Have you ever felt "despirited" in the relationship

[Cromwell]

or felt in any other way that the spirit had a role to play in any of the dynamics that went on.

[Rev]

or felt in any other way that the spirit had a role to play in any of the dynamics that went on.

Hi Cromwell,

Could you say just a wee bit more?

Rev

[Cromwell]

Hi Rev

I find it one of the more difficult questions to ask, but this experience alongside everything that I can relate to in terms of being characterised heavily by psychological measures - there have been moments where I felt a spiritual connection and in those moments a form of energy, new found awareness and direction.

I felt in harmony with the spirit and the more I got in sync with it, it gave that drive, it transcended the clutter in my head, it brought clarity and focus. I liken it to a kickstart on a near empty battery. It is a mystical aspect, one that has featured and has been present but one that I have rarely given any emphasis or made any in roads to try and discover.

If I asked myself, did I feel despirited at times - yes, it for me felt like I had gone out of sync with myself. this then manifested itself in the sufferings I endured, it is intervowen that way. Then I would sync back to it and it would give some drive again, when I would try to make the relationship work - in tune with the hope that I had, but it was a spluttering form of piecemeal driving force - I tried to engage it, I wanted to be in sync with it - but the best I got was enough to not feel a complete empty shell as my role in the relationship. I was still despirited, but not entirely. It worked for me and against me, and vice versa.

On the morning that I got the text from her, and it was the invitation to continue that day into its conclusion as a participant in her games, I had already become so whittled down having just drawn on the spirit to resemble the means to keep fighting for the relationship - the text amounted to me in that moment to surrender and feel despirited - to stay in the relationship perhaps as long as she would allow it - to be there as an entity but a spiritually void one.

Id lost all spirit to fight anymore, for her, for the relationship to continue, but as soon as I yielded to that, I found a new form of replenishment, renewed strength to be channeled towards a different effort. Id found the spirit became more in sync towards a new direction I took on. It has since then became more in harmony, as much as a guiding force. Getting in tune with it recalibrated myself from where I was - how I relate to her, to nature itself. I never 'lost' her for instance, never 'had' her either, never had to view it cognitively as such, never had to 'fight' for the relationship even though it had become constructed as a battle - one that the spirit was asked to fight, drawn upon to do so - did so - but as a reluctant and gang pressed participant.

amongst so many academic discoveries and getting into touch more with my emotions, it has been an experience that has made me more spiritually aware, I recognise the spirit as having had featured, I guess so many of my roads of discovery have felt as if they did not incorporate or seek to acknowledge the presence of the spirit at all and this post I felt something of a need to do just that.

[Rev]

Hi Crom,

So yes - totally experienced the same thing. As you can tell by now, I am a pastor who sits on the edge of inter-faith dialogue - spiritual but not religious as well.   So there are lots of examples in the Christian faith of what you describe.

The one that really comes to mind is - whoever seeks to save their life will lose it.

And another now that I am writing - the only sin that is unforgivable is a sin against the holy spirit.  When I read this, I don't see it as such a terrible sin that there is no way in
h--- that it can be forgiven but that its about free will. If we go down a road that pulls us away from the spirit of harmony then then only we can choose to accept grace and find our way back to a spiritual wellness. (Think about the fruits of the Spirit - Faithfulness ,Self-Control, Patience, Goodness, Gentleness, Joy, Kindness, Peace, Love) Yes - totally I was dispirited. My ex just sucked the life out of my faith - until one day I just could not abide with what I saw. It was so bad that my the sound of my voice had physically changed - or at least that's what one of my friends told me.  My faith disappeared from my preaching and teaching.

Thanks for this.

Great post.

Rev

She is also a pastor and it was literally killing my faith to watch her hurt one person after the next. There are dozens in her past.

U=

[BDR]

My 20 year marriage with my now diagnosed BDP wife has been the most difficult yet beneficial time in my life . It took me from a very self centered driven man to a spirit led and spirit filled life . I learned how to Love as met Jesus on the road . I battled heavy oppression and depression to the point of asking to be taken out of this world . i witnessed  a battle within my spouse some times hourly between choosing self indulgence and fulfillment vs self giving . A still small voice guided me through many trials - sometimes I followed with out doubt and other times wavered . In the end as a true brother in faith pointed out - the battle was for much more than a marriage it became a battle for a soul as my wife spiraled into pills, alcohol and sexual addiction. I was powerless to stop her. I truly love her and am broken over the loss of a marriage and a partner and future together , but I did not desert or abandon her . I gave her to one much greater and more loving than me , all that was spirt led as I my self do not have the capacity to get through this and raise to daughters without help beyond man.

[Rev]

I truly love her and am broken over the loss of a marriage and a partner and future together , but I did not desert or abandon her . I gave her to one much greater and more loving than me , all that was spirt led as I my self do not have the capacity to get through this and raise to daughters without help beyond man.

Come to me all you who are weary and I will give you rest - for my yoke is easy and my burden is light.

So many men in my ministry have understood what you have so clearly understood and yet remain themselves so misunderstood.  Thank you for sharing.

Rev

[Cromwell]

Rev and BDR

Faithfulness ,Self-Control, Patience, Goodness, Gentleness, Joy, Kindness, Peace, Love

It struck me to read this list and acknowledge to myself how far away I was getting from any of these during the relationship, I wanted them, but the day to day lifestyle was not conducive to realising them. It took me so long even afterwards to find these features back, to the point where I felt at times I had lost them for good.

Going to the shops with her, sitting together by the beach, walks in the countryside. Even if no drama would actually occur on any given occassion, it did not matter, as I got experienced with the potential for explosive drama on other occassions, it just led to that unnerving unsettlement. I can see how when I got to this stage, that by itself was a form of despirited for me, when I felt this is the way it will go and there is nothing I can do to change it (besides leaving her).

It has also been the most difficult emotional experience I have ever felt, one that has been far from easy to even comprehend and figure out why. On the face of it, there is plenty that I could rationally pick out and see what the various problems are - but at an emotional level, far deeper rooted and somewhere interweaved I believe is how it collectively impacted on a spiritual level that occurred to me only at certain moments when I felt the need to 'tune in' to it, so to speak, it gave me in those moments a sense of calm in the storm, which equates to giving energy and some momentum. I realise that the high octane lifestyle that brought with it anxiety was something I felt gave the relationship "spark", but in hindsight was energy sapping.

I notice how much vitality is back again, how easier it also is to tune in to the spiritual element of how I relate to it in life at a point where there is less noise going on to distract and drown it out. BRD, you have been through so much and have still found a beneficial aspect to it, I feel that it took time for me to find this as part of an ongoing changing narrative, it helped make it less of a tale of despair which had became the primary theme.  Thanks so much to the both of you sharing on what is a topic I found difficult to talk about but in doing so has brought even more awareness and a sense of needed calm to go with it.

[Vincenta]

Hi Cromwell,

Not quite sure if we have had/ are facing the the same kind of experience...but perhaps something similar...?

I was with ’my’ DBPD for  altogether six years - where more than the last more 4 years were already so bad ( both emotionally as well as sometimes physically) that I seeked help, and prayed. And started to feel heavily that the whole relationship is a ‘ sin’ in a way (both according to Bible as I was breaking against my own values and harming myself) , but also did not bring the best out of me, did not give time/ energy or inspiration for anything good...quite the opposite, the relationship just sucked out all my energy.

I am out now, but barely - still have the longings for the ‘good times’ ( that were all of just an illusion only).

It is hard.

But at least I am now again here, damaged, but healing, and most importantly, with my own clear core values.

Regards

Vincenta


 

[Vincenta]

Oh, an addition still: my ex pwBPD was eager to join the church services, important to me, during the first almost two (honeymoon) years.
Both his Catholic ones or my Lutheran ones.
Both really seemed to calm him down.

Until the splitting started - then he just refused to go any church, everything related to religion etc was just s-t etc.

Sigh. Should have left right there and then. But thought that it were just a ‘ phase’ in his BPD ( well, it was not).

[Vincenta]

The darkness I had to witness ... is still taking its toll, and I, as well as you and many other survivors, have to get over it, but it takes time, patience and a lot of self- searching, self- love, a network of good support,  and often a good therapist, too. .

Not easy, but am happy to hear how far you Cromwell are already!

Regards

Vincenta

[Vincenta]

The darkness I had to witness ... is still taking its toll, and I, as well as you and many other survivors, have to get over it, but it takes time, patience and a lot of self- searching, self- love, a network of good support,  and often a good therapist, too. .

Not easy, but am happy to hear how far you Cromwell are already!

Regards

Vincenta 

[l8kgrl]

I appreciate this thread.

I feel that I normally have a lot of joyfulness and positivity in my spirit. Not only did this get sapped over the course of my r/s, but I kind of wonder on an energy level (if you believe in that) if people like this are actively "stealing" our energy so to speak.

My situation was also a bit confused by the fact that my ex claimed to be very spiritual and was eager to "guide" me. He talked a lot about how important religion and spirituality are, he liked to meditate and was into other spiritual practices. I almost feel that he intentionally used some of that as a means to manipulate and again, tap into my spirit or energy. I think this was part of me slowly becoming depressed and confused. You're right, it's not just mental or emotional, it's spiritual.

I'm tired so not sure if this is making sense.

But I am thankful that as the months go by, I am feeling more and more like myself. Being able to connect with my own soul has been an important part of this process for me - doing yoga, meditating, journaling, etc. Just learning to trust myself again. I believe that our connection to God or whatever you choose to call it is within us and is important to our healing. This may be through nature, music, laughing with friends, or just quiet time alone.

I also believe somewhat in reincarnation and that maybe we meet certain souls over and over and try to learn from each other. I don't know if that means that these experiences were "meant" to happen. I'd like to think that we could also learn from more positive, loving experiences...

[Rev]

I don't know if that means that these experiences were "meant" to happen. I'd like to think that we could also learn from more positive, loving experiences...

I hear what you are saying on that front - the way I tweak it for my own experience is that what happened - and she too "guided me" and turned out to be a total and utter fraud - is that this was "meant to happen" in the sense that there where soft spots in my own faith and world view that encouraged me to choose to ignore red flags. I made that choice - out of hope in the first instance - out of a lack of courage in the second - out of spiritual fatigue in the third.  Until a moment of grace happened.

My ethics professor (and somewhat mentor) said in class one day - matter of factly - that helping professionals had a moral duty to make sure that they continually worked on their personal lives to essentially do the right things and also do them for the right reasons AND (very demanding she is) to clean up our own personal weaknesses in that regard.

That day - something in me shifted - and I realized that blaming my ex for what was happening in our marriage was a cop-out. In the end, I had a choice to make - which I did - and since then - my cup overflows, even in the darkest moments of anguish for what it was like to live in an abusive environment.

Karma does come into play. Today, a year later, my ex who also works with vulnerable people has been taken off the front lines and essentially dismissed - being reduced to free-lance work writing promotional content.

I feel emanicipated.

Rev

[FindingMe2011]

Id lost all spirit to fight anymore, for her, for the relationship to continue, but as soon as I yielded to that, I found a new form of replenishment, renewed strength to be channeled towards a different effort.

Lived these words to the T, as did many on here...Its humanly impossible to be emotionally responsible for 2 people, it will kill you, literally. That form of replenishment was no more than your subconscious not allowing you to be abandoned, for me it was close to annihilation (narcissistic extinction burst) That child in me didnt want to go back, The aftermath of the breakup proved this to me. So yes thinking i had a lightbulb moment and all would be well, was one of the many lies i told myself in order to not hit rock bottom. Ironically it was where ALL the answers were. I wish you well, Peace

[JNChell]

Hey, Crom. Good topic. Short answer? Yes, I felt that my spirit was broken quite often within the relationship. With that being said, I need to hold myself accountable for that. I didn’t take the time to get to know her, and I didn’t really know enough about myself.

We got pregnant 4 months in. She mirrored me hard core and I ate it up. That says a lot about where my self esteem was and how desperate I was to have a partner. I did everything backwards and found myself trying to fix everything that was going wrong. I couldn’t keep up with it (her). Something was always wrong.

Men require certain affirmations and validations. Especially in a family environment. Being appreciated is one of those. I felt the opposite. I bought us a house on a beautiful piece of property. I bought everything. I got her a vehicle. A lot of material things were involved. I was working a 12 hour night shift. I had no life except to provide. I took a $7 an hour pay cut to take a day job because she said it would help with our relationship, but it just got worse. She became more hateful. I began to feel like I wasn’t living up to her standards in a sense. She hated me, but needed me until she didn’t anymore.

She still continues to use our Son as a means of control. If she’s mad at me, she’ll withhold him. She doesn’t understand that that is harmful to him.

My spirit isn’t broken, but it’s tattered and pissed off sometimes.

The feelings with her were very powerful. Factor in a child and I was all in. I fought hard for her. I believe that I compromised my self esteem, values and virtues in that fight. I lost myself in her and that is no place to end up.

[Rev]

My spirit isn’t broken, but it’s tattered and pissed off sometimes.

Very interesting - I just finished an MA research project on the Male Victims of Domestic Violence and Abuse.  Inevitably, men find themselves not broken so much as picked apart. Inner resiliency and an a strong sense of self based on positive emotions seems to be the only path forward out.

In one study in Finland, men were seen to tend towards positive emotions before negative ones.

[JNChell]

How do those studies affect your beliefs? Does geography play a part in how men feel? I understand that Scandinavia has laws that are less harsh and more equal for men and women when it comes to family issues.

Being picked apart doesn’t feel good. It’s hurtful and embarrassing.By nature, a man wants to feel proud. I don’t think that that is something that should be changed by force or opposition.

Men and women are different, but work very well together when they’re not interrupted. It’s not about who does what, it’s about the outcome of who does what. Who fills which roles with diligence. Who is the best at filling those rolls? All of this bullPLEASE READ that is going on doesn’t come close to asking these questions. Reality is being buried. You seem reasonable. What do you think? How do you relate your studies with what you’ve read here?

[Vincenta]

Hi guys,
Hmm, may I as a woman jump back in?  :)I thought that the original topic of ‘ despriting’ was kind of ‘ neutral’ and universal...?

Moreover -Rev, as a Finnish- Swedish woman ( although living abroad for decades), I also would be interesting in hearing more about the study you referred to?

And JNChell - I am a woman and by my very (personal) nature, also want to feel proud. And I do not think that men and women are so very different at all - we are all just humans, with our personalities and strengths and weaknesses.

[Rev]

Hi guys,
Hmm, may I as a woman jump back in?  :)I thought that the original topic of ‘ despriting’ was kind of ‘ neutral’ and universal...?

Moreover -Rev, as a Finnish- Swedish woman ( although living abroad for decades), I also would be interesting in hearing more about the study you referred to?

And JNChell - I am a woman and by my very (personal) nature, also want to feel proud. And I do not think that men and women are so very different at all - we are all just humans, with our personalities and strengths and weaknesses.

So - here is the reference... and one study does not a total truth make. And yes, my best guess is that geography as it pertains to culture makes a huge difference.  Most of the research I had access to was from Britain and the United States. A little bit in Canada and this one that really stood out.   

It's not about Domestic Violence and abuse - it's about healthy family dynamics. Extrapolated, it's gives some insight (among other factors) as to how men can be socialized to suppress red flags in relationships.  All people do this - why it happens is cultural.

Once you get past the cultural piece then yes - human relations are human relations. And then the notion of being de-spirited becomes very universal. The call to make this a genderless issue is increasing. (There is work to do mind you - in the city I live in - 1.5 million - there is one drop in center for men - just one. There is no shortage of services for women, even though our federal statistics bureau has been reporting for decades that domestic issues are equal in terms of gender) In fact, neurological studies demonstrate that men and women are not so different and psychological studies that I read about the affects of abusive and related therapies where pretty universal on the topic - same effects - same therapeutic approaches regardless of gender. 

Here's the reference to the article from Finland.  Malinen, K., et al. (2012) Accentuating the positive, eliminating the negative? Relationship maintenance as a predictor of two-dimensional relationship quality. Family Relations, 61, 784-797.

As for how this research affected my beliefs?  I am not sure I understand the question.  If you are asking what I learned from doing the research?  Well one preconceived notion that I had going into it was the men would require a whole different kind of therapy - and that proved to be wrong.  Also I was really not prepared to hear how neglected male victims can be - particularly in North America. 

I hold out hope that our next generation (the children still in high school) who are growing up in a more fluid world in terms of gender issues - seeing thing as human issues - will advance things.  Abuse is abuse - regardless of where it comes from.  And that is the main issue at hand. 

But for now, it helps, I think, to point out some of the ways it may manifest differently in people because assessment is also a problem. But that is a whole other topic.

Rev

[Vincenta]

Thanks for the clarification, Rev!

Ok, when it comes it comes to cultural differences and equality: surely there are significant differences between e.g. Finland (often world wide pioneer in equality), North- America ( or between Can to USA?), especially  compared  to e.g.to some countries in middle- East or Africa ( actually, we should consider us to be very, very privileged to tell and pour our hearts out here, aren’t we? So many people, mainly women,  in many parts of the world,  do not have ANY chance to share their stories of their horrible abuse anywhere).

Actually,  the countries where women are well educated, equal  and can  thrive, the whole society seems to thrive, those countries are less corrupted etc. - and seem to handle the corona crisis better, too.
Moreover, men really should support feminism, too,, as the bottomline is simply to have the same rights, same pay for the same work, AND to share same responsibilities, both sides - nothing more, nothing less.

In the Nordic countries e.g. it is completely normal and even expected that fathers will also stay at home taking care of the baby, on paid paternity leave, while the mother of the child works.
In Nordic countries a very good education is almost free,  incl.good universities, as well as a good heath-care -  all  these paid by Nordic fairly high taxes...but Nordic people want to have it because of equality. Everyone should have the same chance, but then it will be very much up to the skills and/ discipline of the individual!
This might be somewhat related to the Lutheran work moral too ( all 5 Nordic countries are pre-dominatly Lutheran).

Unfortunately Rev, even in Finland , in the ‘ happiest country of the world’, there is not enough support yet  for the men victims of abuse. It is a problem that is discussed and hopefully better addressed soon. And with the new generation will  better also earlier recognized.
Abuse is abuse, no matter which gender!

However - coming back to the original topic and ‘ despriting’ experience, I believe that the human spritit is about the same, no matter if Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, atheist, woman or a man, or whatever - we all want to be respected and valued and loved - and the constant  devalidation,splitting, aggression, gaslighting,  etc in a BPD relationship can severely hurt every soul.

Vincenta









.

[JNChell]

Vinceta, I agree with you 100%. I was only speaking from my personal POV and adverse experiences. I agree with you that adversity can and does go both ways. It goes many ways in our confused society. My gut tells me that we are truly fractured as a society. It’s going Worldwide. This can’t be ignored, and people are being systematically separated and forced to face off with one another by indoctrination and false reporting.

People don’t hate each other this easily without coercion. This isn’t natural. All of these movements. Education is now indoctrination. People are being taught to hate and it’s showing it’s face.

[JNChell]

As for how this research affected my beliefs?  I am not sure I understand the question

Why did you decide to take on this research? What did you see as being problematic?

Is it possible that assessment will be a continuous problem as certain criteria are agreed/disagreed upon by the DSM decision makers?

My sister is a psychologist and is a professor. That fact is irrelevant to the conversation, but she sometimes talks about red tape that is detrimental to real mental health help for society.

Currently, the prisons are full of individuals that would benefit from a mental health facility and therapy. I’m not an educated person. What are your thoughts?

[Rev]

Thanks for the clarification, Rev!

Ok, when it comes it comes to cultural differences and equality: surely there are significant differences between e.g. Finland (often world wide pioneer in equality), North- America ( or between Can to USA?), especially  compared  to e.g.to some countries in middle- East or Africa ( actually, we should consider us to be very, very privileged to tell and pour our hearts out here, aren’t we? So many people, mainly women,  in many parts of the world,  do not have ANY chance to share their stories of their horrible abuse anywhere).

Actually,  the countries where women are well educated, equal  and can  thrive, the whole society seems to thrive, those countries are less corrupted etc. - and seem to handle the corona crisis better, too.
Moreover, men really should support feminism, too,, as the bottomline is simply to have the same rights, same pay for the same work, AND to share same responsibilities, both sides - nothing more, nothing less.

In the Nordic countries e.g. it is completely normal and even expected that fathers will also stay at home taking care of the baby, on paid paternity leave, while the mother of the child works.
In Nordic countries a very good education is almost free,  incl.good universities, as well as a good heath-care -  all  these paid by Nordic fairly high taxes...but Nordic people want to have it because of equality. Everyone should have the same chance, but then it will be very much up to the skills and/ discipline of the individual!
This might be somewhat related to the Lutheran work moral too ( all 5 Nordic countries are pre-dominatly Lutheran).

Unfortunately Rev, even in Finland , in the ‘ happiest country of the world’, there is not enough support yet  for the men victims of abuse. It is a problem that is discussed and hopefully better addressed soon. And with the new generation will  better also earlier recognized.
Abuse is abuse, no matter which gender!

However - coming back to the original topic and ‘ despriting’ experience, I believe that the human spritit is about the same, no matter if Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, atheist, woman or a man, or whatever - we all want to be respected and valued and loved - and the constant  devalidation,splitting, aggression, gaslighting,  etc in a BPD relationship can severely hurt every soul.

Vincenta

All so totally true - I would add the following - there would appear to be differences based on geography because of social context. And there would also appear to be differences based on sexual orientation - also because of social context.

In fact social context is the major determining factor in the differences between different gendered and sexually oriented people.   So my study limited itself to Male Heterosexual Euro-American Victims.  Interestingly, the most overwhelming calls for DVA to be seen as genderless came from Britain. It makes me wonder if their proximity to Scandinavia might have an impact.  In the United States - there appears to still be a divide - and this for political reasons tied to funding. Changing statutes changes funding formulas.  In Canada, typically, there is little available.

After reading over 70 sources - all except two were peer reviewed - I have come to the conclusion that abuse is abuse is abuse - human beings all feel in similar fashion - and social context must be factored in to uncover bias.

Interesting conversation.

Rev

[Rev]

As for how this research affected my beliefs?  I am not sure I understand the question

Why did you decide to take on this research? What did you see as being problematic?

Is it possible that assessment will be a continuous problem as certain criteria are agreed/disagreed upon by the DSM decision makers?

My sister is a psychologist and is a professor. That fact is irrelevant to the conversation, but she sometimes talks about red tape that is detrimental to real mental health help for society.

Currently, the prisons are full of individuals that would benefit from a mental health facility and therapy. I’m not an educated person. What are your thoughts?

DSM didn't really factor into the reading I did.  But social context really did. And so to the extent that DSM is a political tool, then yes there is bias.  See my comments to VIN earlier.

Totally agree with the prison comment.

And what led me to take this on as project?  It's literally just appeared in my head as I was trying to come up with something. Originally I wanted to do a project on the role of food in therapy and cross-cultural listening.  And then, the night I was ready to present the topic, this one dropped into my head.

And I think that is because I needed to make sense of what I had lived for several years.   It was tough to write - I was triggered often - but it was, as my supervisor told me it would be - an exercise in understanding the dynamics of self-care. I wrote it in fits and starts. And I am pleased that I did. Knowledge is indeed power - the power to step back from what is not yours to pick up.

Thanks for your questions.

Rev

[JNChell]

I am so glad that you said the DSM is simply a tool. That’s a scary thing. It’s in line with insurance companies and not for the well being of people that really need help.

I understand it being a tool, but it sounds like standardized testing.  A grouping. My sis is a Psychologist. We stay within the ethics, but she has been a big help.

I’m primed to ask you how to catch fish because I’ve been watching fishing videos. My real question is about the mental health field. My sis gave me insight. She’s a prof. I think it’s important to know the reasons why the mental health help has gone down hill. Please provide your opinion.

[Rev]

I am so glad that you said the DSM is simply a tool. That’s a scary thing. It’s in line with insurance companies and not for the well being of people that really need help.
I
think it’s important to know the reasons why the mental health help has gone down hill. Please provide your opinion.

Hi JNChell - this is only my opinion since but by distinct feeling is that mental health help has gone down hill is... money, money, money... there is no money to be made in prevention - lots in crisis intervention and even more in medications.   

There are some people who really do need meds - and meds do work - BUT - they create a dependency that prevents organic wellness.  So I'm not negating meds - because there are some disorders that require them - bio-polar being the main one.

The insurance companies - they are only too happy to buy into crappy science that says that short term help is enough. Band aids are part of the process.   No bone heals without a cast - but if the bone is not set right, it will cause other problems.  The cast is the short term help.  The proper setting of the bone - that's the deeper, longer term work.

DSM - yes, it's a tool, not the hard and fast rules.

Rev

[Lenora Rose]

I also get unsettled in my spirit. I have not always understood what to do with that feeling when it starts stirring. I have come to an understanding with myself that if God is working it is a peaceful nudging leading me in a good path. If there is a spirit of  hate, bitterness or lies I laugh at it. I know that is not the place for me. Took years to get to this understanding.