of course, this is not a unilateral decision. Your H's feelings and wishes are important too and he has to be a participant in this. Looking at your situations though, there are some differences. He is older than you, and has children. You were young when you got married. I think it is possible to feel differently about having children in your 20's than in your 30's or older.  In our 20's, there's plenty of time, and I don't think the decision feels urgent. It can feel differently later when approaching that time when getting pregnant might become difficult.

Your H surely loves you but also can't share the feeling of "not ever having a biological child" because, he is not in the same situation. While of course it's important to respect his feelings, I think it's also important to recognize that the decision to not have children could impact each of you in different ways.

When to try to have one? Yes, consider the circumstances in general- is it affordable, could you emotionally handle it? But also consider that - the "perfect" non-busy time may not appear. There's usually something going on- work, school, older siblings.

This may take some time for you to process your feelings and wishes. Individual counseling - someone who has experience counseling about this, to hear you out and if you do decide to proceed, maybe someone to help facilitate the communications between you and your H. This is a decision that has a time limit, but it's also one that the two of you together will face over your ( hopefully very long and happy) lives together.

You give so much to the girls, to your family, to this board. I encourage you to give that thinking and contemplating to yourself as well.

[livednlearned]

Sometimes it feels like I'm grieving a lost child

Other days it feels like our child has died before even being born.

This. Oof.

I feel this way, too, kells76, and the only thing that dulls the pain is knowing definitively that it was never possible to have a child with H (I felt it was too late for me). I see healthy friends joyfully raising their kids, doing stuff together and in sync, supporting each other and being on the same page, and I can feel a deep hollow of grief knowing that we never got to experience that. We've raised 4 kids but we don't know what it's like to love and raise our own child, together. And I know with H that we would've had an amazing experience doing that.

I've even felt something like guilt or betrayal knowing how much I would love this (not-possible) child who would have had two healthy loving parents. I have wondered if I would have to hide the love I felt toward this child so my first born didn't feel so deeply how he got the short end of the stick.

I also used to feel grief about the second child I never had, a decision I made when I realized it would take everything I had to raise S18 given the kind of dad he had. I know deep in my heart I was meant to have more than one child, and S18 was meant to have a sibling. I feel it less now because it's been 15 years of grieving, but it is still grief, even while knowing how hard it would've been to get two kids through the kind of divorce we had.

I'm glad you shared what you're going through and thinking about, and the things you're working through do seem all bound up in the complexity of your family's dynamics and how it affects the way you think about having a child.  

I'm also glad you're focusing on you, and what you need.

One thing H and I used to do when we first met and (I) wanted to slow things down was to park certain conversations in a zone we called "future speak." Without it, for example, I couldn't talk about living together. Future speak was more for me because I doubted whether I had the strength to merge my life completely with someone else again after what I had been through with S18's dad. Or any man, for that matter.

But we needed to give ourselves a place to imagine our lives together. It allowed me to hear what H was thinking while I sort of pumped the brakes.

It's a bit irrational, but by announcing "future speak," I felt like we could discuss things in a less emotionally charged way. We could talk about what kind of things were most important in a house, for example, without the additional baggage of discussing logistics (like timing a move, dealing with leases or sale of houses, how our kids would react, how our exes would react, etc.) on how we would go about living together.

As part of future speak, we even had a fun time looking at floor plans for houses. Then we went to go look at a house or two. Then we got a realtor. This was all happening as part of this thing that I didn't feel I was committed too. I could back out any second.

Then one day something kind of popped into focus for me when we were looking at one house in particular and I saw how it could be possible to do this thing that seemed so awkward and hard and scary and uncertain. It was a house where I could imagine the positive side of anything difficult that might come our way.

I don't know if that could be adapted to what you're going through, but I do think that the exhaustion and stress you feel probably makes it hard to imagine what is joyful about this future you're trying to imagine for yourself.

Maybe there is a similar kind of exercise where you and H can imagine for yourselves what it would be like to parent, just the two of you.

[kells76]

Thank you, all of you, for your thoughtfulness and for caring about me. I was tearing up reading all your responses.

Notwendy, you were asking what I want -- if it's just me, not thinking of what other people want. I guess I either don't know yet, or I do know but am putting up a block so I "won't" know, or it's a "both-and" where I want both options at the same time. Both states of wanting (i.e., wanting to have a kid with DH, and not wanting to) seem to be existing at once at equal intensity.

We had MC the other day, and DH was grieving how he sees how capable and bright the girls are, how much potential they have, but the potential is being twisted and not given a healthy trajectory or path. He is grieving what he wanted for the kids, for the kids he could have had. So we are sort of in the same place, where the perversion (in a "twisting" sense, not a "disgusting" sense) of the divorce has... sickened, I guess, or stunted, what could have been, if that makes sense. That we are both grieving the kids we could have had.

Even a few months ago, money was tighter, but some changes have happened recently where the cost would be less of an issue. It's like everything is getting swept off the table except for my decision, my responsibility. It's not "oh, it's too expensive, so that's why we can't". All that's left is "what do I want" and "what will I choose", and even letting the clock run out is a choice. I feel myself "being positioned" in life to be in a place where I'm the only one shouldering the responsibility for having a kid or not -- I think DH is not 100% opposed, so if I were determined/insistent, I think he would go for it -- so that means it is only my responsibility.

And that's something I've struggled with in the past; I guess everyone does to some degree -- I want "things to happen to me", and then "it's not my fault", versus taking responsibility and agency for choices in my life, and bearing the burden of the outcome.  If we don't have a kid together, it will either be because "I did not want to", or because "I wanted to and chose not to". And there's this feeling of "And how will I live with having made that choice?" Not in a "I want to die" way, but "how will I make it day by day carrying that decision".

I also feel a guilty sense of relief that while not impossible, it WOULD be difficult to have a child. The world is so crazy, and so full of deceit and lies, that it's like I have an "excuse" to not go down that un-guaranteed path. And I don't know if I could handle playing a part in bringing a third child into DH's life and then seeing that child reject him, us, anything of value... you know, if the dice rolled a certain way, because it's not guaranteed that if we had kids, they would be healthy, sane, loving, all that.

But that's still framing "what I want" in terms of another person: "I don't want to add to DH's pain". It's true, but not looking at what I want alone.

I guess what I do find myself thinking over and over, which is probably a clue about what to do or what I want, is... and I'm sorry if this sounds sick or weird, but this is how my brain is trying to make sense of things... it's like... so I had a cousin whose first child died right after birth -- Baby EJ was only alive for a few hours. And what my brain is constructing is that "well, you would share the joy of those hours, and remember the gift, and then you would not have the pain of seeing a child turn against you, reject you later". And I'm saying this not to minimize the pain of anyone who has truly lost a child. I do not know what that is like. I think I'm saying this because I want people here in this group to feel like they can share whatever is on their mind, even if it "isn't OK" or "people shouldn't think that" or "that's messed up". But I think I need to talk about that here because it should be a  that THAT's how my mind is trying to make sense of what to do. And I need to figure that out.

It's like my mind is trying to come up with ways to both have a child with DH, but to "insulate" us -- him -- from potential pain on the scale of what he has experienced so far.

I'm not sure yet if DH and I could try the "what if we were to parent together, what would it be like" exercise. Right now it feels like it would hurt -- that it might have a "covering" of neutrality but it would feel pretty raw.

So I guess I've processed a little, in that now I'm seeing that as my mind works out "what do I want", something's going on where all the "outcomes" involve grieving for the child we could have had: i.e., not having a kid at all, having one who passes away, or having one who grows up but rejects us. All involve us in pain for the child who could have been.

It feels like an impossibly unattainable fantasy that DH and I could have a child of our own who loves us.

[formflier]

kells76

Lots of openness here.  Bravo!

I'm going to ask some additional questions.

Are you grieving not having a child together or not trying for a child together? Or both?

Or being "open to the possibility" of a child together?

Best,

FF

[kells76]

Hey FF, good to hear from you!

I am grieving not trying for a child together with DH. Part of my worldview is that it would be up to God whether or not we "succeeded", and the way my mind is constructing things right now, I feel like I'd be more OK if we got DH replumbed, tried, and "failed", versus never tried at all.

And even as I type this, I can see that for whatever reason, God wants me to be "not sure what to do" right now. Like, THAT's the suffering he wants me to be in, versus the suffering of not having a child with DH -- if all that makes sense.

So, >90% grieving not trying for a child, <10% grieving not having one together. Sort of an order of operations thing, maybe.

[worriedStepmom]

I feel like I'd be more OK if we got DH replumbed, tried, and "failed", versus never tried at all.

Absolutely a normal way to feel!  My ex and I could not decide whether to have a second child.  I wanted one; he didn't.  After talking it out for months, he sort of almost wanted one and I sort of almost didn't.  So we decided to roll the dice.  We'd get rid of birth control for 3 months and see what happened.  At that point, we both would have been comfortable with whichever outcome, but we would not have been comfortable not trying at all.  Which makes no logical sense, but that's the way two exceptionally analytical people felt anyway. 

We had a boy.  He is HARD - he has anxiety and he's the most stubborn person I know (and I'm Cajun!) and he's gifted and socially backward.  But he is mine.

I totally understand your fear that a child would reject you - that's what you've seen over the years.  But with the two of you as parents working in tandem, what are the real odds that would happen?  Sometimes we have to look closely at our fears and see if they are realistic or not.

[Notwendy]

It's like my mind is trying to come up with ways to both have a child with DH, but to "insulate" us -- him -- from potential pain on the scale of what he has experienced so far.


Kells, this statement stood out to me.

Having a child involves uncertainty, joy, along with stress.  So here is the blunt question- are you avoiding pursuing what you want due to trying to spare your H's feelings?

To be more distinct- respecting our spouses feelings is not the same as diminishing an aspect of ourselves in order to "spare" their feelings. That steps into that boundary of managing their feelings.

I think this statement is important:

I am grieving not trying for a child together with DH. Part of my worldview is that it would be up to God whether or not we "succeeded", and the way my mind is constructing things right now, I feel like I'd be more OK if we got DH replumbed, tried, and "failed", versus never tried at all.

Kells, if this is what you want, then I think it's important to be honest with your H.


-- if it's just me, not thinking of what other people want.

This isn't easy. I think as a caring wife and mom, we tend to think of what our family wants and needs first, but it's also a balance.

I don't want to read too much into this, but also will share that I have co-dependent tendencies- I tend to put others first. Some of this is important with parenthood, but I took it too far- I diminished who I was in order to not upset others or keep them happy.

As a result, over time, I became unhappy, and also resentful. I also didn't know who I was as I didn't pay attention to that, and tried to be what others wanted me to be.

I don't want that for you, but I am trying to get you to pay attention to YOU. That voice inside of you, when it isn't distracted by the needs of your family.

And then urge you to be true to you. And be brave about speaking to your H if you truly want to try for a child with him. If he agrees- then he also takes his part of that responsibility. And yes, trying also means uncertainty- humans can try- and the rest is up to God.

[formflier]

So, perhaps a point of clarification.

Instead of asking if your hubby is ok with "having" a child, have you asked if he is ok "trying" and it not working.

This is an interesting post, because you are working lots of stuff out.  You guys know me, I try to "boil stuff down" and after a brief scan of things again, I'm wondering if the real question is

"Do you want to try for a child?

Have you answered that question clearly and let all other considerations be secondary.

Best,

FF

[SamwizeGamgee]

Hi Kells,

You have been doing some deep soul-searching and it shows.  It takes a lot to get to your level. Being able to know what you feel, and then go on to understand the why of it, is a great level to achieve.

As a guy, I won't get the biological clock feeling for myself. I think.  So, I look at it more like if I could get into a healthy relationship in life 2.0 (post divorce and recovery) would I want another kid?  

My answer is that I've changed above my share of diapers, cleaned up the messes, lost sleep, had my heart drop every time a toddler toddles, and so forth.  And, I ask if I want to be on call as a dad to another kid, for another 18 years.   I say no ;)  Maybe grandparenting in the far distant future would be okay.  ;)

I also understand maybe what you are thinking about H going through the risk of losing a child to rejection or alienation.  I am frozen in my tracks with that kind of thought.  I have been rejected fully by my second of five kids (D19) and it's like she's died to me, but I got no funeral, no grave to visit, no sympathy, no closure. Instead I got blamed.  

Fortunately, she is not truly dead, and there is always hope and always the future. But, I understand the feeling of being so hurt, and broken by that, so as to not want to be exposed to that loss again. I'm there. No more kids for no more heartbreaking opportunities.

Now,  although I am at the front end of divorce, and there is not even the thought, much less prospects, for a future healthy adult relationship for me, I sometimes imagine what that would be like.  And, that does bring up the question about what if I developed a healthy relationship, and got to the point of wanting a child with her.  I can actually understand that feeling.  I 'm the kind of person that accepts failure just fine, and comes back around to try again.  So, I would like to have a happy relationship, marriage, and family.  I don't want to leave life in my present condition or mindset.  In this sense, I think I am in a common mindset with you.  Wanting to make something better.  Wanting to have a child you love, with someone you love. I know I could have what it takes to be happy and be healthy.  So, if I see hope for my future, I see it for yours too.  Your H has to find his answer, and I get it if he would chose not to risk it, so to speak.  The feelings PA creates are very deep, and devastating.

I'm sending you lots of virtual hugs, love, and understanding (although from a guy point of view).

Aside:
FWIW, call it an innate belief, but, I believe in eternal increase.  As in, I do believe that in eternity, we keep perfecting.  And I think we will have joy with our family and our children, that, I don't know, we should have had on Earth. (?)
Why else learn all these lessons about "if I could do it again" if they don't mean anything?
I'll pick a better bride, and be a better husband and dad for sure ;)

[livednlearned]

Are you possibly afraid of feeling joy?

You know how to handle pain. That's pretty clear from what you and H have been through.

Maybe there is real fear that doing ________ will require a kind of vulnerability that is more uncomfortable than soldiering through hardship?

[kells76]

I totally understand your fear that a child would reject you - that's what you've seen over the years.  But with the two of you as parents working in tandem, what are the real odds that would happen?  Sometimes we have to look closely at our fears and see if they are realistic or not.

This ties in to the spiritual side for me. As much as I do the math and come up with, say, a 2.3% chance of hurtful rejection vs 97.7% chance of warm, loving family experience, it comes back to "it's God's prerogative to give me in life what he thinks I need". So this part of my struggle is ultimately between me and God, I guess. Does he have the right to give us 3 kids in a row who all reject us (I'm saying this hyperbolically, as SD12 & SD14 are more "conflicted" vs "rejecting" right now)? On paper, I can say, of course he does. In life, it feels like I'm not sure I have what it takes to open the door to invite in more hurt, rejection, and conflict.

...

So here is the blunt question- are you avoiding pursuing what you want due to trying to spare your H's feelings?

Two parts to this. One, yes, because I love him and don't want him to be in pain, that slows me down from pursuing having a kid. Two, "sort of", because a running theme in my life has been "I have to make sure other people are doing OK and not in pain, because if other people are in pain, then they can't take care of me." I get that this worked for me as a child and is not healthy now. Yet it's operating; I sense its undercurrent. I've felt this dynamic coming from me towards DH before.

...

I'm wondering if the real question is "Do you want to try for a child?

I think this is tied to WSM's comment on "what are the odds".  I talked some with DH the other day about me feeling conflicted, and just talked about how part of me was drawn to "hey, let's do foster care" and I recognized it's because you don't "have to" get as close to a child -- if you know what I mean. So, I told him that I was feeling like I do have love I want to give to a child that is somehow a "just our project" kid, and yet I recognize that I am afraid of getting too close, and so I come up with options to share that love but "feel safe" from rejection. I see that I'm trying to manage how much potential pain enters our lives.
Maybe the math of "do you want to try for a child" is more "1% possibility of pain" if it doesn't work out and "99% possibility of pain" if it does. And maybe I'm painting these other options to myself (being a foster parent, e.g.) as, say, "70% chance of pain" -- it'll probably have its moments, but how could anything be worse than what we've already been through?

...

I think we will have joy with our family and our children, that, I don't know, we should have had on Earth. (?)

That's where DH is at right now... he hopes that there will be some kind of "redemption", as it were, of what parenting could be, because on earth parenting and childraising seems to be the source of so much pain, bitterness, and division.
I've also in my mind gone through some "maybe in the hereafter" constructions. I think it is to manage the possibility of loss here (loss of being able to have a kid with DH) -- I mentioned it above, and I repeat it here with the caveat that if you looked at my "on paper" beliefs it is not coherent at all (I don't believe that "heaven is where God gives me stuff I want". That being said, I have hoped that "in heaven" I could at least see the kids I could have had. My mind is working hard to help me with this sense of loss.

...

Are you possibly afraid of feeling joy?

Yes. Another running theme in my life has been "it's safer not to feel too happy; after all, it won't last, and the pain of losing the happiness overwhelms whatever happiness it was". My thoughts have been: pain has been comfortable and familiar. At least there are no surprises in pain. You'd better be careful if you feel happy... tone it down so that the "fall" afterwards isn't so bad.

Maybe there is real fear that doing ________ will require a kind of vulnerability that is more uncomfortable than soldiering through hardship?

What I instantly think is that "it's just a matter of time before the other shoe drops". I fear that having a kid with DH would be forever shadowed by a sense that "trauma and loss are just around the corner".

This may be why another, admittedly dysfunctional, but I will say real construction my mind has come up with is "it would be OK to have a kid with DH, and then for that child to die young". I tell myself that I could handle that pain better than the prolonged trauma of rejection.

...

Summary so far:

The biological urge is really strong. I also picture the warmth and joy of DH and I working on a "just us" family, without chaotic, dysfunctional, intrusive manipulations.

I try to "manage" what doors I open for God to bring pain into my life (even as I write this, I GET how impossible it is to manage... but there it is)

I slow down the urgency of having a kid with DH not only because on the surface I want to spare him the pain, but because underneath that I want to spare ME the pain and loneliness of him being in pain.

I find it hard to imagine feeling joyful, unadulterated or untainted by "getting ready for the blow that's coming".

[Turkish]

It's like my mind is trying to come up with ways to both have a child with DH, but to "insulate" us -- him -- from potential pain on the scale of what he has experienced so far.

Likely that won't happen since you aren't BPD.

I'm not a woman, and not a step parent, but I am adopted and the comment made about only children triggered a pain of mine, that I was an only child. Your baby will have siblings.

It feels like an impossibly unattainable fantasy that DH and I could have a child of our own who loves us.

As one of my Aspie like buddies once said, "kids love their parents because they don't know any better."

Your reply to LnL's question is honest. I felt similarly for years, loving children in general but not wanting my own, and thus I ended up an older dad.  I still kind of feel that way but it has nothing to do with the kids. They rely on my.  S10 the other day said he appreciated how I took care of them, apropos of nothing.  He's a sweet guy. Even at 10.5 he still loves it when I cuddle him. 

The personality of a child is his or her own though family has a strong influence on where those traits lead. Pain is unavoidable, but that's life. My kids experienced a lot of pain after their mom left. I was out on the lawn as then S8 was sprinting across the street to play with his friend and I screamed STOP, as a car roared by. He did and he did come close to being hit.

We've struggled a bit with S10 who is ASD1 (Aspie), and D8 who has had an attitude we first observed at 1. Her brother told me she hit the dog this weekend. She was angry and tried to hit him for Narcing, I had to send her to her room where she kicked the bed for almost half an hour.  Kids...

Yet at 5AM at first light, she came to cuddle with me until we got up and the previous day was forgiven by both of us. 

As an adopted kid who was given up by my parents and then my birth mother's parents (she was also adopted) I still am sometimes amazed that I have kids of my own. Despite the typical drama "I hate you!" Later followed by "I didn't really mean that, I was just angry, I love you," I wouldn't have it any other way.

This is my life and I chose it. Children are a blessing, but or bonus family or whatever.  Patenting is also a powerful responsibility, but that's life. Realizing that puts one ahead of many who merely "phone it in."

You and your DH have each other to do it better and to be better, with lessons learned.

I try not to lay too much on the kids like my BPD mom did to me, but I've told them a few times that one of my goals as a parent is to enable them to be better than me.  I like to think that I've worked to cut off most of my baggage,  and even though I'm not the biggest fan of their mom, I see that she tries as well. 

You and DH have the gift of awareness and foresight, yes? O think that is powerful. Combined with love, that will make you a great mother, as you are already a great step-mother. You do deserve to be happy, as do we all.   

[formflier]

You and DH have the gift of awareness and foresight, yes?  

So...at 20 some year of FF thought that he was going to "mold" his kids..that he would have a lot of influence on their personality and who/what they turned into.

I now chuckle at myself and I'm firmly in the "nature over nuture" camp.  

Now that I have several adult kids, they are all they way they were as babies and little children. (relaxed, strident, outgoing..etc etc)  

I do think that really bad parenting can send kids off in a bad direction...but awareness and foresight is the antidote.  

You don't have to be a perfect parent

Switching gears:  I'm firmly in the camp of letting God sort this kind of thing out.  Practically speaking, remove birth control and let whatever is going to happen...happen.

An interesting factoid.  Not once have we had a pregnancy where the timing went as planned.  After the first couple we stopped trying to influence it.

We assumed that it would take 6-8 months (based on our friends experiences) to get pregnant after our wedding and my wife had one period and then got pregnant.

Several other times we tried to get pregnant at certain times and never once...never did that happen.

Hope some of this helps.  

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

I understand your H has some grief and trauma from his first marriage and the parental alienation but the children are still relatively young.

While I recognize that teen behavior is less severe than PA, many teens go through their normal separation by opposing their parents in some way.

I will admit that there were times my teen age kids had me in tears- and they were really good kids overall. But they did plenty of "pushing me away" - rejection of mom- as a normal part of becoming their own person.

I also have my own fears related to my own teen age years with BPD mom and these times were really difficult as I feared they would feel like I felt as teens about me, and I really didn't want my kids to feel that way.

But I don't have BPD and they don't feel that way. We did get throught the teen years and they don't feel the need to "push" away like they did before.

You don't know the future of your H's relationship with his children or how that will turn out, but teens do mature in time. It's also not possible to predict a relationship with a future child, but the two of you are loving parents and in general that leads to a loving relationship with a child.

[formflier]

but the two of you are loving parents and in general that leads to a loving relationship with a child.

This is where your insight and thoughtfulness about relationships is key, because you can understand there are many different ways to express "a loving relationship".

I continue to be pleasantly surprised at how different my relationship is with each of my children, yet all of them are really enjoyable.

Oh...and let me give a "ditto" to the teen behavior thing.  You would think that once you get to your fifth teenager that you would be leaning back and yawning, since you have seen it all..(Oh...FF has some crazy ideas...)

D15 has been "interesting" over the past year,  and my wife and I have switched several things up on the parenting front.  So far seems to be working.

Once she realized the smart phone was gone and the flip phone was her only option...that was priceless.

Best,

FF

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

My family experience with parenting is interesting. Both my parents were only children -- so I have no aunts, uncles, first cousins. Fortunately, I had enough great-aunts and great-uncles, second cousins to fill the void. I'm now the only surviving child, but I did have a sibling til adulthood.

My mother's mother died in her second pregnancy, at 26 years old. My mother was four. Two years later, my grandfather remarried an 18-year-old woman who was uBPD/NPD. While she took care of my mother's physical needs, she was emotionally and verbally abusive, neglectful, and inserted herself in the relationship between my mother and her father. She never had a child herself.

As a result, my mother observed certain behaviors and "rules" or parenting approaches, and she would say to herself, " When I have a family, I won't do X, or I will do XYZ this way. " When my mother told me this, at first I was so sad for her. Then I realized...

In spite of a sad and emotionally bereft childhood, my mother had the resilience and fortitude to CREATE HERSELF AS A PARENT.

This was huge for me. It helped me understand and move past her few BPD traits and appreciate her parenting and my childhood.

Bottom line -- we all have a well of parenting capacity to draw upon.

[Grady]

I went through years of fertility treatments to have my three D's.  We started with all the testing and went through the least invasive all the way through IVF.  It was really hard and stressful on both of us at the time (without the financial aspect...we were fortunate that insurance covered a lot even though it still cost quite a bit).  But, that was really our only focus and stress at the time.  So, as awful and disappointing as it was to have failed months, we didn't have other life struggles on top of other things.  I think that definitely helped. 

The urge to have children kept us going.  I'm not sure exactly what I'm trying to share here except this...the stress will be high, but if you make the decision to go for it, it will be worth it.  You have to be all in.  It's actually crazy that I forgot about all the struggles and pain and suffering until I'm reminded.  I completely forgot I had the HSG procedure (which was definitely not pleasant) until I read ForeverDad mention it. 

For me, one of the things that hurts the most with OW was that she was able to get pregnant so easily with SS.  My H kept on saying over and over again that he never thought it would actually happen since we always had such a hard time that he was stupid with precautions even though he knew she was trying to trap him. 

[Turkish]

In spite of a sad and emotionally bereft childhood, my mother had the resilience and fortitude to CREATE HERSELF AS A PARENT.

The couples' therapist my ex abandoned me to observed something like this about me: "since you never had a father, how do you know how to be one?" I shrugged and he said, "so you're 'inventing'." Works for me.  Initially, I had a fantasy about the kids calling me "Sir" but you can guess where that went...

FF D8 is a spitfire. If we tell her to brush her teeth or hair she pulls this, "it's MY life and I can do what I want!" I reply that until she's 18, that's not entirely true and if you don't, I will and I guarantee that you won't like it." "FINE!"

I'm dreading puberty...

[GaGrl]

The couples' therapist my ex abandoned me to observed something like this about me: "since you never had a father, how do you know how to be one?" I shrugged and he said, "so you're 'inventing'." Works for me.  Initially, I had a fantasy about the kids calling me "Sir" but you can guess where that went...

FF D8 is a spitfire. If we tell her to brush her teeth or hair she pulls this, "it's MY life and I can do what I want!" I reply that until she's 18, that's not entirely true and if you don't, I will and I guarantee that you won't like it." "FINE!"

I'm dreading puberty...

OMG, you are so in for it (and I say that with the most sincere hope for the best).

I asked both my parents for forgiveness for the year I was 15 years old.

[Notwendy]

Kells, you have said some things that resonate with me. The idea of happiness-not staying too comfortable in it, because the other shoe might drop- and also needing to be sure everyone around you is happy, and also the idea of mitigating your H's pain.

I have read a lot of books on marriage, to try to unravel some issues in mine. One aspect that interested me is how our families of origin influence our thinking in general and also our choice of partners. tend to fit with our FOO patterns. The patterns in the family we grew up in are our "normal"- they feel familiar to us and so we pair with people who fit our pattern in some way.


One doesn't have to be dysfunctional to repeat family patterns. I don't have BPD even though I was raised by a pwBPD- but I did learn the family patterns-they were taught in my family and I can potentially bring these patterns into a relationship. So neither you or your H can be "dysfunctional" but still- looking at the patterns might be helpful to you and also where you learned them.

One that I had to examine was my tendency to take responsibility for other people's comfort and happiness and  have them not feel discomfort. If someone was feeling bad- then I felt I had to deny my own feelings or happiness to somehow not add to their dyscomfort. Like I wasn't deserving of my H's time or attention because he had a stressful job. I grew up not daring to ask my BPD mother for anything- and I felt like a burden to my parents and didn't want to be one to my H.

It took me a while to see that this was, in a sense, enabling. If I took on the responsibility for other people's feelings, I was keeping them from learning to manage them.

Not allowing myself to be happy if someone else wasn't- was a sense of not deserving. I understand the idea to not be demanding or entitled, but undeserving goes in the other direction.

A wise MC helped me to see that two opposites were both dysfunctional. I didn't want to be like my demanding and seemingly entitled BPD mother, so I went to the other side and didn't stand up for myself or what I wanted.

Your H went through a difficult marriage and has some trauma from his relationship with his children. But your marriage- that's not the same situation. What patterns are you both in that might be worth working on?  We can't change anyone but ourselves, but looking at your patterns might create some positive changes in the dynamics between you two.

[livednlearned]

it feels like I'm not sure I have what it takes to open the door to invite in more hurt, rejection, and conflict

Is this true? You have a lot going on right now, including the pressure you're feeling to make a big decision. Maybe you mean that right now you feel you're at capacity? You strike me as someone with tremendous capacity to grow and learn and move forward.

When you experienced your ED as a teen and gave up the need for control and certainty, what followed?

It seems connected to this self-awareness:

I see that I'm trying to manage how much potential pain enters our lives

[kells76]

Your H went through a difficult marriage and has some trauma from his relationship with his children. But your marriage- that's not the same situation.

I'm starting to wonder if I also have trauma from stepparenting.

What patterns are you both in that might be worth working on?  We can't change anyone but ourselves, but looking at your patterns might create some positive changes in the dynamics between you two.

I'll need to think more about this.

One basic pattern between us is in high conflict (or what I perceive/experience as high conflict) I shut down and withdraw, and DH wants to verbally engage and feels lonely when I withdraw. I feel cornered and can have a traumatic response when he verbally engages. He feels rejected and then leaves, and I experience that as "he doesn't care about me when I feel traumatized".

That hasn't happened at a level 8-10 for a long time (maybe years), but I have noticed myself withdrawing to a milder level -- maybe a 2-4, but more prolongedly. I feel a sense of "we need to just get through this", whatever "this" is -- the week, the month, the kids, whatever -- and so I withdraw a little because I see that I believe that doing so will help us "get through it".

You have a lot going on right now, including the pressure you're feeling to make a big decision. Maybe you mean that right now you feel you're at capacity?

That sounds accurate. I think the debate isn't "do I want to have a kid or not". It's "do I feel capable of having a kid or not". If a child "magically appeared" in our lives, I wouldn't respond with "I didn't want that child". So, yeah, the core issue seems to be more "what do I feel like I have the energy to do".

The time pressure is still a factor, too; yes.

...

I think there is a connection between pain and capability/capacity. I think I might be wary of "inviting" more pain into our lives because I don't feel like I have the energy or resources to face it. So, yeah, the potential pain is part of it, but really it's the exhaustion brought by  dealing with the pain, maybe, that is more daunting.

There are great things about SD12 & SD14, and I love and value them. At the same time, I just get so, so tired. I get exhausted "knowing" that there will probably be some conversation, or conflict, or SD14 ranting about something and just so closed off to any other perspective. They are in SO deep at Mom's house to so many weird, unhealthy views and interests -- or, at minimum, views and interests that a 12 and 14 year old can't possibly understand in an adult way and have adult conversations about. I feel like I'm beating my head against a wall with them sometimes if I try to engage with those topics. And something about it feels like not just "teens will be teens and push back", but like a proxy engagement with Mom... if that makes sense. And my interactions with Mom/Stepdad are super anxiety provoking... maybe traumatic.

When you experienced your ED as a teen and gave up the need for control and certainty, what followed?

I need to think about this some more, too. Briefly: years down the road I came to acceptance, an adjusted worldview, better perspective on what was important, and an ability to see that during that part of my life, I was operating under a severe delusion.