how did you evaluate whether to stay or go?

[oh_hai]

Howdy.

I recently accepted that my wife exhibits many BPD traits.  We have been together for a shade over a decade, married for just under a decade, and have 2 small children (aged 3.5 years and 9.5 months).  

It's been very mercurial the entire time, but some behaviors exhibited be my 3-year-old have a lit a fire under me to try to critically examine how life could be different.

I am working on developing better skills for setting boundaries and resolving conflict, as I believe they will serve me regardless of how this relationship pans out.

The big question I am wrestling with is whether to stay or go.  I am not in a rush in answering it, but am struggling with how to evaluate whether all the strife is worth the potential transformation.

If anyone has any experience they could share, I would be extremely grateful.

I wish everyone here the best.  It's really nice to know that one is not alone.

[Turkish]

What's going on with your 3 year old that causes you concern?

[ForeverDad]

Many arrive here also pondering the same question, Should I stay or go?  Continue learning communication, boundary and other skills.  Continue educating yourself about the acting-out disorders, also ponder how and why you gravitated into this relationship.

If the reason you stay is because you feel you then wouldn't be able to protect your child all the time, think again.  You already have to be apart from your child when you work, go shopping or at other times.  So you're not there by your children's side 100% of the time anyway.  If you do go, then you can provide your children a calm and stable home all the time they are in your care.  The added benefit is they could then observe your positive life example.

Give yourself some time to figure out what is best for you and your children.  Fair warning, some here found out that once they started applying this knowledge and these skills in their lives then they didn't have a choice to stay or go.  A common pattern is that the other spouse's misbehaviors ramp up more and more over time, at some point you may have accept that you have to go or else.

Let's hope your spouse is not that disordered, or at least will accept counseling together (as long as it doesn't become a one-sided blamefest) or focused therapy.  But meanwhile you have to keep all your options open.

[oh_hai]

Thanks for the empathy, ForeverDad.  Unfortunately, I think the pattern you mention may already be at work.  My attempts to make changes have resulted in a heightened level and frequency of conflict.

I am noticing my part in it all and trying to be accountable.  I am also getting better at tolerating the distress that her reactions evoke for me.  I know that whatever comes from it all will be better than the path we've tread so far.

To answer Turkish's question, I have 2 main areas of concern.  One is that my son seems to have more intense emotions than his peers.  While I am not explicitly worried about BPD, I do worry that he will need that much more help in learning to regulate his emotions.  The second is my wife's parenting.  Her reactivity is escalating and putting him in completely unfair situations more and more often.

Thanks so much for the support!

[PeteWitsend]

oh_hai - I went through the same calculus you're going through in general; I was married for 5 1/2 years, and at the time of the divorce my kids were very young (3 &5).  I pretty much knew our marriage was doomed about a 1 1/2 years into it, but toughed it out for our kids sake.  I was worried how they would cope with being alone with a disordered mother & whatever sort of guys she'd bring home.   

To answer the question you posed in the thread title, my thinking evolved along the lines of what Forever_Dad said... I couldn't be there to protect them all the time anyway. 

And by staying, I was normalizing her behavior in my kids' eyes, and letting them see it's okay to allow someone to treat you like she treated me. 

I was re-assured to read comments in various places about how as long as kids have one non-disordered parent to model behavior from, they'll be OK.  And I realized by leaving, I could give them a refuge from her when they were with me... and eventually meet someone knew and let them see what a healthy relationship looked like. 

And - this was key - I saw an attorney and paid for an hour consultation to walk me through likely outcomes at court.  I saw that I'd most likely end up with the default possession time and how much it would cost; I realized it wasn't going to be the end of the world.   

...

To answer Turkish's question, I have 2 main areas of concern.  One is that my son seems to have more intense emotions than his peers.  While I am not explicitly worried about BPD, I do worry that he will need that much more help in learning to regulate his emotions.  The second is my wife's parenting.  Her reactivity is escalating and putting him in completely unfair situations more and more often.

Thanks so much for the support!

regarding your son's emotions... I had similar concerns.  My oldest son was in kindergarten last year, and I met with his teacher and was re-assured.  I think some of the emotional intensity in his case is brought on by being around his mom.  Maybe that's the same thing in your family?

The most difficult times I have with him are usually at the start of extended visits (e.g. my month of summer possession, or holiday weeks).  I feel like his mom really ratchets up the craziness and alienation techniques, and the first day in my house is usually tense.  Both my oldest son and younger son really chill out the second day though. 

[RolandOfEld]

Hi Oh_hai and welcome! I was / am in more or less the same situation. And I 100% second everything FD and PW.

In my case, I left, and that only two weeks ago. For me, I left for two reasons:

1) The home environment had become so toxic due to my wife's behaviors that I could not function emotionally enough to truly be there for my kids. I was essentially a household chore robot that could occasionally squeeze out a droplet of loving behavior for them. Most of the time I was raging or a zombie.

2) I was in literal danger when I was there, making it almost impossible to do the things I needed to do to repair my situation, namely, seek legal aid to separate so that I could provide a stable home for my kids.

There is little you can do to control your wife's parenting approach. May I ask how the situation is allowing for you to parent? Are you able to get the emotional space you need to face your kids in a healthy mode? Does your wife subvert your parenting methods, which I am guessing are much more reasonable than hers?

~ROE

[ForeverDad]

When newer members here mention that they are concerned their child is becoming disordered like the acting-out parent, we reassure them that probably it's not that at all.  Here's a few reasons why...

First, the professionals typically don't diagnose children with BPD, it's way too young to distinguish it from other causes.

Second, many of us have seen it.  We have a phrase for it... metaphoric fleas from exposure to people with BPD (pwBPD).  Sort of how a person who found a flea would look around and wonder where it came from.

Third, those members here who had separated or divorced have noted that after exchanges and the kids are back, they'll often need hours or a day to transition back to their normal selves, their baselines, as PeteWitsend described.

Feeling some relief now?

[Marianne-11]

Hi oh_hai,

I am in the middle of divorce process right now, and it's a tough situation and decision to make. Wish you strength 

Here are some of the key reasons why I decided it is time to end my marriage:

- I did not want my kids to grow up surrounded by unhealthy relationship dynamics. I began to think how this would impact also their relationships in the future, what is the model and skills they learn from home. And it was not just me walking on eggshells, it was also the kids and I did not want their childhood to be like that.

- I want my kids to have one safe, stable and supportive parent and a home where they can be kids and not worry about their parents. I want them to feel safe to express and talk about their emotions and needs at home - and also/especially to feel joy and happiness. I am not saying I am perfect and don't ever make mistakes. My ex has his good sides too, but when BPD behavior comes into picture, it is extremely stressful for everyone and the terrible bursts of anger are not healthy at all. My ex could also leave us (in anger) for several days at time without telling us where he was, and the silent treatments at home felt as damaging as the outbursts of anger. 

- I became really tired of being afraid of the next chaotic situation and out of control rages and other typical BPD behaviors. The calm periods before the storms were not enough anymore. It was kind of like a downward spiral; when I thought I've seen it all and it can not get worse than this, it did usually get worse.

My relationship lasted for 14 years and the BPD behaviors were there already in the beginning, I just did not want to really see them or realize them. Anyhow, that is a long time, and now that I am 40, I begin to realize I also deserve (and am responsible for building myself) a life where I don't have to be constantly afraid of something. I felt actually pretty exhausted.

-  My ex was diagnosed with BPD, but at one point he quit his long term therapy and the problems began again. These days he does not think (as far as I know) there is anything wrong with him and thinks he does not need therapy. So not taking responsibility was definitely a key factor.

It is hard. I've felt a lot of guilt and sadness and have no doubt that this will be the case going forward as well. But still, had I continued the relationship, I don't think things would've improved. My ex has also been really angry at me and causing all kinds of difficulties for us. But that was to be expected, and as much as I hate it, it reminds me of why ending this marriage was the responsible thing to do.

Today I am learning to let go and trying to accept things and trust that I made the right decision. Kids miss their dad, but on the other hand I can see that they are much more relaxed at home and express their emotions (be it sadness or joy) more freely. To me that is a good sign.

I wish you all the best in figuring out what is best for you and your family. You're not alone, whatever you decide.   

[yeeter]

'How' to go about such decisions.  It is a process question, since every case is a unique and different set of circumstances and ultimately needs grounded in what YOU can do.  (you only control yourself).  And please do not interpret that to mean its all your fault, or worse... internalize that 'if only I built more skill, got better at coping, if only I could modify my behavior to make it work, be more accepting, etc...'.  That type of thinking is useful up to a point.  But part of the process is to GROUND yourself in just what is possible.

To do that my experience is that close friends arent that useful.  You definitely need some shoulders to lean on.  But the majority of the population just 'cant get it' without having lived in such a relationship.  And some things you share would just make you look like an idiot.  Plus, none of it will go away so you will end up wearing out some friendships on the topic.  (people can only stand so much bellyaching so a little goes a long ways).

Then ditto on counseling.  Get a T.  Get a T that has experience and understands these type of personality disorders.  This might not at all be easy to find.  But just like friends, there are a LOT of therapists out there that think they understand difficult personalities but really have no clue.  And this makes things WORSE.  Because they will take the traditional approach of focusing on what you can control, yourself, and what you might do differently to make it better etc etc etc.  All good stuff within the normal spectrum.  But if your wife truly does have a disorder, is only going to get you so far - and will never get you to a healthy, satisfying relationship.

So to that point - grieve over the loss of the concept of a healthy relationship.  It will never happen.  Sounds like you realize that and want to model something positive for the kids long term, so live that value.

For me, I decided that especially when the kids were younger that it was better for them for me to remain in their lives on a daily basis.  This was to help them during the deregulations, the distorted thinking, etc.  Also, knowing there would be a really strong alienation narrative if I left, I wanted to give them a chance to develop some of their own thinking and mindset in how they viewed me.  I wanted to stay in their life over the long haul and it is pretty easy for the primary parent to brainwash them at an early age against the other.  Once they are older this is harder - although not impossible.  So parental alienation is a factor, along with being there in the moment to deflect and redirect distortions, and even intervene at times when things get out of hand (punishment wise and outburst attacks, etc).  (note that in my case as the father, it is harder to get time with them so 50/50 isnt realistic as a one income earner so this gives wife a tremendous advantage time wise).  And it is the every day activities, chores, school, extra curricular in the car commuting... this is when life happens and discussions during these routing boring tasks add up to the bulk of parenting moments).  If you get to split time, and think you can effectively coparent, this makes it much easier.

Having one grounded parent is only useful if they get to spend time with them.

So all this factors in.  Do make sure you address your own behavior issues.  But dont own more than your own part of it (else you will confuse yourself with indecision).  Adjust to the degree you decide is reasonable given your values.  Then draw a line, make a decision, COMMIT to that decision (at least over xx time period), and dont look back.

[oh_hai]

Thank you all for sharing your experiences!  It is so refreshing to be able to communicate with people that seem to get so much without my having to spell it all out.  It definitely gives me some relief - especially to hear that my concerns about my son are likely not as alarming as I feared.

I really resonated with ROE's characterization of being a raging chore zombie.  It breaks my heart to think about losing out on the chance to see my kids' faces every day.  And I do share some of the fears yeeter mentioned about her willfully fostering alienation. 

I am finding one of the hardest parts of the decision-making process is the vast unknown of how she will react if I say I want to leave.  I know it will be big and dramatic, but I am not sure if it will be of the lay in bed all day variety or the raging volcano.  Or something else entirely.

The other major reluctance I have about the separation route is that we will be forced to coparent for a very long time.  And I know that she will exploit that. 

The hardest thing to imagine is if she were to magically seek help and make changes.  Does anyone living with this ever change enough to make the relationship tolerable or even somewhat fulfilling?

Thanks again for sharing your experiences.  I cannot express how helpful I find it!

[ForeverDad]

The hardest thing to imagine is if she were to magically seek help and make changes.  Does anyone living with this ever change enough to make the relationship tolerable or even somewhat fulfilling?

We do have other boards, I think Bettering a Relationship is one of them, where members discuss how to communicate more effectively and build stronger and healthier boundaries.  The reality is that we can't make the problem parent or spouse change.  We can point the way, encourage them to turn to therapy, set boundaries or limits if we are to continue with a relationship but in the final analysis the problem person has to be the one who does the work of changing and improving.

Those who find their way to this Family Law board typically concluded their spouse wasn't going to change and accepted it was time to unwind the marriage or relationship.  If at some point along the way the problem spouse had shown realistic evidence of seeking recovery many here would have explored that possibility.  That isn't reported very often.

[Marianne-11]

One more thing.. Looking back, I wish I would have understood earlier on how important it was to go see a therapist myself. And not just anyone, but someone who really knows/understands personality disorders.

Talking to a therapist opened my eyes in a new way, offered a safe place to talk about my feelings, gave strength and helped me set boundaries. It felt also good that finally I was doing something for myself. Maybe, if that is possible for you, it might be worth considering. It could be helpful which ever route you decide to take with the marriage.

Also, taking even moments to yourself would be so helpful. I know it’s not easy when you have small kids and a million things to do.

Take care!

[SamwizeGamgee]

Welcome.  It's a terrible burden you carry when you ask yourself these questions.

I know.

I regretted getting married from the outset.  I went into a deep depression, during which I was functional, and happy on the outside, but hopeless and wishing I could have undone one act in my life- that of getting married.  More appropriately, I wish I would have divorced before having kids.  I forgave myself for getting married.  Anyone can make that mistake, and you never really know what you're getting into.  What I regret is staying.  The time.  The loss. I missed red flags.  I blazed ahead.

Once we had our first kid, something took over me.  The resolve to never leave this baby.  To go through hell and back for her.  Anything. I stuck it out.  And, since we're in it, had more kids.  I was in it for them.  I survived.  I stopped living, started surviving.

I'm now starting in earnest the divorce process.  I am 50. I spent 46% of my life in a toxic relationship in which I was deeply unhappy.  Thinking of marriage gives me the sensation of drowning, or being buried alive - with the exception that those two deaths are over relatively quickly. 

I have grown immensely.  I am a better person.  I am no longer a victim, but a survivor.  Perhaps this experience was my only way to learn, to grow, to become more a man of compassion and understanding.  Time will tell.  God only knows.

It was agony staying married, and worse staying undecided. One foot in, one foot out.  Married to all the responsibility and obligation, to the liability and hurt.  Married to none of the intimacy and joy, none of the genuine love and trust. 

Only you can decide to stay or go.  A little bit you decide how and why you stay and how and why you leave.  Sometimes, the choice is taken away from you.  I respect both choices.  I lived with both choices.  I got to the point that divorce was the only path I saw to save my life.

I am glad I chose.  Not glad I took so long.  My family and friends have been really understanding (or oblivious, but harmless). The kids seem much more happy knowing there is a better way ahead - having a two home family.  This part surprised me.

My best advice is self-care.  Keep a private journal, and fill it with your feelings. Keep track of the abuses however you see them.  You'll need this validation from yourself in the future.

Love and honor yourself.  Everything you feel is valid, and most likely someone here has shared the feelings.

[still_standing]

Hello

I am 10 years out of a marriage a 16 years marriage from hell.

Throughout the 16 years - I had many people tell me to leave and I fought them all off —— “you don’t get the deep love that I have for ...” — I couldn’t fathom that this was the best thing for me —— because I didn’t ever consider me — I didn’t matter — all that mattered was trying to make her life livable - fix her.

She has 100% control of me. I thought I had my own mind but it was fully under her control.

Then one day when I was confiding in my brother about some crazy town $&% that has happened — he reaction was unexpected — I came to understand that her treatment of me was not acceptable and i was letting it happen. Another friend I turned to with the hope she would have empathy for my wife — and all she had was disgust for how I was being treated.

That started to break the spell — the brainwashing that I had been lost in.

That was the start is the end. Then fast-forward many years Of difficult recovery and I came to take responsibility for making the choices that kept me in that miserable marriage.

Then I grew up and became a whole person and when I felt I had been alone long enough to find my old self - rediscover my real self — I found a kind sweet and fair lady and got married and I could not be happier.

Ask yourself what is on your best interest - and that of your children — and follow the answer to that — i am guessing that leaving is in your best interest.

You deserve to live in peace — not walking on eggshells waiting for the next round of abuse further shattering your “self” 

Get brave and be selfish - selfish is not a bad word - it means you are taking care of your “self”

 

[defogging]

I've been there, brother.  I had gone through two years of worthless marriage counseling with my exPDw, which only worsened things.  I began researching her behaviors on my own, and finally arrived at the possibility of her being BPD.  During the same time period, family members reached out to me and clued me into what was being said about me (lazy, alcoholic, abusive, etc...which I wasn't).  The combo of the two led to me waking up from the FOG.

Over the next year I began detaching - I saw her for what she was and stopped pretending that things could get better.  Just like FD wrote, her behavior got worse and worse until I had no choice.  The breaking point was that we were getting dangerously close to physical abuse, after several years of psychological abuse towards the kids and I that was only getting worse.

I was the guy that was sticking it out for the kids.  I used to go to bed at night and wonder how old the kids should be when I leave, bargaining with myself that I could stay longer.  I was miserable.  I finally realized that it was unacceptable for me to present this relationship as a model for the kids, and once I recognized how stressed out and agitated the kids were I knew I had to do something about it.  Once I spoke with lawyers and figured out that 50/50 custody was pretty much guaranteed in my jurisdiction it was all over for me.  50/50 without her interference was way better than what I had been dealing with.  During the marriage I was lucky to get 10% of the kids' time, otherwise exPDw was controlling their activities or interrupting my parenting.  Even when I got that 10% it had to be something that exPDw approved of.

Fast forward to today (divorce finalized a year ago):  Looking back at old school pictures, the kids were gaunt and squinting, with bags under their eyes.  When I got their latest school pictures I had to look twice, plump cheeks and big smiles.  The behavior I see in them is so different.  They are free to be themselves at my house without any undue stress.  They play freely with the neighbor kids or by themselves, they will speak their opinions, they have developed confidence from me showing them how to do things, the list goes on.  My middle child used to throw up all the time, now it hardly ever happens.  She used to be extremely timid, now we trade sarcastic barbs back and forth in fun.  And the peace I have knowing that my exPDw isn't allowed to interfere in our relationships here is immeasurable.  I could go on and on about how life is better, but I will stop there and just say that I don't regret my decision for a moment.

[oh_hai]

Thanks again, everyone! Especially for your patience as I acquaint myself with this wonderful online community (which is my first).

I will definitely consult a lawyer to get some more facts about likely outcomes in a separation.

I will also cherish these reassuring stories about the improvement in the lives of your children and am so glad that so many of you have found relief, if sometimes fraught.

See you around!

[defogging]

I will also throw out that speaking with lawyers isn't a big scary thing.  Sometimes people view that as going to war, when it really isn't.  They work for you and advise you on what the laws are, and how a judge would rule if it got in front of them.  What I found is that the laws in place are extremely common sense, and the courts have a "cookbook" of how they settle divorces.  We might think our situation is unique, but the courts have seen it all 1,000 times over.

When people like us are in these abusive relationships, our view of reality becomes distorted to the PD's view of things.  When I engaged with my lawyer and decided to file, my entire world changed.  Reality was reintroduced, and the PD games were put to a halt.  All the craziness my wife had injected into our lives quickly disappeared, even the attempts at restraining orders (after I filed) were squashed because there was zero proof.  It was scary as hell for awhile, but that was the FOG speaking to me.  Once reality came back in and everything was in the public eye, we settled everything 50/50 in one mediation session.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Excellent point Defogging.
I learned that I just can't trust what I think and feel for about a day after my wife talks to me for very long. I have installed a plan that usually works which is to act like I'm listening and taking it in.  Then I try to remember to sum up.  Then I say I'll think about it.  Then after a long run (I'm a distance runner and that's my therapy space), or overnight, I usually get to where I can feel my own answer to the issue.

Emotion is contagious.  Even  my waif-type uBPD STBX has a superpower to convince me. Slow it down, clear the FOG.   

[SamwizeGamgee]

oh-hai,

I have carried around the same question you posed.  I have thought about you posts too.

What I am seeing now is that my life feels better, and goes better, when I stop making bad decisions.  When I make decisions that feel true to me, things feel better.  It was a bad decision to get married.  Then, a bad decision to stay married, and have kids.  (the kids themselves were an excellent thing however).  But, with young kids, the right thing was to stay married, and troop through it. My youngest is almost 10, and although I was trained to just stay married, it became apparent that now the right thing for me is to divorce.  Now that decision feels good.

I was staying married for fear of consequences, and obligation, or duty. I learned that solving a bad decision with another series of more bad decisions wasn't the the right way to live my life.  It sounds stupidly obvious now.  But, I was trying to make a train on one track, go to a different destination. Holding on to marriage was not going to get me to a better place.

Now I've decided to divorce.  The financial fears are still there, but, I see them more as facts.  

The fear of what will happen to the kids is gone because it's replaced with a hope for something better.  

The fear of what STBX will, or might, do, is replaced with some plans, and solutions, and support, if she does go bonkers, or persists in alienating behaviors.  I can't change that.  I can survive that.

I came to a peace inside when I figured out that the timing matters.  I had edged towards divorce, and lived separated under the same roof for a long time (still am for the time). But, I felt better once I let myself plan that I'd get a divorce - eventually.  So, remember, your answer today might be right, and later you need a new answer.  

Although I sound pretty convinced about my divorce, it's not the universal answer.  Nor was it a quick or easy answer to find.  I cannot ever tell someone else what to do, or what's right.  But, I do want to point out that your answers, and the "right thing" can evolve. Go with your inner self on that one.

[worriedStepmom]

The good news is that with your help, your children will learn how to regulate their emotions.

My SD was 2 when her parents divorced and 5 when I married her dad.  I spent several years actively working with her on how to manage her emotions, and it worked.  She's 13 now, and for the most part can soothe herself.

OTOH, my S11, who has no history of personality disorders on either side of the family, has huge difficulty with emotional regulation.  He was diagnosed with an anxiety disorder a few years ago (which often shows up in boys at around age 4) and has a therapist and a pyschologist (+ meds).  I have had to up my game A LOT to be the parent he needs.

I joke that at least our 3 kids take turns on who is hard to parent at any particular time.

Whether you choose to stay or go, it is going to be important for you to learn how to be the parent your son needs.   A therapist for you can help, a therapist for him (he's juuuust old enough), books, websites, etc. 

[Turkish]

 We have a lot of collective wisdom and discussions on the Library Board and I found one that might be helpful to start.

3.02 | Is it better for the kids if I stay or leave?

[RestlessWanderer]

Oh_Hai, I am going through a very similar internal debate. I can't lend any input on how to decide what to do. But I can offer understanding of the difficulties you are enduring. We've been married for 8 years now, together for 9. We have a 7YO, and lost our 3YO in a car accident last fall. The majority of our time together has been filled with conflict. I saw the signs early when we were dating. But, I was blinded by the amazing person that coexisted within the BPD extremes. I thought that somehow that person was bound to push the extremes out of the picture. Unfortunately, that hasn't been the case. The therapist I started seeing a little over two years ago mentioned BPD one session and eventually I looked into it. Everything I have read has raised more and more red flags and thoroughly convinced me that BPD is at play here. I wish I had the clarity as to why I stay. All I know it has been very hard for me to decide to end things. I'm not very happy and our relationship has had only a handful of good days over the last few years. But I am able to see that life on the other side offers so much more than the life that I'm living now.
I am going to keep following this thread as it sounds like you and I are having a similar internal debate.

I wish you luck and encourage you to continue to post on here. There are so many of us that are or have lived through this very difficult situation and have struggled with this very decision. It helps a lot to know that we are not crazy, stupid, or alone.

[livednlearned]

I am not in a rush in answering it, but am struggling with how to evaluate whether all the strife is worth the potential transformation.

You have good instincts, oh_hai.

It might be that your 3yo has a sensitive genotype like mom. Maybe a good way to approach this hard decision is to learn everything you can about raising an emotionally resilient child, including talking to a child psychologist about what you notice and any concerns you have.

I used to describe my son as having "big feelings." I did a lot of comforting when he was little but didn't know about validating feelings and emotional resilience until he was 10. You are fortunate to be learning this now while your son is still young. The first six years of life are so important.

My son started to fall apart when he was 8 (suicidal ideation) and that's when I began to take seriously what was happening in our family. I started to learn important skills to help stabilize S8 and began talking to professionals. It doesn't take much sunshine shining on our family dynamics for borderline traits to escalate. Eventually, attempts to heal my son led to major dysregulations from his dad.

For me, if I could not raise our son skillfully in the marriage, especially given his predisposition to emotional intensity, then the marriage wasn't viable.

I wish we weren't put in positions of having to choose, but unfortunately I think that's how BPD perceptions work. You must at all costs not threaten the status quo, even if the status quo is destroying your child.