Are there telltale signs that mediation is doomed? PART 2

[SamwizeGamgee]

Mod Note:  part 1 of this thread is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=345269.0;all

Well, I just fired off my (hopefully) BIFF email about moving forward on mediation.
  
I spent some time thinking about whether it's doomed, and I bet in my heart I know that mediation is doomed to fail. I'm feeling that if we had traits that gave us power to succeed in  mediation, we wouldn't need a divorce.

I still hold out hope.  I keep reminding myself of the advice in Splitting - to always consider alternatives to litigation.

[mart555]

If mediation doesn't work it may still allow you to figure out what her plan is and you'll have that info before court.  Whatever documents you prepare (mediation brief, offers, ..) make sure most of it can be used in court if needed.  That way it's not all money wasted. 

[zachira]

I am wondering if you could get in writing her conditions for divorce. Then you are not as stuck with her constantly changing her story without any proof that she is looking for ways to hurt you and not cooperating with the divorce process.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Mart - that could be a double edged sword.  I don't want to fire off my ammo in mediation.  So, hopefully we can agree without having to resort of my legal arsenal.  And if not, I am also getting comfortable with the "his and her lawyer exchanging info" kind of negotiation.

It's interesting to consider this.  I can't see that she has a legal strategy, other than sort of expecting and getting everything she wants in some way or another.  I see a lot of hypocrisy in her behavior too, but that's a topic for another day. I'm out of fuel tonight.

[ForeverDad]

I must be forgetting my full story line, as listed this morning.  Yes, my mediation did fail, my settlement conference also failed.  But my trial was averted, we settled on Trial Day.  The trial was a bridge her lawyer warned her not to cross.

That's why I often report that many of us have settled, just that it's rare when early in the divorce process, the ex's sense of entitlement and control is usually too strong at first.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Thanks.  I am encouraged to hear that in many cases, things don't go as planned, or perfectly, but with time it sounds like we get to a healthy place.

I am looking at my relationship and finding things that pretty much show me what's going to happen.  Drama, enmeshment, entitlement, blackmail, projection, blame, guilt, jumping to conclusions, using feelings as facts, stonewalling, silent treatment, episodic rages.  The list goes on. 

I noticed I didn't mention negotiation and compromise.  Examples don't come to mind. 

I am hopping that with a reasonable authority figure (a sympathetic mediator or lawyer) we might be able to keep it on the rails towards a settlement without open conflict.

[mart555]

Mart - that could be a double edged sword.  I don't want to fire off my ammo in mediation.  So, hopefully we can agree without having to resort of my legal arsenal.  And if not, I am also getting comfortable with the "his and her lawyer exchanging info" kind of negotiation.

Oh don't get me wrong.. I don't want you to fire off anything.  All I'm saying is that whatever you do, make sure it's not wasted effort and can be used later should you need to go through the court system.  No need to send the ex everything.. 

[mart555]

I am hopping that with a reasonable authority figure (a sympathetic mediator or lawyer) we might be able to keep it on the rails towards a settlement without open conflict.

Be ready to expect a new lawyer if the first one isn't doing what she wants..  Mine ended up with 3 lawyers. And the 2nd one was apparently a saint (according to my lawyer) and used to work as a social worker in mental health...

[zachira]

I am wondering how to cut down on the drama and how long it takes to finalize a divorce. Is is possible to hire a mediation firm that only works through correspondance between the two parties divorcing?

[MeandThee29]

I am wondering how to cut down on the drama and how long it takes to finalize a divorce. Is is possible to hire a mediation firm that only works through correspondance between the two parties divorcing?

I'm not aware of any in my area who do that.

Mine was completed by having my lawyer write an agreement based on what we had partially worked out with each other, and then the two attorneys talked with us and emailed back-and-forth. That's called a negotiated settlement. It shouldn't have taken as long as it did, and we did have to threaten court to get it signed when it stalled. By then I was emotionally prepared to do that if we had to, but we didn't.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Well, here's an indicator.  I found out one example of when mediation is doomed.

Our mediator dumped us. 

It was probably a good call for the mediator.  There's only so much one can work with in order to mediate.

I feel sad.  I guess it's the rejection, and realization that I didn't succeed in marriage, and now can even succeed in ending it.  ;)

I do still hope that we can end this with some dignity.  Perhaps another mediator, or most likely the negotiated settlement.  Who knows?

It could go well enough with two lawyers negotiating it out.  It may be better than the more flammable circumstance than when she and I are in the room. There's a big tendency to get off-topic when STBX connects everything to everything else in negotiation. If she has to pay her own lawyer fees, maybe that will dial it down.  I do hope she finds a lawyer who does not feed her desire to blame and then go after me. The first one she talked too filled her head with all kinds of fodder.

[GaGrl]

A note on being in the same room with your STBX...if that is difficult, you can ask a mediator to have each of you in a separate room, with the mediator going between rooms. This keeps the topic focused so that one party can't hijack  the negotiation by suddenly introducing a new "need" or condition.

(I was trained as a mediator but used it exclusively in corporate human resources situations. I always kept the parties in separate rooms and moved between them.)

If you want to try mediation, you could find a mediator who takes this approach. However, your mediator dropping you is a pretty clear indicator that you might need lawyers to negotiate a settlement.

[ForeverDad]

Sorry, I just got out of the hospital, I don't have  a lot of words today.  I've watched you agonize for an exceedingly long time over finding a way to mediate, settle, find some way to end the marriage nicely.  I'll be blunt.  I don't think that's possible.  Hey, even the mediator called it quits.  That's a pretty big heads up for you.

This isn't to say that some sort of settlement won't ever happen.  Most of us do seem to get that relief, but not at the start, not while the stbEx is too comfortable feeling in control.  Time to let the court process take over.  At least you can report to the court you tried mediation and it failed.  Time for court's next step.

Dial back the Nice Guy and Patient Guy, let Practical Guy and Determined Guy take charge.

I do still hope that we can end this with some dignity.  Perhaps another mediator, or most likely the negotiated settlement.  Who knows?

... If she has to pay her own lawyer fees, maybe that will dial it down...

Yes, let her pay her own legal fees.  (It's not ordered but optional so far?)  Uh, yes, she's under no pressure to resolve this as long as you're enabling her to prolong it all.  In my case, my ex did prolong my divorce as long as she could, some two years,  because she had a very favorable temp order but I was never ordered to pay her lawyer.  It was made clear that she was to pay her legal fees out of the split later on from her portion of the marital financial assets.  Yeah, even her lawyer had a stake in that, he wanted to get paid.  How your state and local courts handles legal fees may be different.

[GaGrl]

To the question of making sure things keep moving forward...

1) As ForeverDad says, quit paying her legal costs.

2) When you file, there will be steps along the way. At some point, you'll have the opportunity to set a court date. That can sound ominous. It's not. Rarely do negotiated settlements actually go to court. However, without a date set, there's no incentive to compromise on some issues and come to an agreement.

(My husband, when in divorce negotiations with his ex, went back and forth too many times, with her requesting some pretty outrageous concessions. He finally told her he would have his lawyer get a court date, and she immediately finalized the outstanding items -- she is very nervous about court and the legal system. Had he gotten a court date early on, he could have saved 5-6 months of stalling.)

[SamwizeGamgee]

First of, hey FD - recover well and take care of yourself! 
I'll still be here ;)

Thank you everyone.  I have been the human voltage capacitor for an exceedingly long time. 
To clarify, I have insisted we split legal costs so far.  Even for the mediator, we paid out of joint account and she contributed. 

As much as it's not in my nature, I am learning to not care take. 

STBX is afraid of court, and only plays deadlines and ultimatums to her use and benefit.  However, if she gets entangled with a lawyer who encourages the blaming (and why not - it makes them lots of money) I am in for quite a ride.

What is to be, shall be.

[mart555]

Yes, let her pay her own legal fees.  (It's not ordered but optional so far?)  Uh, yes, she's under no pressure to resolve this as long as you're enabling her to prolong it all.  In my case, my ex did prolong my divorce as long as she could, some two years,  because she had a very favorable temp order but I was never ordered to pay her lawyer.  It was made clear that she was to pay her legal fees out of the split later on from her portion of the marital financial assets.  Yeah, even her lawyer had a stake in that, he wanted to get paid.  How your state and local courts handles legal fees may be different.

I had agreed to pay 50% of the legal fees for a separation agreement..  she ended up racking a 10k bill with her lawyer because that's how BPDs do things...   She ended up into a massive argument with the lawyer who dropped her and reduced her bill...  

[MeandThee29]

I had agreed to pay 50% of the legal fees for a separation agreement..  she ended up racking a 10k bill with her lawyer because that's how BPDs do things...   She ended up into a massive argument with the lawyer who dropped her and reduced her bill...  

I'm sorry you had to learn that lesson.

My attorney figured that my ex paid probably 2-3x what I did, maybe more. I was very efficient when I talked to mine and never fought with him. We discussed and decided. Period.

[yeeter]

I do still hope that we can end this with some dignity.  Perhaps another mediator, or most likely the negotiated settlement.  Who knows?

I know of no way, and keep duping myself into 'hoping' for a less contentious and less contiguous path.  But as FD experienced, you do not control the legal process and there are many ways the other side can drag it out and make it difficult.  Unfortunately 'it takes two to argue' is absolutely false in the court system, it only takes ONE SIDE to make conflict.  The court allows it.  Two years is not unrealistic to expect (and I am on this path despite every attempt at mediation and settlement, and coparenting amicably).  But there is an old farmer saying:

Its like wrestling with a pig.  Its messy and mud and #$\! gets all over every thing and every where.  And the pig likes it.

Try to think of ways to make it less satisfying for her.  Sometimes indifference helps.  Dont feed the attention to the degree possible.  Detach.  Turn the crank of the legal system in whatever way is possible.  Avoid responding and sucking into drama that has no purpose.  Keep taking whatever blows or hits (emotionally, accusations, etc) you have to and brush them off (thick skin!).

[MeandThee29]

Try to think of ways to make it less satisfying for her.  Sometimes indifference helps.  Dont feed the attention to the degree possible.  Detach.  Turn the crank of the legal system in whatever way is possible.  Avoid responding and sucking into drama that has no purpose.  Keep taking whatever blows or hits (emotionally, accusations, etc) you have to and brush them off (thick skin!).

Be very thoughtful as you watch how the attorneys interact. Some will allow the fury to rage and then let the crazy through so that the other side has to be the bad guy. Others will be very selective with their clients and work hard to keep negotiations reasonable. Many will be in the middle.

My attorney said in the initial interview that if I wasn't willing to be reasonable, he was the wrong attorney for me. He saw no reason to rile the other side up unless it went to court, and then maybe ugly would be needed for the judge to see the truth. I saw how effective that was. He was Mr. Steady and got a good negotiated settlement for me while the other side threw in all kinds of crazy. He told me to rise above it. He said that we would not be the problem, we would be the problem solvers.

I'm thankful every day for him, believe me. To get a negotiated settlement in a high conflict divorce is rare, but he did it.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Seeing all these tales is scary, but, also hopeful.  We can get through it.
I tend to over talk, especially when stressed, so I'll probably run up my own legal bills in consultation! ;)

But, I won't be the one making trouble.  At the moment, I am looking at myself as the guy in prison serving a life sentence for a crime he didn't commit, and trying to work out a deal to get released with time served.  I'm not interesting in "winning" something or even making out very well.  My healthy self, my time with kids, my better future.

As far as STBX.  She is high functioning for the most part.  But, I can see her behaviors also triggering during this process (like when I was accused of lying, cheating, and stealing, in the first five minutes of our first mediation session).
However, during the regulated times, things move much better. I hope Dr. Jekyl stays in charge for most of the divorce process.

[defogging]

I'm going to jump in again with my suggestion of hiring a lawyer (and your wife hiring one too).  Please don't misunderstand me and think that I'm suggesting firing shots over the bow and charging forward as the aggressor.  What I mean is I think you should initiate the official process and have court deadlines set, to eliminate game playing and delays.

The mediator has sent you a clear message that this is not a situation where two parties can behave and settle things amicably.  But, there is a possibility that you can each be represented by a lawyer and still settle in mediation.

What I learned from my experience is that the courts have a very set way they do things.  In my jurisdiction there is little variation from the standard 50/50 parenting and splitting finances, unless there are extenuating circumstances like abuse that can be proven.  I found that they've already seen it all, and our cases aren't that special.  My case, even with all the PD accusations of abuse and placing blame, was an easy case for the courts to sort out.

We settled in mediation in the first attempt, three months after I filed.  Our mediation took place in two separate rooms, one for me and my lawyer, one for her and her lawyer.  The mediator walked back and forth.  I wouldn't have it any other way, it worked great.  No conflict, just my lawyer and I talking things over to determine the best path forward and what to agree on.   

I agree - don't make any trouble.  Find a proactive lawyer that wants a common sense settlement and move on.  Mine did a great job of telling me the reality of what I wanted vs what the courts see fit, and was creative in finding ways to modify language in the agreements so my ex couldn't find any loopholes.  Also - Don't over talk to your lawyer, and don't use them as a sounding board for how you're feeling.  My lawyer is a great guy, and we had some great talks about PDs.  But, when I received my first $5k invoice (for one month) I knew it was time to only talk business and get him off the payroll as fast as possible.  T's are cheaper by the hour.