Protection Orders: do they work with pwBPD?

[RolandOfEld]

Hello all, this week I filed for a temporary protection order against my BPDw. The officer who helped me process it thinks it has a strong chance to go through, and if it does it could be any time in the next few days. I have already prepared an outside apartment for me and my two young children to go live at. The most urgent reason (among many) I applied for it was that my wife refused to allow me to separate from her, using controlling behaviors such as violence, calling my director at work, falsely reporting me to the police, or endangering my children every time I made moves towards separation.

My purpose in writing this post is to hear from those with related experience on the effectiveness of POs against pwBPD along with their reactions. This will help me to prepare. Thanks!

RolandOfEld

[Shakthi]

I just filed mine against my BPD husband. I asked for him to move out as I ran to a hotel after a domestic violence incident and a threat that followed last week. I am wondering the same thing. I am hoping he leaves us aline till the hearing.

[ForeverDad]

This is a new boundary just established.  Likely there will be some form of push back. Some will file their own allegations, whether substantiated or not.  Others will try to get you to retreat back to the prior patterns, either nice or pressuring.  We refer to it collectively as extinction bursts.

It's up to you whether your boundary will hold and be defended.  You really can do it.  You don't have to cave.  That's one of the reasons we warn about the FOG — Fear, Obligation, Guilt.  Might you be susceptible to any of those tactics?

[RolandOfEld]

Hi Shakthi, I have the same fear. Hope everything goes as well as possible for you.

FD thank you for the reminders of what she might do. Based on my experience of her, she will most likely:

- file her own allegations
- invent some crisis to try and get back in contact with me
- threaten suicide

This is all assuming she doesn't wholly ignore the PO. In the country I live in, my understanding is she could serve up to 3 years in prison for violating it. This is not the result I want for my children's mother, but its in her hands, not mine.

Roland

[ForeverDad]

Suicide threats, simply refer them to emergency agencies, they are trained to handle such cases.  We are viewed as unqualified to assess them.  Two general categories... (1) real suicidal contemplation  (2) manipulations to manipulate, accuse, blame, blame shift, etc.

However, very likely when emergency responders arrive they will be told it never happened and you're the one at fault.  So you'll need witnesses (seldom there) or recordings, texts, emails, etc.

[mart555]

Go for it.  Chances are she won't follow it at first, and you then report that.  After a few shots, the breach of conditions will pile up and she'll end up respecting it.  Be ready for lots of blame, she may even blame the kids.  DO NOT LET ANYTHING SLIP THROUGH.  She contacts you? File a report. She drives by? File a report.  Record and document everything. Record phone calls. Take screenshots of messages and logs. REPORT EVERYTHING. 

Mine had 3 or 4 breach of conditions.   Her criminal proceedings took something like 8 months because she kept stalling and blaming me for everything (I made her punch me? I made her threaten me?).   She ended up with a little slap on the wrist, all she got was 18 months of no contact. Nothing else.  I'd be in jail if I was the one who had assaulted her.

Honestly, it's what saved my sanity. I think I'd be in the psych ward otherwise.     

[Shakthi]

Thanks everyone for the replies. I really hope he doesn’t mess with it as it would mean immigration and other legal issues for him. I am worried about FOG and manipulation. I am realy worried about child custody too.

[I Am Redeemed]

My ex came up with reasons in his own mind why the protective order (which was granted to me in court while he was present) was not valid and therefore worthless. He did not engage in blatantly breaking it at first; rather, he went about using manipulation to get ME to allow him to break it (FOG surrounding our son as well as creating his own crises that he needed rescuing from). Back then I was not as strong at holding boundaries as I am now, and it resulted in me putting myself in a position to be further abused by him, which he did, and which was, then, a series of blatant violations. Looking back, I could have reported the blatant violations of the PO but I didn't because I felt responsible for letting the FOG work. I did seek help from DV services and went complete NC, however.

Eventually the attempts to pressure me for contact died down, largely due to his new girlfriend (we're still legally married, just separated, BTW.) I hope to be able to proceed with divorce in the coming months.

[kells76]

Hi RolandOfEld, it's really good to hear from you again! I was wondering how you've been doing.

Neither I nor DH have experience with RO's or TPO's. I am curious, though, if:

(a) your kids' mom knows where your new apartment is, and
(b) if you're still doing child exchanges with her.

Am I remembering correctly that she has threatened to kill the kids? Or something similar?

my understanding is she could serve up to 3 years in prison for violating it. This is not the result I want for my children's mother, but its in her hands, not mine.

Really important perspective, and I hope it's helpful to others on this board, like Shakthi. Glad you are able to see that her ability to stay out of prison is her responsibility... she's an adult. She can choose to follow a rule, and reap the benefits, or she can choose to not follow a rule, and experience the consequences. You are not "making" her not follow a rule.

My ex came up with reasons in his own mind why the protective order (which was granted to me in court while he was present) was not valid and therefore worthless. He did not engage in blatantly breaking it at first; rather, he went about using manipulation to get ME to allow him to break it (

Right. Disordered people will find ways to have their behavior be "not their responsibility". "I would have followed the TPO, but you made me so mad when I read one of your old texts from last year, that I had to drive by your house. What could I do? Not my fault. Maybe you shouldn't have texted last year"

So again, without any RO or TPO experience, I'm in agreement with IAR -- don't let your guard get eroded away. Don't "crack open the door" out of fear, obligation, or guilt. That will render the order worthless. Keep the door shut and allow the other person to experience their own responsibility for their own life and choices.

RoE, how are your kiddos doing? How old are they now?

[RolandOfEld]

Hi kells, wonderful to hear from you and thanks for your concern. It's possible she knows where the apartment is since she discovered a bill I had from there when she went through my stuff. I passed it off as a friend's that accidentally fell into my bag, but she might do the math. Thankfully my building has several levels of security and I have already informed the guards not to let her in without my permission. I finally moved into the apartment two days  ago and am trying to get the kids here. When the PO goes through that will be much easier and her ability to see the kids will be conditional on how much help she seeks. I have already referred her many time to a DBT program at our nearby hospital. S7 and D4 are quite resilient but I'm sure they are very confused by the current situation. Yes my wife did threaten suicide with them over chat once which I caught in screenshot and my lawyer thinks will be key to me getting custody. Fantastic points about responsibility!

Redeemed great to hear from you to and to receive an update on your situation. Your experience with PO for your husband is a very strong reference and I expect my wife will follow a similar pattern. Good reminder about boundaries. Right now the key boundary I am setting is to no reenter or go near the original apartment. Going inside is dangerous in the sense that she could do something to trap me and also because it is an emotionally poisonous place for me.  She's trying to get me back there by insisting I have to take the kids to school and can only do it from there. I've said that she has to meet me outside in a public place and I will get the kids and bring them to my place, then in the morning take them to school from there. She refused. Let's see what she does.

Shakthir in terms of custody do you have any evidence of your partner's bad behavior, and do you care to share a bit more about the situation? (Sorry if you have done so in other posts, I have been off the board for a while).

mart fantastic SOP for managing slips in her cooperation on the PO. I will follow it.

~Roland

 

[Radcliff]

Roland,

Thanks for keeping us updated on your journey.  You've come a long way.  For me, the two most important things about the restraining order were that it allowed me to be safe in my own home and it allowed me a way to distance myself from my ex by naming the abuse and setting boundaries when I wasn't strong enough to without outside help.  But it came at a high cost, and one of the things it was singularly ineffective at doing was getting my ex to be accountable for what happened.  It just enhanced her sense of victimhood.  Her distortions persist to this day.  You have younger children, so the order may also be an important part of your custody situation.

What will be the arrangements for keeping your children in touch with their mom?  Are they receiving counseling?  Have you decided about whether you will file for divorce, or are you hoping for your wife to improve?

Best,
RC

[mart555]

When the PO goes through that will be much easier and her ability to see the kids will be conditional on how much help she seeks. I have already referred her many time to a DBT program at our nearby hospital. S7 and D4 are quite resilient but I'm sure they are very confused by the current situation. Yes my wife did threaten suicide with them over chat once which I caught in screenshot and my lawyer thinks will be key to me getting custody. Fantastic points about responsibility!

DBT can help but I don't think that it should be the key to letting her see the kids.  She needs to demonstrate good behavior (supervised visits at first?) otherwise she should just fake it in DBT.  They can fake their way out of everything they want..

[Frankee]

I picked up on this thread because I have a phone interview on Tuesday with the DA to talk about filing a protective order.  She picked up the application pretty fast once it was submitted and I am hoping that it is a good sign.  I am worried as well that FOG will start creeping in.  I have set stronger boundaries, but I have never actually followed through with anything like this.  Hoping to see what others say.

[mart555]

I  am worried as well that FOG will start creeping in.  I have set stronger boundaries, but I have never actually followed through with anything like this. 

It will creep in.  Be ready to feel like PLEASE READ. To feel guilty.  Maybe write a few things down, or just print this forum thread.  And if you ever have doubt, read the posts.  The fog will dissipate after.  But it will come back later.  Rinse and repeat. You can do it.

[I Am Redeemed]

Here's the thing. Most of us who were or are not used to setting boundaries feel extremely uncomfortable when we do so, even if it is completely necessary. It goes against our preconceived notions and conditioned beliefs that we are hurting someone else or being vindictive or overreacting or setting ourselves up for a worse behavior by setting the boundary. These are the very threads by which Fear, Obligation, and Guilt are woven.

People who choose to engage in behavior that would cause a restraining order to be granted are responsible for the necessity of the boundary. Period. If someone chooses to put your physical safety at risk, that person's choice is responsible for the consequence. By the same token, you, as a victim of physically threatening behavior, have a duty to yourself to take precautions that protect you.

It's a way of acknowledging that you have the right to be safe from someone who has and may again recklessly cause you harm.

[RolandOfEld]

Redeemed you elucidate the concept of boundaries so beautifully. It's very encouraging for me to see how far you've moved in your journey as well. Even though I was the one who filed the order, she was the one who made it the only option. And even though her well being is not at the top of my priorities for the moment, I like to think that by providing her with a REAL consequence to actions she has justified and normalized is the kindest thing I can do for her in this life. It gives her a genuine context and reason to try to get well. Let's see what she chooses.

Frankee fingers crossed for you. You did a brave thing, and whatever the legal result I'm sure you will benefit from it. My counselor had a good way to talking to me about the emotions I was facing in all this. She said once the PO had gone through I would have lots of space to deal with my emotions, but this moment was about action.

mart555 excellent point! DBT can't be the key negotiating point. It has to be demonstrated and sustained good behavior.

Thank you Radcliff for that important perspective. I have a family counselor ready to go when the time is right. Divorce is sadly the only option. Even if she made a full recovery just her presence or even the small of her perfume triggers PTSD in me. My hope is that someday after all of this we can be friends. I can see the good in her beneath all of the chaos.

*Update, me and BPDw are currently at a standstill in terms of me seeing the kids. She refuses to let me see them unless I come to the house, but that is the one boundary I will not cross. Once I am in the house, she could use any number of methods to entrap me. Sadly the PO has not come through yet and I'm concerned the court might have found my evidence insufficient, in which case the two of us will be called into court. That could have advantages, as with the opportunity to make a more nuanced case I could receive a 2 year PO rather than just a temporary one. I'll keep everyone updated.

In the meantime, its deeply painful to not see my kids and to wonder what they are feeling since they are probably receiving all the wrong messages from their mother. I can try to visit their school during a weekday to see them and talk to them.

~ROE

[mart555]

*Update, me and BPDw are currently at a standstill in terms of me seeing the kids. She refuses to let me see them unless I come to the house, but that is the one boundary I will not cross. Once I am in the house, she could use any number of methods to entrap me.

This may backfire with a "she is abusive yet you left her with the kids alone?" so definitely have a chat with a lawyer.  And get an audio recorder for when you go in the house.. 

[AND-01]

Hi and sorry to hear about the situation you are in.

As others have said, make detailed notes and if allowable record as much as possible. My uPWBPD told our kids she was going to kill herself amongst other things. Our 11 year old son has had at least 7 occasions where he has put himself in life threatening situations but she claims that all kids are like that (school tie nooses, cycling into traffic in a deliberate attempt to get hurt and climbing out a top floor window).

This all followed her affair during which she blanked and ignored the kids to the point that they would cry about mummy ignoring them or if they got hurt playing she ignored them to text on her phone).

Now her threats of suicide have turned into threats that I am emotionally abusing her if I don’t do what she wants or I try to talk about things. She has turned the school against me and social care too.

I wish I had recorded the low points of my son as I get the impression people have bought her story and I am making it up. Record everything and get detail in about what started any particular problem and include how you felt, then date stamp it by pdf a word document or a detailed diary.

Good luck and I hope things get better for you

[RolandOfEld]

Thank you mart555 and AND-01 thank you for the advice. Thankfully I've got three years worth of documented evidence of abuse and bad behavior, of which I only used the last six months worth to apply for the PO. I also have my repeated communications over messaging of the last week of how I want the kids with me . It might require a court meeting to show all the nuances of the situation, but my lawyer is confident our chances are very high.

~ROE

[siobhan823]

My purpose in writing this post is to hear from those with related experience on the effectiveness of POs against pwBPD along with their reactions. This will help me to prepare. Thanks!

RolandOfEld

Hey Roland,  , how are things going?

The most difficulty I had with the PO I filed was evasion of service. BPDh and I were separated but he had been staying at my house and wouldn't leave. He isn't big on friends and family so he was living out of a vehicle and it was nearly impossible to find him. I filed the order to get a move out order and because when he would rage he would block me in rooms (like I was telling you on another thread.) I had to file for a second time because the first one was dismissed due to lack of service. I finally found him and the police served him. Then we had the hearing. I wasn't able to prove he was a threat to me outside of the home, so the order only lasted for three weeks, but it did work and he did leave me alone. Oddly his only concern was that it went on his record.

Mine was likely a lot simpler than yours because we didn't have any children together.

And the FOG was thick for me... but I did what your counselor suggested. I focused on actions and dealt with the emotions later. Even nearly a year later I feel guilt, but I would do it again because it was necessary at the time, and it showed me I was stronger than I knew. I didn't have a lawyer. I defended myself and my children were brave and wrote witness statements. They love their stepfather very much and just want him to get the help he needs and deserves. It can be hard to remember that boundaries are loving, but they are. It isn't loving to allow someone to abuse you. Not to them, and not to you.

Sounds like you are taking great steps! Brave on .

[Grady]

In my personal experience, the order of protection is not working exactly as it should.  H and BPD both have them against each other.  They are only allowed to speak in reference to SS.  BPD is able to spin conversations and manipulate things to start out about SS and then turn them so I know H engages far more than he should with her.  She has stayed away from us and our home though but recently got a car so I'm hoping that won't change things.  H definitely lets himself fall for her manipulations.  It's so much better than it was without the order so I would say it definitely is helping, but she certainly violates it whenever she pleases.  My only savings grace is that I believe she has found some new victims to manipulate and take advantage of who she is currently working so her focus isn't 100% on ruining our lives. 

[Radcliff]

Roland,

How are things going for you?

RC

[RolandOfEld]

Hi Radcliff, thank you so much for checking in.

The situation remains as it has been with her refusing to let me see the kids if I don't enter the house, and my refusing to do so. Though it is excruciatingly painful to not see them and not know how they are, I believe until the PO comes through I need to keep my one ground of not going back. If I do all this pain and all the children have gone through will be for nothing and I lose the one protection I have. 

In the meantime, I am making every effort to prepare my case for the future divorce / custody hearing. I had a productive meeting with the social worker who was assigned to my case after I filed the PO, and she thoroughly interviewed me on all of the abuse towards me and the children. She will reach out to my wife as well and I think she will be of big help later on. At least now the system is very aware of what's been going on in my family.

Today I made a thorough record of all of her behaviors and mine since I moved out to show that I was not away from the kids by my own decision but how she has subtly manipulated the situation for me not to see them. I made sure to show my constant efforts to see them and present a more nuanced narrative than "Dad got angry and moved out."

I still have hope that the PO will come through in the next two weeks, and if it doesn't I am well prepared to go to trial.

It also extremely helpful to learn from other members experience with this sort of situation here.

~ROE

[Radcliff]

I am concerned that you haven't seen the kids.  Are you wary that she might physically trap you in the home?  Can you bring a friend or social worker with you?  Did the social worker have any advice on how to keep you connected to the kids?

RC

[RolandOfEld]

Hi Radcliff and all,

*update, she let me have some time with the kids this weekend because she wanted to go out with a friend and needed a babysitter. 

**bigger update, the PO came in yesterday, but I discovered that since it is a temporary PO it only covers me and not the kids. She is not happy about the PO and said she will respect it, but won't let me see the kids until I remove it. Then a minute later, she said she will send the kids to be with me full time after the weekend. I don't worry too much about getting kids with the time now, only that it will be random and at her whims, which I don't think is good for anyone.

I'm gearing up with my lawyer to push for divorce / custody / regular PO as soon as possible. He has said that once you have a PO go through you are very likely to win. But who knows. 

I am discovering that these things never go as planned, but that if you look at the big picture, things will go the way they should. I have faith that as long as I keep focused on my goal that I will reach it one way or the other.

I want to say to those newer members on this thread that where I am now has been the journey of three years, and it all began the day I joined this board. To call the advice I received here helpful doesn't do it justice - it saved my life. Stay on the board! Stay strong! We can do this!

~ROE

[livednlearned]

Hi RoE,

I just wanted to chime in and say how much I admire your strength. I think it took me roughly 3 years to leave, too. The last year felt like being shot out of a rocket which is both an exhilarating and terrifying feeling, especially when you have kids involved.

It's meaningful that you stuck to your boundary and refrained from going to the house. Even if she didn't do anything to harm you, something really important happened -- you demonstrated that this boundary is important to you and is not negotiable. 

Even if you have access to the kids, I like your idea of visiting them at school. Is that something you are still considering?

Your lawyer expresses confidence that things will go your way. I'm glad you have someone in your corner who is advocating for you and helping you build confidence.

Let us know if you get to see the kids this week. 

[Radcliff]

How are things going?  What is the final custody arrangement you are aiming for with the kids, as far as percentage of time in each home, schedule, etc.?

RC

[Harri]

This topic reached the max post limit and the discussion has been locked and split.  The conversation continues here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=345722.0

Thank you.