I moved out... now kids won't talk to me.

[Jonthan]

This is a nightmare.  I've been living in the garage for most of the past 10 years while my BPD wife attempts to control everything.  The piece that hurts most is her disparaging me to my children, and pressing them into either/or decisions in siding with her on things. 

After failed attempts at basic boundaries, and relationships with my children that continue to get worse, I recently moved out and announced to my wife that I can't stay married.  Last night, before hanging up on me, my 12-year-old daughter told me she doesn't want me as her dad anymore.  That after weeks of refusing to talk to me.  The pain.  I can hardly sleep.

Where do I find strength to move forward productively?  On one hand, I think my daughter needs to see me care enough to fight for her.  On the other hand, I worry that escalating the tug-o-war would only increase the damage to her and her brothers.  My inclination is sadly to let go and patiently hope circumstances change at some point in the future.  Do you have perspective that might help?

[Panda39]

After failed attempts at basic boundaries, and relationships with my children that continue to get worse, I recently moved out and announced to my wife that I can't stay married.  Last night, before hanging up on me, my 12-year-old daughter told me she doesn't want me as her dad anymore.  That after weeks of refusing to talk to me.  The pain.  I can hardly sleep.

I'm so sorry this is happening to you  I know it's extremely painful.

It could be that she is struggling with her parents splitting up, divorce is not an easy thing for anyone.  Here is a link to more on kids and divorce that might be helpful...

ARTICLE: Typical Reactions of Children to Divorce

Much of children's post-divorce adjustment is dependent on (1) the quality of their relationship with each parent before the divorce, (2) the intensity and duration of the parental conflict, and (3) the parents' ability to focus on the needs of the children in the divorce. Typically, children whose parents are going through a rough divorce engage in behaviors which are designed to help them feel secure. Read more.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=271677.msg12577885#msg12577885

What was your relationship like with your daughter before you left?  Often children of BPD parents can be come enmeshed with the BPD parent, sometimes there is parental alienation going on, people with BPD often think in black and white terms, so mom may imply that your daughter has to choose side...if you aren't with me then your against me kinds of stuff instead of seeing she can love both parents.

On the other hand, I worry that escalating the tug-o-war would only increase the damage to her and her brothers. 

My question here is, what kind of damage will it cause your children to not have their dad in there life?  To live 24/7 with a mentally ill mother? To not have your influence in their life?  What would it do to them if you abandoned them?  Your daughter may not want to talk to you in this moment, but that doesn't mean she won't change her mind. 

I would reach out to some lawyers (do some consultations) and find out what your rights are and get a custody order in place so you have some legal leverage regarding custody/visitation.  I would also continue to reachout to your daughter even if she continues to reject you.  Let her know that you love her and want to see her and take any opportunity to see all of your kids that you can.

My Partner experienced Parential Alienation during his separation.  One of lucky things in his situation was his uBPDxw didn't drive, so if the kids wanted to go anywhere dad drove...they were forced to spend time with him.  To me the more time you can spend together the better, it reminds the kids that you are still their dad.

So this Panda's advice is fight for your kids.

Panda39

[ForeverDad]

What you've been facing for so many years is what many new members lament when they arrive here.  One thought I'll comment on... "If I proceed with divorce my child won't talk to me."

Well, the sad reality is that your child/children already doesn't have a good relationship with you, right?  So how could divorce resolve at least some of your concerns?  Actually, in several ways.  Divorce, as disastrous a prospect as it has felt for years, can fix at least some of your current problems.

As a first step, domestic (or family) court will issue a temporary custody and parenting schedule order.  Odds are the court will default to putting the mother in charge but actually this is where you try to get the best order possible because our BPD divorces can take a year or two.  If you can get a good (or "less bad") temp order then that will ensure you do have parenting time with your daughter away from child's mother's disparaging influence.  (Be aware, your spouse will try to paint you as evil or abusive, so be as angelic as possible and defend yourself vigorously with experienced counselor and proactive lawyer.  Our peer support is excellent to provide strategies and what usually happens.)

Probably by the time the divorce is final your daughter will be an adult and can make her own choices anyway.  But the younger children still need the court's protection of their parenting time with you.  When you do get substantial dad-only parenting time then you will be able to provide a different, calm and stable home during your time together.  Sadly, your example in recent years seems to be that you've not stood up for yourself or your children.

Do you want to know what our collective experience has been?  When the poor behaviors are so bad and intense, divorcing is better than not divorcing.  Divorcing lets the court step in and set basic rules that surely are better than your spouse's unilateral rules and disparaging.

My story... I was in and out of family court for several years.  The unrelenting disparagement was finally officially exposed (repeated at least 6 times in our last court decision) and that was the last time we were in court.  Six years later my son is now an adult, the court order has been aged out and the conflict is muted, I just have to be careful not to trigger her sensitive issues.

[livednlearned]

Oof. That is beyond painful.

What was your relationship with D12 like before divorce was announced?

Have you already spoken to a lawyer and filed?

Mom is probably projecting feelings of abandonment onto D12 

Are there other kids?

When D12 says she doesn't want to see you, how do you respond?

[Jonthan]

D12 has a 14 year old brother and two younger brothers age 6 and 4.  My daughter has always been the one I felt closest to.  I thought we had a special bond.  But, at some point, things started getting unbearably dangerous with her mother--the most obvious indication exactly two years ago when my wife accusingly texted me a picture of a bruse on my oldest son's arm. 

This weekend, my wife took the kids out of town to see a fried a full day's drive away.  So, I came back to the main house... to take care of pets and maybe clean up some of my things... Anyway, I snooped and found my daughter's journal.  I'm conflicted about having done so, but she's 12, I'm her father, and I'm terribly worried about her.  The things she's written there in a dozen or so posts over the past year and a half terrify me.  She says things like no one would notice if she died... and that she's had a preminition that she will at an early age.  She blames her dad for the figting with mom, and for being mean to her mom.  She has a lot of feelings that she's worked really hard to hide from the world.  She feels alone and misses school.

On one hand, I'm realing, scheming for some way to believe this marriage can be preserved... for my daughter, let this marriage stay intact.  On the other hand, I'm wondering if things would have been better by now had I left her mother two years ago.  The scariest thing now is that my older two kids (D12, and S14) are getting old enough to entirely refuse time with me... and have already declared their intention in doing so.  My daughter could not have done that at age 10.  I guess I thought I could strengthen our relationship further to better prepare them first... or somehow actually repair the marriage.

I feel confused and conflicted... which makes decisive action in any particular direction difficult.  Please God, however difficult the path, help me to at least know it's the right path. 

[yeeter]

Is it possible to get your children their own counselor?

If not formally, other family, or a close family friend or pastor or teacher/mentor for them to talk to and spend time with?

At a minimum encourage them to spend as much time as possible with friends and other normal people.  Reach out to their friends parents and setup play dates as much as possible.

It might be a way to help them establish some grounding on what is otherwise a very confusing, unclear world to them.  The more outside influence they can get the better.  They need to see a more normal world in some way.

[livednlearned]

I feel confused and conflicted... which makes decisive action in any particular direction difficult

I would've read her journal too. I did something similar with my SD23, read messages she was sending to her mom on her laptop. My therapist when I told her said, Good, now you have helpful information to work with. It helped a lot to dispel any guilt.

Have you read any of the materials recommended by people here, like Divorce Poison by Richard Warshak, Don't Alienate the Kids by Bill Eddy (who also wrote Splitting: Protecting Yourself When Divorcing a BPD/NPD Spouse), or anything by Dr. Craig Childress?

Those books and author probably constitute essential reading for anyone who has kids with a BPD spouse. I also recommend learning about validation (Power of Validation for Parents is excellent, and so is I Don't Have to Make Everything All Better by the Lundstroms).

How much communication do you have with D12? Maybe we can help brainstorm ways to respond to her -- she may need some intense validation and there are specific skills for that.

[Jonthan]

Is it possible to get your children their own counselor?  If not formally, other family, or a close family friend or pastor or teacher/mentor for them to talk to and spend time with?  At a minimum encourage them to spend as much time as possible with friends and other normal people.  Reach out to their friends parents and setup play dates as much as possible.

The counseling my older two children (and my wife) have been getting is from my wife's parents.  They entirely believe I'm abusive, actively try to play rescuer, and have for years refused any functional communication with me.  Their perspective is somewhat understandable considering how my wife talks about me, and the fact that she's obviously disturbed... and then there's the reality of the rough edges I do in fact have.  Still, their efforts to help have not been helpful.  

As far as other outside relationships and influences, my wife seems to destroy and/or controls most relationships.  I don't have a clear avenue to the parents of my kids' friends... but perhaps I'll try anyway.

Have you read any of the materials recommended by people here, like Divorce Poison by Richard Warshak, Don't Alienate the Kids by Bill Eddy (who also wrote Splitting: Protecting Yourself When Divorcing a BPD/NPD Spouse), or anything by Dr. Craig Childress?
...
I also recommend learning about validation (Power of Validation for Parents is excellent, and so is I Don't Have to Make Everything All Better by the Lundstroms).

Bill Eddy's Splitting should arrive today in the mail.  I have read some other references not those you just mentioned.  I know I very much need to improve my own skills in validating feelings.  I'm not incompetent, but more skill is needed.

Breathe deep.  One careful step at a time.

[ForeverDad]

Have you reached out to the school counselors?  At least you can determine whether they can manage not to take sides and just focus on the kids keeping as much objectivity as possible.

If/when you decide to proceed with a divorce, then one of your motions to court would be to request an in-depth Custody Evaluation, just be very sure you get a very reputable evaluator well respected by the court and not one inexperienced, gullible or biased toward mothers.

[mart555]

The counseling my older two children (and my wife) have been getting is from my wife's parents.  

That's not counseling that's brainwashing...    FWIW, don't give up. My son who was 10 at the time had suicidal thoughts and blamed me for the divorce and what happened to his mom (she went insane, psych ward, suicide threats in front of the kids, ...).  He finally accepted it after a few months and now realises that his mom has issues.

It takes a long time to get them to talk and open up. I had it "easy" because they stayed with me.  I don't know how I would have fared if he was brainwashed by his mom every night. 

There's a solution. Don't give up.