Filing Protective order with children involved. Need feedback please.

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I think this will be the first real post under this board.  I know that there is no question I need to move forward with getting a divorce and courts involved. 

I have a phone interview with the DA on Tuesday about a protective order.  She said I need to set aside two hours of undivided attention during the interview.  I am nervous.  I want to tell her everything, but I don't want to come off as scattered brained or flighty or like I don't know what the heck I am talking about.

There are two children involved, his biological son and stepson, but his stepson only knows him as dad.  His bio dad hasn't been in the picture since he was a baby).  I am currently staying in a DV shelter after having my parents help me escape with my belongings when he was not home.  Nothing has been put in place with the courts, no custody or visitation yet.  I had a couple solid questions I am needing help with.  1) Anyone have personal experience with filing a PO against the other and what kinds of questions did the DA ask or what kind of questions do I need to ask?  2) Will I get in trouble with the courts if I don't let him see the boys until something has been put into place with the courts?  Like establishing custody or visitations? 

I talked to my caseworker and asked if I would get in trouble if the boys went to go see him and he said that can't do anything to control that, but I am still on the offense.  I can't do anything to mess this up staying at the DV shelter.  I can't go back to him ever again.  I am thinking of asking the DA what I need to do about him visiting the boys.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[Frankee]

I think this will be the first real post under this board.  I know that there is no question I need to move forward with getting a divorce and courts involved. 

I have a phone interview with the DA on Tuesday about a protective order.  She said I need to set aside two hours of undivided attention during the interview.  I am nervous.  I want to tell her everything, but I don't want to come off as scattered brained or flighty or like I don't know what the heck I am talking about.

There are two children involved, his biological son and stepson, but his stepson only knows him as dad.  His bio dad hasn't been in the picture since he was a baby).  I am currently staying in a DV shelter after having my parents help me escape with my belongings when he was not home.  Nothing has been put in place with the courts, no custody or visitation yet.  I had a couple solid questions I am needing help with.  1) Anyone have personal experience with filing a PO against the other and what kinds of questions did the DA ask or what kind of questions do I need to ask?  2) Will I get in trouble with the courts if I don't let him see the boys until something has been put into place with the courts?  Like establishing custody or visitations? 

I talked to my caseworker and asked if I would get in trouble if the boys went to go see him and he said that can't do anything to control that, but I am still on the offense.  I can't do anything to mess this up staying at the DV shelter.  I can't go back to him ever again.  I am thinking of asking the DA what I need to do about him visiting the boys.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[mart555]

I never had to deal with a DA because I'm in Canada and it was handled as part of other charges my ex ended up with but I recommend the following:

- Stick to evidence. Don't ramble.  Don't tell your life story.   Unless people have dealt with someone with BPD, they will have a hard time believing our story.  It may be worth making a cheat sheet about important events and dates which would demonstrate a pattern.

- Regarding visits, if you want to restrict these you will likely have to demonstrate that he's a risk. Was he violent in front of the kids?  or with the kids?

- Write down your questions ahead of time. Maybe even make some kind of checklist for what you want to accomplish and review before the end of the call.  You'll forget stuff even with the list. We've all been there.  But this will minimize what you forget..

Others will likely chime in with more "useful" tips and recommendations

[zachira]

You have come a long ways since you began posting here. The most important thing is to give examples of the behaviors of the father of these children that most concern you and are relevant evidence for a protective order. Can you list all the behaviors of the children's father that concern you, and then think of the best examples to illustrate these behaviors?

[RolandOfEld]

Hi Frankee, my heart goes out to you since I am in the middle of waiting for a PO to go through against my wife. Congratulations on taking this very proactive and brave step towards a better life for you and your family!

I am not in the US and I filed my PO with my local police station, not DA, so some of my experience may differ but I think there are some things that are baseline in this sort of thing.

1) Be organized. Have as much evidence ready as you can (videos of abusive behavior, screenshots of disordered text conversations, e-mails, medical records of physical abuse if you have). If you have the time, put it all into one document with each event marked with the "site of violence", "time violence occurred", and "summary of what led to the violence" and a related attachment if you have.  

2) As mart555 said, stick the evidence. I don't think filing a PO is the time for a nuanced story (that would be if you sue for divorce and custody). Indeed, most people will not understand how BPD or mental illness works. Rather, at this stage, they will most likely want you to establish a clear pattern of abuse. What I was surprised to find when filing is that the definition of "domestic violence" went well beyond the physical. Phone harassment, verbal harassment, controlling behaviors, they all were considered violence too.  

3) Have a backup plan for if it doesn't go through. I expected my TPO to be processed within a few days. Now I am coming up on two weeks. I am going to contact the courts again tomorrow to see if I can get a status update. If not, I will have to restrategize with my lawyer. Hope for the best but prepare for the worst.  

Stay strong and stay on the board! You will get through this. 

~Roland

[ForeverDad]

I doubt you will get into any legal trouble by protecting the children until the court or other agencies (social services, police, etc) has an opportunity to make a custody or parenting order.  Of course, seeking the advice of a family law attorney (or a few of them) with initial consultations that are usually free or of lesser expense would be wise.

I found out in my case that my state and county's agencies considered both parents to initially have equal but undefined rights as parents.  What that meant in real life was that, without a court order stating otherwise, one parent can unilaterally take possession of the children and limit the other parent's access to the children with little or no consequences.  I believe that is how most jurisdictions handle the issue, they will step back and let the court get around to setting more specific decisions unless there are reasons to step in when the children's welfare is at risk.

In my case, there was about two months between the lapse of my separation temp order and the start of my divorce temp order.  My then-spouse refused to let me see or even talk to my preschooler.  Since he didn't attend school and she didn't have standard work, I never had an opportunity to find him apart from her care.  When I asked the police if they would accompany me to where I thought she was so a peaceful encounter could be ensured, they refused unless I had a court order in my hands.  That was when I learned of the "equal but undefined parental status".  I asked what would happen if I visited anyway and she called them.  They said they would respond immediately to the 'incident'.  Since they wouldn't help me and I didn't want to risk being arrested, I had to wait until I had my day in court.  Three months in all.

When we finally had the initial divorce hearing, the magistrate confirmed with her that I hadn't had any time with my preschooler for three months.  He wasn't outraged nor did he scold her.  He simply said, "I'll fix that."  He issued a temp order similar to the first separation TPO where she had temp custody and majority parenting while I had alternate weekends and an evening in between.  No, I didn't get any make-up time either.  Clearly my court was willing to let bygones be bygones, no major consequences, and only look forward.

Your case seems to include other parents, apparently no longer involved?  I don't know how much technical authority you have as a stepparent to one or more of the children.  Likely you have expanded consideration, even for stepchildren, since you've had to seek help from a DV shelter.  I would suspect you are able to continue restricting the other parent's access as you determine best until or unless a court or other agency says otherwise.

Edit:  One the other hand, if your spouse is the stepparent, then unless that child was adopted he has little authority to demand access even under less troubled circumstances.

I do have one caution.  Until the court has set temporary orders, you risk the other parent taking the children if you allow access to them.  Remember, there are no orders and meanwhile you are able to maintain possession only as long as you don't allow the other parent to have access or possession.  Yes, not entirely fair to everyone but it is what's practical and safer under the circumstances.

We here are so fair-minded, that is our personality trait so much so that it can hamper our perspectives when we are in hard times.  It is most certainly appropriate to set aside our sense of super-fairness when circumstances demand it.  Remember, the courts are there and they will step in if need be to ensure the misbehaving spouse gets some level of fairness.  So do yourself a kindness and Let Go that concern, just do what you have to do for yourself and the children.

Disclaimer:  As always on these peer support boards, we are not here as lawyers and none of this is legal advice, this is what we've gleaned over the years from our collective experience and hard won insight and strategies.

[RolandOfEld]

I found out in my case that my state and county's agencies considered both parents to initially have equal but undefined rights as parents.  What that meant in real life was that, without a court order stating otherwise, one parent can unilaterally take possession of the children and limit the other parent's access to the children with little or no consequences.  I believe that is how most jurisdictions handle the issue, they will step back and let the court get around to setting more specific decisions unless there are reasons to step in when the children's welfare is at risk.

I'm not in the US right now but wow FD you just described exactly the situation I'm in. My wife won't let me see the kids and there seems to be very little I can do about it until the PO goes through (or it goes to court). Your reply woke me up to the possibility that I could potentially be separated from my kids for a long time and has motivated me to take much more drastic action. Thank you for that. 

~ROE

[Frankee]

Thank you all so much for the feedback.  I am hearing both sides of the story.  Forever Dad and RolandOfEld, you are on the opposite side of this where your exbpd won't let you see the kids.  I am on the other side where I am trying to figure out what to do about letting him see or not letting him see the kids.  I wish I could have a clear answer.

I have been compiling a list of incidents where I have actual proof.  The hospital incident in January (hospital records, text messages, a disturbing voicemail, and filed a police report), a time in a vehicle where I was late to work and I have messages where I said he scared me, the last physical fight where I filed a police report, March of last year where I stayed the night at a friends house after he chocked me and I have some pretty nasty texts from him.  I have a numerous text messages and emails where he either admits guilt to something or he is verbally abusive.

I had a missed called from a detective from the local PD this morning.  He told me to give him a call.  I tried to call back, but I guess he was busy.  I am hoping he will call back this afternoon. 

I feel better with my upcoming phone interview tomorrow.  I am still nervous, but I did what was suggested.  I found the dates/times by looking at text messages and marked down where each incident took place.  I told my girl friend earlier that when I heard the voicemail from the detective, my heart started racing.  I realized that all of this was about to get serious.  I'm scared.  I want him to stay far away from me.  I don't know about jail.  I am worried if they put him in jail then he will lose his job and then it will place extra stress on me trying to pay for everything when it's hard doing it with him working.  If I have a great paying full time job, I would be all for having his butt thrown in jail, but I need him to pay a lot of the bills.

I know from my experience last year that he will do and say whatever he can to try to get me back.  He has used all kinds of tactics and I am so highly guarded right now that I'm not falling for any of his nice guy routine.  He always does it AFTER I leave him.  I am also scared of how he is going to react once he finally does get served the PO.  I honestly have no idea what his reaction is going to be and that worries me.

[kells76]

I am on the other side where I am trying to figure out what to do about letting him see or not letting him see the kids.

Frankee, would it work to have the boys give him a call? Not even Skype, just "Hi Dad, I'm fine, I'm watching cartoons" type thing?

While it might be tricky to have them not tell him your location, that could be done. Do you think the boys would do OK with not telling him where you're at?

I think Livednlearned did this with her son after she had to leave with him. She had son give his dad a call so that nobody could say "you're withholding son from dad", but also she wasn't putting him in harm's way. Like ForeverDad mentioned, letting the boys physically go with him might be risky -- he could run off with the kids out of impulsive anger.

Hopefully this helps open up some options that aren't either kids physically being with him or no contact at all.

[GaGrl]

Or have them send him a letter with a drawing.

[ForeverDad]

Hmm, it seems you're going to ask for any in-person contact be supervised.  Does your county offer fee-based counselors, supervisors or supervision services?  Best that it not be left informal up to you or one of his relatives, too many issues could arise.  Without a court order in place yet that might be impractical.

So phone calls or video calls might be appropriate to allow.  He may try to get daily or frequent ones but that could hobble your lives too much, maybe 2 or 3 per week at most.

A common pattern we see with disordered fathers is that they're quick to seek a lot of parenting time, whether to look good, punish you or thinking it will reduce the cost of child support, but in time they will return to their prior comfort level of interest in parenting.

[I Am Redeemed]

Does your DV shelter have rules for contact with the abuser?

The shelter I stayed at had a NC rule that meant the kids could not contact him, either.

[Frankee]

I'm starting to lose my patience with my ex.  He contacted my parents yesterday.  Pretending to be concerned he couldn't get a hold of me.  Then proceeded to message me and said Hey. Your mom said she hasn't been able to get ahold of you. I pray your okay. Please just be ignoring me, be out partying, be with another man, be doing anything. Please just be okay. . This is a load of horse sh!*. He's now trying to play the nice guy concerned manipulator on my parents.  I'm going to tell them exactly who he is.

I talked to the DA and she said as she is not a lawyer she can't provide legal assistance.  She did however say that since there isn't anything in place with custody or visitation, I don't have to do visits or communication until so.erjinf in is place. In the back of my mind, it sounds awful and I don't want to hurt the boys.  But not he's dragging my parents into and I won't stand for that.

I know he wants to talk to S4, but he will just do his whole boohoo, poor me, I've lost everything manipulation tactic on our 4 year old and he will ask if he wants to see daddy and tell mommy you want to see daddy.  It made sound cold, but I have spent years dealing with this type of manipulation from him, especially when it comes to the kids and I'm not putting up with it anymore.

[kells76]

I know he wants to talk to S4, but he will just do his whole boohoo, poor me, I've lost everything manipulation tactic on our 4 year old and he will ask if he wants to see daddy and tell mommy you want to see daddy.  It made sound cold, but I have spent years dealing with this type of manipulation from him, especially when it comes to the kids and I'm not putting up with it anymore.

That is a wise insight and will help you make sound decisions about how your kids interact with your ex.

Or have them send him a letter with a drawing.

That is sounding like about as far as you could safely go at this point, without supervised visitation. It allows your S4 to express his feelings for his dad without opening the door for him to manipulate S4, as a phone call or Skype session could do.

She did however say that since there isn't anything in place with custody or visitation, I don't have to do visits or communication

And maybe that's the best move at this point... especially since it sounds like his message to your parents didn't express ANY desire to talk to the kids? That seems important. He can't complain that "he desperately wants to talk to the kids" when he had a chance to leave a message and didn't say so.

[Frankee]

I talked to my mom.  I was reminded of why I don't really tell them a lot of what's going on.  She did the classic.. I don't know why you didn't leave.  I forgot how much it stings.  I've been surrounding myself with people that are supportive people.  I just feel if my child came to me and told me someone was hurting them that way, I would be livid and want to hunt them down.  She just.. well we don't want to ger in the middle of anything with you to.

I have a meeting with a advocate about the kids and figuring things out I guess.  I feel that I am still faced with a gray area on what to do with him seeing the kids.  I can't get a solid answer.  My mom even said she was afraid of what he'll do if he doesn't see the kids.  Well, anything he does crazy now will just help my case, so I don't k ow what to do.

[formflier]

What is the downside of waiting until orders and legal papers are in place prior to him spending time with the kids?

Best,

FF

[Frankee]

I've been thinking it over.  I talked to the caseworker, the DA, the child advocate. 

The DA said it would be restricted.  Meaning he can't come within 200 feet of certain addresses.  Since we have a child together, She said we have to communicate, we have a child together. Restrictive means that we can communicate, as long as he doesn’t communicate with me in a threatening or harassing manner. The protection does not involved custody and will not prohibit him from his child.

I put a recording app on my phone.  I tried it out.  I can turn the recording on and turn my phone screen off and the notifications off and it will still record.  I can do that when we meet for him to spend time with our S4.  That way if he tries to use the time for anything else besides an exchange or strictly of the kids, I will have it in recoding.

The DA said I could do it and it would be accepted in court.

[I Am Redeemed]

I chose to end all communication and attempts to allow visitation for S4 with my ex, because he proved that he would use visitation as further opportunities to abuse me and because he did exactly what you describe in trying to manipulate using my son.

He's also pulled the same trick of calling friends or family of mine pretending to be concerned for my welfare.

The legal services I spoke with said it was up to him to get a lawyer and negotiate visitation. He never did, he just continued to tell anyone who would listen about how he was a victim.

If he does harrass you and you get it recorded, are you prepared to use it in court? I'm assuming the DA is talking about the DV charge and not divorce court...or is it both?

[formflier]

I would hope that you would first get the ball rolling with some kind of support/visitation order/agreement before reaching out for any kind of visitation.

Think about the upside and think about the downside of attempting visitation.

It seems much much safer to have it in the context of a written and enforceable agreement.

This is not a time to try to be "nice" or to influence his behavior by showing "reasonableness".

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

[Frankee]

I think at this point it's moot to even try.  I'm going for eveything.  Protective order, custody, visitation, divorce.  He was carrying and on about seeing s4 and calling him.  The minute I even say I can meet tomorrow late morning in a public place to drop him off, I got nothing but crickets.  Just reinforces my feelings.  He's trying to crack me.  All he wants to do is get me to talk about things.

This point in time, I feel highly guarded.  I talked to a lot more people in actual positions to do something about all this.  The legal aid I talked to, she said in my state, since we are married, both parents have 100%.. or 50/50.. meaning whichever parent has the child in possession has 100% say in what they child does.  Meaning I don't have to allow visits.

I was planning on recording our encounter at the drop off to see if he says anything. He called and talked to S4 and said he'll try to work something out with Mommy and see him real soon.  I literally messaged him hours ago about an exchange and nothing.  Normally it would really bother me, but I'm just like.. well, whatever.  I knew he really wasn't interested in visitation, he just want to "talk". 

[formflier]

  Meaning I don't have to allow visits.

Nor does he...and that's my worry.

Let's say they "go for a walk" and don't come back. 

That's why it is so important to get your paperwork in order.  There is a pathway for him to get visitation...let him worry about that.

You have a pathway to get protection...that's where your focus can be.

You can do this!

Best,

FF

[Frankee]

I really had considered letting him visit, but I've changed my mind.  I know he saw my text message about seeing s4 tomorrow.  I sent another message saying he is available to talk.  He called, but never said anything about the visit.  Just kept saying to S4 that mommy and I will work it out.  While I'm sitting there with a WTF look on my face because I messaged him.

I'm not going to stress or feel bad about it anymore.  I put it out there, he ignored it after days and days of hounding me about it.  I'm saving today and show that I put it out there after days and days and he ignored it. 

[Frankee]

I decided to let him spend time with s4.  I don't think I'm going to let him see him again until the protective order is in place. 

My exbph is playing the manipulation card something awful and he's ruining s9's time with his grandparents.  He is getting everyone involved and making it really hard on everyone.  He's is telling me s9 is crying and wants to come home, which everytime I talk to him, he's having fun.  I told my parents to block him or stop answering his calls. 

I am worried about the drop-off and what he will do.  But I have been saving messages and recording our in person conversations to cover everything.

[formflier]

But I have been saving messages and recording our in person conversations to cover everything.

 

What will that "cover"?  It's important to realize that texts aren't legally binding.  You both are fully legal parents, regardless of what the texts say.

He has just as much right as you to take a child and (fill in the blank).

I'm not suggesting it's not important to keep communications so you can prove what has or hasn't been said, which may or may not help future legal proceedings...but there is a VAST difference in communications which might be used to prove or disprove testimony (perhaps he claims he never said xyz) and a legally enforceable protection order or custody agreement.

Can you help us (me) understand how you got to a place of making contact to hand over your child?

Best,

FF

[ForeverDad]

Can you clarify for me precisely whom your protective petition or order is to cover?  Is it only you or also the children?  I ask because if you included the children in your petition then you've just weakened your case if you requested protection for your preschooler.

I believe this is why formflier posted his question.  Collectively we've been consistent recommending you maintain your distance until you get the court's response or action on your case.  Give the case time to work out the wrinkles.

Can you help us (me) understand how you got to a place of making contact to hand over your child?

Please let us know when your son is safely back with you.

[I Am Redeemed]

Frankee,

I want to start by saying I completely understand why you let your h see S4.

I also want to tell you, from the perspective of someone who has been in your shoes, that it is not a good idea. I'm being blunt and I'm sorry, but I feel it on my heart to tell you that.

Listen, I get it that you want to be fair to both your h and your son. You want to be reasonable. You don't want the confict between you and your h to affect his r/s with his son. You think he loves his son and should see him and you worry that you will be painted as a vindictive mother if you don't. I know.

Let me say that the best thing you can do right now is to protect you and your sons, whatever the cost. If that means your h doesn't get to see them, so be it. You have recounted the manipulative tactics he is already using by contacting your parents. Please trust that these manipulations will continue with your son. I don't believe that there will be any consequences to you witholding visitation until something is legally ordered, but there absolutely will be consequences if you maintain contact with him for visitation exchanges.

Think back on how he has handled this situation before. Has he ever not used the child as a way to get to you? To talk to you, to try to win you back, emotionally manipulate you and try to get you to feel bad for leaving him when it is his behavior that made that a necessity?

His relationship with his kids is his responsibility, and if he were interested in being a good father, he would not be abusing the mother that his children love. That may sound harsh, but it's something to think about. I used to separate my H's treatment of me and his merits as a father, until I saw Forever Dad repeatedly tell members that good parents do not abuse the other parent. His words sunk in and I realized that they were true. How can someone cause such deep, lasting harm to another person and also be a good parent? It doesn't make sense.

Please reconsider any visitation for your son with your h until you have something court ordered in place. 

[formflier]

Frankly...I hadn't thought of that angle (that you are weakening your case for a protective order) and perhaps that is more important/likely than the concern/angle I was chasing after.

My concern was I picked up a vibe that Frankee was keeping all these texts so she could "prove" something.  Perhaps I read too much into it...but I got the feeling they would be "proof" or parenting agreements (see..the text says you agreed to give junior back at 3pm..so you have to do that).  

My point was he could change his mind at any point...and it wouldn't violate anything legal.

As compared to if there was a court ordered visitation and he decided to return a child late, well..the court would likely take action on that.

Anyway...also a very important point about not weakening the case for an order.

It's a reasonable question to ask.  

"If you are so afraid of this person that you want a protective order, help me understand how you feel comfortable handing a child over?"

Hope this clarifies..

Best,

FF

[Frankee]

Easy answer to the question, I guess I still have a heart and my kid was asking for his dad, so I had a weak moment.  It's not going to happen again.  I'm human, I make mistakes.  Proved that by staying with him as long as I did.  I'm learning.  I'm figuring out what does and doesn't work.  I don't believe I weakened my case at all.  I know that I'm not doing anymore visits until something is in place.  I talked to the DA, the advocates at the shelter, and paralegal. 

The paralegal told me that in my state, it's going to be restrictive.  She said "You have a child together, so you need to communicate about the child as long as he doesn't do so in a threatening or harassing matter.  The protection order does not involve custody and will not prohibit him from seeing his child.  The PO is 200 feet from protected address, not from your person."

I have been discussing everything with the correct people (DA, officers, paralegal) before doing anything.  The paralegal told me to send all text messages, voicemails, to record any phone calls and interactions.  I am also sending her all my hospital paperwork, court records from my older child's custody.  She also sent me a typed up statement regarding the PO.  Until the PO is in place, I have to enforce everything myself.  He has already set up a time and place to drop off s4.  I'm planning out every precaution for the pickup.  Collectively as of tomorrow, I am denying all visits.  That is still a hard thing for me to say, but after the last couple of days, I know I must do so.

[I Am Redeemed]

"If you are so afraid of this person that you want a protective order, help me understand how you feel comfortable handing a child over?"

Hope this clarifies..

Best,

FF

Yes. This is going to be important. I let my h guilt me into seeing s4 after the protective order. If you are willing to see him to exchange physical custody of s4 (because when he visits with him, and there is no legal agreement, he possesses Physical Custody of the child) then it might hurt your case for a protective order.

[Harri]

This thread reached the max post limit and has been split and locked.  Part 2 is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=345596.msg13116995#msg13116995

Thank you.