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gleglo2000

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Relationship status: close to divorce
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« on: July 11, 2020, 06:53:59 AM »

Hi all, thanks for welcoming me. The site seems a revelation for me.

My story is as follows: I met my wife ten years ago. She was and remains the most fascinating, smart and funny woman I know.  She was obviously anorectic. She got drunk and needed my help before our first date. Soon I learned she was using various drugs. I trusted in her and believed that my love would make her want to heal herself. A typical story, as I see now.

We married seven years ago. We have two little girls, aged 3 and 4. During pregnancy and breastfeeding, she was much better, stopped drinking and that seems to have been our best time. However, she soon started being hypersensitive to kids’ feeding/eating and used any methods to reach her aims, including shouting, blackmailing the kids, etc., which I could not stand. We had a lot of conflicts around that, went to therapy, together, me alone, she alone, but nothing helped. She was at home, but I suggested to have a full time babysitter, as otherwise I could not leave for my work. Breastfeeding of the second daughter started soon to be a big issue, as soon after her first anniversary, none of us could have a good sleep anymore and I took over caring for the child during the night and, after several months, started to ask her to stop breastfeeding. That proved to be a big mistake.

When she started yelling at the kids (usually the older daughter) or trying to hit her, I would try to intervene, but I was, looking back, usually quite weak and uncertain. A psychologist told me not to interfere in front of the kids, which made things worse, as I started to try to talk things through with her in the evenings. She would either argue with me, or do something on her phone, but it never led anywhere. 

When she stopped breastfeeding, about two years ago, things started going down the hill quickly. She started drinking, then her depressive dad closed himself to commit a suicide. She saved him and while I tried to help as much as I could, that was free fall. After a particularly brutal incident I asked her to go for inpatient treatment (for alcohol or bulimia, I did not identify it as BPD by then) lest I leave. She selected a private rehab center and asked me to promise not to tell anyone - there was a cover story - which I did promise, but I could not deliver - my parents already knew and I had to tell a few friends, who supported me during her rehab stay. I did cancel her credit card (linked to my account) then as well, as she went wild with spending.

As she came back after a month, she was under a lot of medication and for a while I thought it helped. However, things remained out of control with food and there was the first conflict. Therapists told us to agree some rules around the kids to avoid all the infighting and when I wrote down my proposal, she was dull and accepted it (in therapy). At the same time, we had to find an arrangement for money, which we did, although she started challenging it soon in a very aggressive ways, calling me names, etc. Two weeks later, she announced on therapy that she wanted to separate. That was eight months ago.

At that point, I had been working all my free time on finding out a strategy to make things work. Therapists were of no help, my general impression is that they are trained to help with a divorce, but not with fixing the relationship. I found the book on Boundaries (Henry Cloud), started putting them in practice (e.g. when she called me names, came drunk, I would walk away), but that made things only worse, as I did not know the BPD part, I did not emphasise me coming back soon. I found Al-anon, which helped me a lot, in February. In March, we got completely separated, changing in turns with kids (who stayed in the house, the two of us going back and forth, as we have another apartment). In May, she came with a request to divorce, but has not done anything to make it happen since then (I remain passive in that). Soon after that, I found the book Splitting and then Stop walking on the eggshells and realised what I was dealing with. That helped me tremendously and I stopped reacting on her anger and for a while, things seemed to get better.

As we started talking, for the first time after months, she started complaining about the things through which I harmed her, i.e. putting her down on her maternity skills (breastfeeding, dealing with kids), betraying her with the rehab (telling my parents, etc.) and the money issue. While I initially tried to JADE, then tried to use SET to get her to understand my point of view, it was of no help. When I found the book Hold me tight from Sue Johnson, I tried to take the first two points (family finances need to remain under control) as relationship traumas and that had a tremendous effect. She immediately started communicating in a much more friendly manner. The book also helped me to deal with my emotions resulting from the separation, as all the co-dependency literature just convinced me that there was something wrong in me for feeling the pain from her leaving. 

About a month ago, I found out from the kids that she had a lover in the house when I was away. I told her I did not want him there and, to my surprise, she accepted that. Similarly, when she recently took it out at the kids (for being slow with taking on shoes), I interfered clearly and strongly (based on SWOE) and she just took it, calmed down immediately, shaking for quite some time afterwards, but apologising soon. 

Also after our second discussion, where I accepted her relationship traumas and used the five-step hold me tight approach, she texted me that she broke up with the lover. This was not the case, as I soon found out, but a real progress, since then it may have also really happened. That was ten days ago, on her first day of work after five years. She works in the city, close to our apartment, one hour drive away from the house (we have one car), and misses the kids. I am now spending most of the time with the kids, as we were unable to have a discussion about the plans for the summer when I needed it several weeks ago, so I just proposed her what I could organise and she generally acknowledged it.

I try to be forthcoming and patient with her, but I also want her to face the consequences of her own actions, i.e. in particular the separation. I am trying to let go of the urge to get immediately back to her and to take the time we need for our relationship to heal and each of us to get on track for personal healing. I am trying to take good care of myself to have the energy to care for the kids and deal with this emotional rollercoaster, which leads often to conflicts, as she accuses me of e.g. not mowing the lawn and exposing the kids to ticks. I am trying to work on my relationship with my parents - in our family, emotions were for the most of our lives a complete tabu, boundaries did not exist - if you have any suggestions for good books on this front, I will appreciate.

She has made great progress over the past few months, almost stopped drinking, significantly calmed down the rages and now she even claims to have taken some therapy sessions. We even spent some time together, just enjoying it, not fighting and not talking about the relationship, recently. However, there is a fine line and I am still trying to find my blind spots. Two days ago, her narcissistic and all-encompassing mum wanted to talk to me (she was helping me out with the kids). It was a difficult conversation, while most of the time it was enough to listen, I had to respond to some questions and I even defended some of my past actions, which may still prove to cause damage, when my wife gets the news and sees this as trying to get things done behind her back. On the other hand, I need a good relationship also with my MiL so I cannot ignore her.     

Thanks to all for reading it until here. As I am reading your stories, it helps a lot. If you have some observations, especially of things I may be missing/getting wrong, I will appreciate them.  
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Gemsforeyes
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« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2020, 08:21:38 AM »

Dear Gleg-

Welcome to our community.  I’m so sorry for what brings you here, but very glad that you’ve joined us.  There is a wealth of information on this site to help you navigate your relationship.  It doesn’t matter whether or not your W receives a BPD diagnosis... it’s the behaviors that you’re addressing, and your response to those, so really good job on your part.

It really seems you’ve done the best you can to protect your children.  And yourself.  These things DO need to remain a priority if your BPDw reverts back to abusive behaviors.  You know that.

I’ve not much time now, but I want to point you to a section in the TOOLS, WORKSHOPS on “TRIANGULATION”.   The reason for this is the contact with your MIL.  This may or may not come into play for you depending on your W’s relationship with her mom.  But likely WILL help you in some way, since you indicate your W may see your conversation with your MIL as talking “behind her back”.  In the end, understanding TRIANGULATION and how it can work to your detriment is a good thing.

Also a good thing, time-permitting of course, would be to scroll through the other items in the TOOLS, WORKSHOPS section and pour over other areas that light up for you.  Talk about those items as you need help.

It seems as you present a “strong”, firm  and reliable persona to your wife; not overly emotional and definitely NOT confrontational, the more positively she responds to you.  My take?  (I could be wrong...) This is exactly the MAN she needs and wants and has to have to retain respect.  Not like her father... she cannot have a man SHE has to rescue.  Does that make sense?  She’s got enough pain inside her right now related to her father... and this may go way back?  Who knows?

So this means you’ve GOT to take care of yourself.  Find someone YOU can trust, talk to, vent to (this site is good for that), seek feedback from.  And perhaps don’t tell your FOO EVERYTHING.  Sometimes with our family of origin, with their desire to protect us, we do need to use a filter.  Because they do NOT understand the complexities of these relationships and their immediate response will be to advise us to LEAVE.  They advise out of love, but not always in our true best interest in the moment. 

Finally, it sounds good that you and your dear W are having engagement around things that do NOT focus on the relationship.  Sometimes that’s the best route to find your way home.

Please take good care.  Of you.  Your children.  Your heart.

And please keep posting.  You’re safe here.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes
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Rev
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The surest way to fail is to never try.


« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2020, 09:16:14 AM »

Hi - and I too just want to say welcome.

Gems has given you a great place to start and so I am just responding here to follow the thread.

I'll weigh in later.

And yes - this place is wonderful.

Rev
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gleglo2000

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« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2020, 05:25:08 AM »

Dear Gems, dear Rev

thanks a lot for your kind words, I am a bit slow on this, but I really enjoyed those and it helps me a lot. I am slowly working through the tools and other materials.

We are now in a rather silent phase, not talking too much. She still seems to be in touch with the other man, but has now also started coming home, being nice to me, almost stopped scolding me and looks like exhausted from the whole thing. It seems to me that in the last few incidents, I have managed to keep calm, react appropriately (even strongly, when it was due) and it has not come over my head, but she rather backtracked and then apologised. So I am in a waiting mode. This will take time, she needs to change her decision, which will come bit by bit. If it comes. If not, I am ready to take it, even if it would be sad.     

It seems as you present a “strong”, firm  and reliable persona to your wife; not overly emotional and definitely NOT confrontational, the more positively she responds to you.  My take?  (I could be wrong...) This is exactly the MAN she needs and wants and has to have to retain respect.  Not like her father... she cannot have a man SHE has to rescue.  Does that make sense?  She’s got enough pain inside her right now related to her father... and this may go way back?  Who knows?

Thanks, yes, I do try to. Be safe for her. Take care of what I am responsible for. Do what I promise to do. Do not hurt her. Do not tell her how bad she is. 

And yes, she has a lot of pain inside, probably not only in respect of the father. She needs to deal with that and needs the space I can give her to do that. But I do not bail her out anymore.

Thanks again. I will come back, when things develop.
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Rev
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The surest way to fail is to never try.


« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2020, 08:16:10 AM »

Dear Gems, dear Rev

thanks a lot for your kind words, I am a bit slow on this, but I really enjoyed those and it helps me a lot. I am slowly working through the tools and other materials.

We are now in a rather silent phase, not talking too much. She still seems to be in touch with the other man, but has now also started coming home, being nice to me, almost stopped scolding me and looks like exhausted from the whole thing. It seems to me that in the last few incidents, I have managed to keep calm, react appropriately (even strongly, when it was due) and it has not come over my head, but she rather backtracked and then apologised. So I am in a waiting mode. This will take time, she needs to change her decision, which will come bit by bit. If it comes. If not, I am ready to take it, even if it would be sad.     

Thanks, yes, I do try to. Be safe for her. Take care of what I am responsible for. Do what I promise to do. Do not hurt her. Do not tell her how bad she is. 

And yes, she has a lot of pain inside, probably not only in respect of the father. She needs to deal with that and needs the space I can give her to do that. But I do not bail her out anymore.

Thanks again. I will come back, when things develop.

Hi -

So yeah - this really sounds great. "Respond - not react" is a motto. Really hard to do until one gets one's head around what living with someone with a disorder is really like.

From experience, both professional and personal, I really like the sound of where you are at in your personal space. The really counter intuitive thing that I have found works with situations like we share here is this:  Under "normal" conditions, one would be inclined to engage the person with which we are having a conflict on a higher level - ie a more mature defense to use psychotherapeutic terms.  This works well when people are psychologically ordered - even if a person is behaving in a rather immature way (who hasn't done that?). Because with order comes the possibility of self awareness.  But with a personality structure that is disordered (which is inevitably a sign of serious attachment issues) there is far less possibility of this. In the same way that someone who is dyslexic needs coping strategies for life, if a person's attachment issues are severe enough, they will need cognitive coping strategies for life.  The more I delve into this and read about it, the more I am convinced that pwBPD/NPD live in a world of "feelings based facts" which makes engagement very tricky. Timing is everything.

So the counter intuitive part is ... the best way to engage a person with a personality disorder is to disengage without disappearing. This is can be exceptionally difficult, because in involves setting boundaries that cannot move - EVER.   And I would say that the amount of personal space that you might need is proportional to the depth of her disorder.  To be somewhat overly simplistic, you might need to settle for one engaged day a week and be in neutral the rest of the time.   The more personal space you create for yourself without disappearing offers her the chance to live more in your world and less in the chaotic world of BPD.

So what I love here is your "time will tell" approach and your "I am ready to do what is necessary" approach. Very wise and emotionally intelligent.

One other thing that doesn't seem to have been mentioned.  Your two children are of the age where feelings of autonomy vs shame/doubt and initiative vs guilt are being cultivated. They will inevitably gravitate to behavior that helps them cope with stress. The more stable you are emotionally (ie - express anger in a calm way) the better it will be for them. You actually have the potential to plant some pretty potent seeds of resiliency in them.

Hope this helps.

Rev
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gleglo2000

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Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: close to divorce
Posts: 11


« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2021, 12:13:19 PM »

Dear Rev, Gems, all

while I have not posted to this thread for a long time, I want to come back, as I feel the need to do so. Life was too fast since summer. And I think the thread above is a good intro.

Long story short: we are now fully and orderly separated, taking weekly turns in caring for the kids in the family  apartment while using another apartment during the lonely week. After some chaos I initiated and implemented this system in October, as she started another affair. Life got into a bit of order then. I told her I would divorce her if she did not stop that affair and she did stop it. I got a lot of energy from the new order and I had set (already back at the end of 2019) a boundary of keeping up until the end of 2020, unless there is a progress by then. It did seem getting better, we started talking, we were going to couple therapy, we even went out for a dinner when it was possible for once (which was a disaster).

I think I am starting to slowly understand SET: support, empathy without mentioning myself and then, if the first two work fine, true. It takes time, but it bears fruit. I manage to get messages across that would be impossible a few months ago. I managed to install some boundaries: while talking on the phone - she learned that if she keeps scolding me, I would SET warn her and then hang up. She had to accept that she cannot interfere with my time with kids - I asked her not to come to the apartment then, as it was always a mess. If she asks for something, I try not to answer YES/NO, I listen and ask. On kids (she has a lot of rules for me) - I told her the discussion needs to be mutual, my wants and needs also being reflected, if she wants to impose her (very dynamic) rules. I spent a lot of time just trying to listen to her, keeping her on a subject with questions - that helped a lot to get an understanding of what was going on. Video calls are much better than face2face meetings.

But then Christmas came, she got drunk the Sunday before and, as agreed after a previous similar incident, I asked her to leave the apartment when it was her turn to take over the kids (she did). The next day she asked me to come over, saying she did not feel well psychically after this. Suddenly, I dropped all the defences and agreed immediately. I came, ate and watched a movie with her. Only after that did I realise that I something was not in order - there was only a very unclear invitation to come back, a request to stay, but nothing to address the year-long crisis in our relationships, no reason given. She did not want to talk, perhaps she was just tired and sick. As I found in therapy last week, I was overwhelmed by fear that I would drown in a reality I worked so hard to avoid and lose the entire structure I erected. I had to leave.

She got, over the course of a few days, more and more angry, the incident grew into a huge proportion. She had been already feeling sick then and as she was later told she needed surgery (not life threatening, not urgent, and I had been asking her to get a check-up for a few months already), the meaning of the incident developed: I left her in a life threatening situation the same as her father did again and again when she was small. I abandoned her. She got more and more mad with me, so we progressively limited our communication to almost nothing over the last week.

As my deadline of 31 December expired and I had no solution in sight, I got more and more depressive (my therapist says it sounds rather like an anxiety attack). Also, I made the mistake of limiting the use of my support network of friends (COVID, new year, etc.). I felt I needed to act and the only action on my list would be divorce. Which would be obviously an explosion, abandonment fear at its worse and a full blow war over kids and finance. However, while I am ready, rather than risking a mental illness, using all the tools, I trust I could navigate that even though it would be tough and bloody. I still do not want a divorce.

Nonetheless, just before Christmas, on a couple session, our joint therapist admitted that he did not know what to do with our conflicts. So, as the session concluded, I gave him a present - the book Hold me tight from Sue Johnson (I tried to tell him before, but he would not listen, and looking for another one is not an option). Emotionally Focused Couples' Therapy described therein addresses most of marital conflict as a representation of attachment fears, which fits very well with the definition of BPD. The therapist did read the book over the holidays and applied it in the first session in the new year. We opened a door that had been shut for long, in myself (I was willing), but she did also step back at points, stop blaming me and describe her feeling (of the abandonment). Near the end, as we got into a fight, the therapist, who tried to be so neutral for several months, not advising divorce or reconnection, told me to shut up when I was getting ready to raise divorce and ultimately, she made the decision to continue with the therapy. I felt very good and she was nice after that.   

While I am writing this, the situation remains very very inconclusive, there is a very small light very far away... she got drunk again, lied to me, scolded me, etc., but then gets ambiguous and sad looking at me. I am waiting for the next session, not planning any quick moves and with the intent to use all my support methods to keep myself together.

Thank you for reading till here. I will appreciate any thoughts and any views. 
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Rev
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Relationship status: Divorced and now happily remarried.
Posts: 1389


The surest way to fail is to never try.


« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2021, 01:01:03 PM »

Dear Rev, Gems, all

while I have not posted to this thread for a long time, I want to come back, as I feel the need to do so. Life was too fast since summer. And I think the thread above is a good intro.

Long story short: we are now fully and orderly separated, taking weekly turns in caring for the kids in the family  apartment while using another apartment during the lonely week. After some chaos I initiated and implemented this system in October, as she started another affair. Life got into a bit of order then. I told her I would divorce her if she did not stop that affair and she did stop it. I got a lot of energy from the new order and I had set (already back at the end of 2019) a boundary of keeping up until the end of 2020, unless there is a progress by then. It did seem getting better, we started talking, we were going to couple therapy, we even went out for a dinner when it was possible for once (which was a disaster).

I think I am starting to slowly understand SET: support, empathy without mentioning myself and then, if the first two work fine, true. It takes time, but it bears fruit. I manage to get messages across that would be impossible a few months ago. I managed to install some boundaries: while talking on the phone - she learned that if she keeps scolding me, I would SET warn her and then hang up. She had to accept that she cannot interfere with my time with kids - I asked her not to come to the apartment then, as it was always a mess. If she asks for something, I try not to answer YES/NO, I listen and ask. On kids (she has a lot of rules for me) - I told her the discussion needs to be mutual, my wants and needs also being reflected, if she wants to impose her (very dynamic) rules. I spent a lot of time just trying to listen to her, keeping her on a subject with questions - that helped a lot to get an understanding of what was going on. Video calls are much better than face2face meetings.

But then Christmas came, she got drunk the Sunday before and, as agreed after a previous similar incident, I asked her to leave the apartment when it was her turn to take over the kids (she did). The next day she asked me to come over, saying she did not feel well psychically after this. Suddenly, I dropped all the defences and agreed immediately. I came, ate and watched a movie with her. Only after that did I realise that I something was not in order - there was only a very unclear invitation to come back, a request to stay, but nothing to address the year-long crisis in our relationships, no reason given. She did not want to talk, perhaps she was just tired and sick. As I found in therapy last week, I was overwhelmed by fear that I would drown in a reality I worked so hard to avoid and lose the entire structure I erected. I had to leave.

She got, over the course of a few days, more and more angry, the incident grew into a huge proportion. She had been already feeling sick then and as she was later told she needed surgery (not life threatening, not urgent, and I had been asking her to get a check-up for a few months already), the meaning of the incident developed: I left her in a life threatening situation the same as her father did again and again when she was small. I abandoned her. She got more and more mad with me, so we progressively limited our communication to almost nothing over the last week.

As my deadline of 31 December expired and I had no solution in sight, I got more and more depressive (my therapist says it sounds rather like an anxiety attack). Also, I made the mistake of limiting the use of my support network of friends (COVID, new year, etc.). I felt I needed to act and the only action on my list would be divorce. Which would be obviously an explosion, abandonment fear at its worse and a full blow war over kids and finance. However, while I am ready, rather than risking a mental illness, using all the tools, I trust I could navigate that even though it would be tough and bloody. I still do not want a divorce.

Nonetheless, just before Christmas, on a couple session, our joint therapist admitted that he did not know what to do with our conflicts. So, as the session concluded, I gave him a present - the book Hold me tight from Sue Johnson (I tried to tell him before, but he would not listen, and looking for another one is not an option). Emotionally Focused Couples' Therapy described therein addresses most of marital conflict as a representation of attachment fears, which fits very well with the definition of BPD. The therapist did read the book over the holidays and applied it in the first session in the new year. We opened a door that had been shut for long, in myself (I was willing), but she did also step back at points, stop blaming me and describe her feeling (of the abandonment). Near the end, as we got into a fight, the therapist, who tried to be so neutral for several months, not advising divorce or reconnection, told me to shut up when I was getting ready to raise divorce and ultimately, she made the decision to continue with the therapy. I felt very good and she was nice after that.   

While I am writing this, the situation remains very very inconclusive, there is a very small light very far away... she got drunk again, lied to me, scolded me, etc., but then gets ambiguous and sad looking at me. I am waiting for the next session, not planning any quick moves and with the intent to use all my support methods to keep myself together.

Thank you for reading till here. I will appreciate any thoughts and any views. 

Wow... good for you for doing all this work. 

My first thought is to encourage you to keep working at setting your boundaries as a way of communicating your needs. 

I am curious - did your therapist actually use the words "shut up?"  that part isn't so clear to me. 

As for the rest, I'll take time to re-read in so I can grasp the entire thing and not miss important details.

Hang in there.

Stay safe.

Rev
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gleglo2000

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Relationship status: close to divorce
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« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2021, 01:14:30 PM »

Thanks, Rev. No, actually not. He said something like “perhaps we can discuss this next time when emotions will calm down”, but the fact that he stepped in itself was so emotional for me that I used a bit too strong language.

Your words are a sound support. All the best.
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Rev
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« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2021, 04:42:54 PM »

Thanks, Rev. No, actually not. He said something like “perhaps we can discuss this next time when emotions will calm down”, but the fact that he stepped in itself was so emotional for me that I used a bit too strong language.

Your words are a sound support. All the best.

So - thanks for clarifying. Here's the other piece that sticks out for me as a flash point that might be distorting (like a computer virus distorts things) your perception.

You write...

As my deadline of 31 December expired and I had no solution in sight, I got more and more depressive (my therapist says it sounds rather like an anxiety attack). Also, I made the mistake of limiting the use of my support network of friends (COVID, new year, etc.). I felt I needed to act and the only action on my list would be divorce. Which would be obviously an explosion, abandonment fear at its worse and a full blow war over kids and finance. However, while I am ready, rather than risking a mental illness, using all the tools, I trust I could navigate that even though it would be tough and bloody. I still do not want a divorce.

The impulse to "do" is so strong in our culture. We are a culture that is so results oriented ... responsible people put in the time, they do the work, they produce the results ... they know that the key to success is that 10% extra.

It works really well for most things - even relationships. Until you are in one with a pwBPD. And then, it causes panic attacks.  I have suffered only two in my lifetime - they occurred in the first month of separating from my now ex wife who has a diagnosis of some kind that I have never been privy to.  I was trying to figure out what to "do" too. Pretty much everyone I have read here asks the same question - what should I "do"?

They happen, I think, because like a circuit breaker that pops, something in our nervous systems pops when we unconsciously realize something - that our actions are based on faulty hopes - fueled likely by a fear that we might not like the result if we stand out of our own way and stop "doing". Put another way, maybe we are not so interested in being "left behind" ourselves. Such is the basis for co-dependency.   In men, it has been both my professional and personal experience that this results from unexpressed shame coming from somewhere - either the relationship or something from our past that parallels what we are living in our relationship. If this sound like psychotherapy, it's because it is.

18 months after the separation agreement was penned and I found myself in a place where I had to write a cease and desist, I have come to a conclusion about something that I might have "done differently" that would have saved me either A) pain and suffering and money that I did not need to suffer or B) saved the relationship.

And the doing looks like this

A) Where the relationship was concerned - I should have put the ball in her court much, much sooner. As in - my love, please decide what you want and stick with it for longer than two months.  Because I love you, I will with wait this out with you.

B) I would have focused less on what I was "doing" to "support" her and focused more  on what I was "doing" internally to accept things I knew where not acceptable in the name of wanting to be a supportive husband.

Pay attention to that anxiety attack and listen to the lessons it has to teach you. It does not want to be silenced. Stay away from coping mechanisms to help prevent another one as much as tools to tolerate and learn from the challenging emotions that triggered it in the first place.

I hope this makes sense.  A little rambling... 

Hang in there.

Stay safe.

Rev

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« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2021, 12:38:56 PM »

Dear Rev

I cannot imagine the pain and sorrow involved in writing a cease and desist order against someone you loved. I read a bit in your history to understand more. Your sharing helps me to keep hope and believe in what I am doing (or, rather, not doing).

Your comment made me consider a few issues, thanks for that.

Codependency - I had been reading on codependency some time ago, but was lost, it did not provide an explanation for my pain - I could not see the difference between healthy love and codependent one. Now, as I translate the terms to secure vs. anxious attachment, it is clearer and more useful. You are right that my anxiety in relationships and my general insecurity is the source of many of the problems and I will need to deal with this. Still not sure what will work, but I spent some time trying to listen to myself and realised how such anxiety may come from childhood.

Doing - yes, as soon as I have erected boundaries to protect myself (and, to the extent possible, my kids), there is not much more I can "do". I spent an hour on the phone today with her (first time after a month), mostly just listening. It was painful, she would not stop bashing me (albeit in a rather civilised manner, compared to some months ago). I was constantly asking myself, when will this be too much, when should I stop her/hang up. When I tried to SE(T) her to accept some reality, she would not. But the fact that she did come back and wanted to talk, described a bit of her abandonment fear and other feelings, made me believe that it was the right thing to do. That if I still love her, I should not now set a boundary at a point she could not accept (i.e. hang up, as long as she sticks to some very basic rules, such as not calling me names). She was exhausted at the end and I trust that it did help her a bit. As you say, I cannot do this often, but let's say once a week it may work.   

Responsibility - I am still struggling a bit to see precisely, where my responsibility ends and hers begins if it comes to our relationship. In practical matters, she fights strongly against me leaving responsibility to her. So, e.g., she wants a new car, but she damaged the old one. I tell her that she needs to get it fixed first. And obviously, I am not going to buy a new car, if we are to get divorced. She wanted a cleaning lady, so I told her it was her choice, but that I wanted her to deal with it 100%, including payment, as I am paying all bills. Well, she is still upset, but she does it. When it comes to the relationship, I leave the initiative to restore it to her. If there is talk about it, I assure her that I do want it to be restored. I reflect on her pain from the pre-Christmas incident. But I do tell her that if she starts an affair, I will start the divorce. 

Not sure that I have understood properly what you tried to say, but your reply did help. Thanks.

Take care.

Gleg.
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« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2021, 03:23:59 PM »

Dear Rev

I cannot imagine the pain and sorrow involved in writing a cease and desist order against someone you loved. I read a bit in your history to understand more. Your sharing helps me to keep hope and believe in what I am doing (or, rather, not doing).

Your comment made me consider a few issues, thanks for that.

Not sure that I have understood properly what you tried to say, but your reply did help. Thanks.

Take care.

Gleg.

Yep - you heard what I was saying and then some...  you mention "responsibility" and that is a real tough one for me still - I am aware of it sometimes, but for me it becomes really sneaky and before I know it, there I am again - over functioning.

So right back at you .

Thanks for this.

As for the cease and desist - it was really hard, but the circumstances were severe enough and her emerging new relationship SO dysfunctional, my lawyer was really clear - write this letter now, or suffer the consequences of not drawing the boundary later on.  Tough in the moment - bought my freedom in the long run.

Hang in there.

Stay safe.

Rev
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« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2021, 11:58:37 AM »

Hi there,

let me give you an update on this, as I think that things took an interesting twist.

I took to my heart what you (Rev) wrote about listening to the anxiety attack. At the same time, I was reading John Bowlby's Attachment, which is an ingenious book and made me realise that my own anxiety in attachment relationships comes probably from the early childhood experience of being in a nursery from before the age of one; having no other strong attachment figure than my mother, who left me there, and to a limited extent my grandma, I developed a very anxious attachment and detached significantly from my parents and siblings. I spent some time reimagining the fact of being left, as my mum described it to me, and it was actually quite powerful. I managed to sooth myself in the stage of despair when I was left alone, not being able to access the act of my mother leaving and a nurse taking me away (protest). Nevertheless, it had tremendous effects of reducing stress and realising where and how my general insecurity comes about. I finally opened it this morning with my therapist, which just proved the point (he could have helped me realise it many months ago... or others, many therapists ago). This initial exercise gave me some more solid ground for dealing with my wife, although there is a lot more work to be done. Also, it explains how come my boundaries were so weak or rather inexistent that I allowed her to just trespass as she wanted to and how my anxiety, once I started building them, made me so inflexible that I hurt her badly.

Last weekend, I found out that she started another affair. I told her right away that I was sad and would ask for a divorce and within three days I sent her the draft divorce accords, which I had readied already some time ago. She was extremely angry, shouting at me in the phone that she would find out where all my money is in court and very upset about the proposed arrangement, which indeed was very fair in my view, giving her a good living and an apartment to live in. We were supposed to go to the couple therapy on Friday, which I asked her to keep, so we did. I also told her that I did not want a divorce and that if she would agree to sign the papers, we could put the actual divorce on hold and try to get back together. In such case, I would agree with her requests for a new car, etc. For a while, she somehow stopped yelling at me (after about a year) and discussed this with me calmly.

In the session, she took out the expected attack and I reiterated the idea with a stalled divorce, which the therapist caught upon and said that it would provide me neither with the emotional security that I actually sought (her back with no affair) nor with the financial security that it was designed to secure on its face. He was right, I had to agree, I dropped the idea. He then went on to explain how divorce will make things easier, which made me explode: this is what I am hearing all the time and it makes me upset, such value-empty approach, giving the same value to the solution of a marital crisis through divorce to a genuine solution, just due to the fact of not knowing what the genuine solution is. Somehow, we walked away quite close to each other, I took care of her a bit, as she did not feel well, she came home to see the kids, who were elated to the ceiling.

After the session, I realised that her two requests, more money and a car, did represent for her a signal of security in the relationship, even though she did deny that when asked directly and in spite of the fact that she usually asked for it yelling at me, which made me refuse firmly. I decided to give these to her, even though she says it is too late. I also realised that the "tough love" approach to her affair (i.e. divorce) is a non-sense, as it just escalated the conflict (up to a separation, it was likely ok). The only sensible solution, if I want the relationship, is to show her how it hurts me and let her make her choice.

I do not know, what will happen, but I can now more safely accept her with all her issues and accept my anxiety (e.g. when I have the urge to call her), rather than suppressing it. So I am still happy that I hold on with this, even though I am quite angry with all these therapists (more than a dozen) who failed to help us see this, both in individual and couples' setting.

Glad that you are here.

Gleg.
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« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2021, 07:27:47 PM »


I do not know, what will happen, but I can now more safely accept her with all her issues and accept my anxiety (e.g. when I have the urge to call her), rather than suppressing it. So I am still happy that I hold on with this, even though I am quite angry with all these therapists (more than a dozen) who failed to help us see this, both in individual and couples' setting.

Glad that you are here.

Gleg.

Well done Gleg.  One step and time - and time will tell. In the meantime, your own anxiety is in your hands regardless of what she decides, and that my friend is a real step in the direction of clarity. Only you know what you are able to absorb and every situation is different. If you've done some looking into my previous posts, then you know that in my case, she went over a line that puts her into a whole different category.  BPD with NPD traits is a volatile combination - mentally and physically. And so my story is not a great one to compare with.

As for the therapists who "did not catch it" - well there it is. A lot of mediocrity out there. I've been in an out of therapy for 20 years - in my line of work it's prudent for me to get a good head cleaning every two years regardless - In that time, I can say that I have only met one who was truly excellent and one who was really, really good - and I don't represent a difficult client. I've had better help from mentors who care about me personally than therapists with an agenda.

Hang in there bro. What ever happens, I hope your heart grows.

Rev


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« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2021, 05:14:05 AM »

Friends,

a month has passed and many things have happened. We started off still separated, switching kids on a weekly basis. I left the divorce matter rest for a bit.

I have been listening to my anxiety and working with it. I realized that it was a source of a lot of anger and that I built a lot of my boundaries with such anger, which is not the way it should be. I also learned that once I deal with the fear, I can be much more flexible on many boundaries. I found a new therapist trained in Emotional Focused Therapy (individual), a very respectful lady, and the first session was very good. Waiting for the next one.

I read High-Conflict Couple and then Fruzzetti's paper on DBT with BPD couples and realized that my expression had been very inaccurate all this time. While what I wanted was to be with her, I had been all around with threats of divorce, boundaries, separation. I decided to change this. I have also seen his lecture on sources of BPD in families and realized the immense power of validation, so I took another turn at learning this. It seems that it could not really have worked while my anxiety was not dealt with.   

A few days into February, BPw broke down, allegedly because of issues at work. She went over on some painkillers, pehaps booze. I spent the day with her, just validating, soothing. She has been on "sick" leave since then. A few days later, her mum called me that she was unable to take care of the kids, so I picked her up and left the kids with the grandma. I spent the evening with her until she was ok. That was her week with kids. I kept on validating any time we spoke. There were a couple of cases where I considered an intervention when I felt through phone that she took something while with kids, I was on the edge, but kept back, which I think is important to let her preserve her self-worth. I also spoke with MiL several times, focusing a lot to avoid triangulating - MiL also needs a lot of validation.   

Two weeks later, we had a session with a couple therapist - a psychiatrist - trained in couple EFT. Unfortunately, when arranging it, I had not yet read the Fruzzetti paper, from which I learned that EFT was contra-indicated for pwBPD. Based on advise from my new therapist, I decided to leave the matter to the couple therapist. Well, not such a good idea. My dear wife was at her best, totally manipulated the guy, just told him whatever he wanted to hear, then told the same thing to me, how she wants a divorce, etc. He then made me accept that the relationship was over and there was nothing to keep saving. He literally said "this just happened to you both", as if there was no responsibility on her side. Well ok. We went home, agreed the terms of the divorce, me at my limit financially, she asking whatever and blaming me for everything. I kept on validating, she left a bit sad.

The next morning, my phone rings, she calls me asking what I want her to buy for my trip with the kids and then she breaks into tears. This continues for a few days, even as she moves to her current guy for the weekend. On Sunday, she should have taken over the kids at our country house, as the kindergarden was just closed due to covid, but she suggested over the phone that I stay overnight. She came totally devastated, in pain and distressed - apparently due to the divorce becoming so much real. I validated and soothed her and in two days, she was ok, back at her moods. But this time, I could already manage and there was, over the four days we spent together, only one instance of me setting a hard boundary. Otherwise, validating and saying what I wanted was enough.

She did send me back to the city for the weekend, then called me back earlier (it was her week with kids, now it is mine), and is still planning to get out of the house tonight for the guy. This is killing me. I have been working a lot on acceptance vs. change, accepting most of the behaviours vis-a-vis the kids for now: she, with all the validation, gets much better at controlling herself and I see that the kids need to see both her struggle (especially the younger, who is more pre-BP) and the possibility of taking a firm, but loving stance to aggression (for the older, who usually either withdraws/cries or fights back). I most likely need to accept at least temporarily even her affair - while knowing that this is such a significant attack on my self-worth that the process may result even in changing my will to stay with her. I lost it yesterday when she spoke to the guy on the phone complaining about me while I washed the kids and asked her to give me the phone to ask him whether he feels comfortable dragging a mother from two kids... which lead to a big explosion, her guilt and shame flying high.

Also, I often have difficulties validating succesfully - she picks up on anything that is too obvious and gets angry that I am trying to manipulate her. So I had to almost stop using any words that designate emotions, like "anger" or "fear", and the best approach seems to be not to say much at all, while listening and nodding.

Well, a long post. I think I have made a lot of progress personally and I feel, in spite of the very dark moment coming tonight, that we are on the right track. At least I am doing what I want to do (and not what many psychologists, as well as my BPw, would want me to do).

Thanks for your support, being here helps a lot.

Gleg.
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« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2021, 07:41:54 AM »

Hey Gleg,

Thanks for the update - yeah - EFT not a great fit for people with personality disorders.  DBT is perhaps the only way to go... 

As for the rest, I'll read it in more detail later.

Hang in there.

Rev
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« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2021, 11:06:09 AM »

Friends,

a month has passed and many things have happened. We started off still separated, switching kids on a weekly basis. I left the divorce matter rest for a bit.

I have been listening to my anxiety and working with it. I realized that it was a source of a lot of anger and that I built a lot of my boundaries with such anger, which is not the way it should be. I also learned that once I deal with the fear, I can be much more flexible on many boundaries. I found a new therapist trained in Emotional Focused Therapy (individual), a very respectful lady, and the first session was very good. Waiting for the next one.

I often have difficulties validating successfully - she picks up on anything that is too obvious and gets angry that I am trying to manipulate her. So I had to almost stop using any words that designate emotions, like "anger" or "fear", and the best approach seems to be not to say much at all, while listening and nodding.

Well, a long post. I think I have made a lot of progress personally and I feel, in spite of the very dark moment coming tonight, that we are on the right track. At least I am doing what I want to do (and not what many psychologists, as well as my BPw, would want me to do).

Thanks for your support, being here helps a lot.

Gleg.

So Gleg,

As I reread everything with all the ups and the downs in it - I hear two things at the base - at least from the outside of your situation - As you get  your anxiety under control, hers seems to be rising. As you try to set boundaries to make things more manageable for both of you, together, she ratchets things up in the opposite direction.

It would seem then, that the logical path forward for you is to continue to hone your self awareness and coping skills along with that so that things remain manageable for you. And then, she can make her choices regardless. 

Some of this reading into your story may be projective on my part, because now almost two years out, I see this same dynamic as having been very present in my five year relationship. When I began to stop JADE-ing (at the time I didn't even know that term) then gradually the tide shifted and she became more predictable. If she hadn't have lied so much to me at the outset of our relationship, meaning she had soo much to hide, then the dynamic changed enough that we could have worked on the relationship. As it stood, in my case, it provided me with different clarity and she simply released me from the marriage (although I paid the legal bills because she was carrying about 30 k in debt).

Hang in there ... I think you are on a very healthy path.

Rev
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« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2021, 05:34:21 AM »

Dear Rev

thanks so much for your support. It helps me a lot.

While I remain very sad about the entire situation, I feel already much calmer. Since I decided to accept the fact that she is seeing this guy and am trying to process the sadness and anger generated thereby, my attitude to the relationship started to evolve. As this week went by, I decided that I also want to move ahead with the divorce. Well, unless something major happens in the next few days, as she keeps sending conflicting signals and I see that me becoming more stable and accepting produces much uncertainty on her side (e.g. suddenly wearing the engagement ring that she had not for the last five years, forwarding funny WhatsApp messages, etc.).

Reading No more Mr. Nice Guy recommended through this forum also helped to clarify some more points that I had not discovered until now: my need to please her and the fact that I was never satisfied with what I was, always thinking that some day in the future, I will be changing a lot about my life (getting a more praiseworthy job, having a good relationship, etc.). So now, while I still validate her when she gets upset, I try to stop short of accepting responsibility for her mood.

@Rev - sorry, if I overstep, but to reciprocate, I would like to point out two things that I noticed while reading your references to your own pwBPD -  a general feeling that you may have some guilt to process  and one noteworthy inconsistency:

... my now ex wife who has a diagnosis of some kind that I have never been privy to.

she went over a line that puts her into a whole different category.  BPD with NPD traits is a volatile combination - mentally and physically.
   

Not sure whether I hit the point, I have not read all of your other posts, but I just felt I should point this out, as I am getting close to finishing this thread without a happy end. Happy to join another thread, where you address your own life (just have not found it). 

Thanks again for all the support, this is a good forum.   

Gleg.
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