He tossed out insults at the slightest pushback Part 6

[UBPDHelp]

This thread was split from this discussion:https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=345413.new#new

So...when you reflect back on "the trash incident" (or whatever you want to call it) what did you learn about yourself?

With the benefit of hindsight, anything you would want to do differently?

Best,

FF

Well, I’m still not willing to do it when there is zero reason he couldn’t do it for himself.

Next time, I would say something sooner assuming H was in a place to receive it.

Many scenarios so would require tweaking but that’s the general idea.

[UBPDHelp]

How are you feeling today UBDPHelp?    Any self care on the agenda?

Hi ‘ducks. Doing okay. Work is hard. Hard to get up to speed, long hours...but chance for independence when I catch on and get some security. I continue pushing forward.

I’ve been taking time at the end of the day to just do my own relaxing time. Get kiddos situated and collapse into books, tv, or music. And plenty of sleep.

to be honest I have read this thread over a couple of times and am somewhat confused by it.     perhaps there is some murkiness around boundaries and what they are, what they aren't,  and how to enforce them.

What would I be if I weren’t confusing you?  Is it rhetorical? Am I serious?

I guess I would say, I think I’ve grasped boundaries intellectually.  May not impose them perfectly.

A lot of times my thread is just sharing my thoughts/questions/concerns and although touches on a needed boundary, often it is not fully formed.

setting and holding boundaries is hard.    like most things in life it's not a one and done.    finding and enforcing successful boundaries is skill you learn over time.   most people learn early boundaries from their childhood and then refine them in adult relationships.   sometimes this doesn't happen.

It is. I believe I possess many unspoken ones, ones that many people possess. It seems the ones I need to hold when dealing with H are:

1. Regarding things that shouldn’t be needed  — screaming or otherwise ranting insulting demeaning things
2. Respectful engagement — I’m not a moron if the bottom shelf didn’t get dusted...by the way, you could also dust it
3. Angry outbursts, say at the dinner table. Mad kid 4 hasn’t mastered a knife and is then called a mental patient (I put my foot down on that one hard and fast)
4. Will not being a party to manipulations.

I’m sure there are more...but these are specifically needed with H BUT NO ONE ELSE.

boundaries are (of course) about us. Learning to set healthy boundaries means learning how to express your needs effectively.

'I have been over functioning and overly responsible for the household chores in my relationship.    I want a balance of household chores that is based more on mutual respect.'     is the beginning of a healthy boundary.

"I care that someone cares so little about me that they simply feel it is my job to follow them around and pick up their mess. It is not acceptable. "

these are different.    Now I am sure you are thinking 'ducks is nitpicking here,   what is the difference,... don't these both get us to the same place?   let me say they both are valid feelings/thoughts.  both have value.   neither is wrong.   neither is right.

they might get us to nearly the same place.    It matters how we get there.   they take us down different paths.  

boundaries do not generate a quid pro quo.   boundaries are not about I do this... you do that... boundaries protect and control one person only... the person who has the boundary.  

I understand.  

do you need more boundaries now?    well I am going to say No.  even though this isn't really a yes/no question.   a year ago you operated in mostly the same environment (minus the pandemic of course) and found ways to make it work.    a year ago you would have picked up the dishes and food trash and never blinked.  Now, you have changed.   How you see things have changed.     you can't back up and go back to the way things were.    you need more boundaries now for you... to protect and respect your understandings and needs.     the boundaries will support you in your new life.   if the boundaries change him that will be incidental/secondary to the goal of taking care of you.

'I have been over functioning and overly responsible for the household chores in my relationship. '    so by not picking up the dishes and fast food trash you were successful in this boundary.   you didn't over function.

Yes, but who wants to live like this. And, admittedly, I could have done differently too.

 'I want a balance of household chores that is based more on mutual respect'   this part is still a little fuzzy.    how does one go about getting a balance of chores that is based on mutual respect?    we can debate forever that most people have some understanding of shared responsibilities.   we can go through bunches of examples.   and it is all kind of a moot point because that isn't the situation you find yourself in.  your husband doesn't understand shared responsibilities.    maybe he should.   but he doesn't.    he has very little experience in sharing responsibilities.    he doesn't naturally identify them.    he doesn't see trash as his job.    can you accept that he doesn't see life this way?   I am not saying agree with.   I am not saying approve of.    if you want more mutual respect in chore sharing you have to work with what you've got.   you have to meet him where he is.   for the last 20 years you've told us he hasn't taken one bag of trash out...   changing that will require effort.   a lot of patient communication.    it might not be worth it.    that's up to you.     I'm not advocating for anything other than you take care of you.   that you go down paths that lead you to healthier and calmer places.

'ducks

Agree. Maybe it’s not a boundary. Maybe it’s a relationship wish/requirement.   

He’s trying to be better to me. I still don’t trust that he can. And the strangest thing happened...I’m not sure I’m even interested in him trying. For years I couldn’t understand why he didn’t think we/the family were worth fighting for. Now, I feel like it’s my peace I’m fighting for. Which means no longer fighting for us. I just don’t feel like I care.

I keep dreaming of this comfy bed with snuggly covers and getting a really good nights sleep and waking up happy and refreshed and not stressed about getting yelled at about goodness knows what. And, having a normal day and laughing at dinner with my kiddos.

Not much, but amazing dream. I don’t think I can let go of it.

But, oh this pandemic is really throwing a wrench in my plans. He still won’t go back to work and is already starting in about another wave and shutting everything down again. Unbelievable.

I carry on. Get some job security and plan, plan, plan.

Thanks ‘ducks. Appreciate you not giving up on me.

[UBPDHelp]

Yes..this..THIS!  

Circle this back around to my pushiness (or however you want to describe it) about squashing the notion that "he'll never change...or truly change or real change".

There is some capacity to change...isn't that debate over?

Some capacity. My belief is not big enough and not sustainable.

IMO the real focus over the next few months is "It took X amount of effort to get Y amount of results."  As I look at myself, my life, the energy I have to devote to life I cho hose to focus my effort on (fill in the blank)

The above thing seems like a recipe for success to me.

Agree. Stuck here for a couple of months anyway. I will try to hold boundaries and see if anything truly improves. What else have I go to do?

The following is a summation of a thought process that I believe leads to further giving away your power.

"My hubby is not capable of true change, therefor my only choice is to (fill in the blank)"

Can you sit with those two "thoughts" for a while and then share your opinion about why one of them retains your power and one of them hands it away.

Best,

FF

Yes, one is about what I’m doing and willing to do and whether the result works for me.

The other is just a response to his actions.

Subtlety, subtlety, subtlety...

Thanks FF

[formflier]

 What else have I go to do?

Umm..well I think there are several divorce lawyers to interview and gain an accurate view of what divorce looks like.

And also..

Gain an accurate view of what delaying divorce for 6 months or a year looks like.

And when I say accurate I would suggest for now that what "the masses" on BPDfamily tend to agree is accurate and it appears to me the "masses" on BPDfamily are nudging your points of view towards their view of "accuracy".

At the end of the day I'm really hoping that you make a decision by evaluating accurate data and making a choice, instead of "accepting a default".

Defaults "He'll never change so I must divorce"

"I'll never be able to make it on my own, so I must stay.."

Both of those are (IMO) equally horrid reasons to decide something.

Subtle...yes there is lots of this.

And also what you perceive as subtle and what you perceive as clear will change based on how wide open your eyes are...how many possibilities you are willing to consider.

A slight nudge from FF here.

Are you really able to consider a valid possibility that your husband is OK (or clueless) that leaving trash about is OK or shouldn't be offensive to you?

And to be clear I do think you should also consider the possibility the is doing it solely to pizz you off.

Once you are able to equally weight those, then you can have a "honest" or "accurate" debate (search for knowledge) about what is "likely" based on what we know of the mental illness your husband displays.

Read that last one several times.

Right now (IMO) you are far too ready to attribute (fill in the behavior) to him being vindictive, azzhole, etc etc...instead of going..."that's what this mental illness is"

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Umm..well I think there are several divorce lawyers to interview and gain an accurate view of what divorce looks like.

I would like to do this. H is around 24/7 and it is near impossible to get enough guaranteed privacy to do so. When I spoke to the first attorney I started the call with I may need to hang up quickly.

H is also terrified of pandemic and so time away from home is hard to coordinate at a specific time for a scheduled call.

He has said 3 times he was going back to work. He has not. Now he’s convincing himself it’s coming back (we are in an improving state, currently) so he says he may not and what’s the point of working. Just let them take everything.

Do you think this is his mental illness?  Is the “normal” stress?  Is this fair to make me/family feel even more uncertain in what are already uncertain times?

I have followed his lead many times despite expressed concern on approach. He always offered reassurances. I don’t want to blindly follow him off the cliff.

And also..

Gain an accurate view of what delaying divorce for 6 months or a year looks like.

Looks terrible. But I need to know my job is secure. It’s difficult and dealing with all of this dynamic makes it even harder. But I need to get past my probationary period and also don’t think I could rent/buy with a new job yet.

Attorney thought I could stay in house and he would need to leave. Courts are partially open and huge backlog, so not sure it’s wise to push this and be stuck together. Sucks. And so I may end up being the one to go.

And when I say accurate I would suggest for now that what "the masses" on BPDfamily tend to agree is accurate and it appears to me the "masses" on BPDfamily are nudging your points of view towards their view of "accuracy".

Please elaborate.

What do you believe the masses are saying?

What makes you believe that is incorrect?

At the end of the day I'm really hoping that you make a decision by evaluating accurate data and making a choice, instead of "accepting a default".

I don’t believe in any way I am picking by default. I have asked a zillion questions. I have wanted to know why H did things and what they meant. Remember all the reminders I was focused on him and his behavior. Part of that was attempt to see if correctable, BUT much was grasping to understand what was mental illness vs just bad behavior. Didn’t know how necessarily to use it BUT all of it has been part of the process so it wasn’t a simple default decision.

Do you disagree?

Defaults "He'll never change so I must divorce"

I see this more as...

He’ll never change so I must divorce. He will continue to call me horrible names, attempt to shame me, yell at me, scream at me, he will break things in anger, not hold his own weight, he will continue to “need” vacations (yes, he “needs” one now), he will continue to be financially irresponsible and he will continue all his manipulative, narcissistic behaviors so I must divorce.

That seems more accurate. What do you think?

"I'll never be able to make it on my own, so I must stay.."

Well, no job or way to support myself and kids made leaving difficult.

Got the job. Really trying hard at it. Paid off my bills and credit cards, getting into better financial shape. Coming up with plans.

It will be hard, but I can do it.

Both of those are (IMO) equally horrid reasons to decide something.

In the simplistic form, yes. With solid reasoning behind each and effected change, they become better/corrected.

Subtle...yes there is lots of this.

And also what you perceive as subtle and what you perceive as clear will change based on how wide open your eyes are...how many possibilities you are willing to consider.

I would say my eyes are pretty wide open. What scenario do you believe I am not considering?

A slight nudge from FF here.

Are you really able to consider a valid possibility that your husband is OK (or clueless) that leaving trash about is OK or shouldn't be offensive to you?

And to be clear I do think you should also consider the possibility the is doing it solely to pizz you off.

Once you are able to equally weight those, then you can have a "honest" or "accurate" debate (search for knowledge) about what is "likely" based on what we know of the mental illness your husband displays.

Read that last one several times.

I’ve struggled with the why he does things. Been told to focus on myself...I tried but couldn’t solely.

I believe he is a narcissist functioning at a high level when not presented with things he can’t control that then cause him stress. He is not capable to see who he is or face it.

I just don’t know that it is my responsibility to deal with it or that I should have to put my happiness (or chance at it) aside because he has a mental illness.

Remember two months ago when he said something was wrong with him?  He won’t get help. Is it my forever problem to deal with?

Right now (IMO) you are far too ready to attribute (fill in the behavior) to him being vindictive, azzhole, etc etc...instead of going..."that's what this mental illness is"

Best,

FF

I have to disagree. A large part of why I wanted to know WHY he did things was to understand if he was just a normal breed of a$$hole or if the behavior was mental illness.

Ultimately doesn’t really matter because if he is unwilling/unable to change, then it’s up to me.

Knowing what you know about my H, would you honestly think it’s tolerable to continue?

Thanks FF

[UBPDHelp]

Hello all,

You all have been so helpful, so kind of surprised by no comment. Maybe it’s all been “talked” to death, idk.

I know what I want, or at least what I want that I can have. Maybe that’s my overall stuck point.

It’s a really strange time compounding an already difficult time/decision. I’m trying to gain confidence to do it alone, but the responsibility of keeping kids safe and providing for them with resurgence of pandemic is kind of scary. I’m trying to take a step back because I want to weigh validity of concern(s) against ensuring it’s not an excuse to not take action.

I don’t think so.  My new job is hard.  I’m getting the hang of it and think when I understand their processes, the job itself is what I do and am good at. I’m hopeful, but let’s face it, still in the probationary period. When that’s over, my self-propelled financial repair will have reaped benefits, so I’m using that as a target decision/action date.

With the new job, in many ways H has been better (timing closely aligns, but also to when I told him his bad behavior is entirely unacceptable). You might think he was just happy I was contributing more. I don’t think that’s it. I think he sees it as chance at more independence and may be afraid of that. I still don’t believe it will last, but I’m careful to not go down a mental self-fulfilling prophesy or hold some kind of jaded view that doesn’t allow redemption. Just at the point he has to prove he can rather than the other way around.

I’m attacking messes a bit differently and think it’s helping, but again whether there is actual change remains to be seen. Just wanted to share that I’m not drawing firm lines in the sand everywhere. Work together. We’ll see.

I did want to go back to this as I’ve thought about it over several days...

Right now (IMO) you are far too ready to attribute (fill in the behavior) to him being vindictive, azzhole, etc etc...instead of going..."that's what this mental illness is"

I understand that maybe it might seem this way, but it’s actually the question I have been asking from the beginning. Is this behavior normal a$$hole behavior or is this NPD/BPD (or just plain ole mental illness)?

So for the rather long list of behaviors I despise and have been subjected to, after many years, what is “normal” behavior vs what is mental illness-driven behavior is cloudy to say the least. Knowing which allows for different possibilities and approaches.

Anyway, I hope you all haven’t given up on me. I do appreciate the assistance sorting things out.

  

[formflier]

I'll speak for my part...my decision to "stay silent". 

It's obvious you are spending lots of time on your job (  ) and also the "firehose" of BPD knowledge and our observations has been on full blast for a while. 

Many times instead of shoveling more in, it's better to let what's in there marinate...and let you have a period of reflection.

We're still in your corner! 

Knowing which allows for different possibilities and approaches.

I'm interested in an example of this..

Best,

FF

[formflier]

I’m attacking messes a bit differently and think it’s helping, but again whether there is actual change remains to be seen. Just wanted to share that I’m not drawing firm lines in the sand everywhere. Work together. We’ll see.

 

Yes..double and triple yes! 

Being able to reflect...being able to "step outside" a conflictual" situation  (wait..all stop  FF just made up a word "conflictual") and made a deliberate and thoughtful choice for you to act differently going forward is awesome!  I see that as you testing and taking back your power..your autonomy...your choices.

Love it!

Also see great wisdom in stepping back from "lines in the sand".  "Lines in the sand" are kissing cousins to "waving a cape at a bull"...they usually get the same reaction.

So...if I was a fly on the wall watching "attacking messes differently"...what what would I have seen months ago and what would I see recently?

Let's take this to the next level.

See if you can connect the dots from what you have learned...to the new choices you have made ...to what you expected the outcome to be...to the actual outcome of "the mess" and your new choice.

Wow...that's quite a thought chain, but I would suggest a productive one.

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

I understand that maybe it might seem this way, but it’s actually the question I have been asking from the beginning. Is this behavior normal a$$hole behavior or is this NPD/BPD (or just plain ole mental illness)?

for me, what I believe is that words create worlds.   Words create worlds and I need to be very careful how I use them.

for me, what is true is that I received many great gifts from my Ex.   I got the gift of  more emotional intelligence.   I got the gift of acceptance.    I got the gift of understanding differences.     I got to be more wholly human because I participated without defense or distress.

for me,  I watched my Ex in a manic state cry for almost 36 straight hours.   sometimes she screamed.   the medication didn't help much.     I learned compassion.    I would not wish the illness she suffered from onto anyone, even for 15 minutes.     I truly hope she finds peace, and comfort because every day she lived with something dangerous inside her, that could rear up and destroy her.    she was and is the bravest person I know.   she told me she was never really sure if her brain was lying to her but she got up every day and made a stab at figuring it out.

for me, what I experienced was she was my finest hour,  my wildest dream come true and the most painful thing I have ever felt in life.    

for me,    I grew to appreciate the glorious complexity of the human experience.    in all its shades and colors.

I suspect you are going to tell me I haven't answered your question.    but I have.  

and you can too.

[UBPDHelp]

Yes..double and triple yes!  

Being able to reflect...being able to "step outside" a conflictual" situation  (wait..all stop  FF just made up a word "conflictual") and made a deliberate and thoughtful choice for you to act differently going forward is awesome!  I see that as you testing and taking back your power..your autonomy...your choices.

I appreciate made up words...sometimes the only way to express yourself!

I’m trying. Trying to step back and be thoughtful with my actions. Both to him and to me.

Love it!

Also see great wisdom in stepping back from "lines in the sand".  "Lines in the sand" are kissing cousins to "waving a cape at a bull"...they usually get the same reaction.

Regardless of where we are today or yesterday, I didn’t start with lines in the sand. Rather it was the opposite. No stated (to myself) boundaries, more unspoken expectation of respectful behavior. I had that growing up, witnessed it so I guess I came wholly unprepared for the need for them until far too late.

Once feeling taken advantaged of, drew some hard lines (not all were).  Some hard lines are needed and I won't relinquish those.

So...if I was a fly on the wall watching "attacking messes differently"...what what would I have seen months ago and what would I see recently?

Used to get up in the morning and just clean up whatever mess happened, wherever it happened, after I went to bed.

Once he started really lashing out on me, I just resented these messes more. Zero reason he couldn’t know that when he was done, he should clean up. Some days he would literally have 4-5 glasses and napkins/paper plates left on the end table. Now, if I see him make an effort to return most to the kitchen, I just finish off. Not ideal, but slight improvement.

Let's take this to the next level.

See if you can connect the dots from what you have learned...to the new choices you have made ...to what you expected the outcome to be...to the actual outcome of "the mess" and your new choice.

Wow...that's quite a thought chain, but I would suggest a productive one.

Best,

FF

I do see some connections. What I’m struggling with is the amount of effort I must exert to effect improvement, especially when I believe most healthy relationships come with much of this behavior as standard course. Thoughts?

[formflier]

  especially when I believe most healthy relationships come with much of this behavior as standard course. 

Which behaviors?  This is a place to get specific..

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

for me, what I believe is that words create worlds.   Words create worlds and I need to be very careful how I use them.

for me, what is true is that I received many great gifts from my Ex.   I got the gift of  more emotional intelligence.   I got the gift of acceptance.    I got the gift of understanding differences.     I got to be more wholly human because I participated without defense or distress.

I agree. And that currently adds to the confusion and guilt and questioning if I’m being selfish.

I don’t know if I can get back to participating without defense or distress. I will try. Idk.

for me,  I watched my Ex in a manic state cry for almost 36 straight hours.   sometimes she screamed.   the medication didn't help much.     I learned compassion.    I would not wish the illness she suffered from onto anyone, even for 15 minutes.     I truly hope she finds peace, and comfort because every day she lived with something dangerous inside her, that could rear up and destroy her.    she was and is the bravest person I know.   she told me she was never really sure if her brain was lying to her but she got up every day and made a stab at figuring it out.

I understand this. My guess is you mean that you learned compassion in this situation. I’m certain you always had compassion, I know I did.

I believe that he killed that in me for him.

I still feel sorry for him often that he is so tortured. I hope to get to a place where there is not anger on the back side. I’m not there yet. I believe that may only happen when I am not subjected to his behavior.

for me, what I experienced was she was my finest hour,  my wildest dream come true and the most painful thing I have ever felt in life.    

for me,    I grew to appreciate the glorious complexity of the human experience.    in all its shades and colors.

I suspect you are going to tell me I haven't answered your question.    but I have.  

and you can too.

I do understand. I agree. I often tell my kids the world is wonderful and God made us in all different shapes, sizes, colors, likes, dislikes, interests because it would be awfully boring if we were all exactly the same. I have love and respect for our differences in addition to our shared experiences.

My kids. I would do all of this again for them. Without H, I wouldn’t have them.

And he does do nice, helpful things. He just does incredibly awful things, too.

So...to find my peace...story unfolding...

[UBPDHelp]

Which behaviors?  This is a place to get specific..

Best,

FF

Many

Put your dirty laundry in the hamper. I have told him explicitly that I find it disrespectful to throw his dirty clothes ALL over the floor, furniture and expect me to pick it up.

Not take out the garbage ever.

Pick up your own messes ever.

Ask how my day was.

Respect that when I’m tired, I know to go to bed.

Not fight about everything. Not try to manipulate to get your way every time.

Respect I may feel differently.

Idk, there are lots of things.

[UBPDHelp]

  To help clarify why I struggle with what may seem mundane things, minimum levels of respectful behavior, I’m going to share one rage text, adjectives adjusted for privacy.  Please keep in mind, this is one of many copy/save/resend messages he has sent, often in rapid succession and with my initial response to please stop.

Don’t forget a girl is born with every egg she will ever have. So whether you let his xxxx inside you without protection or were okay risking it, you were okay with him fertilizing and being the father of everyone of our kids.  Don’t think this is something you did that got by me and think about when you talk about our kids. You were perfectly okay with hillbilly trash true love being their dad. You made this known to the world with your xxxxxx.

HOW COULD YOU HAVE DONE IT. REPEATEDLY. HOW. HOW. HOW. AND WITH SOMEONE LIKE HIM if you were supposed to be here with me when it’s everything I loathe? HOW?  Hillbilly, your love for hillbilly was greater than all of this and you did anything he wanted. The life you could have had. We could have had. But you enjoyed it.

That is abbreviated some and the most PG of them all. 

So, I put these all away and don’t spend time on them, but they certainly impact my desire to put in effort to make this better. For what?  More of this? 

Idk...just sometimes you have to call it a loss and move on.

[formflier]

Let's imagine for a moment.

Let's imagine he is on a support group website for pwBPD whose partners are "getting healthy".

Let's imagine he is creating a list of things, similar to what you created...things he would want.

Can you list 4-5 things..perhaps even try to rank them.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

 

So, I put these all away and don’t spend time on them, but they certainly impact my desire to put in effort to make this better. For what?  More of this? 

 

I'm a data guy, so I'm interested in how many of these texts on this topic you have gotten over the past 6 months or past year.

Hmmm..that might not be useful the way I asked it because I don't want you counting on February 10th there were 11 texts and then on March 2nd he said way worse but it was only 5 texts.

Let me re-ask.  How many days did he send you text strings like this.

Note:  No rush to figure this out, since it might be distressing to go over past texts.  I would suggest waiting until you have 15 minutes.  Get yourself a favorite drink and then enjoy the drink while you scroll through and count.  Then make sure you walk away from it and do something fun/relaxing for self care.

(Note:  On the off times I need to go look for proof that my wife does weird stuff..that's my "deliberate" plan so I don't get too "down")

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

I have to dig to get the full year.

Jan 14. 4 times, some variation
Jan 16, 6 times, in response to me saying I didn’t enjoy a fictional movie character, followed by selling house value when we divorce
Feb 2  3 times
Feb 3. 4 times, 10x more vile
Feb 4 6 times, also more vile
Feb 5. 10 times. Disgustinger (how do you like my made up word?) Demand I read every word and state I did so
Feb 6 10 times. Included vile things about my mom who died 30 years ago
Feb 8. Left the house for 2 days/nights. Spent a bunch of money needed for bills
Feb 15. Going to eat out. Drove 60 mph through town (25 mph zone) because I didn’t zip my coat in car (hard while sitting) and everyone can see I’m fat. Sorry, zipping the coat doesn’t hide that. Sent 5 vile texts after refusing to go
Feb 16 threat message to answer his demands
Feb 18 left again
Feb 19 went to work when I was showering and left front door wide open.
Feb 19. Let him know dinner was ready. Replied with picture of me and exbf from 30 years ago and calling me Mrs. exbf
Feb 20 back to hotels, no communication. (4 days)
Feb 22 still days later 5 disgusting texts.
Feb 25 came home but disgusting texts, exbf
Feb 27. Wanted sex. 3 rage texts.
Feb 27 More rage texts
Feb 27 third round of rage texts
Feb 27 and another
Feb 28 more same
Mar 4  3 rage texts.
Mar 9  6 rage texts
Mar 13. Home with pandemic, this has all been pretty documented.

Replay this 2 months on repeat for a year. And keep in mind virtually all that was texted was also spoken.  

The other messages would make your toes curl. What I shared is so mild by comparison.

You tell me. This is no way to live.

[babyducks]

So, I put these all away and don’t spend time on them, but they certainly impact my desire to put in effort to make this better. For what?  More of this?  

Idk...just sometimes you have to call it a loss and move on.

You tell me. This is no way to live.

I'm going to be as clear as I can be.    I hope you can take this message on board.

I don't care two flying figs if you stay with your husband or divorce him.    

move on,  stay...that's your choice.    

what is important to me is that you are as comfortable as you can be with your actions, own them as yours and understand how to enact them with minimum disruption to the family.

regardless if you stay or move on he will be in your life as the father of the children.    you will be interacting with him for the rest of your life.

[UBPDHelp]

I'm going to be as clear as I can be.    I hope you can take this message on board.

I don't care two flying figs if you stay with your husband or divorce him.    

move on,  stay...that's your choice.    

what is important to me is that you are as comfortable as you can be with your actions, own them as yours and understand how to enact them with minimum disruption to the family.

regardless if you stay or move on he will be in your life as the father of the children.    you will be interacting with him for the rest of your life.

I know ‘ducks. I’m not very clear. I know I have to deal with him at least til the younger two are grown. I really just mean I don’t have to be subjected all day or maybe even everyday.

I know also that it benefits me to keep working so all my relationships have good boundaries and communication.

I’m just saying I don’t see this relationship becoming tolerable as possible even if I master these skills.

Not that they aren’t worth it for me, but I believe won’t actually make this marriage work. Will it be enough with co-parenting communication?  Perhaps.

[formflier]

I have to dig to get the full year.

No need to dig.

Are all the texts you listed "rage texts" or are the ones listed "just" the texts where he does the "hillbilly" thing and talks about a prior boyfriend.

For the second condition where it's just the texts about hillbilly and old boyfriends are there additional rage texts.

Basically I'm trying to get the gist of "how bad" it was in total and about this one particular issue.

So for simplicities sake, just stick with the list you created.  Is that total or just hillbilly.

Now..switch gears.  In the last week how many hillbilly texts?  How many rage texts?

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

No need to dig.

Are all the texts you listed "rage texts" or are the ones listed "just" the texts where he does the "hillbilly" thing and talks about a prior boyfriend.

For the second condition where it's just the texts about hillbilly and old boyfriends are there additional rage texts.

Basically I'm trying to get the gist of "how bad" it was in total and about this one particular issue.

So for simplicities sake, just stick with the list you created.  Is that total or just hillbilly.

They are not mutually exclusive for the most part. Some of them hit on both and back again.

Some are so long, they don’t fit in a normal text and come with ellipses to pop out. I have never gotten a text so long.

Most of these he has saved somewhere because he can rapid fire them at me.

And, I reiterate, they are 10x more vile than what I shared.

Now..switch gears.  In the last week how many hillbilly texts?  How many rage texts?

Best,

FF

Only a few mostly since I made it a boundary, which coincides very closely to pandemic lockdown (we’re still all home). You may think that’s a win. I believe he knows he’s stuck. He may even suspect I have copies of them — remember he makes me delete them.

He did rage text me I wanted to start a war when I moved an electrician appointment two weeks and forgot to tell him. Not a normal response.

That started selling house, etc. Two months ago was divorcing, co parenting and giving him his name back. Most of that was in person.

He tries to be pleasant, but he breaks sometimes. And that break is not sharing disappointment in something, it’s nasty.

So while he doesn’t have the “safety” of rage texting from afar, I believe that is more likely the reason.

[babyducks]

With the advent of cell phones, there is a permanent invisible connection between the partners, causing both to lose their identity and struggle to act as individuals (enmeshed relationship state), increasing the problems of the pwBPD to regulate emotions.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=137370.0

A phone can be used as a means to control like a leash. And it is not good if a pwBPD learns the habit of pulling the leash and we stop in our tracks and come running. It is a sign of no respect. It increases enmeshment. It breeds anger because we are never good enough in playing dog.

An0ught wrote that a bunch of years ago.   it's still very true.   I don't doubt you that there are more of them or that they are upsetting.   

what I would suggest you think about is how you are letting yourself be upset by them.    or how you use these texts to reinforce your own thinking.

are these great texts?   Nope.    are they appropriate.   Nope.    do they define you?   also Nope.   do they force you to act in certain ways?    Nope.    do they take power away from you?   Nope.     

[UBPDHelp]

With the advent of cell phones, there is a permanent invisible connection between the partners, causing both to lose their identity and struggle to act as individuals (enmeshed relationship state), increasing the problems of the pwBPD to regulate emotions.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=137370.0

A phone can be used as a means to control like a leash. And it is not good if a pwBPD learns the habit of pulling the leash and we stop in our tracks and come running. It is a sign of no respect. It increases enmeshment. It breeds anger because we are never good enough in playing dog.

An0ught wrote that a bunch of years ago.   it's still very true.   I don't doubt you that there are more of them or that they are upsetting.   

what I would suggest you think about is how you are letting yourself be upset by them.    or how you use these texts to reinforce your own thinking.

are these great texts?   Nope.    are they appropriate.   Nope.    do they define you?   also Nope.   do they force you to act in certain ways?    Nope.    do they take power away from you?   Nope.     

I agree. I put them away, which may be part of my problem.

They don’t define me, more so they define him. Who would do such things to another person?

But from a very tired, uncertain mind, don’t you think this represents a level of disorder that most people would not tolerate/stick around for?

I’ve stopped reacting to most of his attempts. It gets tiring, but, yes, there is more peace to be found.

Ultimately I just don’t think I have any feelings of marital love for him. Not a trace left. Not the content, but the behavior. Mental illness or otherwise, is it my life sentence?

I don’t wish him ill, I don’t want to stick it to him. I just don’t want to be in a relationship where this exists on any spectrum of okay. 

Maybe that’s wrong, but it’s what I’m capable of.

[babyducks]

But from a very tired, uncertain mind, don’t you think this represents a level of disorder that most people would not tolerate/stick around for?

UBPDHelp - who are you debating this with?   Me or Yourself?

Can you give yourself permission to do what you think is best for you?

[UBPDHelp]

UBPDHelp - who are you debating this with?   Me or Yourself?

Can you give yourself permission to do what you think is best for you?

Ha!

No, I’m looking for outside validation because I don’t entirely trust my judgment.

I get that’s bad, but I feel this way and question (likely from years of being second guessed and told I’m a terrible decision maker) my current abilities.

[Cat Familiar]

If you were just beginning a relationship with someone who texted you messages like that, would you continue the relationship?

[UBPDHelp]

If you were just beginning a relationship with someone who texted you messages like that, would you continue the relationship?

Hi Cat,

Nope. It sux that things were in the normal realm for so long that when this behavior escalated I have tried so long (too long) trying to fix, and now understand.

Nope, nope, nope.

I admire all you succinct people...thank you!

[formflier]

I have tried so long (too long) trying to fix

Can you create a brief summary of what you have tried to do in order to fix this?

Did any of the methods show promise?

Did any of the methods appear to make it worse?

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Can you create a brief summary of what you have tried to do in order to fix this?

Did any of the methods show promise?

Did any of the methods appear to make it worse?

Best,

FF

Sure. But in return, I ask you to answer my questions at the bottom...

Years of pleading to see that the family was worth it and to please stop.  The rage and/or rage texts were more infrequent.

Temporary cessation of BIG behaviors. No actual change.

Everyday annoyances, comments, manipulations continued. I mistook them as minor personality traits/flaws...until I saw them snowball and become more insidious.


Last year started with requests to please value the family and our long history, which he now characterized as all bad, never happy.

Again, temporary cessation, less time in between.

In the last year, total escalation cycling every few weeks, to every week to every few days.   Still tried to get him to see. Didn’t work.

At this time I was dealing with my father having dementia and cancer and dying. Four kids at various stages in life, some incredibly important.

So, yes, definitely not best approach with H.

But, I would argue none of it should be needed, at least to this degree. Or, maybe I’m not willing to be in a relationship that continually emotionally abuses me and requires this much effort to exist. He can have that relationship, just not with me.

Implemented boundaries. Improvement. Stated some requests. Some temporary improvement.

Idk...I feel like this is way MORE effort than even most incredibly challenging relationships. Or maybe I’m just tired of it and I want a chance to be happy and have peace.

I made vows. That’s hard. But I would argue that I made a vow to God to protect my being and those of my children.

And what about his vows — to love, to honor, to respect?  At this point aren’t I holding onto vows that never really existed...at least on his part?

So, FF, do you honestly believe I should allow myself to be verbally and emotionally abused? Occasionally physically, not to person, but to things?

Do you believe the best boundaries and best communication makes this SUSTAINABLY better?

I’m not a risk taker. I’ve already gambled 25 years...do I want to gamble whatever I have left?

What would FF do?

[formflier]

What would FF do?

In the off chance you don't believe I've answered or fully answered your questions, please point out where I've fallen short..that will help me connect the dots.

Here is my "process" (I'm a process guy)

Start with principles...if you get the principles right, most questions answer themselves.  ( read that a couple times)

KISS and BLUF  (military terms but applicable)

Keep It Simple Stupid  (clarity..not suggesting anyone else is stupid, but apply this to myself since it's stupid to needlessly complicate things)  So from that if simple will do, you (I) better have a well thought out reason to complicate something.

Bottom Line Up Front (this helps keep things succinct)  This is helpful in communicating to yourself (myself) and to others.  Rather than a long winded explanation and then saying "therefore...I'm not going to listen to (fill in the blank)" many times its better to just say "I don't do abuse.." 

Then be sure to evaluate the past and compare that to your initial reaction of what to do now.  If what you intend to do matches old stuff...and if old stuff didn't "work", then you are making a mental list of "This is what is NOT going to happen"

Again, many times that leaves only one or two options, which clarifies things greatly.

By this time...for me,  the answer is obvious.  However, this is my process.

I would challenge you to be introspective and share your process. 

More answers coming.

Best,

FF